Boy Scouts to allow girls, starting in 2018

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Gorfias:

That's the point. It isn't up to me to tell you what being a man is. It isn't up to Ema Watson to decide (that giving her stuff and white knighting for her will improve a man's world). It is up to you to decide, without reeducation camps you're forced into to keep your job because someone accused you of wrong think.

You haven't utilised this approach yourself at all. When efforts were brought up to discourage people from taking part in harmful behaviours, you described that as "shaming men for being men". You yourself associated those behaviours with the essence of maleness.

You're not supporting people deciding for themselves what it is to be a man; you've associated some very specific behaviours with maleness itself, and interpreted a discouragement of one to automatically be an attack on the other. That's the very opposite of what you're proscribing here.

Gorfias:
But I truly think male complaints tend to repel (men and women both) while when a woman complains, it attracts people that will try to assist.

The culture that discourages men from being emotionally open is precisely what the term 'toxic masculinity refers to. You are complaining, here, about exactly the same harmful, repressive inclinations.

That a new profile pic? Interesting.

Silvanus:

You haven't utilised this approach yourself at all. When efforts were brought up to discourage people from taking part in harmful behaviours, you described that as "shaming men for being men". You yourself associated those behaviours with the essence of maleness.

You're not supporting people deciding for themselves what it is to be a man; you've associated some very specific behaviours with maleness itself, and interpreted a discouragement of one to automatically be an attack on the other. That's the very opposite of what you're proscribing here.

I suppose if you decide that being a man is letting Ema Watson tell you how to act, I should shut up. Your choice.

The culture that discourages men from being emotionally open is precisely what the term 'toxic masculinity refers to. You are complaining, here, about exactly the same harmful, repressive inclinations.

I disagree. Toxic masculinity is about shaming men for being men as defined by "right thinkers" for purposes of social engineering. Very dangerous.

Gorfias:
I didn't say, nor do the people I listen to, say that it is always the fault of feminism. You are projecting....

Talk about radical generalizations!

And writing that MRAs exist only out of misogyny is a big part of the problem. That IS an example of what I'm writing about: deriding men who talk about their issues... if men are allowed to examine their issues to begin with.

Full truth, I actually got into the MRM and PUA scene in college. I left years ago because I realized what kind of people I was associating with. Nothing they said or did made me happy, just more miserable. They encouraged me to be a lazy keyboard warrior rather than a proper activist. They blamed everyone else for their problems, trafficked in the most appalling pseudoscience to back up their baseless claims and treated people outside of the community like shit.

So when you keep saying, "This is from my experience," I'm giving you mine. I don't like talking about it because those were some of the worst years of my life emotionally speaking. I needed help and all they did was make my life worse by teaching me to hate myself because I didn't conform to an arbitrary, poorly thought-out idea of what masculinity is supposed to look like. They encouraged me to push away people who were positive influences in my life. They encouraged me to treat women like objects. They wanted me to be as weak, stupid, alone and afraid as they are and I count myself lucky that I got out when I did.

A male space would not necessarily be a safe space. It would be a place for men to be men, good and bad. But of course, this likely sounds like a man having an issue, and you deriding it. Nice to know you think men's complaints are not met with derision.

So a safe space in other words. Call it whatever you like, that's what it is. And I wouldn't deride you if you just had the backbone to be more honest with me.

Gorfias:
I disagree. Toxic masculinity is about shaming men for being men as defined by "right thinkers" for purposes of social engineering. Very dangerous.

Saying you disagree isn't good enough. It's not enough to wear the mantle of Galileo. You have to be right.

Gorfias:
That a new profile pic? Interesting.

Silvanus:

You haven't utilised this approach yourself at all. When efforts were brought up to discourage people from taking part in harmful behaviours, you described that as "shaming men for being men". You yourself associated those behaviours with the essence of maleness.

You're not supporting people deciding for themselves what it is to be a man; you've associated some very specific behaviours with maleness itself, and interpreted a discouragement of one to automatically be an attack on the other. That's the very opposite of what you're proscribing here.

I suppose if you decide that being a man is letting Ema Watson tell you how to act, I should shut up. Your choice.

The culture that discourages men from being emotionally open is precisely what the term 'toxic masculinity refers to. You are complaining, here, about exactly the same harmful, repressive inclinations.

I disagree. Toxic masculinity is about shaming men for being men as defined by "right thinkers" for purposes of social engineering. Very dangerous.

See that right there. That's not engaging in conversation. This is the BS I'm sick of. You didn't make a point, just a straw man argument.

Well good for you, you're wrong. Toxic masculinity hurt me and depressed men more than your conspiracy theories ever did. Though I question how much you actually care about us.

Gorfias:

I suppose if you decide that being a man is letting Ema Watson tell you how to act, I should shut up. Your choice.

You are the one that directly equated certain specific behaviours with maleness, not Emma Watson. Why should I accept your restrictive definitions?

Gorfias:

I disagree. Toxic masculinity is about shaming men for being men as defined by "right thinkers" for purposes of social engineering. Very dangerous.

Strip away the buzzwords from this, and nothing is left.

Proponents of the idea of toxic masculinity have quite consistently described a set of behaviours-- including the notion that men should not openly express themselves emotionally, or the notion that stoicism in the face of sadness is a male virtue. The idea is that if we assume that men must act in these ways, then it's harmful for men as well as women. Emma Watson, in her speech, specifically said that men should be able to openly express themselves if they wish, and should not be restricted by stereotypical expectations.

In short, she directed her criticism towards a specific societal expectation placed upon men, not on men themselves, and advocated that men can act freely in different ways.

What, there, is "shaming men for being men"? Or do you disagree with my description altogether?

Silvanus:
the notion that stoicism in the face of sadness is a male virtue.

Not even real stoicism at that, but rather a cartoon of it where emotions are for weaklings. The Classical era stoics believed in being realistic about their emotions and remembering that they always had a choice in what they did about them. They felt grief and sadness, same as everyone else. They never denied or repressed those feelings, just kept themselves focused on their values to get through them.

Remember guys, keep a really close eye on your penis or a woman will steal it and use it to make soup. And she won't even share the soup, the greedy feminazi bitch! She wants to have her cake (your dick) and eat it.

