The Force Awakens question

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So am I the only one who still really loves that movie or am I just too blinded by nostalgia to think its really good? I mean I do acknowledge the similarities it utilizes in it (though I wouldn't call it a remake nor rehash).

Also I really like the score and find it underrated.

Natemans:
So am I the only one who still really loves that movie or am I just too blinded by nostalgia to think its really good? I mean I do acknowledge the similarities it utilizes in it (though I wouldn't call it a remake nor rehash).

Well, obviously it's a rhetorical question, but, no, you're not the only one who loves the movie. Every indication is that aside from griping, the movie was well received by the general public. It's got a high RT score, there's plenty of Force Awakens merchandise, the Star Wars section of ff.net exploded with "sequel trilogy"-categorized fics, etc. So, in general terms, I think it's fair to say that TFA was reasonably well received, and that for Average Joe, it did revitalize Star Wars.

Speaking personally, I give TFA a lot of slack, but looking at it more rationally, it's...fine. It's average. It's servicable. Of the nine Star Wars films I can rank, it comes in at #5, so, ergo, pretty much right in the middle. It does a lot of leaning on A New Hope, but in all fairness, it doesn't completely rehash it (it steals from Return of the Jedi too ;p). Rey is Mary Suish, but is a perfectly likable character. The film does introduce some new ideas to the franchise, such as the idea of the Dark Side operating through proxies (Sith>Empire>New Order), and does a good subversion of being "tempted by the Light Side of the Force"). Also, its directing style is quite good - Abrams does a good job of moving the camera in some scenes (e.g. the Millennium Falcon), and especially when Ren kills Han, how the light of the sun fully fades and the light stops being cast over his face when he kills his father.

There are some things I think are bad though - Poe's return to the Resistance is barely explained, the Resistance in of itself is just a rehash of the Rebellion (at least the First Order does have some distinguishment from the Empire), and even if it isn't a complete rehash, it does feel like a giant reset button - a Republic is formed, then destroyed, so, um, yay?). Also I'm not fond of the score either.

So, at the end of the day, TFA is...fine. Average. Servicable. Unnecessary. Reasonably enjoyable. Derivative, but has some sparks of inspiration. Well directed. Characters are likable enough. It's...fine.

So, ramble over, as you can guess, I'm not that fond of TFA - I never felt the need for an "Episode VII," and TFA itself didn't change my view on that. But, it's by no means a bad film. And anyone who genuinely likes it shouldn't be ashamed of doing so, nor berated for doing so.

I think it's really kind of hard to say.

Some people say it's a rehash of A New Hope. Personally, I never cared about a New Hope too much, so even though they are vaguely similar, it doesn#t bother me.

Some people, such as myself, think Rey is overpowered. But some people (also me) don't want to judge the film for that because this is a trilogy and we may stll get a entirely (in-universe) plausible reason for that.

And I don't really care about the score of a Movie unless it takes me out of the Movie, it not doing that wouldn't make it good though.

Also gonna say this: I don't find Rey a Mary Sue and kinda her flawed/interesting.

I didn't need an Episode VII either in my life, but somehow I still really loved it.

Pff, not by a long shot. Plenty of people still hold TFA high. Now, Rogue One could be the "controversial" enough pick to discuss that matter.

I can't agree with you on score, unfortunately. Rehashed plot elements, and fanservice bothered me to extent, but movie was good enough for me to see past it. But the soundtrack was almost entirely forgettable.

I tried watching it again last night. I got about half-way through, before I turned it off. More I see the movie, the more story elements and scenes from The New Hope I keep noticing. The Force Awakens is such a bland rip-off of the original Star Wars movie. It is easily the worst Star Wars movie ever. Yes, I would rather watch Jar Jar Binks than see Finn stumble around haplessly and killing his former colleague because "reasons".

Eh, not a great movie, and doesn't live up to the originals, but ok.

It was a'ight

I said it in a previous thread but it's very similar to the Marvel films; a whole lot of pretty colors and flashy lights with no real substance (hell, I had to look up my old review to remember half of the plot). It's a popcorn movie that doesn't take any real chances. A boringly perfect main character who does everything right (except when they do something wrong, in which case it was the perfect solution and makes everything right) with the same exact plot as the old films.

