Interim DNC chair admits Hilldog rigged the primaries in new article.

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Seanchaidh:

The Gentleman:
Note: This is less directed at the person I'm responding to and more at an attitude I keep seeing over and over again by people who seem to believe that democracy means their candidate/policy preferences should win and that they don't need to compete or compromise to achieve progress. I've fought in the trenches of the US House to make progress and there is nothing I hate more than ignorance of the shit politicians have to do just to have the hope of getting a shred of progress.

Yes, my heart bleeds for Nancy Pelosi who became a millionaire and then multi-millionaire while in office at least in part due to making stock trades based on legislative decisions.

The Gentleman:
To quote President Obama:

Let's disband the organization of progressive activists who helped get me elected?

If you keep insisting on a public option, Mr. Kucinich, I'll sponsor a primary opponent against you?

Wow, drone strikes are great. Killing people is really fun?

It's not a bribe if I get the money when I'm out of office for an ostensibly unrelated speech?

Let's not pass the Employee Free Choice Act even though I sponsored it as a Senator?

Let's lose a thousand legislative seats because we don't represent our base well enough to get them to turn out?

Cash rules everything around me (CREAM!) get the money, dollar dollar bill y'all! ?

Hey, Citigroup, can you help me choose my cabinet?

The Gentleman:
other figures who are all talk but don't actually seem interested in getting something done, only winning the argument at the expense of actual progress.

The Democrats starting with the leadership of Bill Clinton have taken us in the wrong direction. We have regressed. Winning the argument was a necessary step for progress to become possible.

Trump made every Democrat you hate look like a Golden Saint.

Saelune:
Trump made every Democrat you hate look like a Golden Saint.

So did George W. Bush, and now they've normalized him.

In 2032, Centrist Democrats will be saying, "Kid Rock is so awful. At least Trump had ethics."

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
Trump made every Democrat you hate look like a Golden Saint.

So did George W. Bush, and now they've normalized him.

In 2032, Centrist Democrats will be saying, "Kid Rock is so awful. At least Trump had ethics."

This is the part where you're supposed to disagree with me, not hammer my point home.

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

The Gentleman:
Note: This is less directed at the person I'm responding to and more at an attitude I keep seeing over and over again by people who seem to believe that democracy means their candidate/policy preferences should win and that they don't need to compete or compromise to achieve progress. I've fought in the trenches of the US House to make progress and there is nothing I hate more than ignorance of the shit politicians have to do just to have the hope of getting a shred of progress.

Yes, my heart bleeds for Nancy Pelosi who became a millionaire and then multi-millionaire while in office at least in part due to making stock trades based on legislative decisions.

The Gentleman:
To quote President Obama:

Let's disband the organization of progressive activists who helped get me elected?

If you keep insisting on a public option, Mr. Kucinich, I'll sponsor a primary opponent against you?

Wow, drone strikes are great. Killing people is really fun?

It's not a bribe if I get the money when I'm out of office for an ostensibly unrelated speech?

Let's not pass the Employee Free Choice Act even though I sponsored it as a Senator?

Let's lose a thousand legislative seats because we don't represent our base well enough to get them to turn out?

Cash rules everything around me (CREAM!) get the money, dollar dollar bill y'all! ?

Hey, Citigroup, can you help me choose my cabinet?

The Gentleman:
other figures who are all talk but don't actually seem interested in getting something done, only winning the argument at the expense of actual progress.

The Democrats starting with the leadership of Bill Clinton have taken us in the wrong direction. We have regressed. Winning the argument was a necessary step for progress to become possible.

Trump made every Democrat you hate look like a Golden Saint.

No he didn't. He's just worse. Dogshit still stinks even if elephant shit stinks more. Basic logic. I don't see why you wouldn't at least TRY to avoid putting us in a place where those two are the only options we have left.

Dreiko:

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

Yes, my heart bleeds for Nancy Pelosi who became a millionaire and then multi-millionaire while in office at least in part due to making stock trades based on legislative decisions.

Let's disband the organization of progressive activists who helped get me elected?

If you keep insisting on a public option, Mr. Kucinich, I'll sponsor a primary opponent against you?

Wow, drone strikes are great. Killing people is really fun?

It's not a bribe if I get the money when I'm out of office for an ostensibly unrelated speech?

Let's not pass the Employee Free Choice Act even though I sponsored it as a Senator?

Let's lose a thousand legislative seats because we don't represent our base well enough to get them to turn out?

Cash rules everything around me (CREAM!) get the money, dollar dollar bill y'all! ?

Hey, Citigroup, can you help me choose my cabinet?

The Democrats starting with the leadership of Bill Clinton have taken us in the wrong direction. We have regressed. Winning the argument was a necessary step for progress to become possible.

Trump made every Democrat you hate look like a Golden Saint.

No he didn't. He's just worse. Dogshit still stinks even if elephant shit stinks more. Basic logic. I don't see why you wouldn't at least TRY to avoid putting us in a place where those two are the only options we have left.

