Why I've Started to Fear My Fellow Social Justice Activists

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As you can probably guess, I have Facebook friends from all across the political spectrum. Most of the time, what they post is really predictable. This morning, I got one political post from an unexpected source. My friend is a Liberal activist. A real activist that gets his hands dirty helping people. Unlike most "activists" who believe that they are changing the world by harassing people online and virtue signaling. He posted this link http://www.yesmagazine.org/people-power/why-ive-started-to-fear-my-fellow-social-justice-activists-20171013

In another thread, we reached the conclusion that the most toxic subforum on The Escapist is the R&P. I think this article provides insight why it has become that way.

KissingSunlight:
As you can probably guess, I have Facebook friends from all across the political spectrum. Most of the time, what they post is really predictable. This morning, I got one political post from an unexpected source. My friend is a Liberal activist. A real activist that gets his hands dirty helping people. Unlike most "activists" who believe that they are changing the world by harassing people online and virtue signaling. He posted this link http://www.yesmagazine.org/people-power/why-ive-started-to-fear-my-fellow-social-justice-activists-20171013

In another thread, we reached the conclusion that the most toxic subforum on The Escapist is the R&P. I think this article provides insight why it has become that way.

So, some left wing attitudes to power dynamics are short sighted and emotionally needy? Firstly, as someone firmly on the left: No Duh. The amount of discussions that I have had with die-hard anarchists (For example, but not exclusively. I disagree with plenty of fellow commies as well) over what I would consider their delusions is far more than any discussions I have with people that might be considered right wing.

Secondly, where's the discussion value to be had here? surely not in calling the subforum toxic (Nice by the way, good way to inspire well-meaning debate). How widespread do you find this "callout culture" (Used as an example for the same reason as the link)? It might be a difference across the Atlantic but from where I sit for every example of extreme callout culture there are plenty of examples of well-meaning debate. This can be evidenced on this very forum on multiple occasions. Could it be done better? Sure, but grandiose titles like "Why I've Started to Fear My Fellow Social Justice Activists" is quite far removed from "we need to address the way that conversations are being conducted to improve A) persuasiveness and B) inclusiveness." The latter is a discussion, the former sounds like you've taken bad acid. Don't you think its kind of clickbait?

The article kind of seems all over the place to be honest, yet more people laying the blame for Trump supporters at the feet of the left is always fun. These people (Trump voters) are adults and yet they are babied by everyone who claims to be speaking for them, the author of the article included. Other than that its not really granting any huge revelations, is it? It reminds me of a post not too long ago about advice regarding the aftermath to "me too", which detailed a list of things largely obvious to anyone who cared about other people's wellbeing. I don't doubt that idiots will do all of the idiotic things listed but as a sideways insult to people on here its an interesting statement. Do you spend all of your time doing nothing other than trying to persuade when you come onto this forum, or do you take a chance to relish in semi-anonymous, largely consequence-free arguing? I imagine its the latter, at least part of the time. So getting in a tissy over people not being persuasive enough seems churlish, frankly.

To be clear: I don't disagree with the articles point or yours (If I have adequately understood said points) but I am confused as to why this isn't already well established. Which isn't to say that there is no reason for the post, frankly I'm very curious to see what people will say in response. (INB4 "Welcome to the new world run by left wing authoritarian progressives ect")

KissingSunlight:
As you can probably guess, I have Facebook friends from all across the political spectrum. Most of the time, what they post is really predictable. This morning, I got one political post from an unexpected source. My friend is a Liberal activist. A real activist that gets his hands dirty helping people. Unlike most "activists" who believe that they are changing the world by harassing people online and virtue signaling. He posted this link http://www.yesmagazine.org/people-power/why-ive-started-to-fear-my-fellow-social-justice-activists-20171013

In another thread, we reached the conclusion that the most toxic subforum on The Escapist is the R&P. I think this article provides insight why it has become that way.

Question: why do you, or your friend, think that call-out culture and shaming is exclusive to the left? I'm not arguing people on the left *don't* do this -- I've expressed my own concerns about this behavior when arguing against the protests/rioting around Milo Yiannopoulos' speeches. I'm just curious why, when these subjects come up, the right seems to get a pass.

Exley97:
I'm just curious why, when these subjects come up, the right seems to get a pass.