Just in case that wasn't clear (which, on second reading, it really isn't): Gorfias, you're being ridiculous. Man up!

OT: Is scouts not just for nerds? I went to beavers (ho ho) when I was really young, but found it a bit shit.

BeetleManiac:

Full truth, I actually got into the MRM and PUA scene in college. I left years ago because I realized what kind of people I was associating with. Nothing they said or did made me happy, just more miserable. They encouraged me to be a lazy keyboard warrior rather than a proper activist. They blamed everyone else for their problems, trafficked in the most appalling pseudoscience to back up their baseless claims and treated people outside of the community like shit.

PUAs is a very different group than MRM's, though I'm sure there is some over-lap. And I concede, I'm more purple pilled than red pilled. My own relationship has benefits. It also fits into what many men are going through, resulting in red pill rage.

They encouraged me to treat women like objects.

That definitely sounds PUA shit, which I (and many MRAs) find embarrassing.

In my own life, I am trying to find that balance between asserting myself while still honoring my family without being the doormat I've been for a large part of my adult life. I'm old, but it's never too late to learn something.

And, I hope you can agree that are dangers out there for men, as men. You've probably seen this before... a tax subsidized University professor on TV explaining that the Red Pill documentary, about men's issues (family law, medical care coverage, criminal law, employment law, etc.), that caused the film maker Cassie Jay to stop using the feminist label upon herself, was actually just about men wanting to rape women.


My point being, people like this are influences, movers in the Feminist world. And they have a very hostile view of men.

Given that these MRM and PUA were not having a positive impact on you, I'm glad you got away from them. That shouldn't stop you from caring about the system and asserting your right to fair treatment in it. (I think the MGTOW misguided. You cannot run from these people: you've got to confront them and fight for fairness.)

erttheking:
Toxic masculinity hurt me and depressed men more than your conspiracy theories ever did. Though I question how much you actually care about us.

As you define it. Watch the video above and understand: there are others that want to define you. And you won't like their definition.

Silvanus:

Proponents of the idea of toxic masculinity have quite consistently described a set of behaviours

Again: see the video above and read what I wrote to BeetleManiac: the issue is that there are very powerful and influential people out there that want to define what masculinity is and it isn't good. And of course, they're not just going to walk away. No, they are going to use government to force a conformity they desire. Another example:

I know, the UN is not an enforcement entity. Yet. Still problematic.

Gorfias:

BeetleManiac:

Full truth, I actually got into the MRM and PUA scene in college. I left years ago because I realized what kind of people I was associating with. Nothing they said or did made me happy, just more miserable. They encouraged me to be a lazy keyboard warrior rather than a proper activist. They blamed everyone else for their problems, trafficked in the most appalling pseudoscience to back up their baseless claims and treated people outside of the community like shit.

PUAs is a very different group than MRM's, though I'm sure there is some over-lap. And I concede, I'm more purple pilled than red pilled. My own relationship has benefits. It also fits into what many men are going through, resulting in red pill rage.

They encouraged me to treat women like objects.

That definitely sounds PUA shit, which I (and many MRAs) find embarrassing.

In my own life, I am trying to find that balance between asserting myself while still honoring my family without being the doormat I've been for a large part of my adult life. I'm old, but it's never too late to learn something.

And, I hope you can agree that are dangers out there for men, as men. You've probably seen this before... a tax subsidized University professor on TV explaining that the Red Pill documentary, about men's issues (family law, medical care coverage, criminal law, employment law, etc.), that caused the film maker Cassie Jay to stop using the feminist label upon herself, was actually just about men wanting to rape women.


My point being, people like this are influences, movers in the Feminist world. And they have a very hostile view of men.

Given that these MRM and PUA were not having a positive impact on you, I'm glad you got away from them. That shouldn't stop you from caring about the system and asserting your right to fair treatment in it. (I think the MGTOW misguided. You cannot run from these people: you've got to confront them and fight for fairness.)

erttheking:
Toxic masculinity hurt me and depressed men more than your conspiracy theories ever did. Though I question how much you actually care about us.

As you define it. Watch the video above and understand: there are others that want to define you. And you won't like their definition.

Silvanus:

Proponents of the idea of toxic masculinity have quite consistently described a set of behaviours

Again: see the video above and read what I wrote to BeetleManiac: the issue is that there are very powerful and influential people out there that want to define what masculinity is and it isn't good. And of course, they're not just going to walk away. No, they are going to use government to force a conformity they desire. Another example:

I know, the UN is not an enforcement entity. Yet. Still problematic.

Toxic masculinity defines itself. By definition it's toxic. Or are you one of those people who think toxic masculinity means all masculinity? Cause it doesn't.

Gorfias:
PUAs is a very different group than MRM's, though I'm sure there is some over-lap.

More than you think. Especially ten years ago when they were joined at the hip. The rest of your post was just more of the same crap I've come to expect. You don't actually give a shit about what any of us have to say on the matter because you're too busy feeling sorry for yourself. Guys like you have never done shit to help me, and yet you always seem to think you're entitled to my deference because you bitch about suicide rates on internet forums. Believe it or not, it's the feminists in my life who have done far more for me than you and the MRAs pretend to.

Of course, I knew this was going nowhere because I told you about my own past with suicidal thoughts and rather than showing empathy and a desire to listen, you just kept preaching at me. You bitch and whine that movers and shakers in feminism are allegedly misandrist, but you hand-wave away the horrible misogyny and extremists in the camp you've sided with. And you nail yourself to a cross when you don't get the psychological validation you're so obviously pumping us for.

So in short, we're done here. You never gave a fuck about me or other men in my position, and you never did.

erttheking:

Toxic masculinity defines itself. By definition it's toxic. Or are you one of those people who think toxic masculinity means all masculinity? Cause it doesn't.

It will be defined by those who want to pick and chose what they think is masculine, and what is toxic.

I think the types of people who will define it in government, the media, university, in our courts, are the same types of people that have come up with laws that discriminate against men in family and criminal law for starters so I'm very, very wary of them having the power to define it and impose their solutions upon me.

I once had to sit, to keep my job, in a tax funded seminar on domestic violence against women (not targeted at me: everyone in my org. had to take turns taking the class). I asked the instructor why this was not about both women victims AND male victims. He was honest. He patiently explained that men don't matter. And I had to sit, in what I consider a hostile environment, for my job. You think I would want such a person explaining to me what "toxic masculinity" is and possibly imposing his solutions upon me? Not a chance.

