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On the Record  Posts: 6473 Joined: 24 Apr 2008     | |
On the Record  Posts: 5674 Joined: 2 Dec 2007    | This is why The Joker is the best villan ever. He can't stop grinning. Plus he has no morals, values or goals. He just wants anarchy. Not the V for vendetta type either; the pure set the world alight anarchy. |
On the Record Posts: 6473 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 | Thats the thing, Evil is about changing the status quo irreparably. He says it himself... "But i threaten to kill one little mayor and they go crazy" (go ahead and correct me, you know you want to) The Joker is basically the villain handbook personified, he is a pariah because he knows laws are immaterial and they only apply to him if he wants them to. Like 'Carcer' from Terry Pratchetts 'Night Watch', the true horror of a villain is in their knowledge that there is nothing stopping any of us from killing the man next to you. Nothing. The Joker takes his true evil further by not just being broken but breaking others as well. He burns money because he knows that money is worthless unless all people believe in the lie that it has value. Unless everyone agrees to put imaginary worth into money its just paper. He says it himself. "Its about sending a message... everything burns" For this reason im writing up a new point in my Villains guide 3) Break Rules, Big ones Rules like 'don't steal' aren't badass to break. They just make you naughty. Evil breaks rules nobody else would break. Like 'Dont Snap And Bite The Face Off A Fellow Train Passenger' EXAMPLE: Hannibal Lector isn't just bad... he's evil. He knows that until he is physically stopped... there is nothing stopping him. One aging man is more terrifying than someone like Lex Luthor, The Green Goblin or Abomination. Hannibal is simply pure evil because he's a square peg in a round hole. Evil is not just the breaking of rules, but acting like there are no rules, like there is nothing stopping you from doing what you want apart from the abilities of other individuals. This is scary... this is evil... because its true. "Hmmmm" Says Darth Athrix "Than does that make Sith Evil?" Because Athrix still plays by rules, he doesn't god-mode in his RP (despite whining from victims) he doesn't simply say, i stab you. Athrix grins, he schemes... but he has limits. The Joker is scary because you know for sure that if they ever make a sequel... he will be so much more evil. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 507 Joined: 2 Jul 2008     |
I think you would enjoy the work of the Sex Pistols. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3777 Joined: 18 Dec 2007    | Wrong thread. Should be in Off-Topic I think... or maybe not... please don't kill me. Best villian ever, Horus. Why? He's Satan in Power Armor! You can't get cooler than that. |
On the Record Posts: 6473 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 |
Given that this is RP related (as in, what do you find makes a good villain in RP's and movies) i thought it best to put it here, feel free to discuss villains from RP's in here, that was originally my plan. And Horus brings up a good point 4) Fall From Grace, Contrast Is Awesome Harvey Dent, Green Goblin, Lex Luthor, Horus, Fulgrim. Evil is the lack of the qualities we idolize. So suddenly turning up evil is nowhere near as impressive as going from the mountains of heaven to the basements of hell. I Always look to Fulgrim as the ultimate example of this, i found the book entitled after him in the Horus Heresy series to be the best so far plot-wise, the fall of the emperors most perfect to perhaps chaos' most debased is truly wicked. "That's Me!" Says Athrix "You left clues to my past all ove-" Fall from grace, it makes you landing more impressive. So, we have 4 points on the road to villainy... any more? |
On the Record Posts: 5674 Joined: 2 Dec 2007 | Is Satan evil for standing up to something he believed in? I wouldn't think so. It wasn't so much a 'fall from grace' more so he was pushed. Like an action movie, he's just given back what he got. But then again, he makes stuff bad (unless that's all propergander by God?!?). |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1058 Joined: 2 Jul 2008    |