"Something, something, the left did it first and we're just being reactionary, something."

I've seen that one before. It's intelligent, thoughtful and clearly comes from a place of experience and knowledge. Therefore, I don't see the relevance to any asinine critique of this forum.

Am I supposed to be responding to the article here, or what?

Exley97:

KissingSunlight:
As you can probably guess, I have Facebook friends from all across the political spectrum. Most of the time, what they post is really predictable. This morning, I got one political post from an unexpected source. My friend is a Liberal activist. A real activist that gets his hands dirty helping people. Unlike most "activists" who believe that they are changing the world by harassing people online and virtue signaling. He posted this link http://www.yesmagazine.org/people-power/why-ive-started-to-fear-my-fellow-social-justice-activists-20171013

In another thread, we reached the conclusion that the most toxic subforum on The Escapist is the R&P. I think this article provides insight why it has become that way.

Question: why do you, or your friend, think that call-out culture and shaming is exclusive to the left? I'm not arguing people on the left *don't* do this -- I've expressed my own concerns about this behavior when arguing against the protests/rioting around Milo Yiannopoulos' speeches. I'm just curious why, when these subjects come up, the right seems to get a pass.

Honestly because conservatives have way better things to do with their time than complain online. Most Hashtavists have huge online personalities, but IRL are just that quiet chick at Starbucks.
Conservatives are IRL huge personalities, while online barely know what Twitter is. I mean when was the last time we heard of the NRA gun-shaming Dennis Leary for not having enough firearms? Or Milo calling out rural Kansas for having too many gendered bathrooms?

Conservatives are much more active than liberals IRL. They don't have time to fat-shame someone, they're taking over school boards and local governments.

You arent a Social Justice Activist.

Edit: "In another thread, we reached the conclusion that the most toxic subforum on The Escapist is the R&P"

Puh-lease. In a Nazi bar everyone agrees that Jews are evil. Doesnt make them right.

And before you try to turn that around, no, a bar of Liberals agree that Nazis are evil doesnt make them right, but the events of The Holocaust do.

Silentpony:
Honestly because conservatives have way better things to do with their time than complain online.

I don't think the conservatives on this board got that memo, lol.

KissingSunlight:
As you can probably guess, I have Facebook friends from all across the political spectrum. Most of the time, what they post is really predictable. This morning, I got one political post from an unexpected source. My friend is a Liberal activist. A real activist that gets his hands dirty helping people. Unlike most "activists" who believe that they are changing the world by harassing people online and virtue signaling. He posted this link http://www.yesmagazine.org/people-power/why-ive-started-to-fear-my-fellow-social-justice-activists-20171013

In another thread, we reached the conclusion that the most toxic subforum on The Escapist is the R&P. I think this article provides insight why it has become that way.

How the fuck could you possibly even think this is the most toxic sub on the Escapist? People get spicy sometimes but the mods do a halfway decent job of keeping people in line. Like, have you never visited GID? The WW? Any other website with a forum?

Remember GG? Because I sure as hell do.

Because as far as I can see, as much as this place often becomes an "us vs. them" slapfight we still have a variety of voices in the "us" and "them" columns. If by "toxic" do you really mean "doesn't always lean the way I want it to"?

Silentpony:
Conservatives are IRL huge personalities, while online barely know what Twitter is.

I dunno about that man. Remember the uproar about Milo losing his blue checkmark? Laura Loomer's tire? Papa John, Jack Posobiec and the whole Nazi pizza debacle? Grant Kidney? Baked Alaska getting his camera EDIT: iPhone (sorry) broken and everyone having a laugh over the cops not giving a shit? Paul Joseph Watson smoking cigarettes to "own" the libs? Roger Stone and all his angry outbursts? That dingus who founded Turning Point USA and those kids at Kent State that dressed up like babies to protest safe spaces and like four people turned up?

Maybe I just know about this because occasionally follow the ridiculous drama on Twitter and watching idiots get dunked on is amusing but there seem to be plenty of outspoken conservatives on Twitter.

Silentpony:

Honestly because conservatives have way better things to do with their time than complain online.

So where is /pol/ and /r/the_donald coming from? To say nothing of places like Brietbart, FreeRepublic, Stormfront, Godlike Productions, ect?

Smithnikov:

Silentpony:

Honestly because conservatives have way better things to do with their time than complain online.