BeetleManiac:

Gorfias:
PUAs is a very different group than MRM's, though I'm sure there is some over-lap.

More than you think. Especially ten years ago when they were joined at the hip. The rest of your post was just more of the same crap I've come to expect. You don't actually give a shit about what any of us have to say on the matter because you're too busy feeling sorry for yourself. Guys like you have never done shit to help me, and yet you always seem to think you're entitled to my deference because you bitch about suicide rates on internet forums. Believe it or not, it's the feminists in my life who have done far more for me than you and the MRAs pretend to.

Of course, I knew this was going nowhere because I told you about my own past with suicidal thoughts and rather than showing empathy and a desire to listen, you just kept preaching at me. You bitch and whine that movers and shakers in feminism are allegedly misandrist, but you hand-wave away the horrible misogyny and extremists in the camp you've sided with. And you nail yourself to a cross when you don't get the psychological validation you're so obviously pumping us for.

So in short, we're done here. You never gave a fuck about me or other men in my position, and you never did.

Ahem.

From my last post to you...

Given that these MRM and PUA were not having a positive impact on you, I'm glad you got away from them.

Gorfias:
Ahem.

From my last post to you...

Given that these MRM and PUA were not having a positive impact on you, I'm glad you got away from them.

An empty sentiment. You had other opportunities to display more sincere empathy than that bit of token rhetoric. You didn't take them, instead whining about how persecuted you think you are. I have no reason to take you at your word given how dishonest you've been with me.

BeetleManiac:

Gorfias:
Ahem.

From my last post to you...

Given that these MRM and PUA were not having a positive impact on you, I'm glad you got away from them.

An empty sentiment. You had other opportunities to display more sincere empathy than that bit of token rhetoric. You didn't take them, instead whining about how persecuted you think you are. I have no reason to take you at your word given how dishonest you've been with me.

OK. I accept your apology. Be well.

Gorfias:

erttheking:

Toxic masculinity defines itself. By definition it's toxic. Or are you one of those people who think toxic masculinity means all masculinity? Cause it doesn't.

It will be defined by those who want to pick and chose what they think is masculine, and what is toxic.

I think the types of people who will define it in government, the media, university, in our courts, are the same types of people that have come up with laws that discriminate against men in family and criminal law for starters so I'm very, very wary of them having the power to define it and impose their solutions upon me.

I once had to sit, to keep my job, in a tax funded seminar on domestic violence against women (not targeted at me: everyone in my org. had to take turns taking the class). I asked the instructor why this was not about both women victims AND male victims. He was honest. He patiently explained that men don't matter. And I had to sit, in what I consider a hostile environment, for my job. You think I would want such a person explaining to me what "toxic masculinity" is and possibly imposing his solutions upon me? Not a chance.

BeetleManiac:

Gorfias:
PUAs is a very different group than MRM's, though I'm sure there is some over-lap.

More than you think. Especially ten years ago when they were joined at the hip. The rest of your post was just more of the same crap I've come to expect. You don't actually give a shit about what any of us have to say on the matter because you're too busy feeling sorry for yourself. Guys like you have never done shit to help me, and yet you always seem to think you're entitled to my deference because you bitch about suicide rates on internet forums. Believe it or not, it's the feminists in my life who have done far more for me than you and the MRAs pretend to.

Of course, I knew this was going nowhere because I told you about my own past with suicidal thoughts and rather than showing empathy and a desire to listen, you just kept preaching at me. You bitch and whine that movers and shakers in feminism are allegedly misandrist, but you hand-wave away the horrible misogyny and extremists in the camp you've sided with. And you nail yourself to a cross when you don't get the psychological validation you're so obviously pumping us for.

So in short, we're done here. You never gave a fuck about me or other men in my position, and you never did.

Ahem.

From my last post to you...

Given that these MRM and PUA were not having a positive impact on you, I'm glad you got away from them.

You know, I've yet to see you move beyond pearl clutching. You act like this is all women manipulating men, even though plenty of men find aspects of masculinity to be toxic. Stop acting like we're too stupid to think for ourselves.

Stop. Just fucking stop. Law? Laws aren't being written. We're talking about confronting unhealthy attitudes. This just proves what I've been thinking all along. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Toxic masculinity is hurting men and you refuse any criticism of it, so I don't want to fucking hear you complain about how some people think male lives don't matter. What? You worked for a cunt, therefore masculine trends can't hurt people? People like me kill themselves because people like you refuse to hear a single bad thing about their precious fucking masculinity. Am I allowed to talk about toxic masculinity or am I one of them?

Either way, stop talking about men like you care. You're part of the fucking problem.

erttheking:

You know, I've yet to see you move beyond pearl clutching. You act like this is all women manipulating men, even though plenty of men find aspects of masculinity to be toxic. Stop acting like we're too stupid to think for ourselves.

Stop. Just fucking stop. Law? Laws aren't being written. We're talking about confronting unhealthy attitudes. This just proves what I've been thinking all along. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Toxic masculinity is hurting men and you refuse any criticism of it, so I don't want to fucking hear you complain about how some people think male lives don't matter. What? You worked for a cunt, therefore masculine trends can't hurt people? People like me kill themselves because people like you refuse to hear a single bad thing about their precious fucking masculinity. Am I allowed to talk about toxic masculinity or am I one of them?

Either way, stop talking about men like you care. You're part of the fucking problem.

OK, so, men make up 95% + of workplace fatalities are men, they're 10 times as likely to be homeless, they aren't going to college, they're going to jail, they're much more likely to be victims of violent crime (committed but other men, but it still matters) but pointing out these issues is "pearl clutching".

Men aren't perfect. But the very term, "toxic masculinity" is an attack. I cannot think of a similar term for women.

When it comes to male improvement, I'll stick to those who want a better, longer, more empowered life for men as opposed to those that want to show contempt for the most basic aspects of what it is to be a male while expecting ever more concessions from them.

Gorfias:

erttheking:

You know, I've yet to see you move beyond pearl clutching. You act like this is all women manipulating men, even though plenty of men find aspects of masculinity to be toxic. Stop acting like we're too stupid to think for ourselves.

