#MeToo and a Response to it

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Agema:
Radical notion here: learn how to approach a woman in a non-aggressive fashion that makes your interest known but isn't going to scare, disgust, or creep them out.

Just in this last week, I asked three different women if they were seeing anyone and they politely turned me down because they were. Nothing bad at all happened to me. The paranoiac MRA fantasies about getting accused of rape just for saying "Hello," are so divorced from reality that I'm starting to suspect these guys staying out of the dating scene because of their irrational fears and resentment is doing the women of the world a huge favor.

BeetleManiac:

Agema:
Radical notion here: learn how to approach a woman in a non-aggressive fashion that makes your interest known but isn't going to scare, disgust, or creep them out.

Just in this last week, I asked three different women if they were seeing anyone and they politely turned me down because they were. Nothing bad at all happened to me. The paranoiac MRA fantasies about getting accused of rape just for saying "Hello," are so divorced from reality that I'm starting to suspect these guys staying out of the dating scene because of their irrational fears and resentment is doing the women of the world a huge favor.

I've seen a number of posts on Facebook and the like whereby people (almost always men) lament how hard it is to meet people and whining about times they tried to chat someone up in every day life and getting rebuked. Why the hell are you bothering people on the street? If I see an attractive woman eating lunch in the park or something my first thought is that she probably enjoys eating outside, not that she wants her day interrupted by whatever the fuck I have to say. It's the height of arrogance to think that your presence is going to automatically improve someone's afternoon.

There is a time and a place. I've chatted up women in bars and at house parties and BBQs and stuff and it has never been an issue because people go to those events to socialize. If you're pestering people on the bus or street or in the coffee shop or whatever, maybe rethink your strategy. It's not hard to meet people if you know what the fuck you are doing and go to places where people go to actually meet strangers.

Chewster:
It's not hard to meet people if you know what the fuck you are doing and go to places where people go to actually meet strangers.

I thought the tough part wasn't meeting people but getting rejected again and again. I guess some people don't mind too much, others do. I'd welcome more development on dealing with that part. Like, complaining about the whole situation for one, as you can't know exactly why it keeps happening. The reasons are probably coincidental, but that doesn't stop one's imagination (among other confirmation you can find for just about anything these days).

McElroy:

Chewster:
It's not hard to meet people if you know what the fuck you are doing and go to places where people go to actually meet strangers.

I thought the tough part wasn't meeting people but getting rejected again and again. I guess some people don't mind too much, others do. I'd welcome more development on dealing with that part. Like, complaining about the whole situation for one, as you can't know exactly why it keeps happening. The reasons are probably coincidental, but that doesn't stop one's imagination (among other confirmation you can find for just about anything these days).

Rejection is a part of life, my man. I do all right for myself as far as sex and romance is concerned and I've been rejected by more people than I'd care to think about. It happens. You mope about it for a bit, maybe bitch to some friends and then you pick yourself up and try again. There is no magic formula to talking to people or trying to get laid. And I've been on dates where it was obvious the girl was more into me than vice versa, so all those hurt feelings go both ways. Honestly, all those PUA scumbags do is teach dudes to dress well, have confidence and play the numbers game, which means talking to as many women as is possible in the hopes of landing one out of a hundred. They get rejected as much as anyone does, they just hide their hurt feelings better. And there is no one reason that a person gets rejected by different people (unless you have some glaring and disturbing personality quirk or horrible hygiene or something). It's complicated and people are complicated. One person might not dig your vibe, but another might.

I can sympathize with someone if they are introverted. I used the be pretty shy in my younger days. You just gotta learn to put yourself out there and fuck what people think. That doesn't mean you need to run around being an outrageous asshole like that Mystery Man dingus, or whatever the fuck his name is, but just learn to be comfortable and confident enough with yourself. Find solid, non-judgmental extroverted friends and observe how they act and try to come out of your shell more. With time, it gets easier.

And if you're having trouble meeting people, try changing it up from the usual bar/club scene, which a lot of people loathe for various reasons (and fair enough, bars can get tedious, especially if you don't like drinking). Go take an art class at the local rec center. Join a tabletop gaming club. Take a spin class. Go to local indie concerts. Join a hiking group. Find people with similar interests as you. Just try something new.

EDIT: added some stuff.

BeetleManiac:

Agema:
Radical notion here: learn how to approach a woman in a non-aggressive fashion that makes your interest known but isn't going to scare, disgust, or creep them out.