*Puts Theological hat on...it's a big hat, big enough to have the word Philosophy written all the way up it..* Right then, this WILL end up relevant, I thought I'd just get this done first; Lucifer's original 'sin', I do believe, was one of arrogance - if I recall correctly, he, and the other angels, were requested to bow down to Man. Obviously, Lucifer being the winged judge of doom and revenge that he already is, found this a little patronising, and flat out refused. This, seeding doubt in Lucifer's mind, caused him to spark off a rebellion against God (which, in the end, is utterly retarded - if he is omniscient and omnipresent then he already knows you're going to rebel), which he lost, and for his utterly retarded plan (or it could have been the rejection and rebellion, I know which one I would banish for) was sent to Hell, where he takes on the mantle of Satan. Right - Arrogance; I would have to say that out of all the faults you can have in a villian, that complete and utter arrogance is the worst you can have. Comparison; The conflict of Darth Vader, The arrogance of Anakin Skywalker; ""It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now." " "YOU'RE JEALOUS OF MY POWWWWEEERRRR *slit wrist, slit wrist*" One shows character depth, inner conflict and makes us actually sympathise with the villain (I'll get on to why that is great in a second), the other shows an angst-ridden boy who chucked his rattle out of the pram and is demanding it be returned. Which brings us on to; relation, immersion and sympathy; What I find truly disgusts the viewer is not, for example, when the Joker cuts the mafia-man a new smile, or when Harvey dent's liquor falls out the side of his face, but when they genuinely sympathise with the villain's ideals; Society imposes rules, guidelines, mantras and routines for every part of our lives, and we cling to this like a security blanket - if we have a purpose then we know where we are in the world, and the same boring routine gives us that purpose. So take a Villian like the Joker, who utterly rejects any form of order, and them make the Joker a person who on the inside is a troubled, lonely boy more than a raging psychopath, and the viewer can be disgusted with themselves more than the Joker when they find they sympathise with him - we feel that we aren't allowed to see anything of ourselves in the villain, and when we do it can terrify us. I would say the truly powerful villain in media, RPs etc., is not one that you have to hate because the script is trying to force you to, but one you hate for a personal reason, or one you sympathise with on that same level of depth - immersion in the plot is much more important than how many cocks he can chop off with one swing of the machete. So, in many ways, the best thing you can do with your villain, is make him all the things that he is expected to be, but more importantly, make him vulnerable, make him conflicted - make him likeable |
On the Record Posts: 6473 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 | On that well reasoned note! 5) If They Like You, They Might Like You. As excellently surmised above (although i'm not sure about the joker, i'm sure everything he mentioned in his past is a lie, he has almost 3 different stories in the film), Villains are more likable when we like them. Because then we feel dirty. As i reflect on the worship i have dealt out to Lector i feel a bit wrong for endorsing the efforts of a man who eats people... You want to see what a Villain does, What a villain becomes... if you like him. He can be a fun guy, he can be an intriguing enigma, he can be a relatable victim of circumstance, he can even be the protagonist fallen from grace. But be warned, Evil is separation from the norm, a Villain can be likable, but not lovable... You can respect Vader, you wouldn't want to meet him (Ok, so we would, but we always have to add... "And survive said meeting"). |
On the Record Posts: 5674 Joined: 2 Dec 2007 | An angel bowing down to a human would be like a human bowing to an insect. I wouldn't, but then there's a big flaming pit waiting for me if I don't. I don't know, the mythology is all screwed up for me. As for Loki however, he tricked a god to kill his brother. That's evil! |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1058 Joined: 2 Jul 2008 |
What I meant about the Joker is that the frequently mentioned theme is that the Joker really is alone - not even Batman is really like him, despite being his polar opposite and therefore as much of an outcast as him. All the scenes with him sticking his head out the car door like a dog, the way he walks etc. is all very childish, so I get a large impression of him being a lonely child inside a psychopaths head. Even with Hannibal, if we don't sympathise we are always fascinated with him. Of course we can't really love them, we can barely like them in the way we like a small kitten, for example, but that level of connection can be both terrifying and endearing to the reader/viewer. