The Man with Boobs Trope

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I keep hearing this criticism, but I don't understand it, or rather, don't understand the negativity towards it. The "Man with Boobs" trope, as I understand so far, is the criticism that by making action girls, female characters who do running, jumping, shooting, punching, kicking, etc., is de-emphasizing the woman's feminine traits and instead replacing their positive values with traditionally held as masculine. For example, FemShep from Mass Effect or Sargent Calhoun from Wreck-it Ralph or Samantha Burns from Gears of War 3 (which to be honest, I haven't played).

But where this confuses me is how it's necessarily a bad thing. If for the sake of argument I agree that emphasis on physical activity and violence is inherently or held as masculine instead of gender-neutral, I don't necessarily understand why it's a bad thing. I thought the breaking of traditional gender roles that associated "male = strong" and "female = weak" was a good thing to be had. If I did focus a little harder on this subject, I guess the argument could be made that associating feminine traits with weakness is bad, but I don't understand where's the harm with making a girl being one of the boys is a bad thing. I think it's also harder in a genre such as action or adventure or fighting to disassociate since in those genres fighting is the positively-held value, if only for visual merit.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts?

"Oh for crying out loud, you've succeeded it making me simply not care about anything other than what's fun to me as far as the entertainment industry is concerned."

Oh and by the way, I totally love a refined and elegant female character who also kicks ass.

When was the last time you actually heard this criticism?

I keep hearing about criticism of criticism without actually hearing any criticism in the first place.

Anyway, I don't particularly give much of a fuck about the `Man with Boobs` thing, because I'm pretty sure if you described my personality and hobbies to a third party without mentioning my gender, they would think I was a boy. And I'm kinda fine with that.

Though it's legit if they're talking about a female character just being pasted over the male one (i.e. Femshep's Bro-walk).

Phasmal:
When was the last time you actually heard this criticism?

I keep hearing about criticism of criticism without actually hearing any criticism in the first place.

Anyway, I don't particularly give much of a fuck about the `Man with Boobs` thing, because I'm pretty sure if you described my personality and hobbies to a third party without mentioning my gender, they would think I was a boy. And I'm kinda fine with that.

Though it's legit if they're talking about a female character just being pasted over the male one (i.e. Femshep's Bro-walk).

Kind of have to agree with Phasmal on this one. When was the last time you actually heard someone criticize a character this way? Because the only person I've ever even hear use this term is Anita. And if that's where you're getting this from, I'm pretty baffled that we still care so much about what she thinks.

I don't recall seeing a lot of complaints about this trope as a whole it's not bad by itself. It can some times come off as lazy. That the people writing/designing the character didn't put enough effort into the female version for them to really look female. Like how femshep uses male shep's animations and doesn't know how to sit in a skirt. Then the fact that it's never men who are made from female bases and animations more just goes to highlight the big problem.

Then on the other hand. I have mused that femshep using male shep's animations gives her a little bit of character that male shep doesn't have. She is a woman who sits like a man. She kind of goes counter to what you might expect from a woman. It gives her a little big of accidental characterization.

Now on my other other had. (My third hand.) If you went into a game with a female character expecting them to be female and found that they used the same walk animation as the guy character, you might feel cheated by that. Like your choice of gender didn't warrant the creation if a proper walk animation. You never see male characters with female walk animations because the game was to didn't want to give them their own animation.

So sum up. Kind of highlights the bigger problem, but I don't think it's the worst trope in the gender dynamics index. It's better to have men with boobs then no women at all.

Edit: Is it just me or dose the term man with boobs sound a little offensive?

nomotog:
I don't recall seeing a lot of complaints about this trope as a whole it's not bad by itself. It can some times come off as lazy. That the people writing/designing the character didn't put enough effort into the female version for them to really look female. Like how femshep uses male shep's animations and doesn't know how to sit in a skirt. Then the fact that it's never men who are made from female bases and animations more just goes to highlight the big problem.

Then on the other hand. I have mused that femshep using male shep's animations gives her a little bit of character that male shep doesn't have. She is a woman who sits like a man. She kind of goes counter to what you might expect from a woman. It gives her a little big of accidental characterization.