Just in this last week, I asked three different women if they were seeing anyone and they politely turned me down because they were. Nothing bad at all happened to me. The paranoiac MRA fantasies about getting accused of rape just for saying "Hello," are so divorced from reality that I'm starting to suspect these guys staying out of the dating scene because of their irrational fears and resentment is doing the women of the world a huge favor.

There is some truth to the 'fantasies'. Anyone remember the Rolling Stone UVA article, as just one example? Remember what happened to the Phi Kappa Psi chapter house, from locals, all based on the article? If I recall correctly, there was a march of several hundred people , all convinced the Psi people were rapists. I honestly would not have been surprised if the Psi people would have been lynched.

Agema:

inu-kun:
in the absolute majority of society it is the man's duty to appraoch women, this creates a catch 22 scenario: Either take the initiative and risk being misunderstood or don't approach and wait forever to a woman to engage you.

Radical notion here: learn how to approach a woman in a non-aggressive fashion that makes your interest known but isn't going to scare, disgust, or creep them out.

You might be amazed how easy it is.

Sorry, but that is stupid.

There is literally no way to "make your interest known" that has not the chance to disgust or creep someone out if they find the idea of sex with you repulsive. If it was something one could learn or simply do, why do you think, that doesn't happen ? (Nearly) no one wants to freak people out or be a creep.

The only thing that can be influenced a tiny bit is the "scare" part, usually by choosing an invironment/ a situation that is appropriate.
And yes, that is something most people get wrong. The person sharing their interest usually doesn't want all the world to know as that is something deeply personal. But those private situations where no third party is listening are also situations where no third party could intervene and thus potentially more threatening.

Satinavian:
Sorry, but that is stupid.

There is literally no way to "make your interest known" that has not the chance to disgust or creep someone out if they find the idea of sex with you repulsive.

<eyeroll>

If a man happens to be repellent to a woman for some sort of innate reason, it's outside the boundaries of learning to approach people in an appropriate and respectful fashion, isn't it?

RikuoAmero:
There is some truth to the 'fantasies'. Anyone remember the Rolling Stone UVA article, as just one example? Remember what happened to the Phi Kappa Psi chapter house, from locals, all based on the article? If I recall correctly, there was a march of several hundred people , all convinced the Psi people were rapists. I honestly would not have been surprised if the Psi people would have been lynched.

Yes, careless and incompetent media reporting can be dangerous. What that has to do with asking women out, however, I'm not sure.

There are undoubtedly a few women out there who are a little bit unstable, and there's always the chance you are unlucky enough to chance your arm with one. Those few are not, however, reasonable grounds to make sweeping statements about women and asking women out generally.

* * *

Really, and I'm just going to be harsh here, a lot of the complaints about dating and women come from men who are terrible at making themselves attractive to the opposite sex. Nothing per se wrong with that: it's the baseline most men start at, and learning is about making ourselves better at things. But some men seem to make their difficulties pathological and start developing all sorts of unhealthy notions about and attitudes to women and dating. This just digs the hole even deeper because it makes it harder for them to effectively relate to women.

Agema:

Satinavian:
Sorry, but that is stupid.

There is literally no way to "make your interest known" that has not the chance to disgust or creep someone out if they find the idea of sex with you repulsive.

<eyeroll>

If a man happens to be repellent to a woman for some sort of innate reason, it's outside the boundaries of learning to approach people in an appropriate and respectful fashion, isn't it?

- I already assumed appropriate and respectful behavior. That is kind of the default.

- It is still going to disgust or creep them out because already the idea of considering the person as a sexual being is enough to trigger that.

As for those false rape accusations, i don't think that is related to dating. Those seem to happen mostly in two situations :

- messy breakups (some persons can get really irrational and distructive in such situations)

- escalation of other conflicts without any sexual relationship ever having existed

So i don't think "not dating" can really protect someone from that.

Satinavian:
Sorry, but that is stupid.

There is literally no way to "make your interest known" that has not the chance to disgust or creep someone out if they find the idea of sex with you repulsive.

On more than one occasion, I've been hit on by gay men. I'm straight and have no interest in dudes whatsoever. I was still civil about letting them know that fact. There are a lot of assholes in this world, but you'd be surprised how many people try not to be one.

Satinavian:
- I already assumed appropriate and respectful behavior. That is kind of the default.

