I may not read Marvel Comics, or any comics for that matter...

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But this is just utter BULLSHIT.

Unless I'm imagining things, they're basically saying that Captain America was pretty much the greatest villain in the Marvel Universe, ever, as the ultimate HYDRA spy. That he was actually fighting for the Nazis the whole time.

Quite plainly, I think this is an effort by Marvel to completely destroy the character of Captain America, and use him as some kind of tool of protest against modern American politics. Basically, I expect them to turn him into a rabid Trump supporter and use that to portray him as evil.

They've basically taken the character who, on the cover of his very first appearance, punched Hitler in the jaw, and are now turning him into the ultimate Nazi spy. It just seems so stupid to me. He's supposed to represent hope, but now they're turning him into a symbol of oppression and fear.

Since I don't really follow comics, I'm just going to ignore that any of this exists. To me, Steve Rogers will always be a true hero and patriot, representing all America can be. Hell, in the Civil War arc, I'd say Cap was the man everyone should have sided with(and in Marvel: Ultimate Alliance 2 that retold the Civil War events, I went Anti-Reg because of that).

I'd like to know how others feel about this. I imagine that anyone who's been following Marvel for a while will be quite a bit more upset at this than I.

Yeah, comic writers are trying to be viral and prove they're not afraid to 'go there'.
And its just as sad and desperate as the edge-lords of the 90s thinking everyone fucking everyone else and black leather was the best direction for comics.

But don't worry. Its Marvel. They'll retcon everything in 5 years. Again. Like they always do.

I've learned in all my years liking comics to literally just ignore the bullshit. Bruce Wayne impregnates Barbara Gordon while she's Dick's fiance? Yeah, just ignore it. It was dumb and is never brought up again.
Venom fights the Tau? Ignore it.

Just ignore it. Pretend it doesn't exist because in a few years Marvel will be telling you it never did.

I think the word "always" means "until the sales figures drop off" in Marvel land.

I'm not much of a comics person either, but this sounds like it could potentially be opening the gates to a hailstorm of plot holes.

They're still going with that story?

Sigh... I'm gonna address all the questions people usually have about this. SPOILERS GALORE!

So Steve Rogers is a Nazi now?
No. In the latest issue of his comic book, he killed the Red Skull precisely because he hates what the Skull stands for.

But Hydra is a Nazi organization, right?
Short answer: No. Long answer: They sometimes act with the Nazis as a means to gain power, or because a current leader (like the Red Skull) is a Nazi, but the basic goal of this ancient organisation is to control the world. Racial and sexual discrimination is not a goal that Hydra sees any reason to pursue for its own sake.

So he wants to conquer the world with the help of Hydra?
That's correct.

Is he mind-controlled or something?
Not exactly. The Red Skull used a cosmic cube to rewrite Steve's past into a past where Steve was raised to be a Hydra agent and chose to work for them.

So what kind of world is Steve looking to create by conquering it?
This remains unclear. He's said that he wants to make Hydra into what it's supposed to be, and that he regards what the Skull turned the organization into as a perversion of Hydra's true purpose.

How could Steve lift Thor's hammer that one time if he's been in Hydra all along?
Obviously, that event has been edited out by the cosmic cube.

Queen Michael, you're a longtime fan of Captain America comics. Isn't this plot twist upsetting to you?
No, because I know that it's only temporary, and I feel it makes for an interesting story.

Also, can I just say that it's a tad annoying when people who don't read Steve Rogers's comic book say they're upset about this change? If you don't feel that the comic book Captain America is worth your time or your money then you're clearly not all that passionate about the character.
It's one thing if you stopped reading the book temporarily because you don't like a particular creative team, but if you've never followed his comic book then sorry, you're like a vegan complaining about the seasoning in a steakhouse. Like the movies? Good, but the movie character is a different person from the comics character.

(I have the same problem with people who demand diverse comics but don't buy them, choosing instead to only share positive posts about them on Tumblr.)

Don't be the kind of person who complains about the comics he finds bad but doesn't support the comics that are good.

Comics in general are stupid.

Marvel Comics stopped mattering -alteast- since Battleworld.

MCU is my Marvel canon now.

