DCEU

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BuildsLegos:

Agent_Z:
I?m not exactly sure what more you?d have wanted them to do with him, without having him completely over take the plot. Especially given how much flack the X-Men movies have gotten for their increasing focus on Wolverine to the detriment of other characters. El Diablo got as much development as is needed for a guy in an ensemble cast and frankly it?s on par with, if not better, than what we tend to get in the Avengers movies or any big budget action film, lest you start to think I?m singling out the MCU.

I had no idea most of the cast of Suicide Squad got their own individual movies prior to the ensemble.

Please leave the goal posts where you saw them thank you

Samtemdo8:

Natemans:

Agent_Z:

Films lose directors all the time and Affleck quit directing the Batman movie because of the stress and because he felt someone else was more qualified.

They have messed up and made 3 bad movies, some of them have underperformed to barely make even, they hit the panic button and made the production of Suicide Squad a complete mess, they keep throwing all of these movie ideas without a single thought or just rushing out to compete with Marvel instead of building a cinematic universe, their characters are completely bland or one dimensional, they lost 4 directors for the Flash and a page one rewrite (dude, that's not a good sign. This feels like their Gambit movie in terms of production problems), Ben Affleck is the only guy with talent and the way this cinematic universe is run, I'd want him to get out of it badly. Zack Snyder is an incompetent filmmaker and BvS is the worst superhero film I've ever seen. And yes, even worse than Fant4stic and I still thought that was garbage too.

STOP PUSHING ME!!!

Zack Snyder is a brilliant director and his movies are aweseom, the action, the visauls, the music.

We're not pushing you. Jeez!

Look its called a subjective opinion. We're not forcing you to dislike his stuff. I'm just saying my thoughts. I think Zack Snyder is a terrible director and you like his stuff. That's fine.

Agent_Z:

BuildsLegos:

Agent_Z:
I?m not exactly sure what more you?d have wanted them to do with him, without having him completely over take the plot. Especially given how much flack the X-Men movies have gotten for their increasing focus on Wolverine to the detriment of other characters. El Diablo got as much development as is needed for a guy in an ensemble cast and frankly it?s on par with, if not better, than what we tend to get in the Avengers movies or any big budget action film, lest you start to think I?m singling out the MCU.

I had no idea most of the cast of Suicide Squad got their own individual movies prior to the ensemble.

Please leave the goal posts where you saw them thank you

You do realize he was being sarcastic, right?

Agent_Z:

Mangod:

Agent_Z:
Underperformed by whose standards? They've made more money than the first three MCU films.

Iron Man - $585.2 million on a $140 million production budget.
The Incredible Hulk - $263.4 million on a $150 million production budget.
Iron Man 2 - $623.9 million on a $200 million production budget.

Man of Steel - $668 million on a $225 million production budget.
Batman V. Superman: Dawn of Justice - $873.3 million on a $250 million production budget.
The Academy Award Winning Suicide Squad - $745.6 million on a $175 million production budget.

I guess you could argue that they've underperformed because the DC movies had bigger budgets, and wheren't stuck with the B-listers of DC's library, yet the results are comparable (excepting the Hulk Movie).

That the Academy Award Winning Suicide Squad is the most profitable after dividing the box office and subtracting the production budget is hilarious given the controversy surrounding it.

Suicide Squad was not made of A listers and Superman hasn't been a big draw at the movies since the second Superman film. Add in how many superhero films we're getting and I can't see how anyone can expect more than what we got here.

We expect better. Most of the quality of the DCEU films have been pretty bad imo. And I don't trust the people in charge of the DCEU either.

"But they have great filmmakers working with them."

Well, David Ayer is a good filmmaker, but they butchered and ruined his vision with Suicide Squad. They had so much panic over how the film looked to the point that they messed with it. Hell, they even made him write the script for 6 weeks with no re-writes or second drafts. That is not good screenwriting advice.

Natemans:

Samtemdo8:

Natemans:

They have messed up and made 3 bad movies, some of them have underperformed to barely make even, they hit the panic button and made the production of Suicide Squad a complete mess, they keep throwing all of these movie ideas without a single thought or just rushing out to compete with Marvel instead of building a cinematic universe, their characters are completely bland or one dimensional, they lost 4 directors for the Flash and a page one rewrite (dude, that's not a good sign. This feels like their Gambit movie in terms of production problems), Ben Affleck is the only guy with talent and the way this cinematic universe is run, I'd want him to get out of it badly. Zack Snyder is an incompetent filmmaker and BvS is the worst superhero film I've ever seen. And yes, even worse than Fant4stic and I still thought that was garbage too.