Now on my other other had. (My third hand.) If you went into a game with a female character expecting them to be female and found that they used the same walk animation as the guy character, you might feel cheated by that. Like your choice of gender didn't warrant the creation if a proper walk animation. You never see male characters with female walk animations because the game was to didn't want to give them their own animation.

So sum up. Kind of highlights the bigger problem, but I don't think it's the worst trope in the gender dynamics index. It's better to have men with boobs then no women at all.

Edit: Is it just me or dose the term man with boobs sound a little offensive?

I feel like I'd be ok with a female character sitting and walking like a man if all the other female characters didn't do the same. It'd feel like a character trait and stick out more if she did. Then again, you have a point in that it makes the gender select feel a bit invalid. It makes me wish more game devs took the Saints Row 2 route. There are actually several different walking and running animations in that game. You want to make a man walk in a feminine manner or a woman run in a masculine manner? Knock your socks off! I wish more games did that. Sunset overdrive seems to have that mindset going on with all the clothing being wearable by men and women, but somehow I doubt that they'd have customizable walk animations.

erttheking:

nomotog:
I don't recall seeing a lot of complaints about this trope as a whole it's not bad by itself. It can some times come off as lazy. That the people writing/designing the character didn't put enough effort into the female version for them to really look female. Like how femshep uses male shep's animations and doesn't know how to sit in a skirt. Then the fact that it's never men who are made from female bases and animations more just goes to highlight the big problem.

Then on the other hand. I have mused that femshep using male shep's animations gives her a little bit of character that male shep doesn't have. She is a woman who sits like a man. She kind of goes counter to what you might expect from a woman. It gives her a little big of accidental characterization.

Now on my other other had. (My third hand.) If you went into a game with a female character expecting them to be female and found that they used the same walk animation as the guy character, you might feel cheated by that. Like your choice of gender didn't warrant the creation if a proper walk animation. You never see male characters with female walk animations because the game was to didn't want to give them their own animation.

So sum up. Kind of highlights the bigger problem, but I don't think it's the worst trope in the gender dynamics index. It's better to have men with boobs then no women at all.

Edit: Is it just me or dose the term man with boobs sound a little offensive?

I feel like I'd be ok with a female character sitting and walking like a man if all the other female characters didn't do the same. It'd feel like a character trait and stick out more if she did. Then again, you have a point in that it makes the gender select feel a bit invalid. It makes me wish more game devs took the Saints Row 2 route. There are actually several different walking and running animations in that game. You want to make a man walk in a feminine manner or a woman run in a masculine manner? Knock your socks off! I wish more games did that. Sunset overdrive seems to have that mindset going on with all the clothing being wearable by men and women, but somehow I doubt that they'd have customizable walk animations.

I always wish more games would go the saints row 2 route. I just love the customization in that game. It sex slider, not a toggle, a slider. No other game has that. Though there is something to note about the walk animations. They were only walk animations not full animation sets. The game had two sets run animations male and females, but a bug would cause you to default to the male one. (I think on loading, but I don't recall exactly what triggered it.)

Maybe sunset overdrive will have multiple movement sets. We still don't know a lot about it. They do have a thing about customization and movement, so who knows.

Well like the others have said, I haven't actually heard this argument made by anyone. That said, if I had to take a tab at the rationale behind it, I'd assume that it'd be the implication that femininity is a negative trait, one that has to be ignored or abandoned to be a strong female character. Femshep could be an example, Alyx Vance perhaps being a counter to it.

But, like I said, I've never heard anyone actually make this argument. Usually I just see people use it to complain about feminists and how they're "never satisfied".

I actually agreed with MovieBob on Sgt. Calhoun from Wreck-It Ralph. She was tough as nails, but still decidedely female. I felt in that case, they made it play out as ''she's a lady, just deal with it''. That typically is a good approach to writing those kinds of characters. For other characters who got this right, look at Alyx Vance, Mako Mori, early incarnations of Samus, all of the Beifongs, and more recently, Lucy and Maleficient.