And Steve Rogers isnt evil. Joe Simon must be rolling in his grave.

Wasn't he also a Skrull? And was the Skrull a secret Nazi too?

It's comics, so we know it's temporary, but it's not even an interesting story. It doesn't help that it's a story being told across multiple series.

And the stakes are so fucking low. Marvel needs to get rid of Kobik and the Cube.

Silentpony:
Wasn't he also a Skrull? And was the Skrull a secret Nazi too?

As Queen Michael said, reality has been changed. They essentially rebooted the entire MCU just for him. The Cosmic Cube is just so... dumb.

I wouldn't hold my breath that this revelation will last for long.

Welcome to Comic Books where things like this happened:

image

And this:

image

And this:

image

This one almost makes me not want to have Superman and Wonder Woman paired....almost.

And this:

I've always hated this type of shit.

You want to turn a character on it's head? do it with your own character. Don't undo years of stories because you want to be edgy or keep it relevant. Either retire the character or keep the character to his or her roots.

Samtemdo8:
Welcome to Comic Books where things like this happened:

image

And this:

image

And this:

image

This one almost makes me not want to have Superman and Wonder Woman paired....almost.

And this:

Except unlike most people, I can forget most of those stories. Yes, they are bad, but I can forget them and move on with my life while reading comics.

Queen Michael:

Short answer: No. Long answer: They sometimes act with the Nazis as a means to gain power, or because a current leader (like the Red Skull) is a Nazi, but the basic goal of this ancient organisation is to control the world. Racial and sexual discrimination is not a goal that Hydra sees any reason to pursue for its own sake.

I don't have much of a vested interest in this topic, but you do know how analogues work, right?

Like, Hydra doesn't need to literally be throwing Jews into gas chambers to be an analogy for Nazism.

Natemans:

Samtemdo8:
Welcome to Comic Books where things like this happened:

image

And this:

image

And this:

image

This one almost makes me not want to have Superman and Wonder Woman paired....almost.

And this:

Except unlike most people, I can forget most of those stories. Yes, they are bad, but I can forget them and move on with my life while reading comics.

Not Spiderman's case, its still considered Canon to this very day.

Samtemdo8:

Natemans:

Samtemdo8:
Welcome to Comic Books where things like this happened:

image

And this:

image

And this:

image

This one almost makes me not want to have Superman and Wonder Woman paired....almost.

And this:

Except unlike most people, I can forget most of those stories. Yes, they are bad, but I can forget them and move on with my life while reading comics.

Not Spiderman's case, its still considered Canon to this very day.

I still accept JMS's apology for the story. Unlike Quesada, the freakin' hack.

Also I wish Renew Your Vows was canon. That is a fantastic series and that surprises me since its Dan Slott.

Seriously its just Red Skull using cosmic powers and stuff to alter reality. As soon as somebody kicks the crap out of him, everything will be back to normal. This was never something that was going to be permanent and stuff. Its about as permanent as what is happening in Agenst of Shield right now.

Marvel jerks the chains of their readers by manufacturing outrage via a bullshit retcon that will itself be retconned in a few years. In other news, water is wet.

Queen Michael:

Queen Michael, you're a longtime fan of Captain America comics. Isn't this plot twist upsetting to you?
No, because I know that it's only temporary, and I feel it makes for an interesting story.

Also, can I just say that it's a tad annoying when people who don't read Steve Rogers's comic book say they're upset about this change? If you don't feel that the comic book Captain America is worth your time or your money then you're clearly not all that passionate about the character.
It's one thing if you stopped reading the book temporarily because you don't like a particular creative team, but if you've never followed his comic book then sorry, you're like a vegan complaining about the seasoning in a steakhouse. Like the movies? Good, but the movie character is a different person from the comics character.

(I have the same problem with people who demand diverse comics but don't buy them, choosing instead to only share positive posts about them on Tumblr.)

Don't be the kind of person who complains about the comics he finds bad but doesn't support the comics that are good.

Maybe I'd be interested in buying some comics and supporting the industry if they stopped pulling this kind of shit. Shallow publicity stunts like these are the reason why I've never taken the plunge into the medium. Shaking up the status quo is all well and good, but at least do it in a way that doesn't completely miss the point behind the themes and characters and isn't a giant middle finger to longtime fans.