I did try. I voted Clinton. I would have voted Bernie had it come to it, because stopping Trump was extremely important. Trump winning wont serve those who could not stand to vote Clinton but opposed Trump, because we got Trump and he has ruined the entire country and only entrenches the 'lesser of two evils' mentality. Clinton may not have been the far left push post-Obama, but she atleast would not have dragged us back 30, 40, 50, 60+ years. Now we have problems that should have been dealt with ages ago resurfacing. The homophobia of the 60's and 70's, the racism of the 50's, and not just of the 1950's either. Is it the 1800's again cause the Civil War aint over yet apparently. Except oh look who is here, the Nazis! Actual fucking Nazis teaming up with Confederates to ruin everything all because some people were privileged enough to throw everyone else under the bus cause they could not vote Clinton.

Yeah, Bernie-Bros, way to oppress the sick and poor and non-white. Maybe you can survive Trump, but not everyone is so lucky.

Zontar:
I don't see anything that implies that the conspiracy theory that the leak came from anyone other then the insider everyone who isn't a card carrying member of the inner party seems to think it is.

Is this the whistleblower theory again?

The whistleblower theory is the allegation that a DNC staffer - usually Seth Rich - released the DNC emails to expose corruption in the party, and that therefore there was no Russian hacking nor any illegal cybercrime by any actor. This theory is fundamentally baseless because the 2016 email leaks consisted of two separate security breaches that are often conflated. The first was the Democratic National Committee's email server, and that started in 2015 and continued until June 2016. The second was John Podesta's personal email server, and that happened in March 2016 and was not discovered until June.

The central crime behind both leaks was an illegal breach of a private computer server. It doesn't really matter if Russia was responsible or not; it's not illegal because Russia did it, it's illegal because the breach occurred. Russia is just the factor that turns this from 'regular Watergate' to 'super-Watergate.' If it ever turns out Seth Rich did it, then that would mean Seth Rich is guilty of a crime.

What is always glossed over in this theory is that for these leaks to be completely legal, John Podesta would have had to release his own emails to Wikileaks. There was, at minimum, an illegal breach of his personal email server. And for Seth Rich to be responsible, he would have had to personally acquire and then leak DNC emails he did not have access to through unspecified (but legal) means, and then somehow legally acquire and then leak John Podesta's personal emails without John Podesta's consent.

It goes without saying that the above scenario is basically impossible. I shouldn't have to mention the fact that Seth Rich's parents think the theory is insane, or that the sole witness in the original Fox News story is now suing the network for having fabricated quotes that were attributed to him. The theory does not need debunking because the theory is already impossible.

Zontar:
I'd also like to point out that the guilty plea is the worst case scenario for those who want to see this go anywhere. A guilty plea means no information about people who actually matter, which is why these type of low level nobodies are gone after to begin with. No leverage.

What? Have you never heard of a plea bargain?

Papadopoulos is pleading guilty because a) he was caught in a lie and b) he wants to reduce his sentence. So he's cutting a deal with Mueller in exchange for evidence implicating his direct superiors. His superiors will then cut a deal with Mueller in exchange for evidence implicating their superiors, and so on and so on until you get to someone important enough to matter. Small fish turn over on medium-sized fish to get to the big fish. This is textbook prosecution strategy when dealing with an criminal conspiracy.

All of this shit is off-topic, anyway.

Seanchaidh:
So did George W. Bush, and now they've normalized him.

God, I miss George Bush. Don't you miss George Bush?

bastardofmelbourne:

Seanchaidh:
So did George W. Bush, and now they've normalized him.

God, I miss George Bush. Don't you miss George Bush?

...

No! I don't!

bastardofmelbourne:
If it ever turns out Seth Rich did it, then that would mean Seth Rich is guilty of a crime.

For which he should be sentenced to a posthumous Congressional Medal of Honor.

Saelune:

Dreiko:

Saelune:
Trump made every Democrat you hate look like a Golden Saint.

No he didn't. He's just worse. Dogshit still stinks even if elephant shit stinks more. Basic logic. I don't see why you wouldn't at least TRY to avoid putting us in a place where those two are the only options we have left.

I did try. I voted Clinton. I would have voted Bernie had it come to it, because stopping Trump was extremely important. Trump winning wont serve those who could not stand to vote Clinton but opposed Trump, because we got Trump and he has ruined the entire country and only entrenches the 'lesser of two evils' mentality. Clinton may not have been the far left push post-Obama, but she atleast would not have dragged us back 30, 40, 50, 60+ years. Now we have problems that should have been dealt with ages ago resurfacing. The homophobia of the 60's and 70's, the racism of the 50's, and not just of the 1950's either. Is it the 1800's again cause the Civil War aint over yet apparently. Except oh look who is here, the Nazis! Actual fucking Nazis teaming up with Confederates to ruin everything all because some people were privileged enough to throw everyone else under the bus cause they could not vote Clinton.

Yeah, Bernie-Bros, way to oppress the sick and poor and non-white. Maybe you can survive Trump, but not everyone is so lucky.

You can't say you did and that now everything else you also do is somehow bequeathed that mantle. It's something you must keep doing and the moment you stop doing that, you aren't doing it any more. I also voted for Hilldog because I am a mature adult and won't let the country go up in flames because I was cheated yet I can simultaneously be appalled at her behavior and ask we all do better.

Seanchaidh:
...

No! I don't!

I miss him so much. I miss the days when the worst you could say about a US president was that he was an unscrupulous warmonger beholden to powerful corporate interests.

Now, it's like, all of that, but...he's also Donald Trump, which makes it much, much worse.