Now there's nothing wrong with that. I certainly enjoyed it enough and I don't regret seeing the movie but I'm not sure I'll ever watch it again the same way that I could pop in the original trilogy at about any time and be happy.

There are aspects of it I don't mind. I like Finn and Poe, Ren is basically fine, and the returning cast are all good. The problem is the attack of the 50 fifty foot Mary Sue that is Rey, who is neither written nor acted well. The film drains of fun whenever she's onscreen.

I still like it a lot, though I maintain that if it's a rehash of anything, then it's a rehash of Jedi.

Don't find Rey to be any more a Mary Sue than any other Star Wars protagonist, the story was nice, light, and pulpy, the fights had weight to them, and the Jedi-fake-out that was Finn was done really well.

Plus, it fulfilled a life-long wish of Harrison Ford's, so that's pretty cool.

I dig it. Its pretty alright, New Hope rehashes and non-sensical Super Weapon display aside.

I'm even cool with Rey. She got the mind trick fast but we also have no context for how hard that is to learn so like... idk. Not like she curbstomped Ren either.

Its pretty good. Valid flaws ofc but its significantly better directed than the prequels in a lot of ways so its not even bad star wars. So... I guess nah, OP? It's not just you.

Of course you aren't the only one, and everyone who likes it will like it for different reasons. Plus it made a killing even before came out and was probably seen by everbody. And even if the general consensus had changed, I'm sure there are a billion Star Wars fans who love it either way.

I can see the appeal, but I found it to be terrible in almost every aspect, and it being called "a remake for a new audience" is basically accepting mediocrity as the norm to me.

This critique only covers about half my problems with it.

Well no one I know IRL liked it, and my guys are like...stupid hardcore Star Wars fans.

And it really is just a rehash of A New Hope. Abrams shouldn't be allowed to make anything except WishBone episodes. Its simple, you're already doing someone else's story, and all you have to do it shoot scenes with a dog in a costume and then pretend its clever.
It'd be perfect for him!

I enjoyed it and feel it accomplished what it needed to do: get people excited about Star Wars again and show that Disney can handle the franchise.

That being said, I do feel like the final verdict for it is still hanging on The Last Jedi. The Force Awakens raises a lot of questions and doesn't bother to answer nearly all of them. Instead, it's more like, "Ha ha, you want to know that? Better stick around for the next movie!"
If we don't get some serious answers in The Last Jedi--who Rey really is, what are the Knights of Ren, etc.--then The Force Awakens is going to take some serious hits in my book. I don't expect to have all my questions answered, but I better get some answers.

eh, it was okay

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too safe to be really good

i enjoyed it as well.. good balance of remembering the old stories and forging new ground and introducing new characters

plus i have a soft spot for rey and bb8

I liked it a lot, despite the legitimate criticisms about how much it copies from New Hope, and also the badly written in superduper death star. Rey and Finn had a lot of charisma and a lot of reliability - things lacking in Rogue One.

I liked it. The people I went to see it with liked it. My Star Wars loving friends liked it, hell even some of my very much not star wars loving friends liked it. I actually know very few if anyone that actually dislikes it. It was exactly what it needed to be. I disagree on the score though, that was very disappointing.

Rogue One was also good, though I'm very very sceptical of the Han Solo "Origins" film. I just don't feel its needed. Ultimately The Last Jedi needs to deliver something new though to keep me interested.

I liked it...though Rogue One blew it out of the water. Best damn Star Wars movie I've seen in a LONG time. It might even be my #2 favorite Star Wars film after ESB.

TFA's strongest moments for me are most of the first act, where it focuses on the new main cast. Things kind of fall apart when Death Star 3.0 Less Retarded Sun Crusher Starkiller Base shows up, and the Rathtar scene was totally unnecessary (just like the Bor Gullet scene in Rogue One. Stop trying to put hentai monsters in my Star Wars, LucasFilm). I was also disappointed to see the same old X-Wings and Tie Fighters instead of different ship designs (Tie Defender is still canon...just sayin'), along with the lack of a decent space battle. That said, the final act is engaging enough to make up for these complaints.

