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Dragon Age: Origins – A storyteller’s perspective

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Let me preface this with a small introduction, and perhaps some context as to where I approach gaming from. I'm a cranky old lady who's been earning a living for 20 years with nothing but a moderate knowledge of the English language. I'm a tabletop RPG, sci-fi, fantasy freak living comfortably in my alter-ego as a suburban-living corporate drone. And I have the hand-eye co-ordination and reflexes of a tortoise on Xanax.

When it comes to RPGs, actual gameplay mechanics are truly secondary to me. I mean, as someone who's spent countless hours with Neverwinter Nights, Oblivion, Fable and Mass Effect, I found the controls of DA:O to be intuitive, easily mapped and accessible to my only-semi-opposable thumbs - drag spell/skill/item into slot where it's easily found, master zoom in/zoom out feature, Crazy-Glue thumb to space bar for pausing and voila! The absolute joy to be found in the gameplay mechanics is when you stumble across those spell combinations, or particular skills that allow you to wander through the land of Ferelden rejoicing in your own bad-assery.

Using the party rogues to sneak, disable traps, shoot some one-hit kills, and lure unsuspecting darkspawn into your winding trap of death ... priceless. Watching your mage take out an ogre with a cone of cold/stonefist combo ... priceless. Making your husband look at you with a touch of fear for a week after an accidental slip of the phrase 'ice-fisting' ... priceless.

Speaking of bad-assery - and really, aren't we always? - one of my RPG pet-peeves from the moment I first plugged in TES: Oblivion has been level scaling. What FUN is it to level up, find the best armour, and improve your spells if every creature this side of the swamp is still stronger than you as you advance? While it's obviously important to make sure there's always a challenge to the game, one should always be able to experience the sheer joy of wading through puddles of virtual gore and slicing your way through hoards of fodder while singing a sea shanty. DA:O's endgame, in particular, accomplished this very well. While full of dozens upon dozens of slayable target practice, the encounters are also sprinkled with just enough impale-you-on-your-own-petard challenge to make each victory a real celebration.

I am somewhat amused by the amount of complaining around the lack of a PC voice in DA:O, especially as I'm not quite senile enough to have forgotten the whingeing around the prospect of a fully-voiced PC in Mass Effect. ("Ohnoez! It's not MY voice! It will break teh immersionz!!" ... etc. etc.) That said, every time my Elven mage opened a door and said "On it!" my instant and uncontrollable response was, "These darkspawn are TOAST, because REVAN is gonna kick their ASSES!!! Whooot!" ... and so on...

The graphics are, perhaps, a step back from something like Mass Effect or other next-gen console games, but I was playing on PC, so I didn't notice that much. My only complaints were the occasional frame-rate stutter, as well as the freakishly large hands and bad teeth on each and every character. Seriously...get these people some Crest Whitestrips.

Now...for the meat, the gravy, and the dessert. Story. Yeah, I'm a BioWare fangirl. Let's get that out of the way. (Or, perhaps...BioWare Fangranny ... or some such thing.) But the reason I'm a fan, is because the stories they present to me continue to blow my mind. Dragon Age: Origins is no exception. The characters and companions that followed my wacky elf from one end of Ferelden to another had me laughing out loud, getting misty eyed, and raging wildly at my computer screen. Adventures had me thinking about issues like honouring the war veterans who put their lives on the line for us, about choosing duty, love, honour or faith, about the ties that keep families together and the lies that drive them apart. I couldn't resist constantly returning to my paramour for kisses, and nighttime cuddles, and to my friends for advice and colourful commentary.

Now, let it also be said that I'm a huge, huge fan of endings that aren't necessarily pulled from the arse of Walt Disney. I love a story that leaves me feeling like I've been kicked in the gut a few times, and let me tell you, I've been thoroughly pummelled through this experience. In my mind's eye, I seriously have a raging, screaming elf who's being carried away over the shoulder of a large Quanari while hurling obscenities on the entire congregated population of Denarem. And thus the legend of the Mad Grey Warden begins.

If you don't like dialogue, skip this game. If you only want happy endings, skip this game. If you don't want to have to think your way through scenarios, skip this game.

If you want to have your mind and soul ripped away from the everyday drudgery of real life and thrown into a mind-numbing adventure of passion, rage, betrayal, love and the occasional digital luvvin' ... get Dragon Age. Live it. Love it.

Our student group just got two copies from our campus' EA rep, so I got to play with the game for about two hours or so. Personally we went with a Dwarven Noble to start. Now, an hour after we finished I can say that this game easily has some of the best fantasy based stories and politics I have ever seen. This is definitely a game that I am buying when I get my next paycheck.

mugetsu37:
Our student group just got two copies from our campus' EA rep, so I got to play with the game for about two hours or so. Personally we went with a Dwarven Noble to start. Now, an hour after we finished I can say that this game easily has some of the best fantasy based stories and politics I have ever seen. This is definitely a game that I am buying when I get my next paycheck.

Dwarven tank is gonna be my next play-through....the female dwarves in DA are very pretty...I guess it helps with the romance subplot. ;/

Uilleand:

mugetsu37:
Our student group just got two copies from our campus' EA rep, so I got to play with the game for about two hours or so. Personally we went with a Dwarven Noble to start. Now, an hour after we finished I can say that this game easily has some of the best fantasy based stories and politics I have ever seen. This is definitely a game that I am buying when I get my next paycheck.

Dwarven tank is gonna be my next play-through....the female dwarves in DA are very pretty...I guess it helps with the romance subplot. ;/

There are such things as female Dwarves!?
The amount of features in this game is impressive, however I cannot stand the shitty combat. If only it was in Real Time..

imahobbit4062:
There are such things as female Dwarves!?
The amount of features in this game is impressive, however I cannot stand the shitty combat. If only it was in Real Time..

*shrug*...then it would be an RTS and not an RPG. I'm a tactical player, so the combat is wonderful for me. I love micromanaging each party move and taking down big enemies with minimal damage to my party. On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't enjoy a real-time combat game. It's the lack of opposable thumbs, you see...