Seanchaidh:
For which he should be sentenced to a posthumous Congressional Medal of Honor.

If Hillary had won the election, I would agree with you. But the lopsided nature of the leaks meant that they're at least partly to blame for President Trump. And as far as I'm concerned, nothing excuses President Trump. He is inexcusable.

bastardofmelbourne:
I miss him so much. I miss the days when the worst you could say about a US president was that he was an unscrupulous warmonger beholden to powerful corporate interests.

Now, it's like, all of that, but...he's also Donald Trump, which makes it much, much worse.

At the risk of derailing this thread further off-topic: I just want to go on record as saying that I really miss Bill Clinton. But, fucking hell, Trump makes me miss the Bush43 days.

We really are going straight to shit, and there's not much we can do about it.

bastardofmelbourne:

Seanchaidh:
So did George W. Bush, and now they've normalized him.

God, I miss George Bush. Don't you miss George Bush?

Nope. Dude got the ball rolling on PATRIOT, ICE, the Department of Homeland Security(wholly redundant), a variety of "religious freedom and defense of marriage" bullshit, and started two wars resulting in over a million civilian casualties for very little gain.

Trump's trending to be worse, sure, but it hasn't happened quite yet. Mostly through the people we're insulting not being stupid or threatened enough to go full nuclear yet, the utter incompetence of the legislative branch (who haven't had to govern for 6 years), and the waning resilience of the judicial branch.

altnameJag:
Nope. Dude got the ball rolling on PATRIOT, ICE, the Department of Homeland Security(wholly redundant), a variety of "religious freedom and defense of marriage" bullshit, and started two wars resulting in over a million civilian casualties for very little gain.

You're taking me a little more seriously than I intended.

bastardofmelbourne:

altnameJag:
Nope. Dude got the ball rolling on PATRIOT, ICE, the Department of Homeland Security(wholly redundant), a variety of "religious freedom and defense of marriage" bullshit, and started two wars resulting in over a million civilian casualties for very little gain.

You're taking me a little more seriously than I intended.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the Bush 2 could string together sentences better than a toddler and could at least sound like he wasn't a massive racist. I appreciate competent villainy.

The Gentleman:
*snip*

There is so much wrong with this that I'm not sure I have the mental energy to rebut most of it. Imma try, but really, the more I look at it, the more I think that I'd be talking to a brick wall.

Your option was Clinton or Trump. If you didn't vote for Clinton, you were de facto voting for Trump and all the consequences of his administration.

I know you said your post isn't directed at me specifically, but still, that's not what I was talking about.

I was talking about "Yo, news just broke that the party ostensibly on the 'right side' of the issues is intensely massively corrupt and seriously tilted a Primary that's supposed to be neutral, so that the best ideas win, this needs to be addressed and stopped because otherwise people will completely lose faith in the party and apathy will become even worse and the party will continue to slide further to the right". I wasn't talking about the election.

Also, to note, I'm Canadian. In Canada. I can't vote in your elections. And if I could have? I'd have held my nose and voted for hillary, with the only thing really giving me pause being the "no-fly zone in Syria" which could have risked escalating to WW3 with russia. Aside from that one thing she was less shit then the incompetent, dementia ridden, dog-whistle to fascists man-baby she was up against.

What I was saying is to address the problems in the party BEFORE the next election, because right now, shit's not working. The democrats have PLUMMETING popularity, even against the literally most disliked president on election day of all time.

The present corporatist-friendly course is. not. sustainable.

And now we have the usual accusations of "rigging," despite the small problem of the DNC being unable to rig the process, because the DNC doesn't control the voting process for delegates, only their allotment among the state parties. Never mind that the facts don't actually bear out the basics of the claim.

Did you read the article?

It's not about literally rigging the votes. It's about the clinton campaign using the supposedly neutral DNC as a fundraising clearinghouse to basically launder donation money into her campaign, and to skew the coverage and debates and things to be in favor of the clinton campaign.

If you donated money in hopes that they'd do a fair primary to get the best candidate, you got ripped off. If you donated money hoping that it would go to democrats facing tough opponents, you got ripped off. They may not have rigged the vote, but they subverted democracy and put their thumb on the scale.

Politics is messy and ugly at the best of times, but the alternatives (violence, real revolutions, and civil wars) are bloody and often simply lead to the very tyrants and dictators that liberals and progressives fight against. You cannot abandon democratic norms to save democracy or cross your fingers that you'll be able to fix the damage when its all done, just as you cannot abandon the one real party that has a chance at actually fixing the system and instead vote for parties and politicians that can only give you a boost to your ego at the expense of everything else.

Ok, first of all, there WAS that harvard study that showed that the will of the people has little impact on what laws are passed, but donor opinion has a huge impact. IE, the US is an oligarchy at this point, not a democracy.

Second, we just now found out that the democratic party subverted democracy with this scandal, to say nothing of when progressives in California showed up to vote for a progressive candidate in the state democratic party, and won with a majority of the votes...Only to then LOSE despite having a majority because there were superdelegates at the state level who said "I know the majority wants a progressive state party, but we disagree". And when people complained, they were told, quote "Shut the fuck up and go home". Democratic norms are already being abandoned by established politicians. To say nothing of the purge that just happened at the DNC of anyone who supported bernie or keith ellison.