Mcoffey:
But, like I said, I've never heard anyone actually make this argument. Usually I just see people use it to complain about feminists and how they're "never satisfied".

You are totally right on this. The people who are complainnig about these kinds of characters are all extreme feminists, and I stopped taking them seriously a long time ago. And so did a lot of people, for that matter. Righfully so. But I think the issue is not that they make female characters overly manly, the issue is just bad writing in general. Like I said, there are plenty of good examples of the tough girl, and their numbers are gradually increasing. Let's take Pacific Rim as an example. Mako Mori is probably one of the best characters in that movie, and it flows completely naturally with the rest of the story. Her presence feels organic, and not forced so they can have a female character in a typically male-dominated part of society. Same goes for every character I just listed and plenty more.

That is the core of the problem. Not that we inherently associate male=good and female=bad, but that a lot of incarnations of the tough girl archetype feel very forced. My advice? Don't change the archetype, change the writing they come with.

Mcoffey:
Well like the others have said, I haven't actually heard this argument made by anyone. That said, if I had to take a tab at the rationale behind it, I'd assume that it'd be the implication that femininity is a negative trait, one that has to be ignored or abandoned to be a strong female character. Femshep could be an example, Alyx Vance perhaps being a counter to it.

But, like I said, I've never heard anyone actually make this argument. Usually I just see people use it to complain about feminists and how they're "never satisfied".

I can say I have heard the argument made, several times. I can't remember when or where, I am in a lot of internet places. But I have seen it. It might even have been on Escapist a handful of times.

So you can either accept that my experiences are different from yours, or call me a liar I suppose.

Okay, developers not making unique animations for females is NOT the point of this supposed trope. The point is that developers are taking female characters and giving them traditionally masculine roles. No feminist worth a grain of salt actually believes that bs. The idea of the trope is actively reinforcing gender roles, which you know, actual feminists don't like.

The problem with this trope is if she is more an ideal woman seen through a male lense than an actual character.

Or lazy writing where 'female' is the extent of character.

In the previous case she is just 'one of the guys' but one who is hot and sexualized and will have sex with you. And has no life out of men, no female friends for example.

In the latter you have different characters, and her only defining characteristic is that she's a woman.

Both are bad writing.

It depends on your society, but think how being a female affects her, and how this comes across in the world.
For example, if you claim that they live in a futuristic society where men and women are just treated the same, make sure they are. And for example don't make the female uniform sexualized (if the male one isn't), or have both male and female strippers if you put them in the setting etc.

If you create a world, or depict a world where women are not treated the same, why would she simply be the same as a male character?
If she is the only woman in the cast (of a crew on a ship for example), that says something about the world, and you should either actually acknowledge it, or not write the story like that in the first place.

Vegosiux:

Mcoffey:
Well like the others have said, I haven't actually heard this argument made by anyone. That said, if I had to take a tab at the rationale behind it, I'd assume that it'd be the implication that femininity is a negative trait, one that has to be ignored or abandoned to be a strong female character. Femshep could be an example, Alyx Vance perhaps being a counter to it.

But, like I said, I've never heard anyone actually make this argument. Usually I just see people use it to complain about feminists and how they're "never satisfied".

I can say I have heard the argument made, several times. I can't remember when or where, I am in a lot of internet places. But I have seen it. It might even have been on Escapist a handful of times.

So you can either accept that my experiences are different from yours, or call me a liar I suppose.

If there's one thing you can take away from the internet it's that most people on it are full of shit. You may be that beautiful exception to the rule, but isn't it make more sense to assume you aren't until proven otherwise, wouldn't you say?

You don't owe me any proof of course, but I also don't have to believe you either.

Henkie36:

Mcoffey:
But, like I said, I've never heard anyone actually make this argument. Usually I just see people use it to complain about feminists and how they're "never satisfied".

You are totally right on this. The people who are complainnig about these kinds of characters are all extreme feminists, and I stopped taking them seriously a long time ago. And so did a lot of people, for that matter. Righfully so.

Besides that, I actually pretty much completely agree with you.