So where is /pol/ and /r/the_donald coming from? To say nothing of places like Brietbart, FreeRepublic, Stormfront, Godlike Productions, ect?

To be fair, if you compare the number of upvotes in the donald with active users, I'm pretty sure one can conclude the vast majority are bots. The rest, yea.

Chewster:
I dunno about that man. Remember the uproar about Milo losing his blue checkmark? Laura Loomer's tire? Papa John, Jack Posobiec and the whole Nazi pizza debacle? Grant Kidney? Baked Alaska getting his camera EDIT: iPhone (sorry) broken and everyone having a laugh over the cops not giving a shit? Paul Joseph Watson smoking cigarettes to "own" the libs? Roger Stone and all his angry outbursts? That dingus who founded Turning Point USA and those kids at Kent State that dressed up like babies to protest safe spaces and like four people turned up?

Maybe I just know about this because occasionally follow the ridiculous drama on Twitter and watching idiots get dunked on is amusing but there seem to be plenty of outspoken conservatives on Twitter.

Don't forget that ass boil Cernovich.

Smithnikov:

Silentpony:

Honestly because conservatives have way better things to do with their time than complain online.

So where is /pol/ and /r/the_donald coming from? To say nothing of places like Brietbart, FreeRepublic, Stormfront, Godlike Productions, ect?

Honestly most of R_donald is bots. Of the 500,000+ subs, only a few thousand of them are actual accounts.

And I'd say they're not real conservatives. Surely Trump isn't. He isn't for small government, or common sense regulations or no military interventions or small spending. And his supporters certainly aren't conservatives. They're racists, facisist trolls, especially in R_Donald, but not conservatives.

Smithnikov:

Silentpony:

Honestly because conservatives have way better things to do with their time than complain online.

So where is /pol/ and /r/the_donald coming from? To say nothing of places like Brietbart, FreeRepublic, Stormfront, Godlike Productions, ect?

/pol/ isn't particularly conservative. They are a bunch of trolls and people who have fun with how edgy the place is. Hell, I fuck around on /pol/ even though I vote mostly democrat and independent, wouldn't know that from my shitposting though.

Jux:

Chewster:
I dunno about that man. Remember the uproar about Milo losing his blue checkmark? Laura Loomer's tire? Papa John, Jack Posobiec and the whole Nazi pizza debacle? Grant Kidney? Baked Alaska getting his camera EDIT: iPhone (sorry) broken and everyone having a laugh over the cops not giving a shit? Paul Joseph Watson smoking cigarettes to "own" the libs? Roger Stone and all his angry outbursts? That dingus who founded Turning Point USA and those kids at Kent State that dressed up like babies to protest safe spaces and like four people turned up?

Maybe I just know about this because occasionally follow the ridiculous drama on Twitter and watching idiots get dunked on is amusing but there seem to be plenty of outspoken conservatives on Twitter.

Don't forget that ass boil Cernovich.

Of course. And that wankstick Gavin McInnes (which is object lesson in what happens when angry hipsters are given unfettered access to steroids) and the Proud Boys too. Pretty sure Ezra Levant still has his blue checkmark. Dunno if they count as however the fuck we're defining "conservative" on this particular day but they sure as fuck aren't liberals.

Twitter has more than it's share of people of almost every political stripe, I'd be willing to wager.

Yup, this sounds about right. It also sounds just like every youth party meeting I ever went to in my teens. As it turns out, when you put a dozen people in a room and ask them how they can campaign against the European Monetary Union you'll get about a dozen answers and some of them will be very far from one another. This is how politics are, a lot of people with a lot of strong opinions flinging them at each other.

The only differences from 15 years ago when I sat in the social democratic youth party's tiny closet of an office and argued how to best draw attention to our campaign for a youth center and now is that the barriers for entry into political discussion are much lower, the participating groups are larger and the internal discord is vented publicly. Back then it was me and six buddies going at each other in a closed office, now the discussion about the nuances of feminism is taken to social media where it is open for all to see and participate in.