Third...You worry about violent revolution? Then you'd better hope that the parties start cleaning house, because it's already starting. It's why they elected a con man as president. People were so sick and tired of their needs not being represented that they elected the most wild-card of wild-cards as president to throw a molotov cocktail into the established order. Who then turned out to be just as much of a sellout, only that he IS as unstable as he seemed and now the US is playing chicken with a nuclear power hostage situation in addition to not meeting the needs of the people.

Given that the peaceful means of inciting change seems to be failing, and faith in the system is failing, and faith in rabid demagogues like Roy Moore is rising, you're going to see more molotov candidates happen, more people screaming for a third party and thus splitting the vote, more assholes feeling emboldened to be proud white supremacist racists, and more. Where, if the trend continues you'll either end up with perpetual far-right governments because the populist left is suppressed by corporatists, or the situation will get bad enough that crime will start to spike more and more until things collapse. When enough people are starving to death despite their best efforts to work, and they realize "Hey there are more of us than there are of them, and we have guns"...Well, that's kinda what led to the french revolution. I'd rather avoid that, thanks.

Too often I read and hear people complain about politicians who do nothing (or worse), but then immediately turn around and support Sanders or other figures who are all talk but don't actually seem interested in getting something done, only winning the argument at the expense of actual progress. They look for some kind of superman to "save them" when the only real means of doing so is being realistic and patient with politics, and trying to understand that your political options are almost certainly a minority no matter where you are on the political spectrum

I wish I had the poll on me, but recently we're seeing that things like Healthcare for all, better access to education, an end to the drug war for pot, and end to the unnecessary foreign wars, better wages, etc are things where the american people majority agree on. The extent to which they agree varies, but they all want those areas to improve.

Also, even though Sanders has a pretty good record, again, my post was not about "Bernie or Bust!!!11". It was about "Dude, the democrats are highly corrupt, you need to deal with that if you want anyone to have faith in them again."

You have to persuade and compromise to make real progress (see: Obamacare) and then be ready to revisit it when you can later. Because that is how democracy works. If you're not interested in that, you aren't really interested in democracy, just another form of dictatorship.

Woooow, such a great compromise.

Dude, Obamacare was a right wing health-care plan that the heritage foundation came up with, that mitt romney put into place in his home state. And guess what, the GOP STILL fought it tooth and nail, screamed about "it will kill your grandma because death panels!" and voted to repeal it about 50-odd times, and it only passed because Obama pretty much ramemd it through on his own.

And the only reason it wasn't outright scrapped by the GOP like promised is because it was good enough for people that killing it was no longer popular, hence why they danced around the repeal thing for several months until Trump just executively gutted the funding in a way that will make the premiums shoot up and cause it to fail a lot faster so they can later go "See, it failed!".

Yes, so compromise. With a GOP that has no interest in compromise. That broke the filibuster record on virtually everything that the Democrats proposed while they held the white house. You're telling the "left" that they must compromise or they're being fascist dictators, while the GOP can refuse to compromise at all and gets a free pass.

And guess what, that's what's happening. We're a month out from the worst shooting in US history, and the talk went from "We should probably ban bump stocks because they allow you to basically turn a semi-auto gun into a full-auto gun, and those are illegal for good reason" to "Well, maybe if we just do an extra background check and a 200 dollar extra fee?" which will probably not even happen. The Democrats always compromise and the GOP never does, leading to the screwy state of politics now.

an attitude I keep seeing over and over again by people who seem to believe that democracy means their candidate/policy preferences should win and that they don't need to compete or compromise to achieve progress. I've fought in the trenches of the US House to make progress and there is nothing I hate more than ignorance of the shit politicians have to do just to have the hope of getting a shred of progress.

Again, speaking as a Canadian, while I was frustrated as hell with our conservative government, I never saw it as undemocratic. It was corrupt and messed up, sure, but at least it felt somewhat fair. Even though I think our current liberal government is more or less the status quo with a few small improvements here and there, I still think it's democratic.

I'm cool with compromise and negotiating. I understand that the will of the majority (or my personal opinion) doesn't need to always be taken into account as sometimes those in government have a better understanding of things.

But your system in the US right now is run by big donors who have great control over both parties, one of whom refuses to negotiate under any circumstance. Progress is impossible unless something changes. Unless the nominally "left" party start to fight back and give their voters the sense that they have some degree of power to change things. Unless the cancer that is money in politics is cut out.

And finally...About "competing" to achieve progress...Remind me what the article said the DNC did again? Oh right, they basically surrendered control to the clinton campain so she could use it as a fundraising machine for her and tip the scales of the primary in her favor. Remind me again who basically just purged the DNC of anyone who supported bernie or keith ellison?

Remind me again who is afraid of competing in a battle of ideas? Because at this point, it's beginning to look like the Democrats would rather subvert the will of the people and lose to a right-wing demagogue than let a populist/progressive even take a shot at winning.

Saelune:
I refuse to hold anyone to higher standards than we hold the President.

That is such a cowardly stance to take seeing how high and mighty you were against everyone who didn't vote for her during the election.
We Bernie people were shouting to the skies she cheated, her poll numbers are fake, she doesn't have the support the DNC pretends she does, and all we got was 'shut up and vote for her, sexist!'

And now you're saying you refuse to hold her to a higher standard than Trump?! Trump wasn't president when she cheated! Trump wasn't president when the DNC literally sold out! Trump wasn't president when we were screaming to the skies she had no chance of winning!

