Brexit Negotiations

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I'm curious how the Brexit Negotiations are being reported outside of the UK, if at all. For the record I voted remain and Brexit has already harmed my business, but I believe that we need to get on with it rather than waiting our time trying to force a 2nd referendum or trying to stealthily remain in the EU or any of the other things that are said about remainers.

Over here what I'm seeing is that the EU side is just not trying to negotiate, throwing out weird things like saying we have to discuss how the Irish Border would work before discussing how trade and migration will work in general between the UK and the EU. You can't create an exception to the rule before you've made the rule in the first place.

Or the fact that they are insisting on discussing the 'divorce bill' before anything else. Apparently the British side has been told legally they don't need to pay anything, but are willing to pay as a sign of good will and a desire to work with the EU in the future. To me that sounds like something that should be decided at the end, something to say if we work together and get a good deal we'll pay you the money. Seems to me like the EU is wanting the UK to give up one of its better bargaining chips at the start of the negotiations.

The stuff I've seen over here just seems to be painting the EU as not wanting to negotiate, saying things must go exactly how they want with no discussion, exactly to their schedule. I'm sure the media in EU countries is probably painting the UK in the same negative light so I'm just curious.

The Northern Ireland border is trivial. No, wait... It's part of the Good Friday Agreement and convinced nationalists and unionists to stop kneecapping each other. Throw them under a bus and don't worry about a possible Troubles v2.0. No, wait... The Democratic Unionist Party could call for a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister, the opposition would eagerly join in, the Conservative party lacks a majority and the government falls.

Maybe the UK can legally walk away from the financial commitments it made as part of the EU but that's not moral and certainly not good for the rest of the EU. To avoid the UK signing a trade deal but then walking out of divorce payments, the EU is demanding the divorce settlement first. The EU is acting in it's own interests.

The EU is indeed strong-arming the UK. After numerous demands for exceptions to social policy by threatening Brexit and not helping with the Euro currency crisis, the UK has few friends in the EU.

I would also like to know outsider perception of Brexit, but I don't think it'll be favourable.

We aren't really talking about it anymore here in the People's Republic of Cuckistan. Too much local news in the form of federal politics, the Quebec illegal immigrant crisis, the fact Quebec's Nazi party is at 18% popular support (up from 10% at the election) and rising as our nationalist party is bleeding its support into them and our right wing party, and American politics in general.

Bobular:
Apparently the British side has been told legally they don't need to pay anything...

The British government has declared it doesn't need to pay anything? Funny, that.

(In a way, I kind of agree with the UK government. These sorts of treaties basically decide what the law is - it's all up for negotiation. Although even if not legally required, it could be considered that the UK has financial responsibilities that it would be honourable to pay.)

Over here what I'm seeing is that the EU side is just not trying to negotiate...

Okay, let us pause for a moment. The EU complains it does not really know what the UK wants from Brexit to negotiate with. Now, they might be lying for political effect. However, I am a highly politically aware Briton, and I do not know what my government is looking for from Brexit. I can read businesses and the CBI saying they do not know what the government is trying to achieve from Brexit. I look to politicians, and much is a load of vague, hypothetical platitudes. I see cabinet ministers disagreeing with each other about what the UK wants and needs. That EU claim looks pretty plausible to me.

Perhaps, just maybe, the problem with negotiations is that the UK government really doesn't even know. The Irish border is a great example, and no surprise it's been flagged up early. It is a huge fucking issue (See Warmachine's post above) for peace and security, where the EU has to represent Ireland as one of its member states. What's interesting about it is the total absence of a sensible answer from the UK about how it could maintain an open border whilst closing or semi-closing to the rest of the EU. Perhaps the EU is sending us a message here: "Do you really understand how difficult this is going to be? Have you even thought about these issues?"