I mean, this is what happens when you let the discussion free. It will reveal all the cracks and divides among people that share the same persuasion but of different nuances and they will bicker among each other about whether upper class people can really be socialists or if transgender women are actually women despite their lack of lived female experiences etc.. It happens and yes, it can be frustrating and disheartening as all hell. But what's the option? That we shouldn't let passionate people with strong ideals talk about what they believe? Tone policing is a shitty way to debate and that's exactly what this is, telling people that their tone is wrong and they need to be more conciliatory in their approach.

And let's not pretend that this is exclusive to the left or SJAs. It is the new political landscape and the right is in on it too, or did we all conveniently forget Milo and Trump constantly attacking people on their own end that they disagree with?

Gethsemani:
And let's not pretend that this is exclusive to the left or SJAs. It is the new political landscape and the right is in on it too, or did we all conveniently forget Milo and Trump constantly attacking people on their own end that they disagree with?

I think that people associate buzzwords like tone policing more with the left because of the pervasive myth that it's the left that wants to control you. When it's the right attacking each other, it's not over things like language that's exclusionary and divisive, it's over machismo bullshit where you're calling someone out for 'not telling it like it is' or 'being weak'. Instead of correctly framing it as trying to bully people to fall back in line, it's framed as 'being free from political correctness'.

Jux:

Gethsemani:
And let's not pretend that this is exclusive to the left or SJAs. It is the new political landscape and the right is in on it too, or did we all conveniently forget Milo and Trump constantly attacking people on their own end that they disagree with?

I think that people associate buzzwords like tone policing more with the left because of the pervasive myth that it's the left that wants to control you. When it's the right attacking each other, it's not over things like language that's exclusionary and divisive, it's over machismo bullshit where you're calling someone out for 'not telling it like it is' or 'being weak'. Instead of correctly framing it as trying to bully people to fall back in line, it's framed as 'being free from political correctness'.

The right push religion on us. The right take away a woman's right to choose, and everyone's right to love.

Anyone who thinks it is the left and not the right who seek control, then they are already stringed puppets.

Oh and those Islamic Extremist groups that the right hate so much...they are right-wingers too.

Gethsemani:

The only differences from 15 years ago when I sat in the social democratic youth party's tiny closet of an office and argued how to best draw attention to our campaign for a youth center and now is that the barriers for entry into political discussion are much lower, the participating groups are larger and the internal discord is vented publicly. Back then it was me and six buddies going at each other in a closed office, now the discussion about the nuances of feminism is taken to social media where it is open for all to see and participate in.

This was generally my experience working with both the Republican and Democrat parties in the early 2000's.

You always had some segment of the group that was more concerned with policing their own ideology in pursuit of some kind of mythical level of "purity", or constantly putting other people in the party down to assert their own conservative/liberal cred, usually in the most infuriatingly condescending fashion. Any mistake was instantly pounced on to jockey for power or prestige within the group, and you always had at least 2 segments at each others throats for not adhering closely enough to the perceived direction they want things to go.

Back then, you settled it in person, and you had a leader or moderator to control the message to make sure that one guy stewing in the back didn't go off message to the public. The internet existed, but was mostly limited to forums, and mainstream media barely understood how the internet worked much less cared about reporting on random internet forum slapfights.

Around 2004 I actually came to blows with a feminism advocate in a student group I was in because they wanted to hitch feminism and their Socialist economic views together as part of the group and kept trying to purity check anyone that wanted to call themselves a feminist against their economic views. Seen a couple of internal animal rights group brawls turn into fist fights as well, though never got directly involved.

Nowadays you have to contend with basically anyone using your hashtag or following your facebook group being associated with your movement or ideology as if they were a paid spokesperson, with no way to really control or moderate the social media yahoos unless they manage to piss so many people off they get shouted down or banned.

Clickbait culture is another culprit, the advocacy groups I still work with often have social media facing controls in place specifically because journalists are on the prowl for that one loudmouth that has the most extreme positions and giving them a soap box attached to your campaign or hashtag because that drives clicks, you can put out pamphlets, run charity drives, and have a clear concise mission statement, but God help you if that one jackass decides to start a shitfight on Twitter with a profile picture of them wearing a shirt with your logo on it. It's not even just the journalists fault, this shit wouldn't happen if it didn't drive clicks and revenue like crazy.

Not to say the internet is entirely at fault, but this isn't something we can change through a single ideology, its something humans as a whole are going to have to adapt to as long as we live in a culture where anyone capable of using a keyboard is able to attach themselves to a cause and put every thought in their head out there for the world to see.