And why would you do that in a thread discussing a campaign of women complaining about all the inappropriate and disrespectful behaviour they have been subjected to?

It is still going to disgust or creep them out because already the idea of considering the person as a sexual being is enough to trigger that.

Are you deliberately trying to be as unconstructive as possible?

BeetleManiac:

On more than one occasion, I've been hit on by gay men. I'm straight and have no interest in dudes whatsoever. I was still civil about letting them know that fact. There are a lot of assholes in this world, but you'd be surprised how many people try not to be one.

I assume most people try.

But yes, sometimes people manage to show interest, it is ot reciprocated and it still does not produce creepy feelings.

But i meant something different. A couple of years ago in a group of ~ 20 people of both sexes we tried to codify what is appropriate behavior to show your interest and what is not. An important tangent was creepiness and which action, behavior or situation would be creepy (based on anecdotical experience).
Sure, it was not really scientific, but people were interested enough.
But ... it went nowhere. The personal feelings about what is creepy, who is creepy and so on did not match at all. Most participants also stated that some action done by one person would result in a different perception than the same action done by another person, based on expectations and prejudices about the person doing that action. One woman also stated that her perception of what is creepy and what isn't depended strongly on her cycle, but other women did not confirm that.

Overall, it was a couple of weeks in that small hobby based community resulting in basically nothing substantial. Thankfully the whole discussion was started over some external event, not about some complaint about behavior. Still would have been nice to have some guidelines or checklist for potential future drama.

So, based on that and other smaller events, i argue strongly against the notion that you can somehow learn to be not creepy.

Satinavian:
So, based on that and other smaller events, i argue strongly against the notion that you can somehow learn to be not creepy.

Cool story, bro. I'll just take this as an indirect compliment on how attractive, charming and affable I am in real life.

Agema:
And why would you do that in a thread discussing a campaign of women complaining about all the inappropriate and disrespectful behaviour they have been subjected to?

Because i assumed, it got sidetracked enough and we were now discussing a different topic.

As for the topic :

I don't do social media, Hollywood is half a world away in a very different culture and i never heard about Weinstein or most of the other celebrities before. I have nothing to contribute to #Metoo. As for the response and response to the response, i don't agree with either one. The response is full of unhelpful advice, but the response to the response is more concerned with scoring points than with actually improving on the advice. I already commented on that but it didn't spawn a discussion or even a response, instead people switched to partisan fight again (and my interest in US internal politics is lackluster)

So, looking in the thread after a while and seeing that it moved to somewhat interesting, i responded to the tangent.

Are you deliberately trying to be as unconstructive as possible?

No.

I am serious. "What is proper acceptable behavior if you find someone attractive and might want to start a relationship" is a good question. As is "How do you actually judge the intentions of people you interact with" and "How would you know if someone is trying to flirt with you/ How can you recognice if someone is interested in you" and "Which kinds of bounderies should a society enforce to both allow people to find sexual partners while still limiting sexual harrassment as best as possible"

BeetleManiac:

Satinavian:
So, based on that and other smaller events, i argue strongly against the notion that you can somehow learn to be not creepy.

Cool story, bro. I'll just take this as an indirect compliment on how attractive, charming and affable I am in real life.

Sure, why not.

But another question that was asked (and not answered) was "How would you ever know if someone finds you creepy? Especcially if that someone also might be a bit scared and thus unlikely to provoke you in any way?"

Satinavian:
But another question that was asked (and not answered) was "How would you ever know if someone finds you creepy? Especcially if that someone also might be a bit scared and thus unlikely to provoke you in any way?"

There are no guarantees in life. Get used to it. It isn't that hard to tell when someone wants to end a conversation, though. Your problem as I see it is that you're making things far more complicated than they need to be.

Eh, if a guy is worried that approaching women will make them afraid he is going to rape them, he should probably not approach them. And not because he should be afraid of false accusations, but because he shouldn't be going round frightening women.

Satinavian:
I am serious. "What is proper acceptable behavior if you find someone attractive and might want to start a relationship" is a good question. As is "How do you actually judge the intentions of people you interact with" and "How would you know if someone is trying to flirt with you/ How can you recognice if someone is interested in you" and "Which kinds of bounderies should a society enforce to both allow people to find sexual partners while still limiting sexual harrassment as best as possible"

You're talking about women being repelled about being approached. In which case the issue is not whether a woman is disturbed by any factors involved in her being approached, but specifically whether the manner in which she was approached was liable to disturb her.