And now, for the most nerdiest of nerdy nit-picks of TFA you've ever seen...
image

I also like to think that Kylo Ren's mask originally belonged to a "Disney canon" version of Darth Revan.
image

At the end of the day, I'm perfectly fine with TFA being a Star Wars film "for the masses." It was made to get the general public back on board with the franchise and re-familiarize themselves with the setting, as many of them probably haven't seen a Star Wars film in over a decade, if at all. Now that everyone's on the same page I'm hoping the rest of the sequel trilogy is confident enough to forge its own identity rather than living in the OT's shadow.

Neverhoodian:
I liked it...though Rogue One blew it out of the water. Best damn Star Wars movie I've seen in a LONG time. It might even be my #2 favorite Star Wars film after ESB.

TFA's strongest moments for me are most of the first act, where it focuses on the new main cast. Things kind of fall apart when Death Star 3.0 Less Retarded Sun Crusher Starkiller Base shows up, and the Rathtar scene was totally unnecessary (just like the Bor Gullet scene in Rogue One. Stop trying to put hentai monsters in my Star Wars, LucasFilm). I was also disappointed to see the same old X-Wings and Tie Fighters instead of different ship designs (Tie Defender is still canon...just sayin'), along with the lack of a decent space battle. That said, the final act is engaging enough to make up for these complaints.

And now, for the most nerdiest of nerdy nit-picks of TFA you've ever seen...
image

I also like to think that Kylo Ren's mask originally belonged to a "Disney canon" version of Darth Revan.
image

At the end of the day, I'm perfectly fine with TFA being a Star Wars film "for the masses." It was made to get the general public back on board with the franchise and re-familiarize themselves with the setting, as many of them probably haven't seen a Star Wars film in over a decade, if at all. Now that everyone's on the same page I'm hoping the rest of the sequel trilogy is confident enough to forge its own identity rather than living in the OT's shadow.

Rogue One is okay, but I don't think its as good as TFA. Really suffers from a cluttered first act and really weak characterization in places.

I didn't like it, here's why:

It's pointless. We don't really learn anything important about anyone. Abrahams is still a gifted technical director, but he has yet to get over his beloved Mystery Box, sacrificing important character details for artificial "mysteries" (he is not making a puzzle, he is withholding information).

Here's the actual problem with Rey: Her motivation is to get back to a boring desert planet, so she can passively wait on her parents, which none know anything about. Who wants to see that? The audience might want her to survive, but they can never root for her to succeed. I also never got why she want to be a jedi. It just happens.

It absolutely fails, the reason it fails isn't just because it's an inferior version of A New Hope, no, it's because of the characters.

Rey: FAR TOO POWERFUL. Seriously, she's already the most powerful force user despite pretty much knowing nothing about it. Contrast Luke who went
Finn: Initially likeable but the moment he escapes the First Order he has no problem killing.
BB8: I'm not really sure what BB8's character is, but it seems to be the closest thing to a sane character. BB8 gets a pass.

Then there's the Resistance, what are they even resisting? They're the dominant power. Then there's First Order, who are supposedly rebels, or a small rouge nation, somehow.

The new lore is also pretty dumb, when Disney threw out the expanded universe, they should have only thrown out the convoluted shit, not the good things. The basic premise of the old EU however is still actually good. The Empire fractures and each fragment of the Imperial Remnant is more powerful than the New Republic on it's own, but they also spend more time fighting each other. Eventually the Remnant will probably grind itself down into nothing but it's a galaxy-wide empire, it's going to take time (I don't know all that much about the EU, but I remember it distinctly being more realistic in terms of scale, mainly because in the new EU the Empire seems to have fallen muchfaster).

Dr. McD:
It absolutely fails, the reason it fails isn't just because it's an inferior version of A New Hope, no, it's because of the characters.

Rey: FAR TOO POWERFUL. Seriously, she's already the most powerful force user despite pretty much knowing nothing about it. Contrast Luke who went
Finn: Initially likeable but the moment he escapes the First Order he has no problem killing.
BB8: I'm not really sure what BB8's character is, but it seems to be the closest thing to a sane character. BB8 gets a pass.

Then there's the Resistance, what are they even resisting? They're the dominant power. Then there's First Order, who are supposedly rebels, or a small rouge nation, somehow.

