Will executive orders cease to be put into effect?

I might be misunderstanding something but it seems that every one of Trump's executive orders are being held back at court.

So my question is, wouldn't that just create a norm that for every president from now on will have his executive orders stopped at court by judges of the opposite side for some reason, real or bogus?

Yes, because presidents should be king and pass whatever they want regardless as to constitutionality or basic humanism.

Of course ...if it inevitably leads to this, I don't mind...

I mean executive orders are fucking weird anyway. Why give one person so much power? But at the same time if they're there surely there should be checks and balances to make sure they're not unconstitutional? Right? Checks and balances? Those things we want no matter who's team is in charge?

inu-kun:
I might be misunderstanding something but it seems that every one of Trump's executive orders are being held back at court.

So my question is, wouldn't that just create a norm that for every president from now on will have his executive orders stopped at court by judges of the opposite side for some reason, real or bogus?

What's actually happening now is pushback against a norm that was mostly created by President Obama, who issued executive orders of unusual scope in order to circumvent a recalcitrant Congress. Because the GOP refused to entertain anything Obama put forward, he had to find creative legal arguments to pursue policy goals like the DREAM act. And because the GOP engendered little sympathy with its policy of strategic obstruction, everyone shrugged and let Obama get away with it, just like they did with his expansion of the surveillance state and the perpetual war machine that Bush built.

The consequence of that was that Trump inherited the presidency at the most powerful it has ever been, historically speaking. But in an ironic twist, Trump's immaturity and unreliability is reducing the power and influence of the presidency back to its appropriate levels. People simply don't respect him. Without that respect, the prestige of the presidency is severely curtailed; without that prestige, the president's words simply carry no weight. Everyone's kind of realised that the guy is fundamentally a bullshit artist interested more in self-aggrandisement than in anything practical. And with that realisation, the glass throne of the presidency begins to crack.

So his orders get blocked in the courts. It helps that they have so far been sloppily-drafted pieces of shit, but mostly it's the pugnaciousness of the man that causes problems; people don't feel inclined to work with him when he constantly talks shit about them.

You're saying you're worried that this might set a precedent where the president's authority is continually undermined by Congress and the courts. Don't be. Those two institutions are supposed to rein in the presidency when it overreaches, and it's been overreaching for a few administrations now. Remember when Reagan wanted to fund the Contras but couldn't get the money from Congress to do it?

The problem is that most of Trump's executive orders violate the rights of somebody.

Fix that problem and the courts wouldn't be blocking them.

He's passed a good few already. It's mostly his "big campaign promise" ones that keep getting blocked by courts, like the Mooslum Ba-Oh sorry, "travel ban".

Because most of those violate the constitution, or are discriminatory enough that they violate the constitution.

bastardofmelbourne:

What's actually happening now is pushback against a norm that was mostly created by President Obama, who issued executive orders of unusual scope in order to circumvent a recalcitrant Congress. Because the GOP refused to entertain anything Obama put forward, he had to find creative legal arguments to pursue policy goals like the DREAM act. And because the GOP engendered little sympathy with its policy of strategic obstruction, everyone shrugged and let Obama get away with it, just like they did with his expansion of the surveillance state and the perpetual war machine that Bush built.

Also, this.

bastardofmelbourne:

You're saying you're worried that this might set a precedent where the president's authority is continually undermined by Congress and the courts. Don't be. Those two institutions are supposed to rein in the presidency when it overreaches, and it's been overreaching for a few administrations now. Remember when Reagan wanted to fund the Contras but couldn't get the money from Congress to do it?

Not really worried, more like expectant that when a democratic president pops up everything he tries to put into action through executive orders get blocked and then people will start bitching about it.

altnameJag:
The problem is that most of Trump's executive orders violate the rights of somebody.

Fix that problem and the courts wouldn't be blocking them.

The thing is that you can interpret pretty much everything as "violating the rights of someone".

inu-kun:

The thing is that you can interpret pretty much everything as "violating the rights of someone".

I mean you can but some interpretations are stupider than others. You can interpret " Waiting For Godot" to be about religion, but you'd be wrong.

inu-kun:

Not really worried, more like expectant that when a democratic president pops up everything he tries to put into action through executive orders get blocked and then people will start bitching about it.

Of course they will. Partisans gonna partisan.

I'm gonna go with "I sincerely hope so." as my answer to this. Seriously, someone put Trump to bed until we can get him out and undo al lthe crap he did.

CheetoDust:

inu-kun:

The thing is that you can interpret pretty much everything as "violating the rights of someone".