Silentpony:

Saelune:
I refuse to hold anyone to higher standards than we hold the President.

That is such a cowardly stance to take seeing how high and mighty you were against everyone who didn't vote for her during the election.
We Bernie people were shouting to the skies she cheated, her poll numbers are fake, she doesn't have the support the DNC pretends she does, and all we got was 'shut up and vote for her, sexist!'

And now you're saying you refuse to hold her to a higher standard than Trump?! Trump wasn't president when she cheated! Trump wasn't president when the DNC literally sold out! Trump wasn't president when we were screaming to the skies she had no chance of winning!

Cowardly? More like Hillary is not President and ruining the country and that everyone is still harping on her instead of caring about the LITERAL THREAT TO OUR COUNTRY.

The cowards are those unwilling to face the real threat.

I refuse to hold the non-President to higher standards than the fucking President.

Its like criticizing a childless person cause you think they would be a bad parent while ignoring the dad drowning their kids behind you.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
I refuse to hold anyone to higher standards than we hold the President.

That is such a cowardly stance to take seeing how high and mighty you were against everyone who didn't vote for her during the election.
We Bernie people were shouting to the skies she cheated, her poll numbers are fake, she doesn't have the support the DNC pretends she does, and all we got was 'shut up and vote for her, sexist!'

And now you're saying you refuse to hold her to a higher standard than Trump?! Trump wasn't president when she cheated! Trump wasn't president when the DNC literally sold out! Trump wasn't president when we were screaming to the skies she had no chance of winning!

Cowardly? More like Hillary is not President and ruining the country and that everyone is still harping on her instead of caring about the LITERAL THREAT TO OUR COUNTRY.

The cowards are those unwilling to face the real threat.

I refuse to hold the non-President to higher standards than the fucking President.

Its like criticizing a childless person cause you think they would be a bad parent while ignoring the dad drowning their kids behind you.

That LITERAL THREAT TO OUR COUNTRY wouldn't exist if people didn't fall into party line and vote for the LITERAL lying, cheating, anti-democratic, corrupt candidate.

Trump is a real threat, yes. But he wasn't the current threat during the Primaries, Hilary was. Hilary was the Borg, slowly taking over Starfleet one ship at a time. Trump is the Klingons waiting on the edge of the Neutral Zone for when the Borg fully takes over so they can sweep in and win.
We Bernie people were the last survivors of the Enterprise trying desperately to stop the Borg, 'cause guess what? Klingons can easily beat the Borg.
And Hilary supporters are just Locutus of Borg, resistance is futile.

And then the Borg lost.

Maybe if you held some people to a good standard then this whole mess wouldn't have happened. The sooner we get people who supported Hilary out of the Democratic party, the better.

Silentpony:

Saelune:

Silentpony:

That is such a cowardly stance to take seeing how high and mighty you were against everyone who didn't vote for her during the election.
We Bernie people were shouting to the skies she cheated, her poll numbers are fake, she doesn't have the support the DNC pretends she does, and all we got was 'shut up and vote for her, sexist!'

And now you're saying you refuse to hold her to a higher standard than Trump?! Trump wasn't president when she cheated! Trump wasn't president when the DNC literally sold out! Trump wasn't president when we were screaming to the skies she had no chance of winning!

Cowardly? More like Hillary is not President and ruining the country and that everyone is still harping on her instead of caring about the LITERAL THREAT TO OUR COUNTRY.

The cowards are those unwilling to face the real threat.

I refuse to hold the non-President to higher standards than the fucking President.

Its like criticizing a childless person cause you think they would be a bad parent while ignoring the dad drowning their kids behind you.

That LITERAL THREAT TO OUR COUNTRY wouldn't exist if people didn't fall into party line and vote for the LITERAL lying, cheating, anti-democratic, corrupt candidate.

Trump is a real threat, yes. But he wasn't the current threat during the Primaries, Hilary was. Hilary was the Borg, slowly taking over Starfleet one ship at a time. Trump is the Klingons waiting on the edge of the Neutral Zone for when the Borg fully takes over so they can sweep in and win.
We Bernie people were the last survivors of the Enterprise trying desperately to stop the Borg, 'cause guess what? Klingons can easily beat the Borg.
And Hilary supporters are just Locutus of Borg, resistance is futile.

And then the Borg lost.

Maybe if you held some people to a good standard then this whole mess wouldn't have happened. The sooner we get people who supported Hilary out of the Democratic party, the better.

Well, Republicans voted for their line and won... The side that splintered was the one that isnt in power. You can say whatever you want to say, but the tangible evidence is uh, Trump.

Also people who supported Hilary? So kick out Bernie then?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/11/politics/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders/index.html

Saelune:
SNIP

If need be, yes. Bernie had his shot and he blew it. He was up against the worst candidate in US history, knew she was cheating, and kept his mouth shut about it.
He didn't try hard enough. He should have been suing the DNC, bringing Hilary to court, showing she cheated, showing she corrupted the system, bringing the entire thing to light.

That's what you do when you really want to win. If Trump is the nightmare threat you claim he is, then there should be no tactic you're unwilling to do to stop him. Bernie had a chance of beating Trump. Hilary never did.
She cheated, she lost, she and all her followers gotta' go. And if Bernie drank the Kool Aid, sorry Bernie, you gotta go too.