Why do we need to make these traits gender specific when they're obviously not? These boundaries have been falling apart for a long time but the language hasn't kept up.

I just don't see the words 'masculine' and 'feminine' being relevant anymore except for people still holding onto dead ideas. We're equals and we can be what we want to be in life, that's all I give a shit about.

Mcoffey:

Vegosiux:

Mcoffey:
Well like the others have said, I haven't actually heard this argument made by anyone. That said, if I had to take a tab at the rationale behind it, I'd assume that it'd be the implication that femininity is a negative trait, one that has to be ignored or abandoned to be a strong female character. Femshep could be an example, Alyx Vance perhaps being a counter to it.

But, like I said, I've never heard anyone actually make this argument. Usually I just see people use it to complain about feminists and how they're "never satisfied".

I can say I have heard the argument made, several times. I can't remember when or where, I am in a lot of internet places. But I have seen it. It might even have been on Escapist a handful of times.

So you can either accept that my experiences are different from yours, or call me a liar I suppose.

If there's one thing you can take away from the internet it's that most people on it are full of shit. You may be that beautiful exception to the rule, but isn't it make more sense to assume you aren't until proven otherwise, wouldn't you say?

Sure thing. But then don't be offended if I reverse that assumption back at you. Just remember, if you say that something never happens, all I have to do is provide one (1) example to prove you're "full of shit".

So, do you actually want to argue an absolute negative?

Sometimes I just want to knit the bad guys away. I mean, punching and shooting may be easy, but I just know if I took up pastry making that I'd finally beat that boss. [/joke]

Joking aside, what sort of feminine traits would people replace these actions with instead? How would that not serve to just further gender role casting?

Vegosiux:

Mcoffey:

Vegosiux:

I can say I have heard the argument made, several times. I can't remember when or where, I am in a lot of internet places. But I have seen it. It might even have been on Escapist a handful of times.

So you can either accept that my experiences are different from yours, or call me a liar I suppose.

If there's one thing you can take away from the internet it's that most people on it are full of shit. You may be that beautiful exception to the rule, but isn't it make more sense to assume you aren't until proven otherwise, wouldn't you say?

Sure thing. But then don't be offended if I reverse that assumption back at you. Just remember, if you say that something never happens, all I have to do is provide one (1) example to prove you're "full of shit".

So, do you actually want to argue an absolute negative?

Sure, but I don't recall ever using an absolute negative. I said I've personally never seen it the argument used, and typically only seen it referenced by people looking to bash feminists.

I don't see why writing a female character the same way you write a male one except they just happen to be female would be a problem. For a lot of characters (and people in the real world) their sex isn't a very defining aspect of them. You can write a character in gender-neutral fashion and then stick whatever gender you want on them, an example of this would be the film Alien. You can do the same thing with race, sexuality, gender, whatever. A character being female, gay, trans* or black doesn't have to be any more important than them being male, straight, cisgendered or white.

Phasmal:
When was the last time you actually heard this criticism?

I keep hearing about criticism of criticism without actually hearing any criticism in the first place.

I'm not sure I've ever heard it uttered except when someone was complaining about it existing.

There's sort of a larger trend out there that everything feminine is still bad and the only way to make girls good is to make them like they boys, because boys things are good and girls things have cooties or whatever, but that's not really this "trope."

It makes me curious, though, where the examples are. Was Lara Croft a "dude with tits?" Samus? Bayonetta? I'm quickly running out of titular characters who are women an action-y, so I'll leave it there.

Henkie36:

You are totally right on this. The people who are complainnig about these kinds of characters are all extreme feminists, and I stopped taking them seriously a long time ago.

McCoffey already explained that you got it backwards, but I'd like to see some of these extreme feminists.

Lieju:
or have both male and female strippers if you put them in the setting etc.

Male strippers? We can't even have a straight female protagonist kiss a dude without "Alienating men." How is that one gonna fly?

Outside of say, a Saints Row game. Because I could totally see Volition doing it.

We're not talking about Bob from Fight Club? Oh. Awwww.