Honestly, I feel a lot of the British coverage of Brexit is finding polite ways of covering up the fact the UK is in significant trouble. The EU has set the timetable and compelled the UK to accept it. The EU is setting agenda topics and forcing the UK to address them. The UK is steadily conceding innumerable issues such as the payments, the EU courts, etc. Sure, the press go on complaining that the EU doesn't make sense, outrage stoking, claims of blackmail, etc. What they all mean is that the EU has the power and the UK is being forced to concede. Or "losing" as we might call it.

But most of the (Brexit-supporting) British press don't want to have to admit what should have been obvious all along: the UK is the weaker party. That they were talking nonsense about "easy" negotiations where the EU would be desperate to give the UK what it wanted. They seek to cover up their failures to inform the public of reality with derision and moral condemnation of the EU.

Agema:

Bobular:
Apparently the British side has been told legally they don't need to pay anything...

The British government has declared it doesn't need to pay anything? Funny, that.

(In a way, I kind of agree with the UK government. These sorts of treaties basically decide what the law is - it's all up for negotiation. Although even if not legally required, it could be considered that the UK has financial responsibilities that it would be honourable to pay.)

Over here what I'm seeing is that the EU side is just not trying to negotiate...

Okay, let us pause for a moment. The EU complains it does not really know what the UK wants from Brexit to negotiate with. Now, they might be lying for political effect. However, I am a highly politically aware Briton, and I do not know what my government is looking for from Brexit. I can read businesses and the CBI saying they do not know what the government is trying to achieve from Brexit. I look to politicians, and much is a load of vague, hypothetical platitudes. I see cabinet ministers disagreeing with each other about what the UK wants and needs. That EU claim looks pretty plausible to me.

Perhaps, just maybe, the problem with negotiations is that the UK government really doesn't even know. The Irish border is a great example, and no surprise it's been flagged up early. It is a huge fucking issue (See Warmachine's post above) for peace and security, where the EU has to represent Ireland as one of its member states. What's interesting about it is the total absence of a sensible answer from the UK about how it could maintain an open border whilst closing or semi-closing to the rest of the EU. Perhaps the EU is sending us a message here: "Do you really understand how difficult this is going to be? Have you even thought about these issues?"

Honestly, I feel a lot of the British coverage of Brexit is finding polite ways of covering up the fact the UK is in significant trouble. The EU has set the timetable and compelled the UK to accept it. The EU is setting agenda topics and forcing the UK to address them. The UK is steadily conceding innumerable issues such as the payments, the EU courts, etc. Sure, the press go on complaining that the EU doesn't make sense, outrage stoking, claims of blackmail, etc. What they all mean is that the EU has the power and the UK is being forced to concede. Or "losing" as we might call it.

But most of the (Brexit-supporting) British press don't want to have to admit what should have been obvious all along: the UK is the weaker party. That they were talking nonsense about "easy" negotiations where the EU would be desperate to give the UK what it wanted. They seek to cover up their failures to inform the public of reality with derision and moral condemnation of the EU.

This is pretty much the summary coming out of the situation so far. The blind nationalism that got us into this mess is still so exhaustingly prevailent and trying to find solid information on what exactly our government's plans and intentions are, without the sugar-coated grandiloquent patriotic rhetoric, is turning up fruitless. Almost like they had no plan going into this, and nary the knowledge or confidence to create a competent and harmless one meanwhile.

Brexit does not get reportet about that much at all. It might be a very important event for Britain, but it is not that important for the EU countries (where the rules don't change and most of the open market remains intact anyway)

Other than that, seems like media tends to think the current British gouvernment is bunch of incompetent clowns. It gets not really outright stated, but if you read between the lines that seems to be the impression.

People also don't really believe that a good free trade agreement is possible without Britain giving up most of its wishes. Which it can't do without voter revolt. So people prepare for WTO-rules.

Satinavian:
Brexit does not get reportet about that much at all. It might be a very important event for Britain, but it is not that important for the EU countries (where the rules don't change and most of the open market remains intact anyway)

Other than that, seems like media tends to think the current British gouvernment is bunch of incompetent clowns. It gets not really outright stated, but if you read between the lines that seems to be the impression.