Like he always said its about principles, not people.

Silentpony:

Saelune:
SNIP

If need be, yes. Bernie had his shot and he blew it. He was up against the worst candidate in US history, knew she was cheating, and kept his mouth shut about it.
He didn't try hard enough. He should have been suing the DNC, bringing Hilary to court, showing she cheated, showing she corrupted the system, bringing the entire thing to light.

That's what you do when you really want to win. If Trump is the nightmare threat you claim he is, then there should be no tactic you're unwilling to do to stop him. Bernie had a chance of beating Trump. Hilary never did.
She cheated, she lost, she and all her followers gotta' go. And if Bernie drank the Kool Aid, sorry Bernie, you gotta go too.

Like he always said its about principles, not people.

Tells me to be morally above it all, then tells me to do ANYTHING to win...

What?

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
SNIP

If need be, yes. Bernie had his shot and he blew it. He was up against the worst candidate in US history, knew she was cheating, and kept his mouth shut about it.
He didn't try hard enough. He should have been suing the DNC, bringing Hilary to court, showing she cheated, showing she corrupted the system, bringing the entire thing to light.

That's what you do when you really want to win. If Trump is the nightmare threat you claim he is, then there should be no tactic you're unwilling to do to stop him. Bernie had a chance of beating Trump. Hilary never did.
She cheated, she lost, she and all her followers gotta' go. And if Bernie drank the Kool Aid, sorry Bernie, you gotta go too.

Like he always said its about principles, not people.

Tells me to be morally above it all, then tells me to do ANYTHING to win...

What?

Your 'morally above it' was you don't take anyone seriously if they didn't vote for Hilary, because Trump is a bad man. Turns out Hilary cheated and never stood a chance in Hell of winning, and the people who wanted Bernie knew that, told you that, and you still refused to take that seriously.

So you sacrificed your moral integrity for a liar, and got nothing in return. Well I shouldn't say that, you got Trump in return.

Silentpony:

Saelune:

Silentpony:

If need be, yes. Bernie had his shot and he blew it. He was up against the worst candidate in US history, knew she was cheating, and kept his mouth shut about it.
He didn't try hard enough. He should have been suing the DNC, bringing Hilary to court, showing she cheated, showing she corrupted the system, bringing the entire thing to light.

That's what you do when you really want to win. If Trump is the nightmare threat you claim he is, then there should be no tactic you're unwilling to do to stop him. Bernie had a chance of beating Trump. Hilary never did.
She cheated, she lost, she and all her followers gotta' go. And if Bernie drank the Kool Aid, sorry Bernie, you gotta go too.

Like he always said its about principles, not people.

Tells me to be morally above it all, then tells me to do ANYTHING to win...

What?

Your 'morally above it' was you don't take anyone seriously if they didn't vote for Hilary, because Trump is a bad man. Turns out Hilary cheated and never stood a chance in Hell of winning, and the people who wanted Bernie knew that, told you that, and you still refused to take that seriously.

So you sacrificed your moral integrity for a liar, and got nothing in return. Well I shouldn't say that, you got Trump in return.

Every person who suffers and dies due to Trump validates me. Including a woman literally murdered by Nazis.

And I didnt get Trump. We got Trump. You and me. Republicans and Democrats. Everyone is suffering which is what makes this such a pain, because people are suffering and still refuse to do anything of value about it. Bernie bros bitching about Hilary. Republicans bitching about Hilary. Trump bitching about Hilary.

You want to prove you're better than me here? Then fucking stop bitching about Hilary and help us fight Trump.

Saelune:
SNIP

Everyone who suffers is at yours, and everyone who voted for Hilary's feet. And your response is 'Hey don't blame me, I took the moral stand of voting for the woman who cheated and had no chance of winning. My conscience is clear'

And you're not the one fighting Trump, we are. You were the ones holding the door open for him, asking for him to come in, make yourself at home, we won't stop you, yes help yourself to my freedoms.

The sooner we get Hilary and her ilk out of the party, the sooner there's a chance of taking seats back next year, and winning in 2020. That's how you fight Trump. Muller will do things in his own time. The Democrats have a lot of cleaning house to do

Silentpony:

Saelune:
SNIP

Everyone who suffers is at yours, and everyone who voted for Hilary's feet. And your response is 'Hey don't blame me, I took the moral stand of voting for the woman who cheated and had no chance of winning. My conscience is clear'

And you're not the one fighting Trump, we are. You were the ones holding the door open for him, asking for him to come in, make yourself at home, we won't stop you, yes help yourself to my freedoms.

The sooner we get Hilary and her ilk out of the party, the sooner there's a chance of taking seats back next year, and winning in 2020. That's how you fight Trump. Muller will do things in his own time. The Democrats have a lot of cleaning house to do

Tell that to the 65,853,516 people who voted Hilary. Nearly 3 million more than Trump got.

You got nothing. All the objective facts prove you wrong. Trump's presidency proves you wrong, the popular votes prove you wrong, the margins Hilary lost certain states prove you wrong.