STOP PUSHING ME!!!

Zack Snyder is a brilliant director and his movies are aweseom, the action, the visauls, the music.

We're not pushing you. Jeez!

Look its called a subjective opinion. We're not forcing you to dislike his stuff. I'm just saying my thoughts. I think Zack Snyder is a terrible director and you like his stuff. That's fine.

No it isn't because you are not alone in your opinion. I am.

And it pisses me off because I want more movies from this guy, it pisses me off that people also compare him to Michael Bay, because Michael Bay is still making movies where Zacky Boy is now at risk of being kicked off of every project of any movie.

And I much prefer Zack's movies over Bays.

I want more movies or anything from him but EVERYONE now hates him and calls him a hack because of Batman v Superman and now I possibly won't get more movies after Justice League. Basically Fuck Me and what I like and I have to sit down and take it.

Natemans:

Agent_Z:

BuildsLegos:
I had no idea most of the cast of Suicide Squad got their own individual movies prior to the ensemble.

Please leave the goal posts where you saw them thank you

You do realize he was being sarcastic, right?

yeah I did. And?

Agent_Z:

BuildsLegos:

Agent_Z:
I?m not exactly sure what more you?d have wanted them to do with him, without having him completely over take the plot. Especially given how much flack the X-Men movies have gotten for their increasing focus on Wolverine to the detriment of other characters. El Diablo got as much development as is needed for a guy in an ensemble cast and frankly it?s on par with, if not better, than what we tend to get in the Avengers movies or any big budget action film, lest you start to think I?m singling out the MCU.

I had no idea most of the cast of Suicide Squad got their own individual movies prior to the ensemble.

Please leave the goal posts where you saw them thank you

Well EXCUSE ME, Princess! I had no idea El Diablo got his own movie prior to Suicide Squad.

Samtemdo8:

Natemans:

Samtemdo8:

STOP PUSHING ME!!!

Zack Snyder is a brilliant director and his movies are aweseom, the action, the visauls, the music.

We're not pushing you. Jeez!

Look its called a subjective opinion. We're not forcing you to dislike his stuff. I'm just saying my thoughts. I think Zack Snyder is a terrible director and you like his stuff. That's fine.

No it isn't because you are not alone in your opinion. I am.

And it pisses me off because I want more movies from this guy, it pisses me off that people also compare him to Michael Bay, because Michael Bay is still making movies where Zacky Boy is now at risk of being kicked off of every project of any movie.

And I much prefer Zack's movies over Bays.

I want more movies or anything from him but EVERYONE now hates him and calls him a hack because of Batman v Superman and now I possibly won't get more movies after Justice League. Basically Fuck Me and what I like and I have to sit down and take it.

Dude, calm down. We're not pushing you because you're alone. Hell, I love the Force Awakens and defend it heavily against some of the criticisms, but I don't care if I'm alone. I like movies or directors most people don't. I like Batman Forever, G.I. Joe: Retaliation, Face/Off, Mortal Kombat, Demolition Man, Expendables 2, Stardate.

Michael Bay is a hack too. The reason we compare them is because they have similar filmmaking techniques of style over substance and lack of great storytelling or how they do it. I prefer some elements, but with Bay, at least I know what I'm getting unlike Zack.

I dislike his style of direction. I found BvS insulting. If you didn't, then fine. Just stop whining and hating yourself for liking something people didn't.

BuildsLegos:

Agent_Z:

BuildsLegos:
I had no idea most of the cast of Suicide Squad got their own individual movies prior to the ensemble.

Please leave the goal posts where you saw them thank you

Well EXCUSE ME, Princess! I had no idea El Diablo got his own movie prior to Suicide Squad.

He didn't. He's just bad at getting sarcasm.

Natemans:

Samtemdo8:

Natemans:

We're not pushing you. Jeez!

Look its called a subjective opinion. We're not forcing you to dislike his stuff. I'm just saying my thoughts. I think Zack Snyder is a terrible director and you like his stuff. That's fine.