So yeah, to give some thought to the three points raised in the article.

Forgiveness is not a human right
Forgiveness may sometimes be needed, but that doesn't mean it can ever be demanded and it certainly doesn't mean it doesn't have to be earned. At the basis of every demand for social justice is a simple idea which, when put into practice, becomes radical. That idea is that we exist for ourselves. We don't exist for other people, we don't exist to make their lives better, or to teach them important moral lessons, or to make them better people, or to open their minds, or to educate them, or to serve as living examples or symbols. We exist for the benefit of ourselves. If people get angry in the face of injustice, if they don't want to forgive those who have wronged or hurt them (or even who have wronged or hurt others) then that is their right. It is up to each of us to decide when someone has earned our forgiveness, and without some meaningful attempt to earn forgiveness, demanding forgiveness is simply demanding silence.

If the term "virtue signalling" ever had a meaning before it was appropriated and watered down into nothingness, then I can think of no better description than claiming to want justice, but only being willing to pursue that justice when there is a firm promise that you will be rewarded and celebrated for doing so, and that any transgressions or hurtful things you might have done will simply be automatically forgiven. Similarly, there is nothing worse than activists circles who spend more time "selling" their community to outsiders than actually supporting or affirming the right of that community to govern their own lives.

Imperfection is ugly, and ugly people don't get equal treatment
It's hard to deny that some segments of the left have been prone to engaging in the "politics of perfection" and, in that sense, have been irresponsible in acknowledging their own complicity in oppression. This is, however, nothing new. The old left, with its strict Marxist emphasis on class as the ultimate form and source of all other oppression, was (and is) particularly prone to it. Furthermore, it isn't really an accident, in fact the reasons why it happens are fairly obvious. All those who have to work for or demand full inclusion or acceptance within society, or who speak truth to power, are subject to a standard which is not applied to others, a standard which requires them to be perfect. Any imperfection, after all, would invalidate their claim to equality and justify societal exclusion. Minorities learn this well, and thus advocates learn to police themselves and attempt to hide any ugliness or imperfection from the outside.

The point is, adopting a politics of imperfection does not simply demand that activists accept imperfection from well meaning peers, it also requires that we live in a society where social inclusion is not contingent on never showing that imperfection. Sadly, we don't.

Shared humanity shouldn't need to be pointed out
We are all human beings. That much is obvious to everyone save the most delusional and militant on the far right, which also implies that perhaps shared humanity isn't the problem. Shared humanity was compatible with the practice of slavery, it was compatible with participating in the holocaust. Recognising each other as human does not entail treating each other as equal, that is and has always required a step further - specifically, demonstrating that we all have the same humanity, or, to put it more bluntly, that we are ultimately the same in all the ways which matter.

But we aren't, of course. To many people, skin colour does matter. To many people, who you are sexually attracted to does matter. To these people, those who are different from them can never have the same humanity, because they are different in ways which matter. We can perhaps go out of our way to minimise the pejorative associations which they have towards those differences. Gay people can live in monogamous couples in nice neighbourhoods and be gender-appropriate and completely asexual in public and never talk back to heterosexuals, and maybe this will persuade some people that they are worthy of toleration because, after all, they're so normal. This is not activism, however, it's just survival and, as mentioned above, as soon as the facade of "perfection" slips we are right back to where we started.

Again, activism cannot simply be about selling a minority to the majority, because that's shallow and ultimately it isn't going to work. Telling straight people they'll be much better off with a safe, asexually gay BFF to tell them how fabulous they look isn't activism. Telling white people how cool it would be to get that one black friend they need to officially not be racist ever isn't activism. Telling minority groups they need to work to be inoffensive and appealing to the majority isn't activism, it's stating the fucking obvious. Majorities have to work too, and any activism which doesn't tell that for fear of alienating them is, at best, trading overt hatred for second class citizenship. The internet has given people large, global communities where they can be accepted, where they can talk openly and freely about the experience of marginalisation and where, yes, they can pass judgement on those who maybe believe themselves to be above such judgement. The standards have risen and maybe people are less willing to accept injustices which they previously would have done. This is not a bad thing.

I started to read it but couldn't bear it midway, it's like reading a communist in soviet Russia freaking out when he understands where he is or alternatively a nazi in nazi Germany. Those people earned the toxic political environment they created, to the surprise of no one who actually thinks about what they preach.

