School Segregation

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By gender. Not your American thing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-41609861

So an Islamic school has been found to be discriminating by having boys and girls classes separately, apparently without any clear discrimination in terms of subjects etc. beyond that. (This also applies to a host of other religious schools, but this is the one around which the case takes place)

My question being - how is a school allowing boys and girls, but segregating them, worse than only allowing one or the other - single sex schools exist and have not been forced to change their policies at all.

Honestly yeah I don't see how it's worse really. I think it's stupid in either case but it's just effectively simulating a boys only and girls only school with the same teachers. Suppose there could be some negative social aspect to it given they're in proximity but segregated but it's pretty similar otherwise

Yeah, I'm not seeing the difference between this and separate boys only/girls only schools, except for the spooky scary Muslim stuff.

Maybe my cynicism is out of place and they're actually going to put the whole thing down.

I know there are Catholic schools that do that, and I know of two Catholic schools in Phoenix that are separated by gender.

Brophy College Preparatory for boys and Xavier College Preparatory for girls, for those that are curious.

So, I don't see what the big deal is about an Islamist school doing that.

It would be one thing if the school was mono gendered, an all Boy School or an All Girl School, but this seems like a waste of resources. This isn't Iran. This isn't Saudi Arabia. Hell, I don't think this would fly in Turkey, the Palestinian parts of Israel, modern Egypt. Could be wrong, need someone with more knowledge on those areas.

But a Western nation, a multi cultural nation, a nation where the expectations of women are vastly different then what abominations go on in the more "Traditional" Parts of the Middle East?

This is ridiculous.

saint of m:
It would be one thing if the school was mono gendered, an all Boy School or an All Girl School, but this seems like a waste of resources. This isn't Iran. This isn't Saudi Arabia. Hell, I don't think this would fly in Turkey, the Palestinian parts of Israel, modern Egypt. Could be wrong, need someone with more knowledge on those areas.

But a Western nation, a multi cultural nation, a nation where the expectations of women are vastly different then what abominations go on in the more "Traditional" Parts of the Middle East?

This is ridiculous.

To repeat an argument put forth in court, what makes this different than having two buildings separated by a fence?

If anything, having just the one building is saving resources, if inequality isn't found in anything besides the specific classroom makeup.

If the subjects that are taught are the same and in the same levels I can't find anything wrong with it.

So, am I the only one who feels religious schools shouldn't exist in a regular society? I mean, okay, I think ideally people should only be able to join a religion when their adults perios but even I know that's utopian. But I think at least schools raising children religiously neutral shouldn't be too much to ask for.

Well, I find neither seperated classes nor seperated schools a particularly good idea but allowing one but not the other is just stupid and hypocritical. I think it is better if children are thaught to interact with one another and if they aren't seperated from half of eachother at a young age. If you want to do something about that though, do it consistently and without incredibly obvious loopholes.

PsychedelicDiamond:
So, am I the only one who feels religious schools shouldn't exist in a regular society? I mean, okay, I think ideally people should only be able to join a religion when their adults perios but even I know that's utopian. But I think at least schools raising children religiously neutral shouldn't be too much to ask for.

I tend to agree in principle though I'm not sure it is worth it to do much about this in practical terms. Religious schools are often good schools with one hour of reading the bible every week and banning them would come with a lot of reorganisation and would be taken as a dick move by the religious. If I got to choose right now I would be against it, but as a matter of tolerance (in the sense of letting things go that you don't really approve of) I don't really find it worth it to push for that. Though I live in a country where the freedom to have religious schools is in the constitution (even though the constitution has only symbolic value here) so perhaps it'd be more of an uphill battle for me than for you.

Catnip1024:
My question being - how is a school allowing boys and girls, but segregating them, worse than only allowing one or the other - single sex schools exist and have not been forced to change their policies at all.

I think that this case will set a precedent for all schools, not just Muslim ones.

Vanilla ISIS:

Catnip1024:
My question being - how is a school allowing boys and girls, but segregating them, worse than only allowing one or the other - single sex schools exist and have not been forced to change their policies at all.

I think that this case will set a precedent for all schools, not just Muslim ones.

Well, it's noted that it applies to a number of faith schools - Jewish and Catholic included. But in the UK you have completely single sex schools. Which are not affected by the ruling, by the looks of it. If they were, it would be a much larger story due to the number of schools affected.

Fiz_The_Toaster:
Brophy College Preparatory for boys

Brophy? You have got to be kidding...

Pseudonym:
Religious schools are often good schools with one hour of reading the bible every week and banning them would come with a lot of reorganisation and would be taken as a dick move by the religious.

Yup. I know a number of people who have pretended to be Catholic to get their kids into a better school.

And the proponents also go on about the whole giving the kid a good moral framework thing, even if they aren't actually big on the religion specifics.

Catnip1024:

Fiz_The_Toaster:
Brophy College Preparatory for boys

Brophy? You have got to be kidding...