Then there's the issue of continuity, or lack thereof. It's difficult to become invested in something knowing that it can all be erased in the blink of an eye thanks to some time/reality/dimension altering macguffin. If the writers were really hell-bent on making an evil Cap, then why not make a "what if" standalone story in one of those theoretically infinite parallel universes they seem to love so much? The Steve Rogers fans know and love would have stayed intact, and there may have been potential to create a lucrative spin-off continuity like they did with the Marvel Ultimate universe. But no, they had to show contempt for their readers by insisting this is the One True Captain America all along, so you better get used to it, bucko. I can see why many longtime fans would view that as a slap in the face, publicity stunt or no.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just some unwashed MCU fanboy pleb who doesn't know what he's talking about. One thing I do know though is that the industry has been struggling with declining readership for quite some time, and I think it's partly because John/Jane Q. Public can't make heads or tails of the topsy-turvy, borderline incomprehensible web of retcons and "outrage culture" pieces. It's an intimidating prospect for those going in "cold turkey."

Queen Michael:
Sigh... I'm gonna address all the questions people usually have about this. SPOILERS GALORE!

So Steve Rogers is a Nazi now?
No. In the latest issue of his comic book, he killed the Red Skull precisely because he hates what the Skull stands for.

But Hydra is a Nazi organization, right?
Short answer: No. Long answer: They sometimes act with the Nazis as a means to gain power, or because a current leader (like the Red Skull) is a Nazi, but the basic goal of this ancient organisation is to control the world. Racial and sexual discrimination is not a goal that Hydra sees any reason to pursue for its own sake.

So he wants to conquer the world with the help of Hydra?
That's correct.

Is he mind-controlled or something?
Not exactly. The Red Skull used a cosmic cube to rewrite Steve's past into a past where Steve was raised to be a Hydra agent and chose to work for them.

So what kind of world is Steve looking to create by conquering it?
This remains unclear. He's said that he wants to make Hydra into what it's supposed to be, and that he regards what the Skull turned the organization into as a perversion of Hydra's true purpose.

How could Steve lift Thor's hammer that one time if he's been in Hydra all along?
Obviously, that event has been edited out by the cosmic cube.

Queen Michael, you're a longtime fan of Captain America comics. Isn't this plot twist upsetting to you?
No, because I know that it's only temporary, and I feel it makes for an interesting story.

Also, can I just say that it's a tad annoying when people who don't read Steve Rogers's comic book say they're upset about this change? If you don't feel that the comic book Captain America is worth your time or your money then you're clearly not all that passionate about the character.
It's one thing if you stopped reading the book temporarily because you don't like a particular creative team, but if you've never followed his comic book then sorry, you're like a vegan complaining about the seasoning in a steakhouse. Like the movies? Good, but the movie character is a different person from the comics character.

(I have the same problem with people who demand diverse comics but don't buy them, choosing instead to only share positive posts about them on Tumblr.)

Don't be the kind of person who complains about the comics he finds bad but doesn't support the comics that are good.

Pretty solid breakdown which is a refreshing break from the frothing shitstorm that the escapist community enjoys throwing up over non-issues. Such as comic book arcs they don't like.

mariosonicfan5:
Seriously its just Red Skull using cosmic powers and stuff to alter reality. As soon as somebody kicks the crap out of him, everything will be back to normal. This was never something that was going to be permanent and stuff. Its about as far permanent as what is happening in Agenst of Shield right now.

Yeah, well

But in the end, what you're saying is exactly why I'm not happy about this. I'm not so annoyed at the changes (I mean they're stupid, but temporary), it's that they are wasting everyone's time. We finally got Cap back, after he spent a couple of years as a fogey and we got the greaatttt Captain Falcon. I was excited, he had a cool new look and shield, and he is now one of the most popular characters in the MCU, but what we got was this. Now we have to endure another few years without real Captain America. You could say that I should just ignore it, but it's a goddamn universe wide event and all the other comics and characters I actually enjoy are going to be affected.

shrekfan246:

Queen Michael:

Short answer: No. Long answer: They sometimes act with the Nazis as a means to gain power, or because a current leader (like the Red Skull) is a Nazi, but the basic goal of this ancient organisation is to control the world. Racial and sexual discrimination is not a goal that Hydra sees any reason to pursue for its own sake.

