Trump reduces Utah National Mounuments

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Zontar:
Snip

No, it's a friend of mine who's career is being put in jeopardy by the guy you thought would be a good president. Spoiler alert, you were wrong. The Jewish friend who's existence you denied because he talked to a holocaust survivor who said Trump reminded her of what she had been through. And that was inconvenient to your world view, so you assumed that my friend must not actually exist.

I don't forgive you. I tell you about how my friend's plans are ruined and you more or less say "I don't care." Well, where do I go from here. I point out people that Trump's actions are hurting and you don't care. Because you have it bad too? Did your future get ruined recently? No? Then I feel you're just fishing for an excuse to not care. Also I get the funny feeling I'd be ok with Canada's higher taxes if it came with the protection and worker benefits that the US sorely lacks. Like, I dunno, fucking universal health care? That seems to be something the GOP treats like a leper though.

That's not whatboutism. It's me showing that you're a massive fucking hypocrite. Call Clinton out for changing her mind on something when you supported Trump and then have nothing to say when his countless lies are being exposed. Really it just seems that you're ok with Trump doing it but not with Clinton doing it. Hey, I can admit Clinton's dirty. She's a dirty fucking snake in the grass. But I've yet to see you ever call out Trump for his lies, and how he constantly goes back on what he said. I mean for fuck's sake, you're trying to defend Trump on health insurance when he and the GOP are trying their damnedest to make it so that the poor in this country can't afford health insurance, ANOTHER fucking lie of his that you seem to want to just gloss over. Bernie Sanders had real fun with this one not too long ago.

image

A college humor vid. Congrats. Here I was expecting something of substance, like movements. Guess I got my hopes too high. I mean, come on, practically all the comments are defending Teddy. Quite a couple of them for creating national parks. Fittingly. Oh speaking of which, you never answered my question. Do you actually have anything to defend what Trump is doing? Because it doesn't seem like you do.

erttheking:

No, it's a friend of mine who's career is being put in jeopardy by the guy you thought would be a good president. Spoiler alert, you were wrong. The Jewish friend who's existence you denied because he talked to a holocaust survivor who said Trump reminded her of what she had been through. And that was inconvenient to your world view, so you assumed that my friend must not actually exist.

And so this friend of yours (who despite being in higher education isn't all that smart given his views on Trump in comparison to Godwin's Law. Always ironic when a Jew is the one trivialising the holocaust for political reasons), what exactly is it he does?

I don't forgive you. I tell you about how my friend's plans are ruined and you more or less say "I don't care." Well, where do I go from here. I point out people that Trump's actions are hurting and you don't care. Because you have it bad too? Did your future get ruined recently? No? Then I feel you're just fishing for an excuse to not care.

Why should I care that the people who have been openly jovial that people like me where suffering and had our way of life under threat now have to deal with the same thing as a result of the political backlash from those whose misery they laughed at? Call it petty, call it what you will,
but I have no sympathy for those who took joy in the suffering of others who then had that done onto them by those they had laughed at.

Also I get the funny feeling I'd be ok with Canada's higher taxes if it came with the protection and worker benefits that the US sorely lacks. Like, I dunno, fucking universal health care? That seems to be something the GOP treats like a leper though.

Our healthcare isn't the great system your left coast pretends it is, it has many, many flaws that are a reason why many of us go to the US to get medical treatment despite the fact we have to pay for it 100% in full without insurance to do so.

Hell until the early 00s it was objectively worst then your healthcare system (you know, the one that was so bad Obama won an election on the promise of fixing) due to government mismanagement that got to the level that the Supreme Court had to order the government to allow a parallel private health care system to exist (which, incidentally, cut down costs, cut down waiting times,
and increased overall quality). They also ordered the death panels be put an end to given they violated the rights of patients (the GOP didn't pull that one out their ass, we had that for a time up here).

Our system is still shit but it isn't as shit as it used to be, though we're still loosing doctors and nurses in large numbers due to the fact they have a better deal down south.

That's not whatboutism. It's me showing that you're a massive fucking hypocrite. Call Clinton out for changing her mind on something when you supported Trump and then have nothing to say when his countless lies are being exposed.