No it isn't because you are not alone in your opinion. I am.

And it pisses me off because I want more movies from this guy, it pisses me off that people also compare him to Michael Bay, because Michael Bay is still making movies where Zacky Boy is now at risk of being kicked off of every project of any movie.

And I much prefer Zack's movies over Bays.

I want more movies or anything from him but EVERYONE now hates him and calls him a hack because of Batman v Superman and now I possibly won't get more movies after Justice League. Basically Fuck Me and what I like and I have to sit down and take it.

Dude, calm down. We're not pushing you because you're alone. Hell, I love the Force Awakens and defend it heavily against some of the criticisms, but I don't care if I'm alone. I like movies or directors most people don't. I like Batman Forever, G.I. Joe: Retaliation, Face/Off, Mortal Kombat, Demolition Man, Expendables 2, Stardate.

Michael Bay is a hack too. The reason we compare them is because they have similar filmmaking techniques of style over substance and lack of great storytelling or how they do it. I prefer some elements, but with Bay, at least I know what I'm getting unlike Zack.

I dislike his style of direction. I found BvS insulting. If you didn't, then fine. Just stop whining and hating yourself for liking something people didn't.

I'm actually gonna defend Snyder too. Of course I'd also defend Bay to an extent but that aside, no, I don't think it's fair to call Snyder a bad director. I really liked Watchmen, thought Sucker Punch was alright, didn't really get into Man of Steel and adored Batman v Superman and I thought the direction on all of those was pretty fantastic, even the ones that felt lacking when it came to the actual writing.

I think he's good at directing action and composing visuals, better than most people doing action movies these days and in a time where super hero movies have a tendency of looking like made for tv productions I do believe it's a godsend to have someone like him working on them. But even aside from his movies looking good he's great at communicating things through visuals alone without having to elaborate on them through exposition. I also think that's one of the reasons why so much of Batman v Superman flew over peoples heads, what you see is just as important as what you're being told and I feel like a lot of people are conditioned to only really pay attention to what they're told in movies. He has an understanding of visual storytelling that many others working the genre lack.

Samtemdo8:
No it isn't because you are not alone in your opinion. I am.

No you aren't, buddy. We're Opinion Pals(TM).

Samtemdo8:
No it isn't because you are not alone in your opinion. I am.

Hey man have you heard of this cool web-comic called Critical Miss? This is one of my favorite pages.

BuildsLegos:

Samtemdo8:
No it isn't because you are not alone in your opinion. I am.

Hey man have you heard of this cool web-comic called Critical Miss? This is one of my favorite pages.

Difference is I never seen anyone that shares my opinion in this situation. And I have seen countlest videos on youtube spouting the opposite.

PsychedelicDiamond:

Natemans:

Samtemdo8:

No it isn't because you are not alone in your opinion. I am.

And it pisses me off because I want more movies from this guy, it pisses me off that people also compare him to Michael Bay, because Michael Bay is still making movies where Zacky Boy is now at risk of being kicked off of every project of any movie.

And I much prefer Zack's movies over Bays.

I want more movies or anything from him but EVERYONE now hates him and calls him a hack because of Batman v Superman and now I possibly won't get more movies after Justice League. Basically Fuck Me and what I like and I have to sit down and take it.

Dude, calm down. We're not pushing you because you're alone. Hell, I love the Force Awakens and defend it heavily against some of the criticisms, but I don't care if I'm alone. I like movies or directors most people don't. I like Batman Forever, G.I. Joe: Retaliation, Face/Off, Mortal Kombat, Demolition Man, Expendables 2, Stardate.

Michael Bay is a hack too. The reason we compare them is because they have similar filmmaking techniques of style over substance and lack of great storytelling or how they do it. I prefer some elements, but with Bay, at least I know what I'm getting unlike Zack.

I dislike his style of direction. I found BvS insulting. If you didn't, then fine. Just stop whining and hating yourself for liking something people didn't.

I'm actually gonna defend Snyder too. Of course I'd also defend Bay to an extent but that aside, no, I don't think it's fair to call Snyder a bad director. I really liked Watchmen, thought Sucker Punch was alright, didn't really get into Man of Steel and adored Batman v Superman and I thought the direction on all of those was pretty fantastic, even the ones that felt lacking when it came to the actual writing.