If you want to discuss general dating advice and how to effectively interact with your fellow human beings, this is probably not the best place to ask.

runic knight:

You made the case based on your own lack of experience. Your personal incredulity being called out is what would be expected as your lack of seeing something you don't want to see does not mean anything to anyone else who has seen it.

No, actually, I didn't appeal merely to my not having experienced it. I claimed it wasn't common, ordinary behaviour; I didn't argue that my own experiences should somehow compel you to believe that.

Your own claim-- that it is ordinary behaviour-- is also based on experience, I assume? Why should that be more compelling?

runic knight:

Considering the commonplace nature of such jokes, not being aware of them can only be because of either lack of experience in that would allow you to run across them, or an intentionally protected and privileged life that affords you the means to avoid them.

Furthermore, considering the commonality of complaints about rape and sexual assault jokes and the ties to the notion of rape culture as an example of the normality of rape and sexual assault by downplaying it with humor, your lack of awareness of such jokes and bravado is entirely abnormal and could only come about from being isolated in one form or another, be it by simple lack of experience and awareness that comes from that, or from being protected from it in some way or another.

I suppose there is also the option that you are being intentionally dishonest in your claim about it for the sake of supporting your position, but I always try to avoid assuming that til it is demonstrated.

I'm going to put aside the thinly-veiled accusation of lying at the end, there.

I am aware of jokes and bravado. You're repeatedly attempting to equate this example with any and all jokes relating to sexual impropriety, which is a huge false equivalence, but I'll address that properly later.

I want to focus on this notion of privilege you've brought up. Do you find it so difficult to believe that somebody could live their life without encountering bravado based around sexual assault, that there must have been ongoing conscious effort to avoid it?

If so, that line of reasoning is colossally presumptuous, generalising, and frankly contrived. And yet, it's the only line of reasoning I can imagine that would lead someone from point A (somebody doesn't hear about sexual assault) to point B (said somebody has been "afforded the means to avoid it").

runic knight:

Handwaving it away doesn't address it.

Sounds like you are making a case of special pleading here.

Should I link to articles bitching about rape jokes on tv, in movies or elswhere? Should I bring up controversies about e-celebs like Spoony making jokes about rape dungeons or video game competitions where people would say they were going to rape their opponents or reference dramas where a character says they can get what they want? Sort of limited to popular culture here to demonstrate the commonality of the occurrence since I can't use personal experiences, but it makes the point about the commonality of it happening. There are countless examples out there, hell, they served as a backbone for defending the very idea of "rape culture", so google makes it easy to find examples of people making sexual assault or rape jokes commonly and getting backlash for it. I could even argue that denying they exists would be denying that rape culture itself exists since they were a fundamental point of arguing about the commonality of rape culture (I don't think we have a rape culture myself, but the examples that are used to support that conclusion are there).

Your position is based on a claim that people don't joke about sexually assaulting someone, yet it seems any example I bring up is casually dismissed. So before you slide that goalpost further, define to me exactly the sort of example that would prove your stance wrong.

It is not "special pleading" to point out that the instances you are bringing up are nowhere near equivalent. I don't think you actually believe for a moment that joking about a vague, nonspecific "dungeon" is the same thing as claiming to have sexually assaulted a person you know.

The situations have to be vaguely equivalent for an accusation of "special pleading" to work.

runic knight:

Furthermore, for the sake of clarity, would you say that such jokes not being commonplace undermines any argument about there being a rape culture based on the idea that without such jokes being commonplace, a pillar of the idea of rape culture about the normalization of rape through jokes is thereby fundamentally absent?

Bait. You're not interested in my response to this.

Agema:

RikuoAmero:
There is some truth to the 'fantasies'. Anyone remember the Rolling Stone UVA article, as just one example? Remember what happened to the Phi Kappa Psi chapter house, from locals, all based on the article? If I recall correctly, there was a march of several hundred people , all convinced the Psi people were rapists. I honestly would not have been surprised if the Psi people would have been lynched.

Yes, careless and incompetent media reporting can be dangerous. What that has to do with asking women out, however, I'm not sure.

There are undoubtedly a few women out there who are a little bit unstable, and there's always the chance you are unlucky enough to chance your arm with one. Those few are not, however, reasonable grounds to make sweeping statements about women and asking women out generally.