The new lore is also pretty dumb, when Disney threw out the expanded universe, they should have only thrown out the convoluted shit, not the good things. The basic premise of the old EU however is still actually good. The Empire fractures and each fragment of the Imperial Remnant is more powerful than the New Republic on it's own, but they also spend more time fighting each other. Eventually the Remnant will probably grind itself down into nothing but it's a galaxy-wide empire, it's going to take time (I don't know all that much about the EU, but I remember it distinctly being more realistic in terms of scale, mainly because in the new EU the Empire seems to have fallen muchfaster).

In the old EU, the Galactic Civil War continued for another fifteen years after the events of Return of the Jedi. For the first 8 years of that the Imperials were pretty splintered, and were spending more time fighting each other than fighting the Rebels. Eventually all the warlords were killed and all remaining Imperial forces rallied behind one leader, but by that time the New Republic held much more territory than the Imperials did and had a stronger fleet. About the only reason the Imperials weren't completely crushed at that point was that they had enough super heavy capital ships still in their inventory to serve as a major strategic deterrent, and the New Republic wasn't really willing to eat the cost of an all-out offensive into the Imperial Remnant. Eventually, a peace treaty was signed between the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant and things were fine until the extra-galactic invaders showed up.

I haven't followed the new EU much, but it does seem that the Empire stays somewhat unified, but is apparently so demoralized that they quickly sign a treaty with the Rebels, ceding Coruscant and a number of other systems to them to end the war. Supposedly Imperial factions other than the First Order do still exist by the time of The Force Awakens. Whether other Imperial factions will factor into the new trilogy in any way remains to be seen.

Natemans:
So am I the only one who still really loves that movie or am I just too blinded by nostalgia to think it's really good?

Nah, it's a good flick. It's just not as exciting as Rogue One is, so it suffers for the comparison. Also people get tired of talking about what they like waaaaaaay before they get tired of bitching about what they hate, so praise will taper off a long time before the complaining will.

I found it a fun ride. Yes, it suffered drastically from the "best hits compilation" syndrome, and the whole "let's get the band together again" after a decade of not much happening, which made the movie pretty predictable and more nostalgic than anything. I'll try not to have my nostalgia goggles on here, but it just felt this movie couldn't hold a candle to the first 3 (I mean the first 3 movies, not in chrono order). I dunno, it kinda took itself too seriously or something. Rey is serviceable as a main character, just enough that I wanted her to succeed in whatever she was trying to do. But I felt the story kinda banked on the Force being the coolest thing in the world as enough justification for her to want to be a Jedi.

So for me, overall pretty good, good enough to watch another one, but really REALLY holding out hope for them to carry this reboot on it's own volition, and leave the old Star Wars behind.

I don't wanna talk about it anymore. The naysayers use ridiculous hyperbole and ignore information.

Dr. McD:

Finn: Initially likeable but the moment he escapes the First Order he has no problem killing.

There is a pretty big difference between slaughtering unarmed, defenseless villagers and killing armed, trained, opponents in a combat setting.
The only people that Finn killed directly were armed Stormtroopers who were actively trying to kill him and his companions.

twistedmic:

Dr. McD:

Finn: Initially likeable but the moment he escapes the First Order he has no problem killing.

There is a pretty big difference between slaughtering unarmed, defenseless villagers and killing armed, trained, opponents in a combat setting.
The only people that Finn killed directly were armed Stormtroopers who were actively trying to kill him and his companions.

The vast majority of the people he killed when trying to escape where unarmed deck hands and a tower crew who where no threat to him and had no ability to defend themselves. Under current international law regarding war he'd be considered a war criminal.

Zontar:
[quote="twistedmic" post="18.949075.23952761
The vast majority of the people he killed when trying to escape where unarmed deck hands and a tower crew who where no threat to him and had no ability to defend themselves. Under current international law regarding war he'd be considered a war criminal.

I'll give you the tower crew, even though they were trying to keep him (and Poe) from escaping, but most of the people on the deck were Stormtroopers trying to shoot down his TIE. Even then, more stormtroopers were killed than tower crew.

Nazulu:
Of course you aren't the only one, and everyone who likes it will like it for different reasons. Plus it made a killing even before came out and was probably seen by everbody. And even if the general consensus had changed, I'm sure there are a billion Star Wars fans who love it either way.

I can see the appeal, but I found it to be terrible in almost every aspect, and it being called "a remake for a new audience" is basically accepting mediocrity as the norm to me.

This critique only covers about half my problems with it.

I kinda hate that video.