I think he's good at directing action and composing visuals, better than most people doing action movies these days and in a time where super hero movies have a tendency of looking like made for tv productions I do believe it's a godsend to have someone like him working on them. But even aside from his movies looking good he's great at communicating things through visuals alone without having to elaborate on them through exposition. I also think that's one of the reasons why so much of Batman v Superman flew over peoples heads, what you see is just as important as what you're being told and I feel like a lot of people are conditioned to only really pay attention to what they're told in movies. He has an understanding of visual storytelling that many others working the genre lack.

I like Watchmen only for following the book. Sucker Punch I thought was crap. Beautiful effects, but the story and characters were crap. BvS is the worst superhero film ever made imo.

Oh don't be one of those "you didn't get it" or "its too smart" people.

"I feel like a lot of people are conditioned to only pay attention to what they're told in movies."
Yet this movie told us constantly instead of showing us. Its not visual in storytelling; its visuals with the lack of story or context.

I disagree heavily. Zack Snyder is not good at storytelling at all even in visuals. Examples of those who are good at this: several Disney movies, Stanley Kubrick, Edgar Wright, George Miller, the original Star Wars trilogy, etc. I find Zack Snyder to be incredibly overrated nor do I think he's a good director at all. I keep getting told that BvS looks beautiful, but to be honest, the film looks so bleak, grey and ugly to look at imo.

Samtemdo8:

BuildsLegos:

Samtemdo8:
No it isn't because you are not alone in your opinion. I am.

Hey man have you heard of this cool web-comic called Critical Miss? This is one of my favorite pages.

Difference is I never seen anyone that shares my opinion in this situation. And I have seen countlest videos on youtube spouting the opposite.

Oh, and on that note, I was meaning to say: Mass Effect 3 is awful.

DaCosta:

Samtemdo8:

BuildsLegos:
Hey man have you heard of this cool web-comic called Critical Miss? This is one of my favorite pages.

Difference is I never seen anyone that shares my opinion in this situation. And I have seen countlest videos on youtube spouting the opposite.

Oh, and on that note, I was meaning to say: Mass Effect 3 is awful.

Eh I find Andromeda and Dragon Age 2 to be worse.

Natemans:
Oh don't be one of those "you didn't get it" or "its too smart" people.

I don't think it's a case of how smart you are or aren't; it's just a poorly edited film that made the unfortunate decision of swimming against the trends set by the Marvel films.

It's the kind of superhero film that would've made fans cream their pants back in 2006, but ten years and a dozen Marvel films later...y'know, it's like having steak for dessert. You're at the end of the meal, you want something sweet to have with some coffee or whatever, and a waiter who looks suspiciously like Zack Snyder dumps a one-kilo hunk of rare meat onto your plate. It wasn't what the audience wanted.

DaCosta:
Oh, and on that note, I was meaning to say: Mass Effect 3 is awful.

I was much more annoyed by the incessant, unkillable debate about how shit Mass Effect 3's ending was than I was by the ending itself.

I also didn't think it was bad at all. I didn't really like Mass Effect 2 - when you look closely, you realise that there's no actual narrative for most of ME2, just an extended recruitment drive and then the climax - and I felt that Mass Effect 3 took the writing that I liked from the first game with the combat that I liked from the second. And it did a great job of tying together the loose threads of the previous two games in ways that made your previous decisions feel like they were substantially altering the plot.

The fact that it ended with a trippy conversation with a poorly-voiced ghost kid who tells you what colour of computer terminal you want to stick your dick into was underwhelming, but it came at the end of a complex and very meaty narrative.

Maybe there's a correlation here? Like, maybe there's something in mine and Samtendo's brain chemistry that makes us fall in love with memetic punching bags like BvS and ME3. It's as if we see the entire world united in condemnation of That Shit Thing, and we go "hey, wait, it wasn't that bad," and then through the process of extended debate that sentiment somehow transmutes into "it was the best thing ever and you're all just stupid butts with butts for a face!"

(I also hated DA2, by the way.)

Natemans:

I like Watchmen only for following the book. Sucker Punch I thought was crap. Beautiful effects, but the story and characters were crap. BvS is the worst superhero film ever made imo.