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1282 Joined: 1 Jun 2008   | A truely great villian must be smarter than you. Let us look to The Joker. Any one of the mobsters who hired him could have done the exact same thing to take down the Batman. None of them did. Why? Because on a basic level, they were incapable of approaching the issue from any angle other than brute force. You kill Batman by shooting him and if he hasn't been shot he's not defeated. The Joker understood that it was unnessacary and far more complicated to fight Batman. Batman can be beaten through the simple expedient of killing the myth. You make him into a monster and then you make the monster a man and what's left? Not a hero. A truely great villian understands that punching and kicking is what happens when I plan stops working not a plan in and of itself. A truely great villian is fighting on an intellectual level while all the heroes are fighting with their silly peices of pipe. Returning to the Joker analogy I remember the quote from the final battle between him and Batman. "Do you really think I would risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fist fight with you?" The superior villian plans ahead and counts on the fact that no one else will. He can be physically beaten, but he is never really beaten because he's fighting on a level the hero hasn't even begun to fathom. That is a super villian. A hero will defend every base he has with full force. A villian will attack the one base that compromises the heroes defense with exactly the force that is nessacary. Eery intelligence is a must for a truely epic bad guy. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2355 Joined: 14 Sep 2007    | I'd also add the Dragon from 'Guards! Guards!'. Admittedly, the only reason the Dragon came to the city was because someone dragged it out of its own realm, it came back and took over the city. What makes the Dragon evil isn't that it very much wants human life to end, it just doesn't care. To the Dragon, humans are just a bunch of self-important, filthy apes who think that 'human nature' is something to justify the murder of their own kind. We don't pose any threat to it, either. In the book, it gets attacked by an army of people with bows and arrows, the wizards of Ankh-Morpork tossing spells at it, gets caught in the explosion of a brewery and get in the way of a sonic boom (causing it to crash into several buildings) without dying. I'd say being indifferent to the pain of a sentient race is pretty evil, eh' Ultrajoe? |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1058 Joined: 2 Jul 2008 |
I do hope that this is going to be in your RP, because it is very true. Very rarely is the real villian the muscle - the true SUPER Villian is calculating, smart, and one step ahead of the hero...he has to be for there to be a plot twist :P |
On the Record Posts: 6473 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 | phew, this is getting a bit crowded, let me catch up. 6) Smart People Are Scary, Librarians Doubly So You can hit me all you want, how do you know its not what i want. Jigsaw was evil, not because he hurt someone, but because he could and did. Evil, as stated, is when someone goes beyond or below what we think of as normal and uses that difference for malevolent pursuits. Knowledge is power, People are creatures of struggle, we seek routine against such constants as work, life, food and law. When someone plays with these, its fucking scary, its terrifying. When your actions may not be your own and every attempt to combat the evil is another part of his scheme... well... its not nice. Its Evil. When something as alien to civilization as a group as intelligence and forethought appears in an opposition, it is beyond our control, it has us by the balls and squeezes. Thats all a Supervillian, a mega-evil is... a force fr change and an intellect capable of taking control. Be alien to the goodies, be more than just a human with needs, be the pariah that is the genius. 7) Dont Die, You look Weak People are creatures of impulse. Individually we make plans and schemes... But on a whole we are a screaming monkey with a gun, we hit the bad and make love to the good. When the bad puts on bulletproof armor or simply rises from the dead... well... its not good. If you cant swat a mosquito... what the hell can you do? If you cant kill it... you cant reason with it... WHAT DO YOU DO? JESUS CHRIST WHAT THE HELL DO YOU DO? Now imagine it's not a mosquito. Now imagine its a man with a chainsaw, or a razor-clawed glove. We know that these 2 are scary, pants soiled as children are testament to Freddy Krueger and his kind's ability to freak out. Without our ability to take control, to assert ourselves... we can only pick 'flight' from 'fight or flight'... and that means fear. That means they have control... and like the Intelligent, we fear that which controls us, that is beyond us... Evil is being outside what we expect, beyond what we can control... Killing is our most tested method of control... take it away and we are helpless, you are beyond us, above us... Evil... |
On the Record Posts: 6473 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 |
Lack of empathy was covered under 'Grin Inappropriately' And the dragon surviving was a million to one chance, just unlucky i guess. (good to meet a fellow pratchett fan, shame the great man has Alzheimer's, but he's still writing!) |
On the Record Posts: 5674 Joined: 2 Dec 2007 | My Evil Yet Not evil list: |
On the Record  Posts: 7329 Joined: 23 Dec 2007   |