Pardon me, but I'd like to clarify the point I made earlier, hopefully to have you understand what I mean. In the Rolling Stone article, an accusation of rape (or gang-rape I should say) was made. Today, it is generally regarded as being a false charge, but at the time, when it was fresh? It was treated as more or less gospel by society at large, and as a result of having this belief in their minds, members of Phi Kappa Psi were all but lynched.
If a man asks a girl out, or the two have some sort of fight, and she happens to make a rape accusation that later on down the line is found to either be unsubstantiated or outright false, that doesn't do anything to help the man in the present moment. In the present moment, he will face all sorts of serious consequences.

RikuoAmero:

If a man asks a girl out, or the two have some sort of fight, and she happens to make a rape accusation that later on down the line is found to either be unsubstantiated or outright false, that doesn't do anything to help the man in the present moment. In the present moment, he will face all sorts of serious consequences.

You can be hounded by the police and press because the police idiotically decided to fit you up for a murder. (Note that now in 2017, over 20 years after the murder and over 10 years after Stagg's complete exoneration and award of damages, the press are still printing stories delighting in his woes.) You can be hounded off the internet for being shot by a mass murderer. You can be put at serious risk of physical harm because some random internet goons convince themselves you're a terrorist from watching CCTV videos. You can lose your job and be blackballed due to a dumb but ultimately harmless photo stunt.

Such is modern life, unfortunately.

Mind you, in the old days, they used to literally execute witches due to public hysteria, hence the term "witch hunt". So perhaps it's got better.

* * *

Meanwhile, you can actually, really, rape someone... and have a ~99% chance of never even seeing the inside of a courtroom.. Being false accused of rape is almost certainly less likely to see you in trouble - there was, after all, no crime. How about that for risk of "serious consequences"?

Also, of course, bear in mind that requires being falsely accused of rape in the first place. Your chances of being falsely accused of rape are even more vanishingly small. Let's take the claim that ~300,000 instances of rape occur per year in the USA. If we assume a fake rape proportion of ~5%, that's 15,000 a year. If we equate "serious consequences" to the number of court cases for rape (although they may be media attention rather than trial) at 1% a year, that makes 150. So if 150 million Americans are sexually active, I guess that's about a 1 in a million chance of being unlucky. Obviously, that's random: actions you can take increase or decrease risk.

Note that ~500 people are hit by lighting in the USA every year (1:700,000), with ~50 fatalities. Just, you know, for some perspective about things to really worry about.

* * *

However, all the above is substantially wasted effort on my part. After all, it's got nothing to do with rational assessment about risk: it's about creating a narrative of injustice for ulterior political and ideological ends.

Agema:

Meanwhile, you can actually, really, rape someone... and have a ~99% chance of never even seeing the inside of a courtroom.. Being false accused of rape is almost certainly less likely to see you in trouble - there was, after all, no crime. How about that for risk of "serious consequences"?

According to that article, it is one convition per 15 rapes reported to the police. But those convicted are punished for an average of 2,3 rapes, which means that roughly 1 in 7 rape accusations lead to a jail sentence. All derived from the numbers in that article.

Not sure if you just read the sensationalist headline instead of the article or willfully twist the numbers.

I don't really have a response to the movement in general... but I don't think it's really my place to respond, either. Ideally, I'd just listen.

Satinavian:
According to that article, it is one convition per 15 rapes reported to the police. But those convicted are punished for an average of 2,3 rapes, which means that roughly 1 in 7 rape accusations lead to a jail sentence. All derived from the numbers in that article.

And, as we all know, most rapes aren't reported.

Thaluikhain:
And, as we all know, most rapes aren't reported.

That is most likely true.

But rapes not reported not leading to any convictions is hardly a failing of law enforcement or the justice system. Also estimates about unreported rapes are unreliable per nature. But even taking those into account, you will never reach 1 in 100, at best 1 in 40

Satinavian:

Agema:

Meanwhile, you can actually, really, rape someone... and have a ~99% chance of never even seeing the inside of a courtroom.. Being false accused of rape is almost certainly less likely to see you in trouble - there was, after all, no crime. How about that for risk of "serious consequences"?

According to that article, it is one convition per 15 rapes reported to the police. But those convicted are punished for an average of 2,3 rapes, which means that roughly 1 in 7 rape accusations lead to a jail sentence. All derived from the numbers in that article.