I don't have much of a vested interest in this topic, but you do know how analogues work, right?

Like, Hydra doesn't need to literally be throwing Jews into gas chambers to be an analogy for Nazism.

I'm not denying that they've been used as analogues for Nazis in the past. What I'm denying is that they're an actual Nazi organization. They're not, despite what people want to claim.

It's one thing to say

Nick Spencer's been getting the roasting he deserves on Twitter over this particularly stupid arc. Shit like this almost killed comics in the 90s and is definitely hurting them again.

altnameJag:
Nick Spencer's been getting the roasting he deserves on Twitter over this particularly stupid arc. Shit like this almost killed comics in the 90s and is definitely hurting them again.

A few months back there were reports that comic book stores were complaining about Marvel's constant events and issue #0s. Apparently they are hurting comic book sales.

At least they didn't make the young, time displaced Iceman from the past gay while keeping his older self from the present straight because that would be confusing and go against 50 years of established comic continuity...

It's like Marvel learned the wrong lesson when 95% of comic book fans backed Cap immediately and without reservation in Civil War.

Rogers should have stayed dead on those courthouse steps.

Ravenbom:
At least they didn't make the young, time displaced Iceman from the past gay while keeping his older self from the present straight because that would be confusing and go against 50 years of established comic continuity...

...no, just going against a more renowned character's entire raison d'etre established 76 years ago.

I mean, time displaced Jean Grey is still a massive asshole (though Iceman could've just been bi the whole time), but it's not really comparable.

The Cosmic Cube can totally re-write a character's history, a power formerly reserved to... whatever writer worked their way far enough up the totem pole to play with Marvel's "big toys"...

In that light, it's kind of meta.

Comics have been throwing things at the wall to see what sticks pretty much since comics- trying to come up with outrageous stories that would spark interest (and in some cases, controversy) and in turn drum up sales. Better still if the outrageous can be summed up in a high-concept splash line and a single cover image.

It's easier than finding people who can a) actually write well and b) continue to write well when thrust into the thick of the convoluted strands of superhero continuity.

I don't love it-- it smacks of the kind of melodrama that we occasionally dream comics have risen above as they've striven to become a more mature medium- but as has been observed, this, too, shall likely pass.

If I was the red skull and had cosmic reality altering powers, at some point my todo list would include "become just regular head guy".

Queen Michael:
Sigh... I'm gonna address all the questions people usually have about this. SPOILERS GALORE!

So Steve Rogers is a Nazi now?
No. In the latest issue of his comic book, he killed the Red Skull precisely because he hates what the Skull stands for.

But Hydra is a Nazi organization, right?
Short answer: No. Long answer: They sometimes act with the Nazis as a means to gain power, or because a current leader (like the Red Skull) is a Nazi, but the basic goal of this ancient organisation is to control the world. Racial and sexual discrimination is not a goal that Hydra sees any reason to pursue for its own sake.

So he wants to conquer the world with the help of Hydra?
That's correct.

Is he mind-controlled or something?
Not exactly. The Red Skull used a cosmic cube to rewrite Steve's past into a past where Steve was raised to be a Hydra agent and chose to work for them.

So what kind of world is Steve looking to create by conquering it?
This remains unclear. He's said that he wants to make Hydra into what it's supposed to be, and that he regards what the Skull turned the organization into as a perversion of Hydra's true purpose.

How could Steve lift Thor's hammer that one time if he's been in Hydra all along?
Obviously, that event has been edited out by the cosmic cube.

Queen Michael, you're a longtime fan of Captain America comics. Isn't this plot twist upsetting to you?
No, because I know that it's only temporary, and I feel it makes for an interesting story.

Also, can I just say that it's a tad annoying when people who don't read Steve Rogers's comic book say they're upset about this change? If you don't feel that the comic book Captain America is worth your time or your money then you're clearly not all that passionate about the character.
It's one thing if you stopped reading the book temporarily because you don't like a particular creative team, but if you've never followed his comic book then sorry, you're like a vegan complaining about the seasoning in a steakhouse. Like the movies? Good, but the movie character is a different person from the comics character.