Clinton 'changed her mind' on it? I'm unaware of a moment she endorsed the TPP in public, only that behind closed doors with the only people who actually influence people like her she supported it and wanted it to expand.

But I've yet to see you ever call out Trump for his lies, and how he constantly goes back on what he said. I mean for fuck's sake, you're trying to defend Trump on health insurance when he and the GOP are trying their damnedest to make it so that the poor in this country can't afford health insurance, ANOTHER fucking lie of his that you seem to want to just gloss over.

Ryan's health care plan sucks and I made no secret of that back when that was the major thread everyone was active in. The ACA is still cancer that should be repealed though.

A college humor vid. Congrats. Here I was expecting something of substance, like movements.

You expected movements because...? I said I've seen plenty of progressives badmouthing Teddy, why would you expect a whole movement about it? Hell, why would we need a whole movement about it given at most you'd only have another part of the stupid "tear down our history" one that's arisen in the US as of late.

Oh speaking of which, you never answered my question. Do you actually have anything to defend what Trump is doing? Because it doesn't seem like you do.

When it comes to this issue, health care and the FCC? Not really, this is being done as others have pointed out for political reasons in Washington, the health care issue is taking too long to solve, and the FCC is one he's dropped the ball on.

That being said, given the economic disaster Clinton or Sanders would have been, outside of maybe Cruz I don't see an argument that holds up to scrutiny that there was a better option. Plus his term has so far seen the US economy better then Obama ever did (though some people pretend that it took exactly 9 years for the effects of Obama's administration to kick in, as insane as such a claim is), he's actually facing opposition in the Congress, Judiciary and Media (something Sanders likely would have had but Clinton would certainly have not) leading to effective checks and balances, he's returned some of the power the Executive has stolen from the Congress over the years to its rightful owner, and his being president has caused progressives to spurg out and show their true colours for the world to see and thus delegitimised their radical movement in the eyes of mainstream society even more then they'd already had (and they just keep digging deeper with each passing day).

All of these things are positives that outweigh the negatives for me. Now if only my leader would follow Trump's lead with regards to dropping out of the TPP, but then he is a puppet of China so I can't be surprised he hasn't done so.

Zontar:
Snip

Ok, I had a response typed up, clicked off by accident and last it all, so you're getting the cliff notes version of what I wrote:

* A person that calls Holocaust survivors retarded because they bring up their experiences in a way they don't like has no right to accuse anyone of trivializing the Holocaust.
* My friend never laughed at your situation, no one down here laughed at your situation, we're dealing with too much shit to even think about your situation, you are not a victim and you are merely spitefully enjoying the pain of a person who never did anything to you.
*Death Panels never existed in the US, US customers want to buy Canadian insurance but can't, and I have to question how many Canadians who come down here for treatment are poor, I bet next to none, and those are the people I'm worried about with health care.
* Clinton publicly supported it, I really have no idea how you missed this.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/15/politics/45-times-secretary-clinton-pushed-the-trade-bill-she-now-opposes/index.html
*Removing the ACA would leave millions without healthcare, something none of its opponents seem to care about, also it was gutted to appease the GOP. Great waste of time that turned out to be.
* Because when I live in a country where everyone on both sides of the spectrum love Teddy and someone tells me that isn't the case, I was expecting more to disprove this love than one video and second hand accounts.
* The United States' GDP has been rising ever since the recession, no one who claims Trump helped it along can seem to point out exactly what he did, it rose all throughout Obama's term, Trump has just managed to not fuck it up.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-per-capita
* You say Bernie and Clinton would be an economic disaster, when Trump is part of a historically unpopular tax plan that would cut taxes to corporations, expect the lower and middle class to pick up the tab, and still leave a 1.5 trillion deficit despite the GOP saying they hate deficits. Even corporations that would have their taxes cut hate this tax plan.
* You support Trump for doing something Clinton would have done, celebrate the pain of people you don't like when they didn't do anything to you, and you seem to just take general pleasure in the suffering Trump is causing. You also act like people lashing out disproves a movement when lashing out has happened with pretty much every single massive movement in history.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Do they really want to dig coal, however?

Well, if they had a brain, they wouldn't bother, but the right-wing in both America and Australia have a bizarre habit of fetishising the coal mining industry at the expense of sensible economic policy.

erttheking:

* A person that calls Holocaust survivors retarded because they bring up their experiences in a way they don't like has no right to accuse anyone of trivializing the Holocaust.