Stop. Just fucking stop. Law? Laws aren't being written. We're talking about confronting unhealthy attitudes. This just proves what I've been thinking all along. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Toxic masculinity is hurting men and you refuse any criticism of it, so I don't want to fucking hear you complain about how some people think male lives don't matter. What? You worked for a cunt, therefore masculine trends can't hurt people? People like me kill themselves because people like you refuse to hear a single bad thing about their precious fucking masculinity. Am I allowed to talk about toxic masculinity or am I one of them?

Either way, stop talking about men like you care. You're part of the fucking problem.

OK, so, men make up 95% + of workplace fatalities are men, they're 10 times as likely to be homeless, they aren't going to college, they're going to jail, they're much more likely to be victims of violent crime (committed but other men, but it still matters) but pointing out these issues is "pearl clutching".

Men aren't perfect. But the very term, "toxic masculinity" is an attack. I cannot think of a similar term for women.

When it comes to male improvement, I'll stick to those who want a better, longer, more empowered life for men as opposed to those that want to show contempt for the most basic aspects of what it is to be a male while expecting ever more concessions from them.

That has literally fucking nothing to do with what we're talking about. You're talking about people being shamed for men, what the fuck does that have to do with workplace accidents or homelessness?

Only if you go out of your way to make it an attack. Ironically, if you're offended by the concept of toxic masculinity, I'd argue you have very fragile masculinity.

Ok, you need to decide. Is there a definition for what it means to be a man or not? Because you keep going back and forth. In your conspiracy theory, the most basic aspects of what it means to be a man is under attack. What the fuck are those aspects?

Can somebody give a few concrete examples of what toxic masculinity actually is? I'd really like to know if I'm experiencing it and just don't care or notice.

Edit: Also, Gorfias, chill the hell out, you are acting like a crazy person.

Fischgopf:
Can somebody give a few concrete examples of what toxic masculinity actually is? I'd really like to know if I'm experiencing it and just don't care or notice.

Edit: Also, Gorfias, chill the hell out, you are acting like a crazy person.

I'll toss a couple of easy examples in.

1. The idea that men must be "tough" emotionally: Men don't cry or get sad. Men don't show their feelings.
2. The idea that certain things are "unmanly:" Men don't do ballet or like flowers or watch rom-com movies (except to get laid) or enjoy fashion.
3. The idea that certain things are "manly:" Men like sports and cars. Men like working with tools and fixing stuff.

Men who break those concepts are looked down on or made fun of. These ideas are used as part of a "scorecard of manliness" that one is judged by and if you're found wanting in your masculinity, you're labeled and insulted. A very fun example is how many of the same people who complain how feminists and such use insults like "beta" or "cuck" which are inherently based on making the point that someone isn't "masculine enough" and therefore is lesser for it.

Gorfias:

they're much more likely to be victims of violent crime (committed but other men, but it still matters)

Are you not therefore concerned that men are much more likely to commit violent crimes?

But the very term, "toxic masculinity" is an attack. I cannot think of a similar term for women.

Feminazi? I'm sure if you keep watching those videos you'll find plenty of similar terms, you just won't recognise them as such.

When it comes to male improvement, I'll stick to those who want a better, longer, more empowered life for men as opposed to those that want to show contempt for the most basic aspects of what it is to be a male while expecting ever more concessions from them

Give it a rest, you are starting to sound like Elliot Rodger.

Gorfias:

When it comes to male improvement, I'll stick to those who want a better, longer, more empowered life for men as opposed to those that want to show contempt for the most basic aspects of what it is to be a male while expecting ever more concessions from them.

Oooooh? What are those 'basic aspects'?

Avnger:

Fischgopf:
Can somebody give a few concrete examples of what toxic masculinity actually is? I'd really like to know if I'm experiencing it and just don't care or notice.

Edit: Also, Gorfias, chill the hell out, you are acting like a crazy person.

I'll toss a couple of easy examples in.

1. The idea that men must be "tough" emotionally: Men don't cry or get sad. Men don't show their feelings.
2. The idea that certain things are "unmanly:" Men don't do ballet or like flowers or watch rom-com movies (except to get laid) or enjoy fashion.
3. The idea that certain things are "manly:" Men like sports and cars. Men like working with tools and fixing stuff.

Men who break those concepts are looked down on or made fun of. These ideas are used as part of a "scorecard of manliness" that one is judged by and if you're found wanting in your masculinity, you're labeled and insulted. A very fun example is how many of the same people who complain how feminists and such use insults like "beta" or "cuck" which are inherently based on making the point that someone isn't "masculine enough" and therefore is lesser for it.

Ok, so I feel differently about your examples.

1. Those 2 things are not one and the same. Sure Men cry and get sad, that much is obvious. What is expected of men is that they do not act like women, whom from the perspectives of many men, including myself, at times act overly emotional.

There is nothing wrong with crying, you just don't do it over nothing and expect to be taken seriously as a person. For whatever reason, Women get more of a pass on this. I imagine it has to do with them having those Vaginas so many of us guys are interested in.

2. And none of those things are manly. Don't get me wrong, I personally don't think that matters. But what exactly is the point in pretending that Ballet is by any means manly? The better question is why people give a fuck.

And Rom-Coms are generally just bad and utterly predictible, not to mention that they often focus on despicible people.

3. And as little interest as I have in those things generally speaking, they do seem to be things that a large portion of men like doing, which would make them kinda "manly" now wouldn't it? And I don't know about you, but as a Guy in a long term relationship with a Woman I can tell you that she does very much expect me to be competent with Tools and capable of making small repairs. The same applies to every guy I've ever talked to about that sort of thing, so it's not so much that they think Tools are awesome and repairing stuff is fun as the Women in their lives simply expect them to do it. Though yeah, there are guys that just like that stuff. My Brother likes doing Woodwork. I on the other Hand would rather start-up Photoshop or Cinema3D for my creative endeavours.

I kinda have to question where people are apparently getting this abuse from people they obviously have no real reason to be hanging around? How exactly is it anywhere near a common occurence for a car enthusiast to give you shit for not liking cars unless you are weirdly hanging out with car enthusiasts despite not being one?