Silentpony:

Honestly because conservatives have way better things to do with their time than complain online. Most Hashtavists have huge online personalities, but IRL are just that quiet chick at Starbucks.
Conservatives are IRL huge personalities, while online barely know what Twitter is. I mean when was the last time we heard of the NRA gun-shaming Dennis Leary for not having enough firearms? Or Milo calling out rural Kansas for having too many gendered bathrooms?

Conservatives are much more active than liberals IRL. They don't have time to fat-shame someone, they're taking over school boards and local governments.

I'm not going to disagree with the online presence vs real life presence thing (though I think that's been quickly becoming less of a thing), but I don't see much evidence for the "Much better things to do with their time than complain." Just look at the Starbucks christmas fiascos, picketing abortion clinics, ardent fight against gay marriage (While less so these days), white genocide, as well as numerous general complaints about current culture (PC culture, Millennials expecting things to be handed to them, snowflakes, many others). I think there are differences between the left and right, but I don't think whether they or to what extent they complain about the state of the world is one.

And come on, too busy to fat shame? There's no way you actually believe that

Theoretically, I think it comes to one of two main things.

1. A sense of Self Righteousness. If you are in the right, or if you are the victim of Bullying then of course anything you can't be wrong. I've suffered from bullies until I got into my first fight at school in the 7th grade. So I know first hand that I could be a asshole, and not just a little bit but in the words of Naruto's Jiraiya: A really Big One!!

Or I can't be evil because I am just following orders, have god on my side, of the master race, a member of the most powerful nation of the time period, and so on and so on. You see this with Black Lives Matters, who's ideals of stopping police brutality is admirable in the highest, but they end up attacking Hillary Clinton (a Democrat and Liberal, so on the political side most on their side), and at least one Gay Pride Parade, you know they are just looking for attention. We saw this Mountain Meadows Massacre with the Mormon Pioneers, we saw this with this the Crusades, and so on and so on. It doesn't make it good, or righteous but as long as they believe it they will.

2. No matter how good a cause is, the larger it is the more likely you are to see the worst of humanity. You may have a great group of friends, but you know that ONE GUY, that one guy you want to strangle with his own pretentiousness or even his own intestines.

[/quote]Honestly because conservatives have way better things to do with their time than complain online.[/quote]

Considering a Trump re-tweeted a picture of the Moors Murders Couple, and Wikipedia has had to BAN White House from editing articles (like say the Transgender Actress on Orange is the New Black), no, they do it here too.

Exley97:

Question: why do you, or your friend, think that call-out culture and shaming is exclusive to the left? I'm not arguing people on the left *don't* do this -- I've expressed my own concerns about this behavior when arguing against the protests/rioting around Milo Yiannopoulos' speeches. I'm just curious why, when these subjects come up, the right seems to get a pass.

Well I can't speak for other countries as I don't read the comment sections of articles on Fox, CNN or whatever. But based on the discussions I see here in Belgium the right is much less active in the "let's rip each other apart because one is not extreme enough"-department. I see a lot more hyperboles and internal shaming among progressive activists than right wingers. Do also note that the right over here is mainly supported by entrepreneurs and upper middle class/rich people. Not the kind of people who spend a lot of time commenting and debating online. And the far right tends to be supported by older people, also not a very digital demographic. But again, this is how things are here.

generals3:

Exley97:

Question: why do you, or your friend, think that call-out culture and shaming is exclusive to the left? I'm not arguing people on the left *don't* do this -- I've expressed my own concerns about this behavior when arguing against the protests/rioting around Milo Yiannopoulos' speeches. I'm just curious why, when these subjects come up, the right seems to get a pass.

Well I can't speak for other countries as I don't read the comment sections of articles on Fox, CNN or whatever. But based on the discussions I see here in Belgium the right is much less active in the "let's rip each other apart because one is not extreme enough"-department. I see a lot more hyperboles and internal shaming among progressive activists than right wingers. Do also note that the right over here is mainly supported by entrepreneurs and upper middle class/rich people. Not the kind of people who spend a lot of time commenting and debating online. And the far right tends to be supported by older people, also not a very digital demographic. But again, this is how things are here.