Pseudonym:
Religious schools are often good schools with one hour of reading the bible every week and banning them would come with a lot of reorganisation and would be taken as a dick move by the religious.

Yup. I know a number of people who have pretended to be Catholic to get their kids into a better school.

And the proponents also go on about the whole giving the kid a good moral framework thing, even if they aren't actually big on the religion specifics.

thats odd, you dont have to be catholic to get into catholic schools in my area. There are athiests and muslims in the ones in my city, they just get a study hall whilst the others do their bible thing.

The issue is obviously cultural.

Mono-gendered schools have functioned fine for many years.

Of course it's going to be a problem when Islamic schools come about, given its beliefs on women.

We shouldn't sacrifice our traditions, and options for children just because of a foreign culture's interpretation.

Yeah sound like good old religious discrimination, I really don't see how you can be okay with single sex school but not okay with co-ed that have single sex class (hell in the second case they can still mingle during recess lunch but not in the first) hypocrisy at its finest.

Religious school are kinda weird, most of them aren't actually religious anyway, anybody can go in and you don't even have to attend the religious study.

Ryotknife:
thats odd, you dont have to be catholic to get into catholic schools in my area. There are athiests and muslims in the ones in my city, they just get a study hall whilst the others do their bible thing.

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure how it works - I know my local Catholic school growing up wasn't too picky - but the people I know have been having to attend church regularly, sort of thing. I think theirs may be subtly different to most.

HAHAHAHA, oh, Europe. Oh wait, my country is also in rapid cultural, demographic, and economic decline? Well, shit.

I don't really see the problem. Just because it is Muslim doesn't make it a special case, unless you have a serious case of Islamophobia that cannot be treated with rational political discourse. While I understand the fear behind Islamic extremist groups formulating in the UK, I don't see the fear in their children being taught in a way that Catholics have done it for years, only in a single school instead of two neighbouring schools. This is a thing that religious schools do. I do not see the issue at all.

sensual offender:
HAHAHAHA, oh, Europe. Oh wait, my country is also in rapid cultural, demographic, and economic decline? Well, shit.

Your name reeks with arrogance alongside that statement. I hope to Christ that you are trolling.

Borty The Bort:
I hope to Christ that you are trolling.

Not even a tad, chap. I'm no fluff-talker, neither. I'm prepared to leave by 2025 or sooner.

The Lunatic:
The issue is obviously cultural.

Mono-gendered schools have functioned fine for many years.

Of course it's going to be a problem when Islamic schools come about, given its beliefs on women.

We shouldn't sacrifice our traditions, and options for children just because of a foreign culture's interpretation.

Missed the bits where inspectors didn't have a problem with this school doing it for five years, or that there's Christian and Jewish school doing the same thing?

To repeat a question:

altnameJag:
...what makes this different than having two buildings separated by a fence?

altnameJag:
Missed the bits where inspectors didn't have a problem with this school doing it for five years, or that there's Christian and Jewish school doing the same thing?

Inspects did find a problem, in 2016.

Ofsted inspections happen every 5-6 years, and the policy only came into place in 2010. So, chances are this is the first time the school was assessed since the policy established in 2010. Or, it may be that the Ofsted, being the joke that it is, inspected and didn't find a problem.

altnameJag:
...what makes this different than having two buildings separated by a fence?

This has already been answered.

Islam. You know, the belief that makes women cover themselves head to toe in oppressive clothing, forces them into arranged marriages, doesn't allow them to drive and generally restricts their rights.

If you can't tell the contextual differences between a British school doing it and an Islamic one, I suggest you educate yourself on the beliefs of Islam.

The Lunatic:
Islam. You know, the belief that makes women cover themselves head to toe in oppressive clothing,

What exactly makes the clothing, in an of itself, oppressive?

And, how exactly do you determine whether someone is wearing said clothing because they are forced to by societal/cultural expectations, or they are simply expressing their agency by acknowledging that they have the choice to defy those expectations, but choose to conform anyway?

madwarper:
What exactly makes the clothing, in an of itself, oppressive?

Gravity, at a guess.

The Lunatic:

This has already been answered.

Islam. You know, the belief that makes women cover themselves head to toe in oppressive clothing, forces them into arranged marriages, doesn't allow them to drive and generally restricts their rights.

If you can't tell the contextual differences between a British school doing it and an Islamic one, I suggest you educate yourself on the beliefs of Islam.

So, a British Christian school or a British Jewish school should have more leeway with gender segregation than a British Islamic school, because of traditional religious clothing that you don't even know if it was being enforced?

madwarper:
What exactly makes the clothing, in an of itself, oppressive?

Equally interesting, how is it more oppresive than the clothing norms that the police will enforce in the west.

altnameJag:
Yeah, I'm not seeing the difference between this and separate boys only/girls only schools, except for the spooky scary Muslim stuff.