Done and done. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1368 Joined: 27 Jan 2008     | One of my favorite villains of all time is What I loved is the fact that even after learning of his plot, I still couldn't convince myself that he hadn't done the right thing. Sure, it's somewhat of a unique situation among baddies, but if you can't really find it within yourself to call the antagonist a villain, I consider it an accomplishment. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1303 Joined: 19 Jun 2008   | Here are three things that I like in a villan 1.They have no face: Whether they wear a mask all the time or they literally lost thier face in a traffic collision with Mars or some such bollocks, villians that have no face are just badass. Look at Jason, sure, he technically has a face, and we see it for about 15 seconds every movie, but the hockey mask is his face, or lack therof. 2.They have a kickass theme song:This is one that I see spairingly in modern cinema, but if a villian has some awesome music going along with his evil scheming, I nearly go to tears. 3.They have good dress sense: This usually goes with mortal villians, but a villian has class when they can destroy the space-time continuim in a nice suit. Supervillians, however, tend to go more flashy with costumes. Yes, Batman might have an arch-enemy who wears a suit made out of onions, but unless they dress as nicely as the Joker, they can die a slow, horrible death for all I care. |
On the Record Posts: 6473 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 | Someone resurrected this? Im touched. *Looks back at horrific writing above* How did i spit that crap out? Oh dear lord i wrote like a dying cow! |
Beat Writer  Posts: 188 Joined: 23 Sep 2008    | Its truly awe-inspiring to see such wonderous insight into the world of quote-unquote "Evil". However, there is another idea to look at, if I may be so bold as to point it out without sounding pretentious or repeating an idea. Idealogy One could always take the argument that Good and Evil are merely perspectives, the path chosen by the individual, sometimes creaing paradoxes. For example, (I know that you don't consider petty theft really evil, but it fits for my example) is theft of food committed by a pennyless single mother worth trying, or is it justified? What about the conglomerate of corporations that weave completely inside the law, albeit through loopholes, to undermine the system and get their way? They are doing heinous acts, but are not technically disobeying any laws. Are they evil, or just dicks? Just trying to contribute, all above statements are opinions and thoughts expressed by ObadiahBlack. If you took the time to read, I humbly thank you. |
On the Record Posts: 7329 Joined: 23 Dec 2007 |
Ahem. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2843 Joined: 1 Feb 2008  | As I am currently writing a villain--she might actually be the first real villain, as opposed to merely destructive person, I've ever written--I've been thinking about this quite a lot. They can get into your head. They use "good" emotions in terrible ways. |
On the Record Posts: 6473 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 | They Make You Cringe Nothing makes a villain evil like turning your head away from the screen. Beyond human, cruelty in blood and death speaks to us of something monstrous. Disgust your audience, and they know for a fact your one sick son of a bitch. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 824 Joined: 22 Mar 2008    |
Oh, you'll pay for that comment Ultrajoe. Dont think you wont pay! Also, Side Show Bob is a great example of a villain I think. |
On the Record Posts: 6473 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 |
Hey, that comment is ancient, i don't even remember typing it! Who necromancied this anyway? And Side-show Bob is not so much a villain as a 'bad-guy', he has some villainy traits, but nothing that makes him inhuman. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 824 Joined: 22 Mar 2008 |
You'll still pay though, and eventually I shall strike... Tense dramatic music aside, if Side Show Bob wasnt any sort of villain then Bart would have died so many times before, and Bob would be living on some island in Caribu. Oh well, every villain has their flaws. But yes, he isnt a perfect villain. Norman Bates is though. =D |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1659 Joined: 7 Mar 2008  | As a writer, there are three types of villans I use. 1) The Crusader 2) The Madman 3) The Fallen So what do I like about villans...I guess I don't, really. Not the over the top "I WILL RULE THE WORLD!" sort of villans, anyway. I don't think that a person should not care what's right and what's wrong is if something in their mind or heart is broken. Call me optimistic. Apologies Abound. |
On the Record Posts: 6473 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 |
My faith in you plummets. Bat-shit insane is far more compelling. |
On the Record  Posts: 5175 Joined: 3 Mar 2008    | I like anti-villains. The sort of people who do villainous things for noble causes. A bit like Lloyd from Legend of Dragoon.