People also don't really believe that a good free trade agreement is possible without Britain giving up most of its wishes. Which it can't do without voter revolt. So people prepare for WTO-rules.

Most of the people who voted Brexit I talk to are ok with WTO-rules. In fact a lot of them say we should just walk away from the negotiations now, go onto WTO and leave the EU panicking about the money it won't get from us any more until they come grovelling to us to give us what we want.

Note: None of the people I talk to in real life are diplomats.

I, for one, look forward to the forex traders panicking even more and dropping pound sterling through the floor, overloaded ports and angry truck drivers, UK manufacturer's better exports ruined by disrupted supply chains, financial services moving to Dublin, Frankfurt and Paris, a UK recession, a mere slowdown of the eurozone's good growth, Sinn Fein calling for Irish re-unification, and DUP repeatedly crashing hung Parliaments for "Continuing to betray the Northern Irish". I will also look forward to the grovelling to re-open negotiations.

Ignore the forex market's reaction to the Brexit result. They're only foreign currency traders. What do they about international trade?

Bobular:

Most of the people who voted Brexit I talk to are ok with WTO-rules. In fact a lot of them say we should just walk away from the negotiations now, go onto WTO and leave the EU panicking about the money it won't get from us any more until they come grovelling to us to give us what we want.

How well do they understand trade and economics?

Tariffs will almost certainly result in a drop in trade. It's a double whammy of not only lost production and jobs (because of likely decreased exports), but increased import costs will increase the price of goods and services (i.e. inflation). However, as more of the UK's trade is dependent on the EU than the EU's trade is on the UK, it will hurt the UK proportionally more (about 6 time more) than it will the EU.

Zontar:
the People's Republic of Cuckistan..

Fuck me you've gone full /pol

Wow that's certainly a different tale.

Our media depicts a UK that repeatedly displays that it just isn't ready for these negotiations, constantly show up unprepared and that they don't seem to take it very seriously in general.

Agema:

Bobular:

Most of the people who voted Brexit I talk to are ok with WTO-rules. In fact a lot of them say we should just walk away from the negotiations now, go onto WTO and leave the EU panicking about the money it won't get from us any more until they come grovelling to us to give us what we want.

How well do they understand trade and economics?

Tariffs will almost certainly result in a drop in trade. It's a double whammy of not only lost production and jobs (because of likely decreased exports), but increased import costs will increase the price of goods and services (i.e. inflation). However, as more of the UK's trade is dependent on the EU than the EU's trade is on the UK, it will hurt the UK proportionally more (about 6 time more) than it will the EU.

It is always pointed out to me that we only trade more with the EU because we're in the EU. Once we're out of the EU we'll get to trade with everyone else, I even had someone come into my work the day after the election and say they thought I'd be happy because now we can get free trade with Japan and I can import in anime cheaper.

I know it doesn't work that way, but most people don't care for more than five minutes, I know people who had never heard of what North Korea is like until recently.

Hades:
Wow that's certainly a different tale.

Our media depicts a UK that repeatedly displays that it just isn't ready for these negotiations, constantly show up unprepared and that they don't seem to take it very seriously in general.

That was kind of the point of the topic, I knew both sides media would be saying they're in a stronger position and bad mouthing the opposition. Personally I think there is probably a bit of accuracy in both sides, the EU has always been 'my way or the high way' and the UK government was so convinced this wouldn't happen they forbid government agencies to plan for Brexit until Brexit actually happened and then there were strangely no plans for what to do. I'd like to hope after the time between then and now they'd have some plan though.

Bobular:

It is always pointed out to me that we only trade more with the EU because we're in the EU. Once we're out of the EU we'll get to trade with everyone else, I even had someone come into my work the day after the election and say they thought I'd be happy because now we can get free trade with Japan and I can import in anime cheaper.

When I think of my frustrations with how the Brexit referendum was carried out, it precisely this sort of misconception that annoys me.

The EU (or continental Europe equivalent to it) has always been by far the most important trade partner for the UK, and always will be. It is, by a huge margin, the single most important entity the UK should have a good trade deal with. It is insane to think it should left to WTO so we can stitch up trade deals with a country 6000 miles away worth two ha'pennies a year.