Not sure if you just read the sensationalist headline instead of the article or willfully twist the numbers.

The article says;

Fewer than one rape victim in 30 can expect to see her or his attacker brought to justice, shocking new statistics reveal.

Only 1,070 rapists are convicted every year despite up to 95,000 people ? the vast majority of them women ? suffering the trauma of rape ? according to the new research by the Ministry of Justice, the Home Office and the Office for National Statistics.

The figures have reignited controversy over the stubbornly low conviction rates for sex crimes, as well as the difficulties in persuading victims to go to police in the first place.

Although 90 per cent of rape victims said they knew the identity of their attacker, just 15 per cent went to the police, telling researchers it was ?too embarrassing?, ?too trivial? or a ?private/family matter?.

Between 60,000 and 95,000 people are estimated to be raped each year.

About one woman in 200 told researchers she had fallen victim in the previous 12 months, suggesting that between 54,000 and 85,000 women were raped over the year. Several thousand men are also raped every year.

An average of 15,670 rapes are reported annually to police, less than one-quarter of which result in a suspect being identified.

Many of those are not brought to court as hundreds of women drop out at this point as they cannot face the ordeal of giving evidence against her attacker.

Prosecutions are mounted against 2,910 individuals, resulting in the convictions of 1,070 rapists who committed an average of 2.3 offences each. The figures suggest that just one major sex crime in 38 leads to a conviction for the offence.

While Agenda said;

...you can actually, really, rape someone... and have a ~99% chance of never even seeing the inside of a courtroom.

From a rapist's perspective, yes, Agema would be more correct. Not being reported is a huge bonus for sex offenders. Not sure if...hmm. The data is from 2013 though.

Xsjadoblayde:
From a rapist's perspective, yes, Agema would be more correct. Not being reported is a huge bonus for sex offenders. Not sure if...hmm.

So again.

1070 rapists convicted for 2.3 rapes each means 2484 rapes are punished from those 15670 reported leading to one rape punished for every 6.3 rapes reported.

If we take insted of reported rapes the estimate for total rapes (60000 -95000) its between 1 rape punished in 24.15 happening and 1 rape punished in 44.61 rapes happening which is also nowhere near 1 in a hundred.

All based on the numbers in the article.

Satinavian:

Xsjadoblayde:
From a rapist's perspective, yes, Agema would be more correct. Not being reported is a huge bonus for sex offenders. Not sure if...hmm.

So again.

1070 rapists convicted for 2.3 rapes each means 2484 rapes are punished from those 15670 reported leading to one rape punished for every 6.3 rapes reported.

If we take insted of reported rapes the estimate for total rapes (60000 -95000) its between 1 rape punished in 24.15 happening and 1 rape punished in 44.61 rapes happening which is also nowhere near 1 in a hundred.

All based on the numbers in the article.

Huh, think i somehow misinterpretated a word and number or two there as something else, have been out of sorts recently and short on sleep, sorry, my bad. Must refrain from posting like so in future.

Agema:

Really, and I'm just going to be harsh here, a lot of the complaints about dating and women come from men who are terrible at making themselves attractive to the opposite sex. Nothing per se wrong with that: it's the baseline most men start at, and learning is about making ourselves better at things. But some men seem to make their difficulties pathological and start developing all sorts of unhealthy notions about and attitudes to women and dating. This just digs the hole even deeper because it makes it harder for them to effectively relate to women.

I've legit seen this.

I used to hang out with some uni friends at a bar once per month to chat with them and the locals, and one time it basically turned into counselor's corner for this one dude at the bar who did not understand "women".

The guy's views were cartoonishly bad. And he legit did not understand why he had trouble hooking up with women, aside from one who turned out to be mentally distressed.

Between people like that and anyone who uses the word "Involuntary celibate", it really feels like there's this segment of dudes who feel entitled to sex and don't seem to understand that it's a two-way street.

Satinavian:
Not sure if you just read the sensationalist headline instead of the article or willfully twist the numbers.

Most rapes, as you should be aware, are not reported to the police.

Mostly, I don't really care about precision in this case - and you're not seeing the wood for the trees. The important issue is that rapists (statistically) are extremely likely to get away with it. If your argument is nothing more than that it's 96-98% instead of 99%, then you're arguing approximately nothing.

Agema:

Satinavian:
Not sure if you just read the sensationalist headline instead of the article or willfully twist the numbers.

Most rapes, as you should be aware, are not reported to the police.