I thought that "Men With Boobs" was a bit of an end-goal. Obviously, it would be better if activities didn't instantly cause assumptions of gender, but hey, small steps.

brtt150:
Okay, developers not making unique animations for females is NOT the point of this supposed trope. The point is that developers are taking female characters and giving them traditionally masculine roles. No feminist worth a grain of salt actually believes that bs. The idea of the trope is actively reinforcing gender roles, which you know, actual feminists don't like.

Oh. See I always thought the trope was for female characters that ever have their gender taken into account when being made so they come off like men in a female skin. Like the name man with boobs. I use a video game example because it's just kind of easy to spot in games.

If it's just women doing adopting male roles, that is kind of a different thing. It's still not a problem by itself in fact it's a good thing, but it dose server to highlight a different problem when you look at how manly women are often seen as better for not having feminine traits. It's kind of like we want our men to be men and our women to be also men to. Femininity gets kind of undervalued.

(Now I feel kind of unsure because this is actually a thing I kind of noticed way back in middle school and middle school me was kind of stupid.)

(You know I looked this trope up to see what Google says and most of the examples were about Gynecomastia. This is not a commonly talked about trope.)

Off topic, but when I read Man with Boobs I thought of only one thing.

His name was Robert Paulson. His name was Robert Paulson. His name was Robert Paulson. His name was Robert Paulson. His name was Robert Paulson. His name was Robert Paulson. His name was Robert Paulson.

Zachary Amaranth:

Henkie36:

You are totally right on this. The people who are complainnig about these kinds of characters are all extreme feminists, and I stopped taking them seriously a long time ago.

McCoffey already explained that you got it backwards, but I'd like to see some of these extreme feminists.

I have seen it on a feminist article somewhere...
Although it was in the meaning of making a sexist setting and then pretending it wasn't sexist when putting in a female character.
Rather than just criticism on tough female characters.

My only thought is this: breaking traditional gender stereotypes is not "good." It is not "bad." It might be sought after by some people, and they might have good reasons. But it is neither good nor bad. Because the stereotypes that are being broken are "traditional," one might find it "refreshing." But claiming it to be "good" or "bad" is just setting yourself up for an argument from multiple directions.

The only time I've seen that phrase or something similar used as a criticism is a passing mention in an Anita Sarkeesian video, accompanied with an image of Kara Thrace ('Starbuck') from Battlestar Galactica.

I might have seen it used once or twice as a criticism of Mass Effect. ("Femshep shouldn't count as a female character/protagonist since she's exactly the same as dudeshep, just a different character model and voice".)

I'm honestly never sure what to make of it. It's often viewed as a by-product of men writing female character and making them, either intentionally or otherwise, pleasing to themselves and other men. So you end up with either a 'perfect girlfriend' character or an idealised male who just happens to actually be female. Or possibly a lesbian.

(Funnily enough, I've heard the inverse said of males in female-focussed media. "They're just like chicks except with dicks.")

I'm not really sure how one avoids that sort of thing when making an aggressive, physically adept or combative female character Those are things traditionally associated with males. I mean, I'm a guy and if I were to trying writing (which I occasionally do) and were to include such a character (which I also do) then I can totally see her turning out like that.

I'd be curious to hear examples of it being done right and done wrong for the purposes of contrast.

If it seems like I'm rambling here it's because I totally am. I don't really have any well-formed thoughts on the matter.

I imagine this is like that thing where a girl is totally a bro and does guy stuff because isn't that what guys want? A person who is totally cool and your friend and into the same things and also its ok to have sex with them?

It's a small line, but I can see there is a difference between a female who has traits that are more assumed with masculinity (gruff seriousness, tough exterior, ect) and a female who is just a really a dude because your writer(s)don't really know how to write a personality that isn't immersed in masculine stuff.

Other the the wish fulfillment fantasy I opened with, I don't think it's that harmful or anything. More lazy and careless probably. It might make some people think it's ok to write the shallow 1-dimensional character type we've all seen before, but it's a lady so it's now awesome and progressive.

And one thing I hate is people using good progressive ideas to peddle mediocre product.