You make a good point -- I think there's definitely something to the age factor in this equation. If older people tend to be more conservative (which is also true in the States) then you're a lot less likely to see at least that contingency of conservatives engaging in online toxicity and internet shaming. That's not to say these people don't exist and wouldn't engage in this type of behavior if given the means and the proper acumen.

But there's also a very vocal contingency here in the States that DOES engage in this stuff. You can't talk about NFL protests online without right wingers shaming you about hating America and disrespecting troops and other nonsensical bullshit. You can't discuss police brutality without conservatives wailing about how liberals hate cops. You can't criticize fossil fuel industries without being painted as some type of Ayn Rand villain. You can't talk about the importance of civil liberties and the dangers of warrantless surveillance without being smeared as a terrorist sympathizer. Sometimes it's simply noise on social media directed by and at anonymous commenters. And other times it's more coordinated, public and insidious: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2017/11/02/fox-news-smears-jake-tapper-because-ratings/?utm_term=.31d86b8b259a

generals3:
I see a lot more hyperboles and internal shaming among progressive activists than right wingers.

I can agree in part: if there's one thing the left is extraordinarily good at, it's factionalism, splitting and arguing and criticising amongst themselves over relatively minor disagreements and usually getting pretty damn heated about it.

The right is just as hyperbolic, I would say, but that hyperbole is usually directed outward, at their actual electoral opponents. We're seeing something of a reversal in the UK Conservative Party at the moment, as Tory ministers turn on Tory ministers and the knives are out. But generally, the left-wing parties are deft hands at self-sabotage.

"Started to"? Hello Slowpoke, it's Current Year. All the others in the Coven have been secretly terrified of each other for years. One is reminded of the essay Exiting the Vampire Castle (2013-ish?) by the late Mark Fisher, not to mention the gleeful celebrations that the occasion of his subsequent suicide elicited from some very woke quarters. "Cisheteropatriarchy" is no match for these people in terms of callous disregard for individual lives.

As to why such behavior is associated with "The Left", well, there are some interconnected reasons. First of all, because they are Utopian idealists who refuse to consider human imperfection as anything but a nefarious conspiracy propagated by Oppressive Enemy Forces, rather than simply part of our inherent nature, whereas people to the right of the Left Pole generally don't view life in such terms. Then there's the inconvenient logic of their ideology that condemns competition in all domains except the righteous correctness of your quasi-political "insights", so they compete viciously in that sphere. And of course you always have to be vigilant against someone denouncing you before you denounce them.

StatusNil:

As to why such behavior is associated with "The Left", well, there are some interconnected reasons. First of all, because they are Utopian idealists who refuse to consider human imperfection as anything but a nefarious conspiracy propagated by Oppressive Enemy Forces, rather than simply part of our inherent nature, whereas people to the right of the Left Pole generally don't view life in such terms. Then there's the inconvenient logic of their ideology that condemns competition in all domains except the righteous correctness of your quasi-political "insights", so they compete viciously in that sphere. And of course you always have to be vigilant against someone denouncing you before you denounce them.

Do you actually expect anybody to consider this informative? That someone might somehow fail to realise you're just endlessly grinding an axe down to its handle, and think there's useful information here?

Smithnikov:

Silentpony:

Honestly because conservatives have way better things to do with their time than complain online.

So where is /pol/ and /r/the_donald coming from? To say nothing of places like Brietbart, FreeRepublic, Stormfront, Godlike Productions, ect?

/pol/ and t_d are mostly made up of memes, posting lefty hypocrisies, laughing at SJWs, "redpilling someone moments" and celebrating Trump. There is some complaining/defensiveness at times but it's not the bread and butter of those two places like it is in other liberal forums. People going after Melania/Barron or troops/veterans really triggers t_d though.

Silvanus:

Do you actually expect anybody to consider this informative? That someone might somehow fail to realise you're just endlessly grinding an axe down to its handle, and think there's useful information here?