It is a downright retarded comparison though, and hell Strazdas (who I disagree with on just about everything) also pointed out to you that it was a stupid comparison.

Trump's campeign had nothing that made a comparison to Hitler anything other then moronic, and it's actually hilariously ironic that the comparison came very often from actual fascists like Antifa's ilk who would without irony have supported someone who was like Hitler given his economic policies and fight for social justice (which yes, was what he called it, because collectivist justice has always been an authoritarian thing).

* My friend never laughed at your situation, no one down here laughed at your situation, we're dealing with too much shit to even think about your situation, you are not a victim and you are merely spitefully enjoying the pain of a person who never did anything to you.

Your left wing media begs to differ, your whole late night comedy industry was built on laughing at people like me.

*Death Panels never existed in the US, US customers want to buy Canadian insurance but can't, and I have to question how many Canadians who come down here for treatment are poor, I bet next to none, and those are the people I'm worried about with health care.

The US may not have had death panels, but we did, and when we did your left wing was still boldly proclaiming our system was the best thing ever and that it should be adopted.

It's a sore spot for me because my grandfather, who had lung cancer, was deprioritised for medication because of such a panel (one of the last before it was declared a violation of our rights), which likely cost him years off his life and made it so I never got to know the man well. That system is one your left was advocating for, and despite the changes we've gone through I still see calls for government only health care for the US.

* Clinton publicly supported it, I really have no idea how you missed this.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/15/politics/45-times-secretary-clinton-pushed-the-trade-bill-she-now-opposes/index.html

Probably because in 2015 I was focusing on other happenings up here, specifically the fact my country was in the middle of a general election.

*Removing the ACA would leave millions without healthcare, something none of its opponents seem to care about, also it was gutted to appease the GOP. Great waste of time that turned out to be.

And keeping it will leave millions who had healthcare without it due to their being unable to afford it, something none of its proponents seem to care about.

Here's a fun fact: our health care law, which is written in 2 languages, is 18 pages, or about 1.2% the length of the ACA.

* Because when I live in a country where everyone on both sides of the spectrum love Teddy and someone tells me that isn't the case, I was expecting more to disprove this love than one video and second hand accounts.

To be honest I only realized people even held a strong opinion of the man when I started seeing progressives posting about how horrible he was to the natives and as a businessman. Guess this is a case of an even more fringe group making its opinions known.

* The United States' GDP has been rising ever since the recession, no one who claims Trump helped it along can seem to point out exactly what he did, it rose all throughout Obama's term, Trump has just managed to not fuck it up.

Yes but this year was far better then most, and for Wall street it was better then any under Obama.

* You say Bernie and Clinton would be an economic disaster, when Trump is part of a historically unpopular tax plan that would cut taxes to corporations, expect the lower and middle class to pick up the tab, and still leave a 1.5 trillion deficit despite the GOP saying they hate deficits. Even corporations that would have their taxes cut hate this tax plan.

I've only seen heat against the tax plan from people who would have hated it regardless of what it was due to partisan reasons. Haven't seen any heat from the right (regardless of socioeconomic status) or corporatists outside of left coast media types who hate any form of tax cut that isn't in the form of a subsidy for entertainment.

Though it is funny to see some blue states threatening to sue the federal government for giving them the higher taxes they've claimed to always want.

* You support Trump for doing something Clinton would have done, celebrate the pain of people you don't like when they didn't do anything to you, and you seem to just take general pleasure in the suffering Trump is causing. You also act like people lashing out disproves a movement when lashing out has happened with pretty much every single massive movement in history.

If she would have, it would have been a bold, unprecedented moved in the history of her career of corrupt politicking. Her stance in public to the plebs like us vs her stance in private to the major financial interest groups that funded her, it's breathtaking to see someone on the left argue that the interests of the plebs would have won. 2 years ago this would have been unthinkable.