Oh don't be one of those "you didn't get it" or "its too smart" people.

"I feel like a lot of people are conditioned to only pay attention to what they're told in movies."
Yet this movie told us constantly instead of showing us. Its not visual in storytelling; its visuals with the lack of story or context.

I disagree heavily. Zack Snyder is not good at storytelling at all even in visuals. Examples of those who are good at this: several Disney movies, Stanley Kubrick, Edgar Wright, George Miller, the original Star Wars trilogy, etc. I find Zack Snyder to be incredibly overrated nor do I think he's a good director at all. I keep getting told that BvS looks beautiful, but to be honest, the film looks so bleak, grey and ugly to look at imo.

Calling BvS the worst superhero film ever made is pretty harsh. I mean, let's be honest here, the genre had some real stinkers. Wouldn't even call it the worst super hero movie the year it came out, that goes to Suicide Squad, which, to be fair, actually is in my opinion one of the worst ones ever made. But still... Batman and Robin. Catwoman. About half of the X-Men movies. But, okay, you're entitled to your opinion.

No, I'm not saying it's too smart by any means, it's no... Inland Empire or anything comparatively abstract and obtuse. I think the genre overall has become too dumb or, if you find that too cynical a statement to make, I think it has made such a habit of interpreting the subject matter in the form of samey, formulaic action comedies that it led people to approach movie's that try for something more experimental with the wrong mindset and walk away from them dissapointed. Sure, there are movies that break that mold and succeed nonetheless, Nolan's Batman trilogy was one of them, Logan seems to be another, though I haven't seen it yet, but generally speaking, say, Raimi's Spiderman movies, pretty much the entire MCU as well as, say, Deadpool, are essentially the same type of movie. But even the Dark Knight movies and, I presume, Logan are quite a bit less experimental than BvS. Or rather, the Dark Knight trilogy establishes a groundwork of relatively unflinching realism (Well, you know, for an action movie with an inherently pulpy premise) that makes it's themes a lot more obvious because you can easily relate them to the real world which rules it mostly tries to follow. Batman v Superman is set in what is much more blatantly a fantasy world, a world with superpowered aliens and magical amazons and whatnot but the movie still plays it completely straight and tries to convey some pretty serious themes through these elements. I believe that's where it lost many people.

I think there are a lot of things people have missed because it's not explicitly spelled out in dialogue even though they are conclusions that, to me, seemed rather natural to make. One of the most obvious ones of course being that Batman's last Robin was murdered by the Joker which is what drove him over the edge. It's never spelled out, we just see Robin's costume and hear Bruce and Alfred talk about loss and it's a natural conclusion to make. Just like people pointing out that Batman acted highly immorally and accusing the movie of promoting fascist ideology when, to me, it was blatantly obvious that up to the last thirty minutes the movie obviously treated Batman as a, however somewhat sympathetic, bad guy. Or that whole theme about xenophobia that flew past some people even though it literally had a major plotthread about an evil capitalist summoning an uncontrollable monster because he hates an immigrant. And there are a lot of these elements that noone ever seems to bring up even though they are obviously there and there are so many complaints that I read in some of the negative reviews that made me just want to grab the author and yell "That was the whole point, man!" into his ears. Which isn't to say that there aren't a lot of legitimate grievances to have but... you know, I feel with a lot of them people just didn't pay enough attention.

It does have a very bleak and muted style, that's absolutely true, but so does... you know, Denis Villeneuve's Enemy, in fact even more so, but that doesn't mean it isn't a visually beautiful movie. Don't get me wrong, I like bright colours, some of my favourite action movies are Scott Pilgrim vs. The World, Mad Max: Fury Road and Speed Racer but two of those are comedies and the other one is basically a heavy metal album cover come to life. Batman v Superman had a fairly serious and somewhat melancholic tone and therefore went for subdued colours. I mean, it both starts and ends with a funeral. A movie that had no excuse to look as dull as it did and where the production design clashed with the tone were Suicide Squad or Deadpool.You can't have a bunch of dull, grey, oppressive cityscapes and then have Margot Robbie or Ryan Reynolds do their most obnoxious *holds up spork*, I don't think I ever hated a character in an action movie as much as I hated Harley Quinn. But I digress.