And given your last paragraph I can only assume that you (and many others here) just had bad father figures. There is no manliness card and being a Man is way more about how you behave in relation to other then what you do in isolation. It's not about sports or fucking cars, atleast not according to my upbringing. According to my upbringing being a Gardener who does Ballet in his free time and couldn't throw a Football to save his life would have no bearing at all on whether or not this person is a Man, likewise hating flowers and dance whilst being great at throwing a Ball also wouldn't make one a Man. Hell, according to my upbringing the second guy would be less likely to be a man simply for thinking those things are important to it.

And you do realise that "Beta" and "Cuck" when used as insults are simply to say that the person is pathetic? And yeah, in general I agree with the idea that if you get off to your Girlfriend/Wife getting fucked by other guys whilst you are being dominated in the process you are pretty damn pathetic. So, I don't know, that's just not a fetish I have any respect for, much like adult diaper play or eating shit. For the record, they are still dumb insults. Insults should be as upfront as possible, otherwise you are giving the other person wiggle room to make it sound like a compliment.

Fischgopf:

Snip

1. In my experience crying in public is more or less social suicide. Particularly in male dominated environments and ESPECIALLY in high-school. The term "pussy" comes to mind. The only reason it wasn't a problem for me is that in high school my social life was pretty much dead anyway. Oh, and if you get emotional you're more or less a prime target for people picking on you. Lots of personal experience there.

2. The idea of them being unmanly comes with the implication that "a REAL man wouldn't do this." People can get pathetically insecure about this. Like when people started noticing that My Little Pony was good enough to enjoy, people starting saying things like "and they say this show is for little girls." Uh. It is. If someone were to like it despite that, cool, but the fact that so many people act like it's something that it's not says a lot.

3. Like with 2, it caries the implication that "you're not a real man unless you do something like this." I've shown zero interest in those things, and it probably says a lot as to how I didn't have a lot of male friends in high school. Only one really.

No, not bad father figures, it's just that there are a lot of insecure male douchebags out there. There's a reason "fag" is a much more popular insult among men than women. And yeah, we do know that beta and cuck are supposed to mean pathetic, and the fact that some people think that those are appropriate terms for calling someone pathetic says a lot about what they consider a pathetic person to be. Kind of like how, not too long ago, these same people used pussy and fag as insults instead. Also, people get off to what they get off to. If you're trying to argue against toxic masculinity, I'd suggest you not try to get judgemental over what some people find sexually arousing, otherwise it's a bit of a "thank you for proving my point," moment. I've delved into a lot of kink communities, and the people there seem a lot more well adjusted than pricks who run around calling people cucks in order to make their dicks feel big. The same people who, ironically, were fond of using accusations of homosexuality as an insults around the same time period they were drawing dicks on everything. And would accuse you of being gay if you hung out with women. Try to wrap your head around that bit of logic, because I sure can't.

erttheking:

Fischgopf:

Snip

1. In my experience crying in public is more or less social suicide.

Fucking duh dude. Have a little restraint. Not even Women think it's normal to burst into tears in public.

Particularly in male dominated environments and ESPECIALLY in high-school.

How the fuck is High School a male dominated environment? And you mean to tell me that in High Schools, where all the hormone riddled mal-adjusted Tennagers are, it isn't a good idea to cry a river in the Hallways? Damn, I never would have thought that dude.

The term "pussy" comes to mind.

Yeah, which isn't very fair to Women really. Most of them know that bursting into tears in public is frowned upon, I don't why people go for pussy.

The only reason it wasn't a problem for me is that in high school my social life was pretty much dead anyway. Oh, and if you get emotional you're more or less a prime target for people picking on you. Lots of personal experience there.

Well, in that case I'm sorry to tell you, but people saying Men need to express their Emotions don't mean that they should be doing so in the form of public outbursts.

Surely you've noticed that outbursts of any emotion other then Joy are generally frowned upon in public outside of specific circumstances.

And dude, I started High School without being able to speak the same language as my peers. I still managed to build up a social life.

2. The idea of them being unmanly comes with the implication that "a REAL man wouldn't do this." People can get pathetically insecure about this. Like when people started noticing that My Little Pony was good enough to enjoy, people starting saying things like "and they say this show is for little girls." Uh. It is. If someone were to like it despite that, cool, but the fact that so many people act like it's something that it's not says a lot.

What says much more is that those are also the people that complain about Toxic masculinity.

3. Like with 2, it caries the implication that "you're not a real man unless you do something like this." I've shown zero interest in those things, and it probably says a lot as to how I didn't have a lot of male friends in high school. Only one really.

I think you ae wrong. I'd say why, but you'll probably consider it insulting whether I mean to be or not, so I'll pass unless you'd like to know.

No, not bad father figures, it's just that there are a lot of insecure male douchebags out there.

I'm not going to say you are a Douchebag, but you certainly come across as insecure to me.

There's a reason "fag" is a much more popular insult among men than women.

You mean other then the obvious one where it just sounds weird to call a woman a fag? It's like calling a woman a asshole, it just doesn't fit. You call a guy an asshole and a woman a bitch.

Otherwise I'd say it's for the same reasdon the Tracer is a Lesbian. Women dabbling in homosexuality isn't that weird, it's a stereotype in and of itself. So it isn't very insulting. A heterosexual guy however won't want to come across as gay.

And that's excluding the South Park take, which is largely the same one I also felt it was in gaming, in that Fag pretty much just means annoying asshole.

And yeah, we do know that beta and cuck are supposed to mean pathetic, and the fact that some people think that those are appropriate terms for calling someone pathetic says a lot about what they consider a pathetic person to be.

Yeah, but you also started you post by complaining about backlash for getting emotional in public. I don't think you are a good judge of what people find pathetic.

Kind of like how, not too long ago, these same people used pussy and fag as insults instead.

I totally use those as insults. Beta and Cuck not so much.

Also, people get off to what they get off to.

Yes, your point?

If you're trying to argue against toxic masculinity,

I'm not. I'm arguing against people, not concepts. See, toxic masculinity is extremly vague, vague to the point that it has to exist in some form or another. I'd never waste my breath trying to argue that it somehow doesn't. What I will argue is how normal it is or even what it is. And that tends to come down to a person to person basis.