(I have the same problem with people who demand diverse comics but don't buy them, choosing instead to only share positive posts about them on Tumblr.)

Don't be the kind of person who complains about the comics he finds bad but doesn't support the comics that are good.

but

isn't that kinda annoying?

Lol, that sounds hilarious. I don't care for superhero media much myself, but Captain America was always the least interesting superhero to me, anyway. He's on a level with Aquaman.

Queen Michael:

Queen Michael, you're a longtime fan of Captain America comics. Isn't this plot twist upsetting to you?
No, because I know that it's only temporary, and I feel it makes for an interesting story.

Also, can I just say that it's a tad annoying when people who don't read Steve Rogers's comic book say they're upset about this change? If you don't feel that the comic book Captain America is worth your time or your money then you're clearly not all that passionate about the character.
It's one thing if you stopped reading the book temporarily because you don't like a particular creative team, but if you've never followed his comic book then sorry, you're like a vegan complaining about the seasoning in a steakhouse. Like the movies? Good, but the movie character is a different person from the comics character.

(I have the same problem with people who demand diverse comics but don't buy them, choosing instead to only share positive posts about them on Tumblr.)

Don't be the kind of person who complains about the comics he finds bad but doesn't support the comics that are good.

As a fan of Captain America comics as well, can I just say that... this was an incredibly dumb move for Marvel to play given the movie portrayal of Captain America? Like, I can totally get people who don't read the comics having a go at it, because fuck, it's not like this story is a warm and welcome introduction to the world of comics. Going from 'Actual Hero Captain America' from the movies to 'Cosmic-Retcon My First Nihilism Class' doesn't exactly engender an interest in the character or a desire to support the series, and all the dumb marketing shit Marvel's been playing up about the whole she-bang hasn't exactly been helping. People getting mad at the comic despite not reading it is understandable because... well, fuck, why would you read it to begin with?

...Also because, quite bluntly, it's just a fucking dumb story. Like, jesus christ, Spencer must be king of the fucking Blowjobs because I can't fathom how else he got a writing job. A Cosmic Retcon AND fucking with a main-continuity hero? Bro, do you even listen to what fans hate the most? And the fact that it has to be temporary (Status Quo Is God) is also annoying because it means fuck-all over the entire arc will actually stick around anyway. Just a trifecta of dumb, meaningless controversy for no reason beyond... shits and giggles, I guess.

...You know what, that's a question - who the fuck is this arc for anyway? The only people I've seen praising the move aren't quite whom I'd try to curry as a long-term audience for a hero that punches Nazis, if you catch my drift, so I'm just wondering... who is it for? It's not for newcomers, and it's not for veterans, so... yeah. Is it just Spencer jerking off for a year and a half?

Dumber than the Clone saga, Superman Red/Blue, and Ultimatum rolled into one.

Love it, love everything about it. I may not have actually picked up a comic book since secret wars 2015 but cap becoming a literal Nazi is definitely an idea I can get behind.

#tonystarkwasrightallalong

Wrex Brogan:

...Also because, quite bluntly, it's just a fucking dumb story. Like, jesus christ, Spencer must be king of the fucking Blowjobs because I can't fathom how else he got a writing job. A Cosmic Retcon AND fucking with a main-continuity hero? Bro, do you even listen to what fans hate the most? And the fact that it has to be temporary (Status Quo Is God) is also annoying because it means fuck-all over the entire arc will actually stick around anyway. Just a trifecta of dumb, meaningless controversy for no reason beyond... shits and giggles, I guess.

image

Wrex Brogan:

...You know what, that's a question - who the fuck is this arc for anyway? The only people I've seen praising the move aren't quite whom I'd try to curry as a long-term audience for a hero that punches Nazis, if you catch my drift, so I'm just wondering... who is it for? It's not for newcomers, and it's not for veterans, so... yeah. Is it just Spencer jerking off for a year and a half?

Remember, Marvel's financial woes are due to diversity. Not anything to do with making ComicCap into someone MovieCap (or even Chris Evans) would punch.

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