Agent_Z:
And Steve Rogers released state secrets putting SHIELD agents in danger, sent Helicarriers into the Potomac River which should have caused more damage than the movies care to acknowledge, instigated a fight that endangered citizens in two cities, recruited a terrorist into his team and smuggled her into the U.S and withheld information about the murder of his team mate?s parents. Yeah, I can see why people might want him kept on a leash. Stark at least seemed like he was trying to learn from his mistakes.
Don?t even get me started on the film ignoring Wanda?s setting the Hulk on citizens back in AoU to make her detainment seem more like jack booted thuggery rather than keeping a dangerous woman from harming more people.

The SHIELD that Rogers uncovered was deeply corrupt. And had been actively working on a project that would use those Helicarriers to kill every person on Earth who could be a threat to Hydra's plans.

It's also worth noting that S.H.I.E.L.D. stands for "Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement and Logistics Division"- given the "Homeland" part of that equation, in most places that SHIELD has agents working undercover in a way that they might be endangered by having their cover might blown by Rogers' reveal, they're likely already working outside their purview (and much more likely not to be working for the right side.)

There is no good place to crash-land a vehicle the size of a Helicarrier. It's somewhat disbelief-baiting that there's a place to safely land such a vehicle. Landing it in the river is probably better than most, as several real-life plane crashes would imply.

It hasn't been ignored that super-powered conflicts involve costs. But there has been a better than decent case made that those conflicts were better than the events they set out to prevent. Ross conveniently forgets that the contingency plan the Avengers' fight against the Chitauri managed to prevent involved dropping a nuclear warhead on New York.

Callate:

Yeah, because the writers ignored the better premise to focus on Steve?s drama with Bucky with the good hair.

Which at least showed some willingness to contemplate the question of whether Rogers' unswerving loyalty was a good thing.

Callate:
They showed differing opinions on him. If you rewatch the protest scene outside the court room, you?ll see some signs defending him. We see their reactions and how this is affecting him. More importantly, Clark actually takes them into consideration. That?s way more than is done with the MCU where a man whose life is ruined by the Avengers is made into a villain.

Civil War is consistent in the view that putting revenge over all other considerations is not a good thing.

You?re kidding right? It?s flat out stated that Steve is incapable of interacting with anyone who isn?t an Avenger or superhero and thus avoid civilians life. His response to being confronted with the consequences of his actions is to do the same things over and over again and hope for different results. Same with Tony. Clint Barton and Scott Lang abandons their families at Steve?s word. Scarlet Witch shows nothing but contempt for people?s justified fear of her. Sokovia is used more as emotional torque for the Avengers than a tragedy in its own right.

Falcon isn't an Avenger when Rogers encounters him. Neither is Peggy, or Sharon Carter. He's a man who came of age in the 1940s and a soldier who was pulled directly out of armed conflict into another era; for all that, he handles himself pretty well.

Trusting his moral compass brought him out of being a war bond poster boy into making a significant impact on the war, led the remnants of SHIELD to fight against the conspiracy that had sprung up in their midst, and saved his best friend's life. There's a more than slight suggestion it's the reason the Super Soldier serum worked on him in the first place. He isn't without reason to trust it, nor have the consequences suggested otherwise.

Callate:
Notice that Luthor is not the only one on that side and even his arguments are about the danger Superman presents rather than his usual schtick of just being jealous because he can?t bench press the planet. Senator Finch is depicted as being actually sincere in her worry for the safety of the world rather than the straw man we usually get from the MCU.

...And then she gets blown up, and the next official response we get on the subject is, "I know, let's use supervillains!"

Because people are always able to think clearly when in a fight to the death with a near unstoppable enemy.

No, but it does take the wind right out of a "noble sacrifice" when there are other options at hand. There's supposed to be more daylight between "tragic act of heroism" and "death wish".

This is a superhero film, not a sitcom or a tween movie. The movie established enough not to get bogged down by rom com antics.

Because the only things that can present credible relationships are romantic comedies, sitcoms, and tween movies?

Maybe there's a difference between "getting bogged down" and going beyond "remind the audience that they're there just enough that they can be used as a hostage"?