Zontar:
the fact Quebec's Nazi party is at 18% popular support (up from 10% at the election)

Wait... what?

No party was at 10% support last elections, either federal or provincial.

Unless you mean the Bloc's share of the Quebec vote during the federal elections, but then that wouldn't be actually accurate either, considering the Bloc never even polled at 7% of the total vote since the last elections, while scoring around 5% in the 2015 elections.

Calling the Bloc a "Nazi party" is plain ridiculous as well. I understand that as a Jewish and Anglophone Quebecer you might not be the biggest fan of theirs (as they are a strictly francophone Secularo-Catholic party), but to call them "Nazis" is to erode the meaning of the word.

CheetoDust:

Zontar:
the People's Republic of Cuckistan..

Fuck me you've gone full /pol

he did that a long time ago.

on topic
here we basically hear that its a thing and that the UK doesn't know what it is doing but not a lot of details. at least thats the impression i have off it. then again i don't watch the news much

Bobular:
I knew both sides media would be saying they're in a stronger position and bad mouthing the opposition.

No, the media coverage is pretty difrerent.

Brexit was a decision of the British people. The British have the Brexiter and Remainer camp still attacking each other. The British have politicians whose legacy/reelection depends on the success of Brexit. British media have all taken clear positions.

Nothing of that is true for continental Europe. Here there are not really any diverging opinions about the topic, so it doesn't really get a lot of headlines. Economical impact will be bad but also not that important and the details of the deal in the end won't change that much. Industry is more concerned about crality of the coming rules and about the ability to organize and plan than about the exact tariff number.

There is not any talk about the "stronger position". People don't really feel the need to be reaffirmed. Sure, you can find some moaning about how Brexit is at fault for housing prices around Frankfurt expoding or similar stuff.

There was an episode of John Oliver about it a few months ago but that's about it. What I understand is that the UK has been given two years (less than two years now) to rework all of its trade, extradition, migration, and military treaties, not nearly enough time, and given that the EU has a vested interested in making it as difficult as possible for the UK to leave and the UK has comparatively little negotiating power when compared to the entire continent of Europe, the general consensus is that the UK is going to have their asses handed to them in negotiations.

Not thrilled about it, but that's how it's got to be. Stupid, shortsighted, emotionally-driven and impulsive decisions have consequences.

Zontar:
People's Republic of Cuckistan.

Would you fucking drop it with the beta cuck shit? You are on a video game forum and your user pic is a chibi anime catgirl, you have no business calling into question anyone's masculinity.

Well... we're fucked. Seriously, we have politicians who wanted to leave and now that they got their wish, they have no plan. No idea what they are doing. Did they really think it will be a walk in the park? Did they think they were Manchester United facing non league Torquay in the FA Cup finals? I voted to remain, accepted the lose and wanted a good deal to help the UK. Seems to me our politicians don't know shit!! You push for something so badly with fear and lies and now that you have your wish granted to you, you don't know what to do? Labour, Tories, whoever else, stop trying to fuck each other and please fucking work together to help this nation after we leave.

Jonathan, take it from here.

From what i've read, the UK is basically trying to suspend the rights of EU citizens within the United Kingdom, and if it comes to the cliff's edge, all 3 million+ could end up being deported. The whole EU/UK citizen thing seems like a hostage exchange as bpth sides compete to see who can threaten the other's citizens the most

Zontar:
We aren't really talking about it anymore here in the People's Republic of Cuckistan. Too much local news in the form of federal politics, the Quebec illegal immigrant crisis, the fact Quebec's Nazi party is at 18% popular support (up from 10% at the election) and rising as our nationalist party is bleeding its support into them and our right wing party, and American politics in general.

I think you need to go on vacation. You have been in front of the computer screen for far too long.