Its a great game so far, ive got it on the Xbox360 and im supprised how easy the controls are. Been mucking around with a few builds but have settled on an Elven dual weapon Warrior.

That's the most well written wall of text I've seen on this forum so far! <3 OP

I know what you mean about having interesting endings, I'm still wondering what the cost of my character's survival might be.

imahobbit4062:
The amount of features in this game is impressive, however I cannot stand the shitty combat. If only it was in Real Time..

...it is real time. Seriously, I have no idea where you got the impression that it ISN'T real time...

Jandau:

imahobbit4062:
The amount of features in this game is impressive, however I cannot stand the shitty combat. If only it was in Real Time..

...it is real time. Seriously, I have no idea where you got the impression that it ISN'T real time...

It isnt, you have to select attacks from a menu.

I find Dragon Age to be awfully generic with dull characters. The story is not interesting at all.

BioWare is actually not very good at writing. If their games were adventure games instead of CRPGs, they wouldn't pass muster. But when it's a CRPG you have so many other things to focus on.

imahobbit4062:

Jandau:

imahobbit4062:
The amount of features in this game is impressive, however I cannot stand the shitty combat. If only it was in Real Time..

...it is real time. Seriously, I have no idea where you got the impression that it ISN'T real time...

It isnt, you have to select attacks from a menu.

Yes, you select attacks from a menu (or a quickbar in the PC version). That has nothing to do with the fact that combat is real time. I guess what you're reffering to is that you don't directly execute the moves by inputing button combinations, but rather control the characters by issuing orders. However, that has nothing to do with wether or not a game is real time. ;)

Jandau:

imahobbit4062:

Jandau:

imahobbit4062:
The amount of features in this game is impressive, however I cannot stand the shitty combat. If only it was in Real Time..

...it is real time. Seriously, I have no idea where you got the impression that it ISN'T real time...

It isnt, you have to select attacks from a menu.

Yes, you select attacks from a menu (or a quickbar in the PC version). That has nothing to do with the fact that combat is real time. I guess what you're reffering to is that you don't directly execute the moves by inputing button combinations, but rather control the characters by issuing orders. However, that has nothing to do with wether or not a game is real time. ;)

Precisely. If you've ever played Neverwinter Nights, you'd know that it is in fact incredibly easy to navigate the menu selections in under a second if you know what you're doing.

Especially true for mages who can select their next action before the actual origional animation is over >_>

bagodix:
I find Dragon Age to be awfully generic with dull characters. The story is not interesting at all.

BioWare is actually not very good at writing. If their games were adventure games instead of CRPGs, they wouldn't pass muster. But when it's a CRPG you have so many other things to focus on.

I'd sure like to hear about an adventure game that you think has better characters and writing than Dragon Age.

The story, characters, and setting were interesting enough that they sucked my wife in and she's now on her second character. My wife is not a gamer beyond your occasional Popcap time waster, and just watching me play has drawn her in.

To each his own, I guess, but as far as video game stories and characters go I'd say BioWare is way ahead of the industry curve.

AcacianLeaves:
I'd sure like to hear about an adventure game that you think has better characters and writing than Dragon Age.

Grim Fandango.

To each his own, I guess, but as far as video game stories and characters go I'd say BioWare is way ahead of the industry curve.

Valve, for example, has much better writing. BioWare has created some good characters (like Tali), but they rely too much on stock characters, cliches and recycled plot devices.

To each his own, I guess, but as far as video game stories and characters go I'd say BioWare is way ahead of the industry curve.

Valve, for example, has much better writing. BioWare has created some good characters (like Tali), but they rely too much on stock characters, cliches and recycled plot devices.

Agreed. The writing was better as Black Isle Studios. To this day, Torment remains my favourite RPG. Neverwinter Nights came close, but that was only because the community made some amazing modules.

bagodix:

AcacianLeaves:
I'd sure like to hear about an adventure game that you think has better characters and writing than Dragon Age.

Grim Fandango.

To each his own, I guess, but as far as video game stories and characters go I'd say BioWare is way ahead of the industry curve.

Valve, for example, has much better writing. BioWare has created some good characters (like Tali), but they rely too much on stock characters, cliches and recycled plot devices.

Sorry I should have specified that I would like an example from somewhere in the last decade. I like Planescape and Grim Fandango too, but I'd say it's about time we peeled our lips off of the old titles and tried to find something that was released in the last 2 generations to compare a modern game to? To me, Dragon Age is a step in the right direction of well written, deep, and epic games that allow a focus on story and interesting characters. It's not flawless, but it's so much better than game writing has become and I can only hope that Bioware continues to shift focus towards well written games rather than bits of dialogue in between genocidal rampages.

"Valve" has better writing? What, you think "look out, I hear a smoker nearby" has better writing than Dragon Age? Or "Gordon Freeman, thank God you're here now go kill everything that's not human"? Not saying those aren't great games, but I never once considered them good because of the writing of all things. Good writing for shooters sure, but having any writing at all in shooters is kind of a new thing. The bar is set pretty low, whereas in epic fantasy RPGs the bar is relatively high.

I really enjoy Dragon Age: Origins, and for a video game it has some decent writing, even some symbolism and themes(SO MUCH BLOOD), however it follows Bioware's admittedly awesome formula, and is kinda a by the book RPG. The thing that makes Dragon Age: Origins so intense is the depth of the choices and lack of consequence of those choices. Unlike previous Bioware RPGs there isn't a "morality scale" regardless of what you do, you remain you, and only your relationships with to your party members change. This is the next logical step. It started with a sliding scale, then in Mass Effect you can gain points in both directions without moving away from the other, and now, nothing. This is actually rather freeing. Provided you can talk or strong arm people into staying with you, you can rationalize any action you can take in the game to your party. Some won't approve and your relationships with them will be strained, but aside from that, there is nothing. It allows for roleplay by removing an element of the game mechanic, it puts the game experience more in the minds of the player and less in the processor of the hardware.

bagodix:

AcacianLeaves:
I'd sure like to hear about an adventure game that you think has better characters and writing than Dragon Age.