I also know it's wrong, but I do get a bit of joy out of a group getting what its dished out for so long. American leftists interfered in my country's election to have a competent leader who got us through the recession mostly unscathed with an idiot who makes Trump legitimately look good by comparison whose incompetence in unparalleled in the modern history of my country, who actively mock and politically attack my kind whenever we try to bring up our legitimate grievances facing our communities because to fix the problem would require 1) admitting the multicultural and mass immigration experiment has failed, 2) reversing those policies with ones that actually work, and 3) would see the cost of the vapid junk sold downtown that people pretend is "cultured" go up 5%. It's wrong, but it's also satisfying to see someone get what they've given others for so long.

The Labour movement in the US told the establishment exactly where it could shove it with last years election, and the anti-labour, anti-Western social justice types showed how petty, how child like they where with their riots and protests and general making an ass out of themselves. Say what you will about the Alt-Right, BLM and Antifa (and boy is there a lot to say about them), they don't pretend to represent the masses or be anything other then the violent fringe they are. Social justice types are actually under the delusion they not only represent the left (despite holding views antithetical to most of the left and incompatible with liberalism), but the country as a whole, and the election showed them how wrong they where.

Zontar:
Snip

And here he goes again. Those darn Holocaust survivors just don't know any better. They pointed out plenty of similarities on how Trump was running on a rhetoric of hate, but there's no similarities because you said so. Oh, Starzdas agrees with you? Oh. Ok. Who is he and why does him agreeing with you prove anything? Yes, Hitler called his party social justice. And then he rounded up all the socialists and killed them. And had a grand time killing communists too North Korea is called the Democratic People's Republic. Call me crazy, I don't think they're accurate terms.

Oh, we're allowed to judge people based on media now? I'm allowed to judge you based on Fox News and Breitbart? Because I feel like if I were to do this with you, you'd flip your shit on me. And late night comedians, oh please. Comedians make fun of fucking everyone. But let me get this straight. Because Alec Baldwin does a mocking impression of Trump, you don't care about the suffering of the American people. Seriously? If I didn't know any better I think you already decided you don't care about the suffering of those people, and you were retroactively trying to justify it.

"The US might not have had death panels. But-" no buts. The US didn't have death panels. You were talking about how the US put an end to death panels. We did not have it, ergo we did not put an end to it. Canada doesn't have it anymore? Then we're not talking about having it. We never did. If you think we do, citation needed. Point out there being major support for death panels.

Suggestion. Do some research next time. Alternate suggestion. I already told you this a few months ago. Listen and don't just filter out everything I say.

The thing that got butchered to hell and back trying to appease the GOP is bloated to high hell? And then they threw fits about it anyway? Unsurprising. Have you ever wondered why the care act that was gutted to appease the people who don't want to spend money on health insurance isn't working that great? I have. Here's the thing. I do care about it. I want a better health care system. I don't want what we have burnt to the ground. Now then. The millions that would not have health insurance. Actually talk about what the plan is for them.

I think it's you thinking people talking on the internet represent a country of 300 million.

Oh goodie. For Wall Street. That'll help the common man. I'll ask again. What did Trump actually DO to make things better for the economy? Because I've gotten nothing but silence every time I've asked.

Look harder next time. Everyone, across the spectrum, hates this.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/05/politics/tax-plan-approval-quinnipiac-poll/index.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-most-americans-disapprove-of-gop-tax-plan/

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/29/poll-gop-voter-support-house-tax-plan-267884

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/11/gop-has-written-the-least-popular-tax-bill-in-recent-history.html

"The higher taxes they've always wanted." This isn't what they wanted and you fucking know it. You know what blue states wanted? Higher taxes on the rich. Not the fucking poor. Enough being disingenuous please.

You mean kind of like it was for Trump? Still not seeing why one was more trustworthy than the other. Seriously, Trump is having the biggest tax jump in American history, forcing it on the poor, but Hillary is the one where you break out the class divide rhetoric for?

Hey, Zontar? I'll make you a deal. I know jack shit about your PM. When he starts tanking relationships with other countries, retweets people being murdered, tries to discriminate against the transgendered, tries to tank your economy with the most unpopular tax plan in your country's history, defends a statutory rapist, leaks classified information to Russia, regularly rants like a toddler about the media being fake because it won't suck him off, doesn't pay his taxes, has made people paranoid about starting a nuclear war, THEN you can say he's worse than Trump. Seriously, call me when your guy supports someone who fucked an underage girl. Then you'll have a right to say he's worse than Trump.