CyanCat47:
From what i've read, the UK is basically trying to suspend the rights of EU citizens within the United Kingdom, and if it comes to the cliff's edge, all 3 million+ could end up being deported. The whole EU/UK citizen thing seems like a hostage exchange as bpth sides compete to see who can threaten the other's citizens the most

Ignoring the rest of the issue, because I cba getting back into bickering around this, this is incorrect.

The UK offered EU citizens within the UK equal rights to UK citizens within the UK, on the ground that the EU offers UK citizens in the EU the rights of EU citizens in the EU.

The EU said that it wanted EU citizens within the UK to have the ability to resort to the ECJ in legal cases, which would not be the case for UK citizens within the UK. Which is quite clearly unjust, as it means people living in the same street have different options for legal recourse.

Is the gist I got. There's also issues about whether UK citizens within the EU at Brexit would retain the right to relocate within the EU, or for some reason be prohibited to staying within one country (while EU citizens in the UK retain full rights to move anywhere within either). And healthcare arrangements.

But at the end of the day, we wouldn't want to deport 3 million people. It's unfeasible, uneconomically sound and expensive.

The perception of it I got was pretty much the exact opposite, where the EU side were ready to negotiate day one and had there priority set while the UK government was still insisting it could get everything it wanted out of the deal but was also scrambling to hire negotiator and they keep changing there position on many issues with May and her minister publicly saying different things, like the white paper that was publish not to long ago admitting that there's going to be a transition period while May saying that everything would be finalised on the 2 year mark.

The Irish's border is not a trivial issue at all and any deal will be greatly affected by it, neither side want a hard border but at the same time you can't have tariff at the same time as an open border, for obvious reason. You can't sideline that issue to the last minute.

Same with the divorce bill, if you go to store, rack up a huge bill and they decide you don't have to pay but want the store to do something else for you, they're probably going to ask you pay for outstanding bill before hand. The bill is mostly due to two element, the current EU budget (which the UK helped draft and will not be affected by brexit, ie every cent that was going to be spent on the UK will still be spent there) and the pension liability for EU bureaucrat (some of which are from the UK in the first place, many of which live there). Asking the UK to pay for those objects is not unreasonable in any way.

Sonmi:

Wait... what?

No party was at 10% support last elections, either federal or provincial.

I was talking about the provincial level politics.

Unless you mean the Bloc's

I don't, I mean the Quebec Solidaire, which are in every respect Nazis save for one: the form of their nationalism, as it's civic based instead of ethnic based. But with Brownshirt's of their own (Quebec's Antifa), a completely identical economic policy, and a civil policy that's just an adlibe of the Nazis with the specific groups changing places, for all intense and purposes they are our Nazis, and the latest poll I could find (which was from 3 weeks ago) they'd risen to 18% popularity.

I'll take a PQ majority over the QS becoming significant any day of the week. Hell I'll take the Bloc forming a coalition with anyone at the federal level over the QS becoming relevant.

You know what, guarantee Anglo rights and easy travel and trade with Canada I'll take independence over the QS becoming relevant.

renegade7:

Would you fucking drop it with the beta cuck shit? You are on a video game forum and your user pic is a chibi anime catgirl, you have no business calling into question anyone's masculinity.

1) It's a thing called a joke.
2) She's not from an anime.
3) She's not a catgirl.

I actually wish it was being covered here (in the U.S.) more, because it would mean that there wasn't some new crazy disaster happening here in the states. But alas, you have seen what creature is running the government now, so...yeah, haven't heard much about this anymore.

Zontar:
intense and purposes

INTENTS.

Anecdote: I once worked with a guy who would write 'By enlarge ....'.

Edit: OT: We're boned. The few Leave voters I know are generally regretting their votes and trying to excuse them as 'protest votes'. But then, I live in the north, so we're likely to lose out post-Brexit. Not sure why no one checked before they ticked.

Zontar:

Sonmi:

Wait... what?

No party was at 10% support last elections, either federal or provincial.

I was talking about the provincial level politics.