Grim Fandango.

The Longest Journey would be my nomination.

To each his own, I guess, but as far as video game stories and characters go I'd say BioWare is way ahead of the industry curve.

Valve, for example, has much better writing. BioWare has created some good characters (like Tali), but they rely too much on stock characters, cliches and recycled plot devices.

I find Valve's storytelling skills overrated, myself. They're very well done for what they have, but cutting out most dialogue that games waste isn't a huge testament to writing skills; it's only a slight one.

Bioware's stories and settings (save for Jade Empire) have been more generic than my favorite games. I'd offer up Planescape: Torment, Knights of the Old Republic 2 (story mainly) or Thief as an example here of better stories and settings. What they do have is pretty good characters, though Persona 3/4 give them a run for their money.

AcacianLeaves:

bagodix:

AcacianLeaves:
I'd sure like to hear about an adventure game that you think has better characters and writing than Dragon Age.

Grim Fandango.

To each his own, I guess, but as far as video game stories and characters go I'd say BioWare is way ahead of the industry curve.

Valve, for example, has much better writing. BioWare has created some good characters (like Tali), but they rely too much on stock characters, cliches and recycled plot devices.

Sorry I should have specified that I would like an example from somewhere in the last decade. I like Planescape and Grim Fandango too, but I'd say it's about time we peeled our lips off of the old titles and tried to find something that was released in the last 2 generations to compare a modern game to? To me, Dragon Age is a step in the right direction of well written, deep, and epic games that allow a focus on story and interesting characters. It's not flawless, but it's so much better than game writing has become and I can only hope that Bioware continues to shift focus towards well written games rather than bits of dialogue in between genocidal rampages.

"Valve" has better writing? What, you think "look out, I hear a smoker nearby" has better writing than Dragon Age? Or "Gordon Freeman, thank God you're here now go kill everything that's not human"? Not saying those aren't great games, but I never once considered them good because of the writing of all things. Good writing for shooters sure, but having any writing at all in shooters is kind of a new thing. The bar is set pretty low, whereas in epic fantasy RPGs the bar is relatively high.

Wholly agree with your post. Valve may write a good story, plot in the background, but it is a rail shooter with no twists at all?

I was constantly worried that Morrigan ws gonna turn me into a frog or that a certain elf may or may not be trustworthy!

Love your post OP. Best review of the game I have read, seriously, I have read ALOT. On my third play through now.

Bioware is easily the LEADING RPG developer of this generation. Show me a game out now with better writing, plot and characters (HOW YOU CAN THINK THE QUNARI ARE BLAND AND CLICHED!!!!*not at op but bagodix (why we are even debating with a person with a name like that)*).

Morrigan was by far my favourite character. She had the coolest backstory, and she taught me to turn into a demon bear. You don't see Allistair teaching you to be a demon bear. "Whaa, Whaa, I have to be king" I replaced his party slot with my dog.

AcacianLeaves:
Sorry I should have specified that I would like an example from somewhere in the last decade. I like Planescape and Grim Fandango too, but I'd say it's about time we peeled our lips off of the old titles and tried to find something that was released in the last 2 generations to compare a modern game to?

That's a completely arbitrary restriction, and since adventure games have almost died and there's been a general decline in the writing quality of video games, it's difficult if not impossible to find newer games on par with Grim Fandango.

To me, Dragon Age is a step in the right direction of well written, deep, and epic games that allow a focus on story and interesting characters. It's not flawless, but it's so much better than game writing has become and I can only hope that Bioware continues to shift focus towards well written games rather than bits of dialogue in between genocidal rampages.

Dragon Age isn't anything new for BioWare, all their games have been the same. It's also ridiculous to suggest that prior to DA the general trend has been "bits of dialogue in between genocidal rampages." Story-oriented games are nothing new, they were already commonplace over two decades ago.

"Valve" has better writing? What, you think "look out, I hear a smoker nearby" has better writing than Dragon Age? Or "Gordon Freeman, thank God you're here now go kill everything that's not human"?

Going by this logic I could judge DA's writing based on the things your player character says during gameplay ("my weapon isn't working!"). Good writing has nothing to do with creating Epic Stories of Epicness where you're constantly in dialogue or encountering yet another plot twist or making an agonizing Moral Choice. Even Left 4 Dead has a lot of good writing, despite the fact that it has no plot or narrative to speak of.

Having any writing at all in shooters is kind of a new thing.

No, it's not.

The bar is set pretty low, whereas in epic fantasy RPGs the bar is relatively high.

System Shock, Thief, Max Payne, Deus Ex, BioShock, STALKER... the bar isn't anywhere near low, at least not by game industry standards.

Bretty:
Wholly agree with your post. Valve may write a good story, plot in the background, but it is a rail shooter with no twists at all?

I was constantly worried that Morrigan ws gonna turn me into a frog or that a certain elf may or may not be trustworthy!

Even the poorest hack writer can come up with a plot twist. It's not an indication of quality.

Show me a game out now with better writing, plot and characters.

This line of reasoning doesn't prove that DA has good writing. Being less bad than others isn't the same thing as being good.

(why we are even debating with a person with a name like that)

What does my name have to do with this?

AcacianLeaves:
snip

bagodix:
That's a completely arbitrary restriction, and since adventure games have almost died and there's been a general decline in the writing quality of video games, it's difficult if not impossible to find newer games on par with Grim Fandango.

What I'm saying is that games are judged relative to their peers and the state of the market. I'm not saying Grim Fandango wasn't fantastic writing, I'm just saying it's in a completely different genre in a completely different market at a completely different time. Also notice that every game you've mentioned as having good storytelling is a PC exclusive released 10 or more years ago. This is important in determining where your own opinions come from. I suspect you may be biased against new console games. It's not a bad thing being a nostalgic gamer, it just means that you aren't allowing yourself to enjoy new games simply because you believe the older games were better (despite probably not having played them in the spanning decade).

snip

bagodix:
Dragon Age isn't anything new for BioWare, all their games have been the same. It's also ridiculous to suggest that prior to DA the general trend has been "bits of dialogue in between genocidal rampages." Story-oriented games are nothing new, they were already commonplace over two decades ago.