Yeah, you do know that right wing militas were arming themselves in case Trump lost right? You can't pretend that didn't happen. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-militia/u-s-militia-girds-for-trouble-as-presidential-election-nears-idUSKBN12X11R

One side lashes out in anger, the other arms themselves. I know which one I'm more scared of and which one I feel more sorry for. Black Lives Matter lashes out because they're being murdered by police. Milita arm themselves because they were probably going to kill people if the person they wanted didn't win.

Not really, considering that there was historically low turnout due to voter apathy, a few million more people still wanted Clinton. Oh, and people thought that Trump represented the working class. Now he's trying to tax the shit out of them to provide tax cuts to the 1%, coal miners are getting laid off, and a proposed bit of legislation that companies should raise their wages to meet stock growth was universally shot down by the GOP. So much for that.

Zontar:

OT: how exactly is a national monument's land being rezoned as being no longer part of a monument the business of a native tribe? If it's part of their reserve then it changes nothing, and if it isn't they have no say in the matter anyway.

You... do realise Teddy's opinion would be that Trump is a far left liberal pussy who's afraid of what foreigners and people who should be foreigners who somehow got in the country (which applies to whites as much as non-whites) think getting in the way of getting shit done, right? I mean sure he's one of the best presidents you guys had, but his legacy isn't one that modern progressives should be happy about. Which is probably why progressives love taking a huge dump on him. I'm actually surprised to see a progressive not insult the man.

Congrats on knowing absolutely nothing A)Native American Reservations and B) Teddy Roosevelt, arguably the most progressive president up until his Franklin D. Roosevelt's tenure.

Yes, by today's standards Teddy is an unenlightened conservative, but in 1901 he was just about as radically left as you could get outside of the issue of imperialism (which at the time was fairly bipartisan). The man made his entire career on ideas of social, economic, and environmental progressivism. To relate it back to the point you quoted, Teddy Roosevelt is the entire reason we have national parks in the USA, and he'd be damned if anyone would dare target land designated for preservation.

Zontar:

Well to be fair most of Obama's policies had overall negative effects so running on a platform of overturning them would get a lot of the people negatively effected by them to support someone who, well, ran on a platform of reversing them. Now granted, he hasn't been going after the right ones (the Unaffordable Care Act still lives) but I simply stated one shouldn't be surprised that an Obama era policy is being overturned by someone who promised to do just that.

Well look not everything Obama did was perfect, I mean the Drone strikes were pretty damn inexcusable.

But look Jesus Christ the ACA wasn't perfect but it was still better then 'Fuck you poor people I've got mine and I don't care if your family dies' the Healthcare Policy which is what very nearly got put in place in Feburary and the fact that the ACA endured as long as it has and hasn't found a reasonable replacement that doesn't horrifically fuck over poor people to a disastrous extent kind of says something about Trump and Co's ability to produce a replacement that's better no? To say nothing of the Tax reforms, the environmental reforms and so many other things that seem to be being overturned solely because Obama originally signed off on them.

Like ACA wasn't perfect but there were people in rural areas who needed it and they actively voted against it. That I still can't fathom.

And again can you provide a reason that makes sense beyond, 'fuck you environment, fuck you Native Americans and fuck you Obama. I gotta make sure my rich friends get slightly richer' or the development of this plan? Because this really does come across as incredibly petty.

At this point the Pee Pee tape is an almost certainty. It is way too in line with Trump's attitude towards a black man being more successful then him to ignore.

Dango:

Congrats on knowing absolutely nothing A)Native American Reservations and B) Teddy Roosevelt, arguably the most progressive president up until his Franklin D. Roosevelt's tenure.

Yes, by today's standards Teddy is an unenlightened conservative, but in 1901 he was just about as radically left as you could get outside of the issue of imperialism (which at the time was fairly bipartisan). The man made his entire career on ideas of social, economic, and environmental progressivism. To relate it back to the point you quoted, Teddy Roosevelt is the entire reason we have national parks in the USA, and he'd be damned if anyone would dare target land designated for preservation.

It's dangerous to take historical figures and apply them to contemporary problems.