Unless you mean the Bloc's

I don't, I mean the Quebec Solidaire, which are in every respect Nazis save for one: the form of their nationalism, as it's civic based instead of ethnic based. But with Brownshirt's of their own (Quebec's Antifa), a completely identical economic policy, and a civil policy that's just an adlibe of the Nazis with the specific groups changing places, for all intense and purposes they are our Nazis, and the latest poll I could find (which was from 3 weeks ago) they'd risen to 18% popularity.

I'll take a PQ majority over the QS becoming significant any day of the week. Hell I'll take the Bloc forming a coalition with anyone at the federal level over the QS becoming relevant.

You know what, guarantee Anglo rights and easy travel and trade with Canada I'll take independence over the QS becoming relevant.

renegade7:

Would you fucking drop it with the beta cuck shit? You are on a video game forum and your user pic is a chibi anime catgirl, you have no business calling into question anyone's masculinity.

1) It's a thing called a joke.
2) She's not from an anime.
3) She's not a catgirl.

I knew something was fishy. This "Nazi" party you speak of...is NOT Nazi at all.

They oppose racism and homophobia and sexism. Ya know, the opposite of Nazis.

Plus again you use the term 'Anglo' as if that isnt its own red flag.

Also "Its a joke" is bully logic.
She is drawn in an anime style.
She is apparently a wolf, but she looks more like a cat.

Zontar:

Sonmi:

Wait... what?

No party was at 10% support last elections, either federal or provincial.

I was talking about the provincial level politics.

Unless you mean the Bloc's

I don't, I mean the Quebec Solidaire, which are in every respect Nazis save for one: the form of their nationalism, as it's civic based instead of ethnic based. But with Brownshirt's of their own (Quebec's Antifa), a completely identical economic policy, and a civil policy that's just an adlibe of the Nazis with the specific groups changing places, for all intense and purposes they are our Nazis, and the latest poll I could find (which was from 3 weeks ago) they'd risen to 18% popularity.

I'll take a PQ majority over the QS becoming significant any day of the week. Hell I'll take the Bloc forming a coalition with anyone at the federal level over the QS becoming relevant.

You know what, guarantee Anglo rights and easy travel and trade with Canada I'll take independence over the QS becoming relevant.

renegade7:

Would you fucking drop it with the beta cuck shit? You are on a video game forum and your user pic is a chibi anime catgirl, you have no business calling into question anyone's masculinity.

1) It's a thing called a joke.
2) She's not from an anime.
3) She's not a catgirl.

You seriously suck at jokes. Plus your reputation around here doesn't help your "joke" sound like a joke. Read the rooms, Zontar.

Meiam:
The perception of it I got was pretty much the exact opposite, where the EU side were ready to negotiate day one and had there priority set while the UK government was still insisting it could get everything it wanted out of the deal but was also scrambling to hire negotiator and they keep changing there position on many issues with May and her minister publicly saying different things, like the white paper that was publish not to long ago admitting that there's going to be a transition period while May saying that everything would be finalised on the 2 year mark.

Well, yes and no. It's certainly true that the British (Conservative Party) position has been one of continued insistence that the UK can have everything it needs without any financial contributions. See, for instance, Dan Hannon's nonsensical argument that the UK can stay in the single market without conceding on freedom of movement. The UK government has not offered substantial positions on pretty much anything; Johnson, Davis and May continue to make grandiose statements in the domestic press, while there isn't a whiff of any victories in the actual negotiations.

However, I wouldn't really say that the EU were "ready to negotiate from day one", either. The EU have made some nonsensical and pointless requests when it comes to timescales, insisting (for instance) that they cannot start even early stage negotiations on certain issues before other-- entirely unrelated-- issues are fully settled.

We have a negotiation characterised by aggression on both sides, here, in part due to the two negotiating parties feeling the (obtuse and self-destructive) need to grandstand for their domestic audiences. The UK government is far guiltier of this than the EU, though, from what I see-- almost every announcement is tailor made for the tabloid press at home, and makes zero impact on the actual negotiation.