No, two decades ago it was 1989. Unless Bomberman has some deeper philosophical meaning to its dialogue and writing, I'm not sure I can agree on your incredibly loose definition of 'commonplace'. What I mean is that the recent, current generation trend in console gaming has been focused on combat and mass genocide rather than adequate storytelling. In one statement you say games haven't had good writing since the days of adventure games, and in the next you tell me that games with good stories have been around for 'over two decades'?

And while Dragon Age is more or less crafted from the same mold as other BioWare games, this mold has been polished and fine-tuned to a mirror shine. It does everything BioWare games have done previously, true. But it does them much, much better.

snip

bagodix:
Going by this logic I could judge DA's writing based on the things your player character says during gameplay ("my weapon isn't working!"). Good writing has nothing to do with creating Epic Stories of Epicness where you're constantly in dialogue or encountering yet another plot twist or making an agonizing Moral Choice. Even Left 4 Dead has a lot of good writing, despite the fact that it has no plot or narrative to speak of.

No, because DA has tons and tons of reciprocal dialogue and conversations. Name one actual conversation that takes place between you and the supporting cast in any of the Half Life games. Oh that's right, there aren't any because the entire game consists of people talking at you and telling you what to do. Your character never has a voice. That isn't interactive storytelling. It's writing and it moves the plot forward, but it does it in the same way a movie would. I never feel like I'm part of the story in any of Valve's games. I'm just a puppet with a gun being moved along the rail.

In Dragon Age you have a role in how the story works and how things play out, you shape the direction that the writing goes. Just as you would have done in many of those old school adventure games. This is what I mean when I say its a step in the right direction for this generation of games. BioWare is attempting to give the player an active role in the story of a game, rather than a passive role as in most of the industry.

Having any writing at all in shooters is kind of a new thing.

bagodix:
No, it's not.

Yes, it is. System Shock was successful because of how enormously different it was. Did I say that writing was totally new for shooters and has never existed before? No, I said it was 'kind of a new thing'. To this day the best writing I've experienced in any shooter is probably System Shock, and I'd wager you agree with me. What does it say about the writing bar for a genre when it hasn't improved in over a decade?

The bar is set pretty low, whereas in epic fantasy RPGs the bar is relatively high.

bagodix:
System Shock, Thief, Max Payne, Deus Ex, BioShock, STALKER... the bar isn't anywhere near low, at least not by game industry standards.

I would personally say that half of those games mentioned have atrocious writing. And since when was the Thief series considered a 'shooter'? Not to mention almost every game you've listed is heavily influenced by RPGs. This isn't a coincidence.

Show me a game out now with better writing, plot and characters.

bagodix:
This line of reasoning doesn't prove that DA has good writing. Being less bad than others isn't the same thing as being good.

You're right, what wacky logic to say that the game with the best writing in the industry has good writing. That's just crazy talk!

Here's my larger point. It was relatively easy to write an adventure game. You could create an entirely linear story, didn't necessarily have to voice all the lines, and could get away with more mistakes and problems. Nowadays we've injected most story-based games with tons and tons of choice, so that each line of dialogue you choose has an impact on every line of dialogue that follows it. In adventure games, however, there was usually a right answer and a few wrong ones - if there was ever any choice at all. It's harder to write for games today because the stories are longer, more complex, and have more outcomes. BioWare is actively tackling the issue of choice in gaming, and each consecutive game of theirs does it better and better.

(why we are even debating with a person with a name like that)

bagodix:
What does my name have to do with this?

Your name is an amalgamation of the phrase "bag of dicks". It's like trying to have a serious discussion with someone wearing a T-shirt that says, well, "BAG OF DICKS".

why the hell was this double posted

AcacianLeaves:
What I'm saying is that games are judged relative to their peers and the state of the market. I'm not saying Grim Fandango wasn't fantastic writing, I'm just saying it's in a completely different genre in a completely different market at a completely different time.

Movies aren't judged like that. Books aren't judged like that. Music isn't judged like that. Why would video games be?

Also notice that every game you've mentioned as having good storytelling is a PC exclusive released 10 or more years ago. This is important in determining where your own opinions come from. I suspect you may be biased against new console games. It's not a bad thing being a nostalgic gamer, it just means that you aren't allowing yourself to enjoy new games simply because you believe the older games were better (despite probably not having played them in the spanning decade).

I played DA on the PC, and it is primarily a PC game. I have no reason to be biased against new games, whether they are console games or not. It's just that more often than not modern games are either shitty or underwhelming.

No, two decades ago it was 1989. Unless Bomberman has some deeper philosophical meaning to its dialogue and writing, I'm not sure I can agree on your incredibly loose definition of 'commonplace'.

This is a common misconception held by people unfamiliar with the history of video games. Adventure games and interactive fiction were in full swing in the eighties, with Infocom leading the way with such games as Zork, A Mind Forever Voyaging and Trinity. Sierra was also at the height of its success, creating the King's Quest, Space Quest and Police Quest series of games. LucasArts released Maniac Mansion, Loom and Monkey Island.

Those are just the well-known games from famous developers, there were of course many others. Adventure games continued to be popular to the mid or late nineties.

What I mean is that the recent, current generation trend in console gaming has been focused on combat and mass genocide rather than adequate storytelling.

The trend has been the opposite.

In one statement you say games haven't had good writing since the days of adventure games, and in the next you tell me that games with good stories have been around for 'over two decades'?

No, I said that games with stories have been around for over two decades. They aren't always good stories.

And while Dragon Age is more or less crafted from the same mold as other BioWare games, this mold has been polished and fine-tuned to a mirror shine. It does everything BioWare games have done previously, true. But it does them much, much better.