Zachary Amaranth:

Henkie36:

You are totally right on this. The people who are complainnig about these kinds of characters are all extreme feminists, and I stopped taking them seriously a long time ago.

McCoffey already explained that you got it backwards, but I'd like to see some of these extreme feminists.

Anita Sarkeesian. She actually did complain about the men with boobs concept:

"Not only are these games dominated by male characters but even the few women characters who do get staring roles are often made to replicate overly patriarchal, violent, macho behavior (but inside of a hyper sexualized female body). Not surprisingly the vast majority of game producers, designers and writers in the industry are still men.

To put it simply, there are just too many dicks on the dance floor!"

Apparently a woman displaying certain traits is just the same as a man. (which is quite ironic considering afterwards she's trying to convince us men and women are the same... Oh the backpedaling)

Phasmal:
When was the last time you actually heard this criticism?

I have never once heard it leveled against an actual character. I have only heard it used in hypothetical situations, like when discussing the possibility of a female Link ("A female Link would just be male Link with boobs! So you're a hypocrite if you want one! Score one for me!").

Hark, to Google!

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12971205520A16140100&page=0

Few seconds of googling 'men with boobs' lead to a tvtropes discussion about it.

So it's not unheard of. That said, I think the idea of the trope is pretty much just people over-noticing that some of the better written female characters tend to be non-"lady-like". However, if it ever was an actual problem(which I don't believe), it's becoming increasingly less a thing as people put even more effort into writing diverse characters, especially female ones.

The problem is that our cultural norms dictate that men are superior to women, and by extension that male traits are superior to female ones.

This comes to a head in the man with boobs-trope in that, the only way for a female character to establish authority is to emulate those male traits, she's a strong female character, an example of a good human being only if she stops being a woman, if she embodies solely male traits. This character will often diminish any "real" women in the story and their traits and interests, which makes the man with boobs-trope highly problematic from a feminist perspective.

Burnouts3s3:
What are your thoughts?

I've occasionally noticed some of these examples in games, but I can't readily list any, nor how good or bad they were. This is a thing that's been bothering me for a long while and it mirrors some of what's happening in real life as well.
Some women are trying to become men, or their perception of men, at the workplace in order to fit in. Obviously they don't cut their hair short and paint on a beard, but they change their style and attitude in order to send different signals. Ironically, the best signal they could send would to be at ease.

I think this is more prevalent in the geek/gamer culture where a wave of women and girls are joining up and change their behaviour accordingly. It's not unique, this has happened in punk, rock and all sorts of other music fandoms. The difference is that the geek community has been almost exclusively male for a very long time, so there's more resistance and understandably so.

I agree with feminism that it happens, but in regards how widely it's spread and how important or detrimental it is, I couldn't disagree more with them.

This is really, really odd though, because why would so many women and girls feel the need to imitate men instead of finding their own pace?
It's sort of a leading question, because while you can explain some of it away with a lack of rolemodels, social constraints and male prevalence, I think it has more to do with a desperate need to belong - That's completely fine of course, the problem is when a sense of entitlement and selfvictimization goes along with it and spawns massive hostility.

Anyway, while I can't think of an example in games, I can remember a few in movies.
Aliens: Sigourney Weaver played a brilliant character with an attitude that didn't rely on having men doing things for her, but also didn't blame them when she needed their help. She displays classic feminine traits of motherhood and protective instinct for children without becoming a coddling motherhen that suddenly has no other responsibility or capability to deal with her surroundings.
On the other hand you have Vasquez which is a macho woman marine that fits the bill of a "man with boobs" to an almost comical degree. It's only when I think back on her now that she seems exaggerated, but at least she is still a believable character.

What amazes me though, is how normal all the people seem in this movie. You have people shitting their pants in fear, people taking charge, people following orders, people trying to help, people trying to double cross and so on.
It's all believable, they seem like normal people under strange and stressful circumstances.

Then you have something like The Walking Dead where gender is almost painfully divided and reduced to nearly base instincts in a way that has everyone facepalming at how infuriatingly irrational these people are behaving.