Mostly, I don't really care about precision in this case - and you're not seeing the wood for the trees. The important issue is that rapists (statistically) are extremely likely to get away with it. If your argument is nothing more than that it's 96-98% instead of 99%, then you're arguing approximately nothing.

It is still a very big difference, if between 75% and 85% of rapist get away withit only because the victim keeps it secret. And if everyone who tells it to a police has a serious chance to get a convition out of it. I mean, one in six cases told to the police leading to a prison sentence and the main issue for those that don't is the victom telling the police about it but not being willig to testify in court.

It is as if you are telling rape victoms "Don't bother to accusse the rapist, it won't lead anywhere anyway", while exactly that kind of thing is basically the one reason why so many rapes don't get punished.

Satinavian:
It is still a very big difference...

It is as if you are telling rape victoms...

Are you familiar with the term "straw man"?

You seem to want to argue about a completely different topic from the one I'm talking about. That's okay, you can use what I say as a basis to make that new discussion. Just don't bother framing it as a disagreement with me by putting words in my mouth.

aegix drakan:

Agema:

Really, and I'm just going to be harsh here, a lot of the complaints about dating and women come from men who are terrible at making themselves attractive to the opposite sex. Nothing per se wrong with that: it's the baseline most men start at, and learning is about making ourselves better at things. But some men seem to make their difficulties pathological and start developing all sorts of unhealthy notions about and attitudes to women and dating. This just digs the hole even deeper because it makes it harder for them to effectively relate to women.

I've legit seen this.

I used to hang out with some uni friends at a bar once per month to chat with them and the locals, and one time it basically turned into counselor's corner for this one dude at the bar who did not understand "women".

The guy's views were cartoonishly bad. And he legit did not understand why he had trouble hooking up with women, aside from one who turned out to be mentally distressed.

Between people like that and anyone who uses the word "Involuntary celibate", it really feels like there's this segment of dudes who feel entitled to sex and don't seem to understand that it's a two-way street.

Not to turn this into a tangent, but how does that happen? How is there this segment of heterosexual men that seem to be so self-unaware or so convinced that women can't be "understood"? It's so baffling to me, especially as a gay man.

NemotheElvenPanda:

aegix drakan:

Agema:

Really, and I'm just going to be harsh here, a lot of the complaints about dating and women come from men who are terrible at making themselves attractive to the opposite sex. Nothing per se wrong with that: it's the baseline most men start at, and learning is about making ourselves better at things. But some men seem to make their difficulties pathological and start developing all sorts of unhealthy notions about and attitudes to women and dating. This just digs the hole even deeper because it makes it harder for them to effectively relate to women.

I've legit seen this.

I used to hang out with some uni friends at a bar once per month to chat with them and the locals, and one time it basically turned into counselor's corner for this one dude at the bar who did not understand "women".

The guy's views were cartoonishly bad. And he legit did not understand why he had trouble hooking up with women, aside from one who turned out to be mentally distressed.

Between people like that and anyone who uses the word "Involuntary celibate", it really feels like there's this segment of dudes who feel entitled to sex and don't seem to understand that it's a two-way street.

Not to turn this into a tangent, but how does that happen? How is there this segment of heterosexual men that seem to be so self-unaware or so convinced that women can't be "understood"? It's so baffling to me, especially as a gay man.

I'm quite sure there are groups of women that don't "get" men, either.

the December King:

NemotheElvenPanda:

aegix drakan:

I've legit seen this.

I used to hang out with some uni friends at a bar once per month to chat with them and the locals, and one time it basically turned into counselor's corner for this one dude at the bar who did not understand "women".

The guy's views were cartoonishly bad. And he legit did not understand why he had trouble hooking up with women, aside from one who turned out to be mentally distressed.

Between people like that and anyone who uses the word "Involuntary celibate", it really feels like there's this segment of dudes who feel entitled to sex and don't seem to understand that it's a two-way street.

Not to turn this into a tangent, but how does that happen? How is there this segment of heterosexual men that seem to be so self-unaware or so convinced that women can't be "understood"? It's so baffling to me, especially as a gay man.

I'm quite sure there are groups of women that don't "get" men, either.

Maybe, but it doesn't seem to be as politicized as something like the in the incel subculture where men seem to think there's something wrong with women as to why they can't get any action. When women say it, it's mostly as just a joke and/or to express frustration over relationships with men.

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