Yes, but you said it's a step in the right direction which implies that it's doing something new, when it actually isn't. I consider DA to be BioWare's weakest game since Neverwinter Nights.

No, because DA has tons and tons of reciprocal dialogue and conversations.

So? Doesn't mean any of it is well-written.

Name one actual conversation that takes place between you and the supporting cast in any of the Half Life games. Oh that's right, there aren't any because the entire game consists of people talking at you and telling you what to do. Your character never has a voice. That isn't interactive storytelling.

There are conversations between other characters, and in Half-Life 2 (that includes the Episodes) the dialogue directed at the player does not consist exclusively of orders. Alyx talks and comments quite a lot as you travel with her. Even if Gordon did say things, how would that make the game any more interactive? It wouldn't. But you interact with Alyx a lot. She is constantly with you, and you interact with her through gameplay.

And you still don't understand what good writing is.

It's writing and it moves the plot forward, but it does it in the same way a movie would. I never feel like I'm part of the story in any of Valve's games. I'm just a puppet with a gun being moved along the rail.

I always feel I'm part of the story. Valve's reason for making Gordon a silent protagonist is to make the player feel as if he's Gordon.

In Dragon Age you have a role in how the story works and how things play out, you shape the direction that the writing goes. Just as you would have done in many of those old school adventure games.

Adventure games are typically linear, you don't decide how the story plays out.

This is what I mean when I say its a step in the right direction for this generation of games. BioWare is attempting to give the player an active role in the story of a game, rather than a passive role as in most of the industry.

Standard practise in CRPGs. Nothing new.

Yes, it is. System Shock was successful because of how enormously different it was.

That's completely irrelevant. The point is that it did have actual writing and an actual story.

Did I say that writing was totally new for shooters and has never existed before? No, I said it was 'kind of a new thing'.

It's not "kind of a new thing" if it was already done in 1994 and then many times afterwards.

To this day the best writing I've experienced in any shooter is probably System Shock, and I'd wager you agree with me. What does it say about the writing bar for a genre when it hasn't improved in over a decade?

I don't agree with you. Many other first/third person shooters since System Shock have been well or decently written.

I would personally say that half of those games mentioned have atrocious writing.

Well seeing as how you think DA has great writing, I'm not sure you're a good judge of writing quality.

And since when was the Thief series considered a 'shooter'?

The fact that you shoot a bow rather than a gun is hardly relevant.

Not to mention almost every game you've listed is heavily influenced by RPGs. This isn't a coincidence.

It has nothing to do with their quality of writing.

You're right, what wacky logic to say that the game with the best writing in the industry has good writing. That's just crazy talk!

Daikatana isn't a good game just because it's better than Big Rigs, and DA isn't well-written just because it's better written than some other game.

Here's my larger point. It was relatively easy to write an adventure game. You could create an entirely linear story, didn't necessarily have to voice all the lines, and could get away with more mistakes and problems. Nowadays we've injected most story-based games with tons and tons of choice, so that each line of dialogue you choose has an impact on every line of dialogue that follows it. In adventure games, however, there was usually a right answer and a few wrong ones - if there was ever any choice at all. It's harder to write for games today because the stories are longer, more complex, and have more outcomes. BioWare is actively tackling the issue of choice in gaming, and each consecutive game of theirs does it better and better.

So does this mean that writing a novel is easier than writing a CRPG? What absurd nonsense. Writing a good novel or a good adventure game or a good movie script is very difficult, much more difficult than a story with multiple branches and outcomes. In fact, adding in choices mostly means an increase in workload and problems with logistics rather than a great creative challenge. A novel writer is always considering things like "what if my character does this or what if this happens," but unlike the CRPG writer he has to settle for just one course of events. He could write them all down, whereas the CRPG writer does write them all down.

You said in Half-Life you're just moving along a rail, but Dragon Age has that problem too. You have to play the origin story which is more or less pre-determined, and then you have to join the Grey Wardens and have to do this and that. Fallout (and Fallout 2), on the other hand, can be completed in a matter of minutes if you know precisely what you are doing. You can go anywhere and do anything as soon as the game starts, and you are given more freedom and choices than what you get in BioWare games. Fallout, then, is far closer to the ideal of roleplaying than any BioWare game.

Your name is an amalgamation of the phrase "bag of dicks". It's like trying to have a serious discussion with someone wearing a T-shirt that says, well, "BAG OF DICKS".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Code Monkey:
Morrigan was by far my favourite character. She had the coolest backstory, and she taught me to turn into a demon bear. You don't see Allistair teaching you to be a demon bear. "Whaa, Whaa, I have to be king" I replaced his party slot with my dog.

She did?! Bah...I got her to like me 100%, she still said she'd only teach me if she felt like it, which...she didn't, every time.

As for the OP...or rather, on the story. It was enjoyable, sadly however it lacks a decent villain. The Archdemon itself has so little impact that it turns into little more than an end boss, only capping the game rather than being the force of evil that -should- have been felt throughout despite the glimpses you do get of it occasionally. It was mindless, just like the rest of the Darkspawn.

Though, Loghain somewhat makes up for a compelling foil, he too mostly stays in the background until key moments. But, the greatest sin this game commits above all, is having Tim Curry do voicework and NOT PUTTING HIM IN A PROMINENT ROLE!! There was scenery to be chewed! And they had him playing a mildly evil manservant who commits only a tiny bit of betrayal! Bah...

Uilleand:
- snip -

Thank you for this. I'm glad to see I'm not alone in my love of BioWare's storytelling, and it's heartening to see someone who's made their living with an English degree.

I like how BAGODIX, 12 year old?, seems to feel he understands good writing yet the only example he has actually given us is that Alyx talks to Gordon every now and then...

There are so many endings to this game, so many opportunities for new plot lines that will be left hidden unless you act in certain ways. Even if this is not new it is fantastically laid infton of us.