The point I'm trying to make, is that you should act however the fuck you want without constraint of what you think others want you to be. Otherwise.. well then you have shit characters like Black Widow from the Avengers movie, which is almost exclusively a pair of tits with gun skills. And some feminists applaud this two dimensional character for the sheer fact that she's not helpless!

--

This topic eventually had to sidetrack to feminism and I'm sorry for pulling it in that direction. As much as I utterly and completely despise feminism and honestly believe it to be a detrimental institution that strives for domination rather than equality, I believe that women in popculture have some serious issues and they need a kick in the right direction to request (not demand) characters that they would like to identify with.

So, tl;dr version:
1. "Men with boobs" is not a widely spread trope or cliché, but it is an indication of lack of better characters.
2. The trope is not necessarily bad, especially since it's subjective.
3. The (my) basic theory is that both men and women, but especially women, are way too socially dependant on social media portrayal and what others think of them, thereby losing their gender identity and caught in a futile attempt to define themselves.

generals3:

Zachary Amaranth:

Henkie36:

You are totally right on this. The people who are complainnig about these kinds of characters are all extreme feminists, and I stopped taking them seriously a long time ago.

McCoffey already explained that you got it backwards, but I'd like to see some of these extreme feminists.

Anita Sarkeesian. She actually did complain about the men with boobs concept:

"Not only are these games dominated by male characters but even the few women characters who do get staring roles are often made to replicate overly patriarchal, violent, macho behavior (but inside of a hyper sexualized female body). Not surprisingly the vast majority of game producers, designers and writers in the industry are still men.

To put it simply, there are just too many dicks on the dance floor!"

Apparently a woman displaying certain traits is just the same as a man. (which is quite ironic considering afterwards she's trying to convince us men and women are the same... Oh the backpedaling)

Way to water down nuanced topics together to fit your point.

She's referring to that thing I was saying. The inability to write something that isn't masculine violent hargle barglea and slapping a women skin on it and pretending that makes it better than the man skin. It's lazy and it's not as inclusive as one might think.

Supdupadog:

Way to water down nuanced topics together to fit your point.

She's referring to that thing I was saying. The inability to write something that isn't masculine violent hargle barglea and slapping a women skin on it and pretending that makes it better than the man skin. It's lazy and it's not as inclusive as one might think.

So "To put it simply, there are just too many dicks on the dance floor!" was just a brainfart? Nono, it's quite simply a complaint about the men with tits concept. Well actually it's that mixed with a general complaint about the violence-centric mechanics of many games.

And your last phrase pretty much confirms what i said. It is only not as inclusive if we're relating this to the "men with tits" complaint. If "men with tits" wasn't an issue than it would be quite inclusive. At least on a "genital on the dancefloor" level.

generals3:

Supdupadog:

Way to water down nuanced topics together to fit your point.

She's referring to that thing I was saying. The inability to write something that isn't masculine violent hargle barglea and slapping a women skin on it and pretending that makes it better than the man skin. It's lazy and it's not as inclusive as one might think.

So "To put it simply, there are just too many dicks on the dance floor!" was just a brainfart? Nono, it's quite simply a complaint about the men with tits concept. Well actually it's that mixed with a general complaint about the violence-centric mechanics of many games.

And your last phrase pretty much confirms what i said. It is only not as inclusive if we're relating this to the "men with tits" complaint. If "men with tits" wasn't an issue than it would be quite inclusive. At least on a "genital on the dancefloor" level.

I imagine if the societal constructs we have didn't exist then a lot of stuff would be more inclusive. Or maybe we wouldn't be having discussions like this at all.

It's a hard kind of society to imagine honestly.

generals3:

So "To put it simply, there are just too many dicks on the dance floor!" was just a brainfart? Nono, it's quite simply a complaint about the men with tits concept. Well actually it's that mixed with a general complaint about the violence-centric mechanics of many games.

Actually it's a Flight of the Concords reference mixed in with talking about how the people who are developing games are mainly male.

... It's a joke.

Feminists can make jokes, you know.

EDIT: Quote derp.

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