Saying you're fighting Trump is like saying 'both sides are equally wrong' when one of those sides is literally Nazis.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
SNIP

Everyone who suffers is at yours, and everyone who voted for Hilary's feet. And your response is 'Hey don't blame me, I took the moral stand of voting for the woman who cheated and had no chance of winning. My conscience is clear'

And you're not the one fighting Trump, we are. You were the ones holding the door open for him, asking for him to come in, make yourself at home, we won't stop you, yes help yourself to my freedoms.

The sooner we get Hilary and her ilk out of the party, the sooner there's a chance of taking seats back next year, and winning in 2020. That's how you fight Trump. Muller will do things in his own time. The Democrats have a lot of cleaning house to do

Tell that to the 65,853,516 people who voted Hilary. Nearly 3 million more than Trump got.

You got nothing. All the objective facts prove you wrong. Trump's presidency proves you wrong, the popular votes prove you wrong, the margins Hilary lost certain states prove you wrong.

Saying you're fighting Trump is like saying 'both sides are equally wrong' when one of those sides is literally Nazis.

If the other side is the Soviets, then yeah. Stalin wasn't exactly a cuddly little flower. And if you were a ethnic minority back then, both sides killed you. Unless you're saying a German bullet is more insulting than a Russian bullet, in which case I won't argue, that's a personal preference.
And American/British side was the side you wanted to help, not the parties where the ruler took control through corruption, bribes, blackmail and edging other candidates out.

Silentpony:

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Everyone who suffers is at yours, and everyone who voted for Hilary's feet. And your response is 'Hey don't blame me, I took the moral stand of voting for the woman who cheated and had no chance of winning. My conscience is clear'

And you're not the one fighting Trump, we are. You were the ones holding the door open for him, asking for him to come in, make yourself at home, we won't stop you, yes help yourself to my freedoms.

The sooner we get Hilary and her ilk out of the party, the sooner there's a chance of taking seats back next year, and winning in 2020. That's how you fight Trump. Muller will do things in his own time. The Democrats have a lot of cleaning house to do

Tell that to the 65,853,516 people who voted Hilary. Nearly 3 million more than Trump got.

You got nothing. All the objective facts prove you wrong. Trump's presidency proves you wrong, the popular votes prove you wrong, the margins Hilary lost certain states prove you wrong.

Saying you're fighting Trump is like saying 'both sides are equally wrong' when one of those sides is literally Nazis.

If the other side is the Soviets, then yeah. Stalin wasn't exactly a cuddly little flower. And if you were a ethnic minority back then, both sides killed you. Unless you're saying a German bullet is more insulting than a Russian bullet, in which case I won't argue, that's a personal preference.
And American/British side was the side you wanted to help, not the parties where the ruler took control through corruption, bribes, blackmail and edging other candidates out.

Remember when the US ignored Hitler to war with Russia?

Saelune:
Remember when the US ignored Hitler to war with Russia?

Remember when the US started two illegal wars in the Middle East?
Remember the US and UK selling arms to Saudi Arabia to be used in a genocidal war that is happening right now?
Remember the Patriot Act and PRISM?
Remember the protraction of the Drug War, the Privatisation of the prison system and mass incarceration in the 1990's that continues to this day?

Saelune:
Remember when the US ignored Hitler to war with Russia?

Remember when the Russians were nice, and treated people fairly, democratically and justly?

Also Truman said on the Senate floor that we should support whichever side was losing, so the war between the two drags out longer and both sides kill one another.

You know it's funny how people keep trying to blame Russia and Trump for the DNC leak when none of this would have been an issue had the DNC not been racist against Latinos, rigged the system for Hillary, and all the other crap they pulled that was revealed in the leak.

I don't really see any argument for how this harmed democracy, hell I don't even think this tipped the balance anyway.

Silentpony:

Saelune:
Remember when the US ignored Hitler to war with Russia?

Remember when the Russians were nice, and treated people fairly, democratically and justly?

Also Truman said on the Senate floor that we should support whichever side was losing, so the war between the two drags out longer and both sides kill one another.

Fuck Truman. He might be one of the few presidents worse than Trump if only for his unfair civilian killcount. (He authorized the nuking of Japan which I find to be one of the most horrific acts of all human history)

Russia was never really good. Honestly, not sure which way you are going with that one. But Russia was a lesser evil to Nazi Germany. Now post WWII, sure, the US should probably have tried to stop Stalin too, but Hitler needed to go first.

Hilary was no Obama, but she was also no Trump. Your goal should have been to field a better candidate post-Hilary. Once Trump and Republicans were out of the way, sure, lets fix up the Democrats, but nope. Now as bastard is pointing out, even Bush Jr. seems preferable and that is scary. You think Trump is going to push Democrats further left? If anything you just pushed everyone further right.

Saelune:
Well, Republicans voted for their line and won... The side that splintered was the one that isnt in power. You can say whatever you want to say, but the tangible evidence is uh, Trump.

Maybe you should ask WHY they splintered.

Maybe you should ask why the Rust Belt that voted SOLIDLY for Obama twice flipped for trump.

Is it because they suddenly all became neo-nazis and virulant racists? Or maybe it's because it's full of failed factory towns with no jobs because of trade deals, and one guy was like "Ahma brug ur jobs back belibe me!!" and the other said "everything is perfectly fine!" and they went "Well, one guy is at least pretending he's going to bring our jobs back...Yeah, he's an asshole but he can't REALLY do those racist things, right?". And then Hillary didn't even bother to go campaign in those states to even try to win them over.