I'd suggest you not try to get judgemental over what some people find sexually arousing.

I decline. People can find whatever they want arousing. I can find them weird for that. Me thinking they are weird doesn't hurt them. I'm weird too. I don't see being weird as a bad thing. It just is what it is.

And as it turns out, I find the idea of grown adults doing baby play to be both comical and at times disturbing, therefore I don't respect it. And Skatplay is simply disgusting. Being tolerant doesn't mean I have to think highly of it, I just leave people to their own devices, that's literally all tolerance is.

I've delved into a lot of kink communities, and the people there seem a lot more well adjusted than pricks who run around calling people cucks in order to make their dicks feel big.

You aren't stupid,. surely you understand that the summation that they are well-adjusted means very little to me coming from someone who is acting like it should be normal to cry in public. Sorry but that simply doesn't paint a picture of YOU as being well-adjusted, why should I consider you capable of judging if others are?

And out of curiosity, I'm pretty sure that I've seen you post that you've never had a GF or Sex, so why were you delving into kink communities?

The same people who, ironically, were fond of using accusations of homosexuality as an insults around the same time period they were drawing dicks on everything.

And this is the best part. This is just a roundabout way for you to call them fags. So how are you not Toxic again? Because you want to cry more openly?

I think you are a well-meaning guy, but I don't think you understand other people nearly as much as you think you do. And just to make sure you know, since you mentioned something like that not too long ago somewhere around here and I imagine you would include me amoung those. I don't hate you. I'm not trying to pick on you or anything like that. I just think you are misguided and kinda arrogant sometimes.

Fischgopf:
Snip

Did I mention earlier in the thread that I had struggled with suicidal urges? I've broken down at work. And you know what my female co-workers did? They comforted me. I cracked when my dog died, my boss told me to take the rest of the day off, even though I told him I would be fine. But sure "show a little restraint." God forbid life just get to you.

I didn't mean to imply that it was, just that it gets particularly bad there. Also, you seem to be taking the approach where people are taking issues with a shitty aspect of life and you shrug and said "whatcha gonna do." Ok, dude. Pick on. Either toxic masculinity isn't an issue, or it's something you just need to shrug and get over. You can't have it both ways.

Because they unimaginative and view women as weaklings and as having any kind of moment of weakness as something to be mocked, because apparently the T-800 is a role model for them.

It's frowned upon. I'm sorry, did you actually read my post? Because the whole point I was making was that it was suicide for that to happen and I think that's bullshit. Try actually arguing my points instead of trying to maximize your snark to word ratio. And you built up a social life? Good for you. You do know that things going well for you doesn't mean things are going to go swimmingly for everyone else right?

If you think that those people are the ones complaining about toxic masculinity, you haven't been paying attention.

General rule of thumb. If you have to say "you'd probably find it insulting," then maybe there's a good reason for it. The reason being that it was insulting.

Coming from you, that seriously means less than nothing. Maybe if that was coming from someone's whose opinion I actually respected, it would mean something. But it's coming from someone who would chastise me for breaking down over my suicidal thoughts. So yeah.

What the hell are you talking about? I call women assholes all the time. Mainly my sister. Because she is one. And sounds weird to call women a fag. A guy doesn't want to come across as homosexual? I...yes. Because it's been turned into an insult against masculinity by insecure men who think that insulting masculinity. And that being attracted to men is a grave insult. It doesn't work on women because of that. That's the point I was trying to make. That that mindset is bullshit. Are...are you paying attention? At all?

If you think that someone breaking down is pathetic, over suicidal thoughts I'd like to remind you, then to be perfectly frank, you're probably one of those very people I'm talking about.

Well. That says an awful lot about you. After the above, I have a hard time swallowing you use it in the South Park manner.

If you judge people over what arouses them in their private life, you're being awfully judgemental and superior. Something, I can't help but feel like, you've done squat to deserve.

Well that's ironic. Because in your attempt to argue against toxic masculinity being normal, you've basically been doing nothing but upholding it.

Yeah, it doesn't hurt them. It's just the fact that you're being rather holier than thou, on top of continuing to reinforce the idea that someone is "pathetic" if they aroused by something you consider to be unmanly. Yeah, except when you end up not thinking highly of something, it pays to have a reason for why you don't think highly of it other than it doesn't fit into your arbitrary world view of manliness.

You know, you say I'm not stupid, yet you've been very condescending to me the entire reply. I can't help but wonder what my post did to deserve this level of spite and ridicule. Ok, gonna have to stop you right there. First of all, point out where I said it should be considered normal to cry in public. I am not advocating that people cry in public, but rather that they not get bullied if they have a bad day. Because people have bad days, eventually things just get to us and we snap. You've pulled pretty much what every single person does in your situation and jump to the far end and act like I'm advocating for people to cry at the drop of the hat. And I'm sorry, you have no right to accuse me of not being well adjusted. The fact that I pointed out that getting bullied for being emotional in school is a bad thing, and it earned this level of disdain from me makes me laugh. You really want to paint me as someone who isn't well adjusted. For thinking people shouldn't be bullied. When that simple concept earned this level of scorn from you.

So we've moved from strawman arguments into Ad Hominem. I find it highly ironic that you are acting like toxic masculinity isn't a problem while you're moving dangerously close to virgin shaming territory. As for why I went there...I have to ask how that's any of your business. Considering the way you've been treating me, I see no good answer to that question. Because it isn't.

*Raises eyebrow* Me pointing out irony and hypocrisy is calling them fags? That's a desperate reach man. Mainly because drawing dicks isn't an act of sexual attraction. And your post was full of such desperate reaches

"I think you're a well meaning guy," you ever hear the old saying that everything before the word "but" doesn't count? I don't understand people nearly as well as I think I do? Yeah. You've done very little to prove that. The only thing you've done is been rather condescending and then acted like you proved a point. "I don't hate you." Your point? And arrogant? You're calling me arrogant after everything you just posted? Full of scorn and ridicule in response to a rather mild mannered post? Oh. That's rich.

And dude, let's do a quick recount. You've acted like taking abuse for being emotional is something that should be expected. You came within an inch of virgin shaming. You call people who perform sexual acts that don't fit in the accepted world of manliness "pathetic." You flat out said fag was used as an insult because boys and men don't want to be seen as homosexual without seeing the inherent problem in that mindset. You act like someone crying in public ever means that they aren't well adjusted. Apparently even when my dog died I wasn't permitted to cry then.