I mean Roosevelt started the bioweapons program which created such frightening fucking shit as bioengineered Q-Fever, that could overwhelm the public health abd agriculture systems of a city and surrounding countrysides and inflict terrible casualties roughly within a week. The insidious thing was the contagion could be carried and spread by anything. Pigs, sheep, cattle... spread between humans and animals equally, to inflict on all aspects of agricultural goods supply necessary to feed a populace or secure natural fibres. Through contaminated milk products, animal excrement, contaminated meat, and more.

Roosevelt emphasised the WW2 shift from soldiers killing soldiers, to the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians for strategic gain. Sure you have examples of military formations stamping on a civilian populace during the Great War. Like German soldiers in Brussels that systematically wiped out civilians.

But nations like the U.S. turned it into an official policy of warfare under leaders like Franklin.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Dango:

Congrats on knowing absolutely nothing A)Native American Reservations and B) Teddy Roosevelt, arguably the most progressive president up until his Franklin D. Roosevelt's tenure.

Yes, by today's standards Teddy is an unenlightened conservative, but in 1901 he was just about as radically left as you could get outside of the issue of imperialism (which at the time was fairly bipartisan). The man made his entire career on ideas of social, economic, and environmental progressivism. To relate it back to the point you quoted, Teddy Roosevelt is the entire reason we have national parks in the USA, and he'd be damned if anyone would dare target land designated for preservation.

It's dangerous to take historical figures and apply them to contemporary problems.

I mean Roosevelt started the bioweapons program which created such frightening fucking shit as bioengineered Q-Fever, that could overwhelm the public health abd agriculture systems of a city and surrounding countrysides and inflict terrible casualties roughly within a week. The insidious thing was the contagion could be carried and spread by anything. Pigs, sheep, cattle... spread between humans and animals equally, to inflict on all aspects of agricultural goods supply necessary to feed a populace or secure natural fibres. Through contaminated milk products, animal excrement, contaminated meat, and more.

Roosevelt emphasised the WW2 shift from soldiers killing soldiers, to the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians for strategic gain. Sure you have examples of military formations stamping on a civilian populace during the Great War. Like German soldiers in Brussels that systematically wiped out civilians.

But nations like the U.S. turned it into an official policy of warfare under leaders like Franklin.

I feel its unfair to place these at the feet of any one man, particularly since bio-weapons and wartime (and even peacetime) genocide were nothing new at the time of either World Wars, dating back hundreds of hundreds of years; there are innumerable examples from Europe alone. Advancements in the field of performing either were quite commonplace during the 20th century, and certainly not rooted in any single world leader.

Dango:

I feel its unfair to place these at the feet of any one man, particularly since bio-weapons and wartime (and even peacetime) genocide were nothing new at the time of either World Wars, dating back hundreds of hundreds of years; there are innumerable examples from Europe alone. Advancements in the field of performing either were quite commonplace during the 20th century, and certainly not rooted in any single world leader.

Kind of? I kind of agree that being a 'progressive' is simply being ahead of your time. In some nebulous connotation of that being more benevolent to human dignity and respect for life. As often the only way of judging moral virtue can often be. But I think it's pretty tragic to make an argument when extracting people out of their time and place.

You end up in a Douglas MacArthur esque situation where you point to his pretty little speeches, while ignoring how he pushed to use nuclear weapons against North Korean and Chinese forces... thinking command, not a head of state, should have sole discretion over the total use of tactical and strategic weapons of war.

Rather than an enemy, you'd have endless wastes and a sickly world in the process. Bit hard to celebrate when all you inherit as spoils is the blasted corpses of countries. And this was the era of the Mark 4 and 8 gun-types... imagine the waste you would have carpetting a country with those. What was really fucking frightening is the prior assemblies they were planning to use could potentially go off with subcritical mass effect if sufficiently damaged given they only mandated IFI after 1952 if I recall my Cold War classes correctly. Essentially one great, big partial-dirty bomb over a massive area.

Which is kind of scary given in war, planes and ships get attacked.

You can say the same things about legal documentation for instance. How people, when they find it convenient, follow letters of the Law... not its spirit. Moreover seem to neglect that laws require revision for a reason. Kind of like the arbitrary delineation people seem to make about people wanting the means for change and yet pretending laws are cast-iron that do not need it, and equating that with """liberty""".

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