You are a very small minority here BAGODIX. You seem unwilling to even debate your points. This makes you narrowminded and even worse leads us to believe you are just hating on it because everyone likes it and you think it makes you edgy.

I have played Zork, all of them, I have played the monkey Islands and Sam and Max. I know good writing and I say DA:O has equally or greater immersion. Live with this statement as you are going to keep hearing it.

PS... Name dropping doesnt prove your point. I still havent been given one example of BETTER game writing.

Bretty:
I like how BAGODIX, 12 year old?

You really are an idiot.

seems to feel he understands good writing yet the only example he has actually given us is that Alyx talks to Gordon every now and then...

And you fail at reading comprehension too. I was not trying to provide an example of good writing when talking about Half-Life 2 and Alyx.

You are a very small minority here BAGODIX. You seem unwilling to even debate your points.

You double fail at reading comprehension.

This makes you narrowminded and even worse leads us to believe you are just hating on it because everyone likes it and you think it makes you edgy.

I don't like DA because it's boring, generic and uninspired. It's not interesting in terms of gameplay or narrative. It's inferior to Baldur's Gate II, Jade Empire and Mass Effect.

I have played Zork, all of them, I have played the monkey Islands and Sam and Max. I know good writing and I say DA:O has equally or greater immersion. Live with this statement as you are going to keep hearing it.

What does "immersion" have to do with writing quality?

PS... Name dropping doesnt prove your point.

What name dropping?

I still havent been given one example of BETTER game writing.

I already mentioned Grim Fandango. I also said that Valve has better writing in their games. You triple fail at reading comprehension.

For the sake of brevity and my own disinterest, I'm going to snip out bits that went a bit off topic.

AcacianLeaves:
What I'm saying is that games are judged relative to their peers and the state of the market. I'm not saying Grim Fandango wasn't fantastic writing, I'm just saying it's in a completely different genre in a completely different market at a completely different time.

bagodix:

Movies aren't judged like that. Books aren't judged like that. Music isn't judged like that. Why would video games be?

Really? So every new movie is compared to Citizen Kane? Every new book is judged based on how it holds up to The Great Gatsby? New rock music is compared to Jimi Hendrix? No, they're compared to their contemporary counterparts. New entertainment is judged based on whether or not you should spend your time and money on it, or something better that is on the market. Should you go see X movie this summer, or Y? Should you read X book this week, or Y? Should you buy X album this month, or Y? It's the same with video games. Should you buy Dragon Age this week, or a different new release?

And while Dragon Age is more or less crafted from the same mold as other BioWare games, this mold has been polished and fine-tuned to a mirror shine. It does everything BioWare games have done previously, true. But it does them much, much better.

bagodix:

Yes, but you said it's a step in the right direction which implies that it's doing something new, when it actually isn't. I consider DA to be BioWare's weakest game since Neverwinter Nights.

Imagine that, you consider a new game to be weaker than a much older game. As I've said many times, the 'new' thing its doing is integrating player choice into the storytelling more than any game before it.

Name one actual conversation that takes place between you and the supporting cast in any of the Half Life games. Oh that's right, there aren't any because the entire game consists of people talking at you and telling you what to do. Your character never has a voice. That isn't interactive storytelling.

bagodix:

There are conversations between other characters, and in Half-Life 2 (that includes the Episodes) the dialogue directed at the player does not consist exclusively of orders. Alyx talks and comments quite a lot as you travel with her. Even if Gordon did say things, how would that make the game any more interactive? It wouldn't. But you interact with Alyx a lot. She is constantly with you, and you interact with her through gameplay.

And you still don't understand what good writing is.

No matter what you do, you will never have a real impact on the story in Half Life 2. You are forced into a role that has been decided for you by the writers and designers. I'm not saying its bad writing, I'm just saying the player is not a part of the story. This is what people mean when they say they enjoy BioWare games for their story and writing. It's not something that occurs enough in gaming, and specifically in the RPG genre. In Half Life, I'm just a floating camera with guns observing other people. The other people are quite life-like, but I'm still just a cameraman who isn't allowed to speak. In Dragon Age, I feel like my character actually exists in the world. Its two completely different kinds of writing, like a children's novel vs. a choose your own adventure book.

This is what I mean when I say its a step in the right direction for this generation of games. BioWare is attempting to give the player an active role in the story of a game, rather than a passive role as in most of the industry.

bagodix:

Standard practise in CRPGs. Nothing new.

Not to this extent. The new thing that Dragon Age brings to the table is the level of impact you have on the world around you, and specifically the characters. In most RPGs everything is measured on a morality scale, or you're given one or two choices to make in the game that will influence how a companion will view you. In Dragon Age nearly every decision you're presented with changes how your companions, and the other characters in the world, view you. This is what BioWare does well. Choice driven gameplay and stories. Rather than one or two choices, you have hundreds and each one has an impact on the game.

I would personally say that half of those games mentioned have atrocious writing.

bagodix:

Well seeing as how you think DA has great writing, I'm not sure you're a good judge of writing quality.

Seeing as how you think Max Payne has good writing, I could say the same for you. Funny how opinions work, isn't it?

You're right, what wacky logic to say that the game with the best writing in the industry has good writing. That's just crazy talk!

bagodix:

Daikatana isn't a good game just because it's better than Big Rigs, and DA isn't well-written just because it's better written than some other game.

No, DA is well written for many reasons. You have yet to give any supporting statement to argue the contrary. Many people have praised the game for its writing. I'm not saying it has the best writing in the industry today, that's a pretty popular opinion judging from the articles and reviews I've read.