You wanted an example of toxic masculinity? Well. I think you provided a better example than I ever could. If I had been surrounded by people like you my entire life, I'd probably be dead right now. And knowing you, you'll probably try to turn my suicidal thoughts into an insult against me.

EDIT: You know, say what you will about Gorfias, at least he has refrained from outright insulting people for disagreeing with him.

erttheking:

Fischgopf:
Snip

Did I mention earlier in the thread that I had struggled with suicidal urges? I've broken down at work. And you know what my female co-workers did? They comforted me. I cracked when my dog died, my boss told me to take the rest of the day off, even though I told him I would be fine. But sure "show a little restraint." God forbid life just get to you.

I didn't mean to imply that it was, just that it gets particularly bad there. Also, you seem to be taking the approach where people are taking issues with a shitty aspect of life and you shrug and said "whatcha gonna do." Ok, dude. Pick on. Either toxic masculinity isn't an issue, or it's something you just need to shrug and get over. You can't have it both ways.

Because they unimaginative and view women as weaklings and as having any kind of moment of weakness as something to be mocked, because apparently the T-800 is a role model for them.

It's frowned upon. I'm sorry, did you actually read my post? Because the whole point I was making was that it was suicide for that to happen and I think that's bullshit. Try actually arguing my points instead of trying to maximize your snark to word ratio. And you built up a social life? Good for you. You do know that things going well for you doesn't mean things are going to go swimmingly for everyone else right?

If you think that those people are the ones complaining about toxic masculinity, you haven't been paying attention.

General rule of thumb. If you have to say "you'd probably find it insulting," then maybe there's a good reason for it. The reason being that it was insulting.

Coming from you, that seriously means less than nothing. Maybe if that was coming from someone's whose opinion I actually respected, it would mean something. But it's coming from someone who would chastise me for breaking down over my suicidal thoughts. So yeah.

What the hell are you talking about? I call women assholes all the time. Mainly my sister. Because she is one. And sounds weird to call women a fag. A guy doesn't want to come across as homosexual? I...yes. Because it's been turned into an insult against masculinity by insecure men who think that insulting masculinity. And that being attracted to men is a grave insult. It doesn't work on women because of that. That's the point I was trying to make. That that mindset is bullshit. Are...are you paying attention? At all?

If you think that someone breaking down is pathetic, over suicidal thoughts I'd like to remind you, then to be perfectly frank, you're probably one of those very people I'm talking about.

Well. That says an awful lot about you. After the above, I have a hard time swallowing you use it in the South Park manner.

If you judge people over what arouses them in their private life, you're being awfully judgemental and superior. Something, I can't help but feel like, you've done squat to deserve.

Well that's ironic. Because in your attempt to argue against toxic masculinity being normal, you've basically been doing nothing but upholding it.

Yeah, it doesn't hurt them. It's just the fact that you're being rather holier than thou, on top of continuing to reinforce the idea that someone is "pathetic" if they aroused by something you consider to be unmanly. Yeah, except when you end up not thinking highly of something, it pays to have a reason for why you don't think highly of it other than it doesn't fit into your arbitrary world view of manliness.

You know, you say I'm not stupid, yet you've been very condescending to me the entire reply. I can't help but wonder what my post did to deserve this level of spite and ridicule. Ok, gonna have to stop you right there. First of all, point out where I said it should be considered normal to cry in public. I am not advocating that people cry in public, but rather that they not get bullied if they have a bad day. Because people have bad days, eventually things just get to us and we snap. You've pulled pretty much what every single person does in your situation and jump to the far end and act like I'm advocating for people to cry at the drop of the hat. And I'm sorry, you have no right to accuse me of not being well adjusted. The fact that I pointed out that getting bullied for being emotional in school is a bad thing, and it earned this level of disdain from me makes me laugh. You really want to paint me as someone who isn't well adjusted. For thinking people shouldn't be bullied. When that simple concept earned this level of scorn from you.

So we've moved from strawman arguments into Ad Hominem. I find it highly ironic that you are acting like toxic masculinity isn't a problem while you're moving dangerously close to virgin shaming territory. As for why I went there...I have to ask how that's any of your business. Considering the way you've been treating me, I see no good answer to that question. Because it isn't.

*Raises eyebrow* Me pointing out irony and hypocrisy is calling them fags? That's a desperate reach man. Mainly because drawing dicks isn't an act of sexual attraction. And your post was full of such desperate reaches

"I think you're a well meaning guy," you ever hear the old saying that everything before the word "but" doesn't count? I don't understand people nearly as well as I think I do? Yeah. You've done very little to prove that. The only thing you've done is been rather condescending and then acted like you proved a point. "I don't hate you." Your point? And arrogant? You're calling me arrogant after everything you just posted? Full of scorn and ridicule in response to a rather mild mannered post? Oh. That's rich.

And dude, let's do a quick recount. You've acted like taking abuse for being emotional is something that should be expected. You came within an inch of virgin shaming. You call people who perform sexual acts that don't fit in the accepted world of manliness "pathetic." You flat out said fag was used as an insult because boys and men don't want to be seen as homosexual without seeing the inherent problem in that mindset. You act like someone crying in public ever means that they aren't well adjusted. Apparently even when my dog died I wasn't permitted to cry then.

You wanted an example of toxic masculinity? Well. I think you provided a better example than I ever could. If I had been surrounded by people like you my entire life, I'd probably be dead right now. And knowing you, you'll probably try to turn my suicidal thoughts into an insult against me.

EDIT: You know, say what you will about Gorfias, at least he has refrained from outright insulting people for disagreeing with him.

"How dare your not be able to read my thoughts, you are garbage for not reading my thoughts."

erttheking:
You're talking about people being shamed for men

With TV bombarding us with the dumb dad in pop culture and commercials? That men being attracted to the female form is somehow something to be quashed (it's objectification). And how do you think laid off men are treated? Like upset victims or losers? I don't know how we turn this stuff around, but we start by talking about it.

The Decapitated Centaur:

Oooooh? What are those 'basic aspects'?