Silvanus:

Meiam:
The perception of it I got was pretty much the exact opposite, where the EU side were ready to negotiate day one and had there priority set while the UK government was still insisting it could get everything it wanted out of the deal but was also scrambling to hire negotiator and they keep changing there position on many issues with May and her minister publicly saying different things, like the white paper that was publish not to long ago admitting that there's going to be a transition period while May saying that everything would be finalised on the 2 year mark.

Well, yes and no. It's certainly true that the British (Conservative Party) position has been one of continued insistence that the UK can have everything it needs without any financial contributions. See, for instance, Dan Hannon's nonsensical argument that the UK can stay in the single market without conceding on freedom of movement. The UK government has not offered substantial positions on pretty much anything; Johnson, Davis and May continue to make grandiose statements in the domestic press, while there isn't a whiff of any victories in the actual negotiations.

However, I wouldn't really say that the EU were "ready to negotiate from day one", either. The EU have made some nonsensical and pointless requests when it comes to timescales, insisting (for instance) that they cannot start even early stage negotiations on certain issues before other-- entirely unrelated-- issues are fully settled.

We have a negotiation characterised by aggression on both sides, here, in part due to the two negotiating parties feeling the (obtuse and self-destructive) need to grandstand for their domestic audiences. The UK government is far guiltier of this than the EU, though, from what I see-- almost every announcement is tailor made for the tabloid press at home, and makes zero impact on the actual negotiation.

That is basically my interpretation of things as well. The Conservatives are struggling at home and needs to be seen to be 'winning' at Brexit. The thing is, because May screwed up during the last election she has no backing behind her so she's got to fight every step of the way against the opposition and her own party rebels (rightly or wrongly) which doesn't help anyone in negotiations.

Bobular:

That is basically my interpretation of things as well. The Conservatives are struggling at home and needs to be seen to be 'winning' at Brexit. The thing is, because May screwed up during the last election she has no backing behind her so she's got to fight every step of the way against the opposition and her own party rebels (rightly or wrongly) which doesn't help anyone in negotiations.

Aye. May's own stated rationale in calling the election was to strengthen her position in negotiations; so, by her own standard, her negotiating position is now weakened. This plays tremendously poorly both in Europe and within her own Party (to say nothing of the British public).

However, instead of standing aside, she's made the decision to just stay the course anyway. This leaves 3 possibilities: 1) The line about her negotiating stature resting on her electoral success was a lie; 2) The line was true, but she places her own position as Prime Minister above the benefits to the country of somebody in a stronger position taking on the negotiations; 3) She genuinely sees herself as the most, or only, capable person to deliver the negotiations, even within her own Party.

All three are specious, obviously, but I'm not sure which is the case.

Silvanus:

Bobular:

That is basically my interpretation of things as well. The Conservatives are struggling at home and needs to be seen to be 'winning' at Brexit. The thing is, because May screwed up during the last election she has no backing behind her so she's got to fight every step of the way against the opposition and her own party rebels (rightly or wrongly) which doesn't help anyone in negotiations.

Aye. May's own stated rationale in calling the election was to strengthen her position in negotiations; so, by her own standard, her negotiating position is now weakened. This plays tremendously poorly both in Europe and within her own Party (to say nothing of the British public).

However, instead of standing aside, she's made the decision to just stay the course anyway. This leaves 3 possibilities: 1) The line about her negotiating stature resting on her electoral success was a lie; 2) The line was true, but she places her own position as Prime Minister above the benefits to the country of somebody in a stronger position taking on the negotiations; 3) She genuinely sees herself as the most, or only, capable person to deliver the negotiations, even within her own Party.

All three are specious, obviously, but I'm not sure which is the case.

I'll go for a mix of 2 and 3. Who else was running against May for Conservative leader? Johnson or Gove, can you imagine either of these two fools trying to lead the UK through Brexit? And obviously May couldn't think someone outside the Conservative party would be better than her. Combine that with her recent deceleration that she is going to run as leader again at the next election despite her terrible performance at the last one shows she cares more for her own power than anyone else.

I was cautiously optimistic when she took over from Cameron, but all that has gone now.