I mean you can but some interpretations are stupider than others. You can interpret " Waiting For Godot" to be about religion, but you'd be wrong.

What is it about then? I always thought it was about how religion was a waste of time because God's existence cant be proven. Followers cant make personal progress because they are looking for answers from an entity they have never seen. Haven't read it since high school, I thought it was really pretentious.

bastardofmelbourne:

inu-kun:

Not really worried, more like expectant that when a democratic president pops up everything he tries to put into action through executive orders get blocked and then people will start bitching about it.

Of course they will. Partisans gonna partisan.

They already did when it was Obama, the courts blocked some of his EO's too and partisans raged at conservative courts, the Supreme Court justices, especially Scalia, and so on in that fashion.

I would argue the major reason Obama was more successful than Trump is that Obama was a constitutional scholar that knew how to craft or at least hire people that could craft EO's with some court precedent behind them, and when he couldn't accomplish it through EO's he knew how to make his intentions clear through his secretaries and "letters to my colleagues" style announcements to the various departments. I know people that work for the department of education and the difference they describe is like night and day, when Obama wanted something you got a plan that was handed down through admin right around the time of announcement that detailed how they were supposed to try and accomplish goals while the public talking points were posted for the public to clearly see. Under Trump you getTwitter announcements of things that maybe might effect department policy and then total silence from admin as they wait months or more for the secretary and White House to tell them what they actually want done and it's a crap shoot if they detail any of this for the public to analyze.

Also, his base loves his social media posts but as a government official it only harms his policy plans by giving his judicial opponents tons of avenues to tie him up in court.

The military transgender ban is a prime example of this. The executive branch had a similar fight over women in the military and presented a case backed by evidence and presented with the backing of the military, with Trump we got a Twitter announcement with no backing research, policy only detailed months later, and actually contradicted by research at some points, rather than building research and support to get their policy through they half assed it and these are the consequences. Half the shit being blocked would likely have made it through with little serious challenge if it just wasn't so rushed and half assed when it was rolled out, and when even the federal government is telling you your shit looks lazy you know you've got problems.

It remains to be seen how much of ObAma's shenanigans were an actual expansion of power or were just Obama being good at navigating the courts, if nothing else someone with the power lust and tendencies towards idolizing centralized power of Trump, combined with the legal savvy and ability to get the courts on his side of Obama would be a scary combination.

As someone who is not an expert on american politics can someone just clarify exactly what executive orders are compared to the regular process?

The task of the courts is to evaluate whether an executive order is legal and constitutional. They are the final balancing power which are meant to ensure that even a president with supermajorities in congress and house cannot act in an unconstitutional fashion.

spartandude:
As someone who is not an expert on american politics can someone just clarify exactly what executive orders are compared to the regular process?

Short answer: The regular process is a bill being drafted in the House or Senate then passed by both chambers. The bill then goes to the President who signs it into law.

Executive orders are drafted by the executive branch and signed by the President as 'law.' They are supposedly meant to be limited in scope and taken as clarifying declarations of policy within a law passed by Congress. However, for a number of presidencies the scope of these orders has been steadily creeping wider and the number of them created has increased.

spartandude:
As someone who is not an expert on american politics can someone just clarify exactly what executive orders are compared to the regular process?

Executive orders are, basically, directives passed on to federal agencies on things their boss wants them to do.

They don't make new laws per se, but they can have drastic effects on policy.

For example, "hey FBI and Justice Department, don't press your jurisdiction into states that have legalized marijuana in their own borders". It didn't make weed legal federally, but the relevant organizations have been directed to ignore it so long as it doesn't cross state lines.

As others have said, this is at least partly a correction for the executive overstepping its bounds. However, the primary impetus has not been this, but rather an extremely partisan push to be contrarian. This likely means that it's going to become fairly common tactic in the future unless there is some kind of blow back onto the judges letting this stuff pass which unfortunately I don't see happening unless something rather ugly happens because of a decision directly.

I mean, this kind of glosses over the possibility that maybe this administration is more shit at making ones that follow the law and thus are more easily challenged in court.

Local Man concerned that Foreign Government half a world away might not have powerful enough Executive Branch

... and now you may return to your regularly scheduled programming.

Seanchaidh:
Local Man concerned that Foreign Government half a world away might not have powerful enough Executive Branch

... and now you may return to your regularly scheduled programming.

Really, of all the issues might have with Inu's various topics and arguments, this is too simple and straightforward to just shrug off. The idiot in office CAN affect the world at large. Discussion value positive. Please move on.

 

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