For starters, heterosexual men are attracted to the female form (don't know what the deal is with gay men with other gay men). This is called, as noted above, "objectification". I don't think any other sexuality would be so vilified for so primal a drive.

Baffle2:

Are you not therefore concerned that men are much more likely to commit violent crimes?

No man is an island. WHY are so many men committing violent crimes in the USA? I think our society is failing them in some ways. Sure, I'm glad their are prisons. But I'm thinking that a more just society that has respect and better social roles for men would result in less violent crime by them.

But the very term, "toxic masculinity" is an attack. I cannot think of a similar term for women.

Feminazi? I'm sure if you keep watching those videos you'll find plenty of similar terms, you just won't recognise them as such.

Feminazi is a term used by us Plebes, not the elite. At least in Western culture. I'm writing of government program, educational initiatives, UN topics. I cannot think of an equivalent term for female nature, at least not in those circles.

Gorfias:
[
With TV bombarding us with the dumb dad in pop culture and commercials?

It is an annoying stereotype, but if you think you see more of that in advertising than you see tits tits tits tits tits, then you're watching different channels to the rest of us.

No man is an island. WHY are so many men committing violent crimes in the USA? I think our society is failing them in some ways. Sure, I'm glad their are prisons. But I'm thinking that a more just society that has respect and better social roles for men would result in less violent crime by them.

Do you feel the same way about all violence - that it's a response to society failing the violent group?

Baffle2:

Gorfias:
[
With TV bombarding us with the dumb dad in pop culture and commercials?

It is an annoying stereotype, but if you think you see more of that in advertising than you see tits tits tits tits tits, then you're watching different channels to the rest of us.

I'm in the USA. Sex sells. There's been a lot of condemning of tits (and worse: juvenile bad things happening to women. There was something at a football tv event with Bud I think, and commentators were like, "uh, Bud, you do know women like watching football too, right?") I want to make the dumb man stereotype just as uncomfortable. In ads. TV, just, a little more equity please. Lucille Ball was pretty damn funny and the butt of jokes on her sitcom. Doesn't always have to be the men.

No man is an island. WHY are so many men committing violent crimes in the USA? I think our society is failing them in some ways. Sure, I'm glad their are prisons. But I'm thinking that a more just society that has respect and better social roles for men would result in less violent crime by them.

Do you feel the same way about all violence - that it's a response to society failing the violent group?

No. There's always going to be residual crime. Even countries with much lower crime rates than the USA still have some crime. But I think we can have those lower (than current USA) crime rates too.

Gorfias:

Do you feel the same way about all violence - that it's a response to society failing the violent group?

No. There's always going to be residual crime. Even countries with much lower crime rates than the USA still have some crime. But I think we can have those lower (than current USA) crime rates too.

It sounds like you're saying that violence by men is the fault of society (not the men), but violence by other groups is the fault of those groups (not society). Where does this gap come from? Why is it not due to failings of society that women felt the need to protest at an MRA meeting (I didn't watch the video, but that's the sense I got from what you said)?

Baffle2:

Gorfias:

Do you feel the same way about all violence - that it's a response to society failing the violent group?

No. There's always going to be residual crime. Even countries with much lower crime rates than the USA still have some crime. But I think we can have those lower (than current USA) crime rates too.

It sounds like you're saying that violence by men is the fault of society (not the men), but violence by other groups is the fault of those groups (not society). Where does this gap come from?

Not that I was going there, but an interesting thought. Public female violent crime is lower than males and they have a more supported social role. I think it makes sense with more public/social support, male public violent crime rates and incarceration rates might fall.

As I wrote, I'm glad there are prisons. There are people that need jailing. But I have to think society can have an impact in lowering that per capita amount.

Why is it not due to failings of society that women felt the need to protest at an MRA meeting (I didn't watch the video, but that's the sense I got from what you said)?

Who says it isn't? I think many of the young women doing the "protesting" were brain washed. They've been in government institutions for some 16 of their 20ish years in which they've been alive.

We start turning that around by talking about it. Which is what we're doing here.

Gorfias:

Not that I was going there, but an interesting thought. Public female violent crime is lower than males and they have a more supported social role.

You're going to need to prove the bit in bold I think, because it doesn't sound like a fact.

Who says it isn't? I think many of the young women doing the "protesting" were brain washed. They've been in government institutions for some 16 of their 20ish years in which they've been alive.

And are men immune to this brainwashing? Or is it the brainwashing that makes them go out and commit acts of violence?

Gorfias:
No man is an island. WHY are so many men committing violent crimes in the USA? I think our society is failing them in some ways. Sure, I'm glad their are prisons. But I'm thinking that a more just society that has respect and better social roles for men would result in less violent crime by them.

That is to say, the way our society views masculinity is in some ways toxic. Sarkeesian used the term explicitly about the higher rate of violent crime committed by men.

Gorfias:

Again: see the video above and read what I wrote to BeetleManiac: the issue is that there are very powerful and influential people out there that want to define what masculinity is and it isn't good.

You associated a set of specific behaviours with maleness; Emma Watson did not. You cannot merely repeat the same accusation when it's been soundly rejected.

The video you provided launches into some risible hyperbole and inaccuracy almost immediately; it should be obvious that it has very little interest in portraying the issue in a balanced way. As others have encouraged already, you really shouldn't be sourcing your viewpoints on political topics from Youtube commentators with an axe to grind.

Gorfias:

And of course, they're not just going to walk away. No, they are going to use government to force a conformity they desire. Another example:


I know, the UN is not an enforcement entity. Yet. Still problematic.

There's no enforcing of conformity there at all-- not even the suggestion of such.

Again, you've merely provided a video from a tremendously hyperbolic, one-sided source, and run with that as truth. It's such a flimsy approach.

Gorfias:
Snip

Tv stereotypes? That's fucking it? That's your proof for how things are bad for men? There are far more vicious stereotypes of nearly every other demographic. And even then, the person embarrassed by the dad is ANITHER man. And TV as a whole tends to pander to men. News flash, unemployed women don't exactly get rainbows and sunshine. My sister is proof of that. And even then, a lot of the stigma men face for unemployment comes from other men. From the thing you and others just don't want to talk about. Toxic. Masculinity.

This sure won't lead to fraternization of any kind...

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