Zontar:

twistedmic:

Dr. McD:

Finn: Initially likeable but the moment he escapes the First Order he has no problem killing.

There is a pretty big difference between slaughtering unarmed, defenseless villagers and killing armed, trained, opponents in a combat setting.
The only people that Finn killed directly were armed Stormtroopers who were actively trying to kill him and his companions.

The vast majority of the people he killed when trying to escape where unarmed deck hands and a tower crew who where no threat to him and had no ability to defend themselves. Under current international law regarding war he'd be considered a war criminal.

It's not a war crime to shoot the guards trying to close the doors of the prison camp on you.

altnameJag:
It's not a war crime to shoot the guards trying to close the doors of the prison camp on you.

So a fraction of the tower and deck crew he shot wouldn't be covered similar to the stormtroopers, doesn't change the fact many of the people he did gun down are covered by that.

Not that it matters, the fact fact he tried to escape the way he did dispels any notion that his problem with the First Order was killing people. For god sake the guy was conditioned to be a soldier for them and still had no hesitation in gunning them down.

I mean, obviously? His problem with the First Order was the whole "unnecessary slaughter of innocent uninvolved people" thing. I thought the movie made that pretty clear.

And what's the war crime part, like, specifically?

EDIT: I mean, wouldn't that definition of war crime cover 99% of bombing raids?

Zontar:

twistedmic:

Dr. McD:

Finn: Initially likeable but the moment he escapes the First Order he has no problem killing.

There is a pretty big difference between slaughtering unarmed, defenseless villagers and killing armed, trained, opponents in a combat setting.
The only people that Finn killed directly were armed Stormtroopers who were actively trying to kill him and his companions.

The vast majority of the people he killed when trying to escape where unarmed deck hands and a tower crew who where no threat to him and had no ability to defend themselves. Under current international law regarding war he'd be considered a war criminal.

Should the American pilots who sunk the Japanese aircraft carriers at Midway been tried for war crimes because they killed unarmed cooks and galley crew who were unable to defend themselves at the time? Of course you should take every opportunity to follow the Geneva Convention and refrain from killing unarmed opponents if possible, but only if it doesn't place yourself, your allies or civilians in danger. If Poe and Finn waited for the hangar crew to fully react to the situation and evacuate/defend themselves they may have never been able to escape, resulting in their capture, torture and/or death.

On a related note, can I add that I'm finding the increasing prevalance of "the Empire/First Order did nothing wrong" and "the Rebels/Resistance are terrorists/war criminals" comments a little troubling? It's starting to feel like some folks aren't treating it like a joke anymore...

Neverhoodian:
Snip

It's pretty damn hypocritical of Fin on every level.

"I don't want to kill anyone!"

*Goes on a murder spree against the only people he knows, the equivalent of you killing your own friends and family, instead of just asking to be reassigned*

On a related note, can I add that I'm finding the increasing prevalance of "the Empire/First Order did nothing wrong" and "the Rebels/Resistance are terrorists/war criminals" comments a little troubling? It's starting to feel like some folks aren't treating it like a joke anymore...

The Empire is objectively cooler then the Rebels. They get shit done (building a second death star an order of magnitude larger then the fist in only 4 years in a galaxy where technology was stagnant for the 5,000 years before their rise to power) and apart from doing the galactic equivalent of blowing up a town that's supplying a terrorist group we never see anything on screen to make them actually look like bad guys until the sequels came.

Compared to the Rebels, who tried to turn a legitimate mining outpost into a part of their crime network, and turned a moon who had a state of peaceful coexistence between its locals and the Empire into a warzone where the locals where used as cannon fodder, well it wasn't until the First Order blew up the capital of the state they're at war with that one could argue they're even on their level based off what we see on screen.

That's not to say I'm defending the First Order, the fact that the Galactic Empire fell apart after only 1 year without the Emperor is fucking stupid and Disney had literally no reason to not have the First Order just be the Galactic Empire (and it goes to outright stupid territory when you remember how much money the Original Trilogy merchandise still makes when compared to the Prequels era stuff), but at the end of the day given what we're shown on screen between the Rebellion and the Empire most people would naturally gravitate towards the Empire due to our bias for the status quo and stability, something the Rebellion explicitly opposes to the point of killing random people towards that goal.

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