Maybe my cynicism is out of place and they're actually going to put the whole thing down.

There is a key difference between having a school that accepts only girls or only boys, and having a school which accepts both, but then decides which classes those girls and boys are allowed to do based on gender.

I'd argue that girls schools and boy schools are, regardless of their prestige and grade averages, a vestige of a more sexist era. But these schools being done by the Ofsted (and they include Jewish and Christian, as well as Islamic) are way more egregious in their sexism. By having it under one roof, it makes it way more obvious when you are telling one set of kids how inherently different and irreconcilable you are with the other. The argument, as perverse as the logic is on inspection, is that a girl's school makes its decision about what to teach for the benefit of all its kids regardless of their gender, not withstanding the fact that their school policy only permits entry to one gender.

It's kind of like having segregated restrooms with different facilities for men and women in each, versus having a unisex toilet that has rules on the door about what facilities you are allowed to use, based on gender. The fact that the builders decided to make the women's restrooms have fewer cubicles is on its own a problem, but less blatant a problem than a list of rules telling women how to pee.

They arent worse. But I dont think either of them really are good.

maninahat:

altnameJag:
Yeah, I'm not seeing the difference between this and separate boys only/girls only schools, except for the spooky scary Muslim stuff.

Maybe my cynicism is out of place and they're actually going to put the whole thing down.

There is a key difference between having a school that accepts only girls or only boys, and having a school which accepts both, but then decides which classes those girls and boys are allowed to do based on gender.

I'd argue that girls schools and boy schools are, regardless of their prestige and grade averages, a vestige of a more sexist era. But these schools being done by the Ofsted (and they include Jewish and Christian, as well as Islamic) are way more egregious in their sexism. By having it under one roof, it makes it way more obvious when you are telling one set of kids how inherently different and irreconcilable you are with the other. The argument, as perverse as the logic is on inspection, is that a girl's school makes its decision about what to teach for the benefit of all its kids regardless of their gender, not withstanding the fact that their school policy only permits entry to one gender.

It's kind of like having segregated restrooms with different facilities for men and women in each, versus having a unisex toilet that has rules on the door about what facilities you are allowed to use, based on gender. The fact that the builders decided to make the women's restrooms have fewer cubicles is on its own a problem, but less blatant a problem than a list of rules telling women how to pee.

There's nothing in the OP's article about discrimination in class quality or subjects, just student ratios.

If anybody has more precise information, that'd be great.

'Separate But Equal' never is.

For sure. Gendered schools should probably end as a concept.

Sex-segregated schools are such a weird concept to me, as it's been something that was abolished here in like the 70's.

Catnip1024:
My question being - how is a school allowing boys and girls, but segregating them, worse than only allowing one or the other - single sex schools exist and have not been forced to change their policies at all.

That's a good question. I don't know what the answer is, but an idea...

1) Single sex school are all independent. This means they are beyond the remit of relevant government policies.

2) There is a difference in gender segregation into different schools and within the same school. Every student in the same school is theoretically equal to his or her classmates, but schools may (and perhaps have to) differ from one another. In the case of single sex schools, single sex education being the intrinsic school remit, it does not imply any difference or discrimination between genders. However, within a mixed school, segregation implies differences in gender and at worst may also result in discrimination.

The issue is having State funded religious schools at all. The French have the right idea, completely secular publics services, no faith schools, no crosses, no pentacle, no burkahs... religion is for personal consumption only.

Agema:

Catnip1024:
My question being - how is a school allowing boys and girls, but segregating them, worse than only allowing one or the other - single sex schools exist and have not been forced to change their policies at all.

"That's a good question. I don't know what the answer is, but an idea...

1) Single sex school are all independent. This means they are beyond the remit of relevant government policies.

2) There is a difference in gender segregation into different schools and within the same school. Every student in the same school is theoretically equal to his or her classmates, but schools may (and perhaps have to) differ from one another. In the case of single sex schools, single sex education being the intrinsic school remit, it does not imply any difference or discrimination between genders. However, within a mixed school, segregation implies differences in gender and at worst may also result in discrimination.

Re 1, I thought this initially, and it seems most are private, but in 2010 12% of State schools were still single sex (latest figures I could find).

It seems 2 is the winner, the argument being discrimination on a single campus can occur. It also seems there is an active drive to remove single sex environments and the only stumbling block is the cost of amalgamating existing setups and finding male / female environments close enough to merge.

Catnip1024:
Yup. I know a number of people who have pretended to be Catholic to get their kids into a better school.

I hear that's hell on your knees. (There's a [not really] joke in there, on account of the amount of guilt Catholics have to carry around and grovel over [to other Catholics, obv.], as well as the number of sexual abusers the Church have protected over the years.)

Edit: OT, sex-segregated schools (single-sex and segregated as in this topic) should be ended. They're ridiculous and do nothing to help people equalise, or to understand people of the other sex. And that seems to make a mess.

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