I?m not exactly sure what more you?d have wanted them to do with him, without having him completely over take the plot. Especially given how much flack the X-Men movies have gotten for their increasing focus on Wolverine to the detriment of other characters. El Diablo got as much development as is needed for a guy in an ensemble cast and frankly it?s on par with, if not better, than what we tend to get in the Avengers movies or any big budget action film, lest you start to think I?m singling out the MCU.

There have been a tremendous number of movies about people who try to leave violence behind, only for circumstances to force it back into their lives. Just off the top of my head, Unforgiven, A History of Violence, and John Wick come to mind. If I could believe for one moment that El Diablo's return to aggression actually cost him something, or that he made an active choice to give up pacifism to protect people that he cared about, it would make a world of difference- and possibly even make me care when he gets killed in the final conflict.

Instead, it feels like his "arc", such as it is, drums along to a perfunctory set of beats that have as much to do with setting up special effect shots as anything resembling motivation. His emotional range goes all the way from "slightly pissed off" to "totally pissed off"; I can't believe his guilt or his affection when we're told that he's showing either.

By comparison, an example from Netflix's take on the Marvel Universe- Luke Cage. Mid-way through the series, the villain "Cottonmouth" is replaced with another, "Diamondback"- and as I commented to a friend, "crazy train" describes 100% of the latter's emotional range and 90% of his motivation. He wasn't nearly as interesting as what he supplanted. "Cottonmouth" was a better character because he could display calm, happiness, creative impulses- and terrifying, violent, impulsive rage.

Much like I said of the movies over-all, you have to have some valleys as well as some peaks. And you have to treat the valleys as seriously as you do the peaks, not just as filler or set-up for the next bout of thunder.

I should probably inform you that the premise of this movie is Diana being exposed to just how harsh and cruel the world can be and finding that her mom and her people had very good points for abandoning humanity. It also takes place during WW1, easily the most pointless war in human history. It just won?t be her overcoming obstacles via girl power.
If it helps, some of the people who saw her early screenings of it seem to like it.

I hope their assessment of it matches my own, then.

I am someone who is constantly calling for DC to get rid of Snyder and Co and reboot the whole thing. That being said, Zach Snyder has some upside. Taking storyboarding from something like a comic book and translating it to screen, he's pretty good at that. Its just that his awful movies took from awful comics. Snyder didn't do anything wrong with 300, its just awful because any story that lionizes freaking Spartans of all people... doesn't deserve to exist at all. BvS, let's take an awful and hated comic story and smash it into an overrated only enjoyed by the teen "don't call me a teen, look how dark and edgy I am" emo set. In those movies the source material was terrible. If he has good source material, he turns out Watchmen... a well translated comic book movie and very enjoyable.

circularlogic88:
Course correcting this late into the game is kinda pointless. Either go full HAM and do something like Injustice or go back to stand alone movies. Would personally love it if this whole universe was blinked out of existence from the Anti Monitor.

I think the biggest problem with DCEU is that I don't care about the characters. And it feels like WB is trying to correct this by being more jokey and quippy, which is just a distraction from the fact that these characters have no character.

The main problem with the DCEU is Zack Snyder. Some say David Goyer as well, but remember he wrote the Nolan trilogy (obviously with help and supervision from Nolan). But Snyder is the guy responsible for this debacle. It's his vision, his execution, his story and ultimately, his films. You can blame WB for that.

I know that Chris Nolan built a completely different universe for his stand-alone films, but nonetheless, the foundation was still there. The studio could have simply brought in someone else who shared Chris' vision and continued to build on what was a financially successful/critically acclaimed universe. Instead they went into the complete opposite direction with Snyder.

And by the way, being dark is fine. I personally find that more interesting. Being dark is not the problem, the director is. Logan was dark as fuck. But it worked on several levels because of James Mangold, Hugh Jackman, Patrick Stewart and that little girl. Tone is important but story and character development are infinitely more important. And so far Snyder has shown that he really doesn't get the characters. For example, Superman is not dark. When writers try to make him dark to be "more relatable and interesting" it doesn't work and they've already failed. Captain America is a far better example of a modern day Superman than Superman is.

I am hoping beyond all hope that Wonder Woman will get it right. Not just because I'm a fan of the genre, but because I also really want to see a strong female superhero. If WW is a hit, then there's hope for the DCEU. If not, then call in the Anti-Monitor.

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