Well, I'm sorry if you somehow feel implicated in the phenomenon I was describing, but the crowd I'm talking about don't have a high regard for "tone policing" themselves, so I don't feel too bad for any bluntness that might seem untoward in polite company. And no, I don't consider this "informative", as I presume we are all aware of nature of this particular movement. I do, however, consider it interpretative, and a fine conversation starter. Would you say I was wrong about the idea of the perfectibility of humans through cultural intervention inherent in extreme social constructionism? Or that this ideology views competitiveness as toxic and destructive, frowning on the pursuit of individual distinction? Or perhaps the fractious and sometimes paranoid nature of such communities? Anything? This is a discussion after all, so you can go right ahead and correct my mistakes, instead of dwelling on my lack of delicacy.

And don't worry about my grinding axe, it's been tempered in the searing flames of Social Justice.

Delicious Anathema:

Smithnikov:

Silentpony:

Honestly because conservatives have way better things to do with their time than complain online.

So where is /pol/ and /r/the_donald coming from? To say nothing of places like Brietbart, FreeRepublic, Stormfront, Godlike Productions, ect?

/pol/ and t_d are mostly made up of memes, posting lefty hypocrisies, laughing at SJWs, "redpilling someone moments" and celebrating Trump. There is some complaining/defensiveness at times but it's not the bread and butter of those two places like it is in other liberal forums. People going after Melania/Barron or troops/veterans really triggers t_d though.

Okay, that's two. How about the others?

Throw in CARM, /r/incel, the Catholic Nationalist facebook page to that list too.

StatusNil:
First of all, because they are Utopian idealists who refuse to consider human imperfection as anything but a nefarious conspiracy propagated by Oppressive Enemy Forces, rather than simply part of our inherent nature, whereas people to the right of the Left Pole generally don't view life in such terms.

You've never heard of Christianity, have you?

Smithnikov:

StatusNil:
First of all, because they are Utopian idealists who refuse to consider human imperfection as anything but a nefarious conspiracy propagated by Oppressive Enemy Forces, rather than simply part of our inherent nature, whereas people to the right of the Left Pole generally don't view life in such terms.

You've never heard of Christianity, have you?

Yeah, that's basically grape flavored evangelical Christianity right there.

Fruit punch flavored says that humans are naturally terrible, and that God is responsible for anything good we manage to do.

altnameJag:

Smithnikov:

StatusNil:
First of all, because they are Utopian idealists who refuse to consider human imperfection as anything but a nefarious conspiracy propagated by Oppressive Enemy Forces, rather than simply part of our inherent nature, whereas people to the right of the Left Pole generally don't view life in such terms.

You've never heard of Christianity, have you?

Yeah, that's basically grape flavored evangelical Christianity right there.

Fruit punch flavored says that humans are naturally terrible, and that God is responsible for anything good we manage to do.

Prefer mine to be Lemon Lime with Rainbow Sherbet to be honest.

saint of m:

altnameJag:

Smithnikov:

You've never heard of Christianity, have you?

Yeah, that's basically grape flavored evangelical Christianity right there.

Fruit punch flavored says that humans are naturally terrible, and that God is responsible for anything good we manage to do.

Prefer mine to be Lemon Lime with Rainbow Sherbet to be honest.

Ahh, the "you don't actually have to be a good person to go to heaven as long as you believe in Jesus and say the right prayers, and you can be the best person in the world and still go to hell if you don't believe" evangelical Christian.

Smithnikov:

Delicious Anathema:

Smithnikov:

So where is /pol/ and /r/the_donald coming from? To say nothing of places like Brietbart, FreeRepublic, Stormfront, Godlike Productions, ect?

/pol/ and t_d are mostly made up of memes, posting lefty hypocrisies, laughing at SJWs, "redpilling someone moments" and celebrating Trump. There is some complaining/defensiveness at times but it's not the bread and butter of those two places like it is in other liberal forums. People going after Melania/Barron or troops/veterans really triggers t_d though.

Okay, that's two. How about the others?

Throw in CARM, /r/incel, the Catholic Nationalist facebook page to that list too.

Breitbart has hitpieces on the left, pretty much mirrorring the MSM in tone, just for a different taste, they don't complain as much because their political party is in office. The others I have no idea what they are.

StatusNil:
As to why such behavior is associated with "The Left", well, there are some interconnected reasons. First of all, because they are Utopian idealists who refuse to consider human imperfection as anything but a nefarious conspiracy propagated by Oppressive Enemy Forces, rather than simply part of our inherent nature, whereas people to the right of the Left Pole generally don't view life in such terms.

This so much.

"My life is crap, which one of you is responsible for it?"

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