Here's my larger point. It was relatively easy to write an adventure game. You could create an entirely linear story, didn't necessarily have to voice all the lines, and could get away with more mistakes and problems. Nowadays we've injected most story-based games with tons and tons of choice, so that each line of dialogue you choose has an impact on every line of dialogue that follows it. In adventure games, however, there was usually a right answer and a few wrong ones - if there was ever any choice at all. It's harder to write for games today because the stories are longer, more complex, and have more outcomes. BioWare is actively tackling the issue of choice in gaming, and each consecutive game of theirs does it better and better.

bagodix:

So does this mean that writing a novel is easier than writing a CRPG? What absurd nonsense. Writing a good novel or a good adventure game or a good movie script is very difficult, much more difficult than a story with multiple branches and outcomes. In fact, adding in choices mostly means an increase in workload and problems with logistics rather than a great creative challenge. A novel writer is always considering things like "what if my character does this or what if this happens," but unlike the CRPG writer he has to settle for just one course of events. He could write them all down, whereas the CRPG writer does write them all down.

Writing a novel is more difficult than writing a game for many reasons, choice is the least of them. We aren't talking about that, we're discussing linear games vs. choice driven games. It's the 'settling for just one course of events' that makes it easier to write a linear game. The writers have to come up with different outcomes, dialogue trees, and character actions that make sense - for nearly every choice being made. You illustrate a good point with the example of the novel writer, though. He could write down all of the different plot points and outcomes that he's imagined in his head, but he doesn't because it would be too difficult and take an insane amount of time and effort. He chooses what he feels is the best one and goes from there.

bagodix:

You said in Half-Life you're just moving along a rail, but Dragon Age has that problem too. You have to play the origin story which is more or less pre-determined, and then you have to join the Grey Wardens and have to do this and that. Fallout (and Fallout 2), on the other hand, can be completed in a matter of minutes if you know precisely what you are doing. You can go anywhere and do anything as soon as the game starts, and you are given more freedom and choices than what you get in BioWare games. Fallout, then, is far closer to the ideal of roleplaying than any BioWare game.

"And then you have to do this and that" indeed. You used that phrase because you didn't feel like listing the hundreds upon hundreds of choices that can change the outcome and story of the game. It destroys your argument. You make no choices in Half Life 2, and no matter what you do the game plays through more or less the same way every time.

I kind of agree with you with Fallout 2 though. Would be damn awesome to create a modern game with that kind of scope and openness. The problem isn't just one of writing though, it's writing, voicing, programming, designing, drawing, and modeling on a level infinitely more complex than what was necessary when Fallout 2 was released. Writers today are limited in what they can do based on the other aspects of the game. You can only write what its feasibly possible to produce.

Your name is an amalgamation of the phrase "bag of dicks". It's like trying to have a serious discussion with someone wearing a T-shirt that says, well, "BAG OF DICKS".

bagodix:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Yes, and what does it say about a person who specifically chooses a name that they know will incite someone to not take them seriously, just so they can invoke Ad hominem? I'll tell you what it says. It says "I am a troll, please feed me." Whether or not that's true about you, I don't know. But that's how your name presents you. Also Ad Hominem is not always a fallacy. The husband having an affair will lie about it, the 9 year old probably doesn't know advanced calculus, and the man wearing a dildo as a hat probably shouldn't be consulted for dating advice.

Ultimately we're talking about opinions here, and it's clear that you disagree with the majority - which is fine. Just try to understand your own reasons for your opinion. Are you biased against new games for some reason? Are you biased against BioWare for some reason? Are you being contradictory just for the sake of being contradictory? I mean, you haven't exactly presented a well thought out argument as to why you consider Dragon Age's writing to be bad. You just state it as if it were a fact and we're all fools for thinking otherwise. You can't really blame me for thinking you're biased against it for some reason.

Is it the best writing in video game history? No, I wouldn't go that far. I'd say it's the best written BioWare game thus far, and I'd say its the most interactive story I've experienced in gaming. The characters, while not as deep or complex as I would like, are nicely layered and it's a fun adventure trying to peel back the layers to see what their story is. The relationships work and the dialogue is written and acted in a believable way. I especially enjoyed the conversations my companions would have when following me around. It's also the first game I've played with 'romance' subplots where the romance doesn't seem forced and awkward.

...just as a quick aside re: writing. I'm not sure if Mr. 'Dix' has actually spent any time playing the game in question ... or what, exactly, this opinion is based on (perhaps just the perception that the genre itself is a tad cliche? Or that the setting/plot is overdone?) Maybe it is. But that's what tropes are all about. Cliche's become cliches because they work. They're a shorthand to highlight certain issues and conflicts. The genius of the writing in Dragon Age is in your interactions with the people around you.
It's like...the exact opposite of Oblivion for me. Oblivion had some amazing concepts, some new settings, some new politics in the genre. But I never finished that game. I just didn't *care* about a single person. No-one reacted to my character in an interesting way. No-one appreciated my contributions, or recoiled in horror because of my evil deeds.
No-one travelled with me, fought by my side, loved me, hated me, betrayed me or sacrificed their life for me.
Dragon Age gave me ALL of those things...
When I was rushing up against the final battle (admittedly against a common fantasy trope), my Elven mage was heading to certain death, sure of it, accepting of it, and pushed to a place where 'noble suicide' looked like the very BEST of all options available. Even then, my husband happened to walk by the computer room as I stared at my screen, shouting "YOU F*CKER!!! F*cker!! F*ucker!!". (Fortunately he married me already knowing I'm a nutbar.)
I was GUTTED by the ending I found myself at. A friend of mine was LIVID when her game ended. (She may or may not be in the process of writing nasty letters to BioWare.) But the thing is, the story - the characters - they *affected* us. And to be moved by a story, no matter what the medium, is really the hallmark of good entertainment, and certainly of good writing.
I'd suggest that you actually *play* through the story before judging it's worthiness, but I get the feeling it wouldn't matter much to you. Your mind is already made up, yes?
Perhaps it might be a better use of your time, then, to play a game you'll enjoy and discuss it elsewhere?

Is it turn based fighting kind of like baldurs gate or something? Looking for a game to buy was thinking I might get this.

nice review, though i disagree on the ending, i was so disappointed that after 60+ hours of running around doing all kinds of good deeds (except knocking up a party member whit the Antichrist) i was left whit an series of text boxes that all ended whit "or did they""or as far as we know" or "but no one knows/can be certain" i wanted some fucking closure, pardon my French, not just an excuse for them to make more dlc, i don't mind dlc but it shouldn't get in the way of my experience, i don't necessarily want a "and they lived happily ever after" but thats not the only way to end a story, they could at least have done it without all the question marks.