They may have voted for the con-man in chief, but that doesn't mean they are unreachable. An entire room of trump voters gave sanders a standing ovation when he said "I want to give people a living wage and healthcare". Those are people who can be won over. They're people who HAVE to be won over to stop trump getting a second term.

Yes, there's a good half or so of trump voters who voted for him because of his horrendous policies and discrimination. But the other half are not your enemy. They're people that need to be won over if you want to stop him.

And here's the thing, yeah, I agree that Trump needs to be fought tooth and nail. But that's also why I'm critical of your Democrats. Because they are ENABLING HIM. There are people in the Democrat party who are voting in favor of his stuff and his people. There are people there who normalize war criminals like Bush Jr in comparison to him. There are people there that continue to shut out the voices of the people who area shouting "WE ARE NOT DOING OK, HELP US", and pushing them away, driving them to either not vote because "Well, why bother voting when no one is going to help us", or vote third party because "We need a new party who will actually help us", or even worse, driving them towards trump.

You speak like you can only fight trump OR the establishment democrats. Well no. you can fight both. In fact, you have to fight both.

Because one side is welcoming neo-nazis, and the other is enabling them.

Your drowning analogy is wrong, BTW. It's more like someone is drowning their kid, and the only two people who can stop him are a) A guy going "Drown him faster yeaaaah!" and b) someone going "I'm not going to wade in there and save him! Why don't we just talk about it and see what happens!". In which case, neither of them is doing shit to save the drowning kid. Some of them are obviously worse people that others, but none of them are helping.

Then again, I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears. And I understand why. You're in one of the groups currently being shat on by the con-man in chief. You do what you think needs to be done to protect yourself. But unless the guys who are enabling the trump administration and sticking to finger-wagging as their main form of retaliation are replaced with people who will actually fight him, nothing will change and he'll stand a really good chance of getting a second term which I think we can both agree would be catastrophic.

aegix drakan:

Then again, I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears. And I understand why. You're in one of the groups currently being shat on by the con-man in chief. You do what you think needs to be done to protect yourself.

At this point I don't think that's a good enough excuse, especially given Bernie and the like have decidedly better track records regarding civil rights.

Ninjamedic:

aegix drakan:

Then again, I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears. And I understand why. You're in one of the groups currently being shat on by the con-man in chief. You do what you think needs to be done to protect yourself.

At this point I don't think that's a good enough excuse, especially given Bernie and the like have decidedly better track records regarding civil rights.

Here's the thing though. I can see when someone feels backed into a corner and is in full-blown self-defense mode. At that point, typically the best thing to do is just not try to get in their way or convince them that they need to fight more than just the enemy they feel is threatening their life.

Taking a moment to stop and consider the perspective of other people helps a lot. It lets you know when someone is too far into-self-defense mode. It lets you understand who you can win over and how, and it lets you know when the person you're talking to is either just looking for attention, or is so entrenched in their "idyllic" conservative small town culture (where employers are so benevolent that no unions are ever ever needed, and were there are apparently no trans people they can talk to and realize they're just like any other human being and are NOT "freaks" or anything, and where there probably aren't a whole lot of muslims to convince them that they're not some savage barbaric desert vampires) that they are literally unreachable.

If someone's in self-defense mode, if they don't respond for the first few times, best to let them do what they feel needs to be done, even if it's not optimal at all, because you'll never convince them that anything other that their primary enemy needs fighting. You won't convince them not to just fight the tank bearing down on them, but also to worry about the sniper that's aiming at their back. You let them fight the tank and you go focus on the sniper.

If someone can be won over, try to find out how, and you can maybe make them see that they're actually more on your side and have them join you.

And if someone's just looking for attention or is so insulated in their little bubble that nothing will ever reach them, best to just ignore them entirely.

aegix drakan:

Here's the thing though. I can see when someone feels backed into a corner and is in full-blown self-defense mode.

They[1]'re willing to throw whoever they need to under the bus to save themselves. The more I see the continued deification for Hilary and the corporate Democrats the more I have to question what they're willing to let slip by until they'll actually make a stand.

Charlottesville may have given me my answer.

[1] Hilary supporters I mean here, not any specific demographic.

aegix drakan:

Maybe you should ask WHY they splintered.

Maybe you should ask why the Rust Belt that voted SOLIDLY for Obama twice flipped for trump.

Is it because they suddenly all became neo-nazis and virulant racists? Or maybe it's because it's full of failed factory towns with no jobs because of trade deals, and one guy was like "Ahma brug ur jobs back belibe me!!" and the other said "everything is perfectly fine!" and they went "Well, one guy is at least pretending he's going to bring our jobs back...Yeah, he's an asshole but he can't REALLY do those racist things, right?". And then Hillary didn't even bother to go campaign in those states to even try to win them over.

In truth, Hillary Clinton's platform actually did include promises for wider investment and job growth. She didn't campaign on it enough, sure, but she put more detail into the proposals than Trump ever did.

She just wasn't as bombastic about it, that's all. And because she wasn't as loud, people don't remember, and then come up with this idea that she said everything was fine as it was, which she never did.

The Clinton campaign was shite, but people are just mis-characterising it in some respects, and the "ignoring the jobs issue, while Trump didn't" notion is one such mis-characterisation.

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