He slaughtered heaps of people, stole a bunch of rare and priceless artifacts, started wars, took control of an empire (with the help of a bandit league), manipulated people, kidnapped the main character's girlfriend (twice), and sent your party on a wild goose chase around the world. Why? Because he was told he was the one to awaken the God of Salvation. He does redeem himself, but that's neither here nor there. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1659 Joined: 7 Mar 2008 |
In my mind, there has to be a reason why the person is doing what they're doing. Bat-shit insane usually doesn't cover that (although when it does, it does it exceedingly well) Apologies for the confusion. |
Pulitzer Laureate Posts: 824 Joined: 22 Mar 2008 | Maybe some SHODAN is called for? |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 663 Joined: 27 Aug 2008    | To be evil you need to have a defining flaw in your character. Treated as a misfit. The best villians though, are remorsless ones, biding thier time and using physcological warfare on thier foes. A great example of this is the Joker's plan in "The Dark Knight", when he gave each boat the trigger for the other. That was fucking inspired. Oh, and don't monologue. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3587 Joined: 6 Aug 2008 | You have to like fire. A lot. |
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Now, it wont surprise the majority of the escapists to learn that i like villains.
(or perhaps it will, ive been gone 3 weeks, i get back, there's game-lympics going on and i have these weird badge things... is purple rain still here?)
I love the bad guys, the playing of, the playing against, the creation of... and so i've decided to create a thread for the discussion of these true workhorses of the RP industry.
And so i've decide- AARGHgAHGAHAGAHaG
*drip*
Mind the blood folks, Ultrajoe bleeds like a stuck pig. Oh, he's not dead, he's not your average joe, remember.
My name is Darth Athrix, and whether you like me or not as a villain, im going to serve as OP for a thread i feel at home in. So here i want to talk with you about whatever you think makes a better asshole. Starting with some helpful tips that can help any villain make skin creep.
1) Grin Inappropriately:
Evil is about empathy... and the lack of it, think of all the truly great baddies... in fact, any good villain... What they lacked was empathy. The Joker? Grin-city. Hannibal? (Anthony Hopkin's version) Grin-zilla.
A grin when brandishing a weapon or when the normal man (or woman) would baulk shows a complete lack of empathy. It makes you evil. Every time.
EXAMPLE:
"Oh Pete... i cant believe it, my son john was shot walking to school!" She screamed in emotional agony."
"Thats... thats terrible" Pete responded
NOW LETS EVIL IT UP, ATHRIX STYLE!
"Oh Pete... i cant believe it, my son john was shot walking to school!" She screamed in emotional agony."
"Thats... thats terrible" Pete responded, grinning.
Instant evil!!!!!
2) Only a poor Sith deals in Absolutes.
Being evil is about emulating behaviors your 'goodies' abhor.
So get illogical, heres the Athrix guide to any task.
Part a) Identify your goal
Part b) Identify the most indirect and elaborate way to achieve this
Part c) Do it... while grinning.
Need to kill a man? no, don't shoot him! suck his organs out of his face!
Need to kill the batman? (i know he didn't actually want to kill the batman, but it serves as an example)
Need to overthrow the senate and create an empire?
Need to destroy smurf-town and violate smurfette? (it was gonna happen, you all knew it)
The best thing is, your audience wont see you as stupid and roundabout... they will be impressed! Suspense builds, intelligence blossoms and you separate yourself from the audience... who are good... making you... EVIL!
So... what things do you find make a good villain... what makes them the baddie, and not just superman covered in red kryptonite?
If you post, i might just spare the Ultra Joe!