...or could they?

EDIT: oh and of you want to play real time they got you covered, just play on easy, you will need to pause in boss fights, but other than that the tactics menu got you covered, and even if you don't want to play in real time i will still advise you to play in easy, the combat gets a little boring when fighting canon fodder, youll quickly find an very effective way to deal whit them and after that they just feel like grinding, but it shines at the boss battles, despite the fact i often got my ass handed to me, i loved them.

...or did i?

AcacianLeaves:
Really? So every new movie is compared to Citizen Kane? Every new book is judged based on how it holds up to The Great Gatsby? New rock music is compared to Jimi Hendrix? No, they're compared to their contemporary counterparts.

New games, movies, books and albums are compared to older ones, if it's appropriate to do so.

New entertainment is judged based on whether or not you should spend your time and money on it, or something better that is on the market. Should you go see X movie this summer, or Y? Should you read X book this week, or Y? Should you buy X album this month, or Y? It's the same with video games. Should you buy Dragon Age this week, or a different new release?

This is a very shallow way of looking at things.

Imagine that, you consider a new game to be weaker than a much older game.

New != better. I have become fed up with modern games because their quality just keeps getting lower and lower.

As I've said many times, the 'new' thing its doing is integrating player choice into the storytelling more than any game before it.

Today I realized one thing that annoyed me about Dragon Age: you are railroaded through events and locations, and your choices are explicitly presented in the form of "here are your options, pick one." In Fallout you are immediately able to go anywhere and do anything, and there aren't neon signs pointing at plot points, recruitable characters and quests. There's a much greater sense of just happening to discover things by yourself. There's often a similiar feeling in Chrono Trigger.

Being railroaded through a choose-your-own-adventure story isn't what CRPGs should be working towards.

No matter what you do, you will never have a real impact on the story in Half Life 2. You are forced into a role that has been decided for you by the writers and designers. I'm not saying its bad writing, I'm just saying the player is not a part of the story.

This is irrelevant and has nothing to do with whether or not the game is well-written. And just because the player is unable to affect the outcome doesn't mean he isn't part of the story.

In Half Life, I'm just a floating camera with guns observing other people. The other people are quite life-like, but I'm still just a cameraman who isn't allowed to speak. In Dragon Age, I feel like my character actually exists in the world.

Half-Life's idea is that you are Gordon Freeman. Instead of speaking you interact with the world in other ways, and the game doesn't tell you how you should be feeling or what you should be thinking. It's complete immersion.

Its two completely different kinds of writing, like a children's novel vs. a choose your own adventure book.

Lol? Half-Life is on the level of a children's novel just because you don't have dialogue options?

Not to this extent. The new thing that Dragon Age brings to the table is the level of impact you have on the world around you, and specifically the characters. In most RPGs everything is measured on a morality scale, or you're given one or two choices to make in the game that will influence how a companion will view you. In Dragon Age nearly every decision you're presented with changes how your companions, and the other characters in the world, view you. This is what BioWare does well. Choice driven gameplay and stories. Rather than one or two choices, you have hundreds and each one has an impact on the game.

BioWare has done all this before, and so have other developers.

Seeing as how you think Max Payne has good writing, I could say the same for you. Funny how opinions work, isn't it?

You don't even understand the concept of good writing, so how could you recognize good writing when you see it?

No, DA is well written for many reasons.

Even if it is, that's beside the point, which is that your logic is flawed.

Writing a novel is more difficult than writing a game for many reasons, choice is the least of them. We aren't talking about that, we're discussing linear games vs. choice driven games. It's the 'settling for just one course of events' that makes it easier to write a linear game. The writers have to come up with different outcomes, dialogue trees, and character actions that make sense - for nearly every choice being made. You illustrate a good point with the example of the novel writer, though. He could write down all of the different plot points and outcomes that he's imagined in his head, but he doesn't because it would be too difficult and take an insane amount of time and effort. He chooses what he feels is the best one and goes from there.

It's not easy to write a good linear story. It's infinitely harder than writing a mediocre story with choices. A story isn't good just because it has choices.

"And then you have to do this and that" indeed. You used that phrase because you didn't feel like listing the hundreds upon hundreds of choices that can change the outcome and story of the game. It destroys your argument.

I was obviously referring to the fact that you are forced to do so many things.

You make no choices in Half Life 2, and no matter what you do the game plays through more or less the same way every time.

And...?

Yes, and what does it say about a person who specifically chooses a name that they know will incite someone to not take them seriously, just so they can invoke Ad hominem?

That's a nice conspiracy theory you've got there, but I think a more likely explanation is that I just randomly chose some bullshit user name without any ulterior motives.

I'll tell you what it says. It says "I am a troll, please feed me."

Forum user names: serious business.

Also Ad Hominem is not always a fallacy.

In this case it is.

I mean, you haven't exactly presented a well thought out argument as to why you consider Dragon Age's writing to be bad.

It just is. I know bad or mediocre writing when I see it.

Uilleand:
I'd suggest that you actually *play* through the story before judging it's worthiness, but I get the feeling it wouldn't matter much to you. Your mind is already made up, yes?

I'm so bored by DA that I have no reason to play through it.

Perhaps it might be a better use of your time, then, to play a game you'll enjoy and discuss it elsewhere?

This is the user reviews forum, not the user fanboys forum.

Dodging the intense word war thats going on here....

Good review. I greatly enjoyed the game, and was also a bit disappointed at the graphics but the overall scope of the story made up for it.

And now my two cents into the word war:

bagodix:
It just is. I know bad or mediocre writing when I see it.

Opinions differ. Some like it, some don't. You obviously did not enjoy this game, which is fine, but this kind of makes it sound like your word is law, which is not true.

I really enjoyed your review.
Thanks!

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