Well, the reason they want to know about the Ireland thing is, of course, because of the amount of work required between a soft and a hard border. Northern Ireland doesn't seem to really want to stiffen up the border, partially because of the hoops they'll have to jump through and partially because the soft border has really opened things up between them and the rest of Ireland. They need to know its status before trade agreements and such because of the classifications in the law. You need to know which column to put a little tick into officially.

Bobular:

Silvanus:

However, instead of standing aside, she's made the decision to just stay the course anyway. This leaves 3 possibilities: 1) The line about her negotiating stature resting on her electoral success was a lie; 2) The line was true, but she places her own position as Prime Minister above the benefits to the country of somebody in a stronger position taking on the negotiations; 3) She genuinely sees herself as the most, or only, capable person to deliver the negotiations, even within her own Party.

I'll go for a mix of 2 and 3. Who else was running against May for Conservative leader? Johnson or Gove, can you imagine either of these two fools trying to lead the UK through Brexit? And obviously May couldn't think someone outside the Conservative party would be better than her. Combine that with her recent deceleration that she is going to run as leader again at the next election despite her terrible performance at the last one shows she cares more for her own power than anyone else.

I was cautiously optimistic when she took over from Cameron, but all that has gone now.

The way Bexit is being conducted, is I think, symptomatic of all the problems of our political class in the first place.

If discontent with politics was about unaccountable elites making their own stuff up with minimal regard to public wishes, Brexit has delivered more of this in spades. Essentially, the government has delegated itself the right to make up whatever it fancies with minimal public and parliamentary oversight. Despite an electoral kick in the teeth, the Tories just continue on as if nothing had happened, blind to the message that their right to arrange everything to their own satisfaction had been colossally undermined. And then after that you've still got all the same dilettante buffoons with their eyes on personal ambition instead of the scaling the legislative and political mountain that is Brexit.

Personally, I'd like to slip the UK into a transitional state with off-the-peg EFTA rules, to run indefinitely until we've finished a proper national conversation about what the hell we want from it all. We can also use that time to plan, prepare and bolster the experience and competence of the government in order to cope with the potentially huge and wide-ranging changes that the country might undergo. I have very low confidence that the government - politicians and civil service - is capable of negotiating and organising something of this magnitude to high quality in the two years available after starting from scratch.

Saelune:

Zontar:

Sonmi:

Wait... what?

No party was at 10% support last elections, either federal or provincial.

I was talking about the provincial level politics.

Unless you mean the Bloc's

I don't, I mean the Quebec Solidaire, which are in every respect Nazis save for one: the form of their nationalism, as it's civic based instead of ethnic based. But with Brownshirt's of their own (Quebec's Antifa), a completely identical economic policy, and a civil policy that's just an adlibe of the Nazis with the specific groups changing places, for all intense and purposes they are our Nazis, and the latest poll I could find (which was from 3 weeks ago) they'd risen to 18% popularity.

I'll take a PQ majority over the QS becoming significant any day of the week. Hell I'll take the Bloc forming a coalition with anyone at the federal level over the QS becoming relevant.

You know what, guarantee Anglo rights and easy travel and trade with Canada I'll take independence over the QS becoming relevant.

renegade7:

Would you fucking drop it with the beta cuck shit? You are on a video game forum and your user pic is a chibi anime catgirl, you have no business calling into question anyone's masculinity.

1) It's a thing called a joke.
2) She's not from an anime.
3) She's not a catgirl.

I knew something was fishy. This "Nazi" party you speak of...is NOT Nazi at all.

They oppose racism and homophobia and sexism. Ya know, the opposite of Nazis.

Plus again you use the term 'Anglo' as if that isnt its own red flag.

Also "Its a joke" is bully logic.
She is drawn in an anime style.
She is apparently a wolf, but she looks more like a cat.

The QS is very much Nazi. They are really a small leap from the FLQ. Anglophones were a targeted minority at one point in Quebec. I'm not trying to speak for anyone but myself, but a bomb in my mailbox isn't my idea of a good time.

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