Trump is still Racist, reffers to El Salvador, Haiti and African Nations as "shithole countries"

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Samtemdo8:
You know, rather than calling Trump a racist, I rather you guys explain to me how El Salvador, Haiti, and African Nations (I assume Central and North Africa) are not shithole countries.

No one is arguing that these countries aren't poor. What you, and everyone else defending (or at least not calling Trump out on), are missing here is the context behind his statement. Ignoring for a moment it's just fucking stupid to blanketly denigrate entire countries, the message behind what Trump is saying is that because these countries are poor, the people there are undesirable. Why are individuals undesirable just because of the country they came from? News flash chief, when you juxtapose what he says about countries that are predominantly non white being undesirable against the people he does want (people from Norway, insert stereotypical blond hair blue eyed Nordic person here), that's fucking racist.

Trump was a racist when he was discriminating against black tenants back in the 70's, he was racist when he was called for the deaths of the Central Park Five, he was racist when he was calling Alicia Machado (1996 Miss Universe, from Venezuela) 'Miss Housekeeping', he was racist when he said black people were inherently lazy and that he didn't want a black accountant (see: Trumped!), he was racist when he claimed Obama wasn't a US citizen, he was racist when he called Mexicans rapists, and he's just as racist now saying that all Haitians have AIDS and that Nigerians won't want to go back to their huts after coming to the US (never mind that Nigerian immigrants have higher rates of education than white people here)

Yeah, Trump's a tactless assclown, what else is new?

I don't think that this is a deliberate distraction on the part of the Republicans, but it certainly is distracting us from the much more impactful incident in Missouri this last week.

You know, with the Republican governor using revenge porn to blackmail his mistress.

Zontar:
What Haiti needs is an actual economic action plan that'll make the country go through a South Korea or Taiwan like transformation, only problem is on one's willing to flip the bill or be the major nation backing the type of dictatorship you need to get that ball rolling. It's an all around shitshow and that won't be made better with immigration, on the contrary any immigrants worth our having would be a significant detriment to them.

Is the US willing to make the considerable investment in economic and military security that allowed South Korea and Taiwan to turn into prosperous first-world economies? No? Then it won't happen.

bastardofmelbourne:

Is the US willing to make the considerable investment in economic and military security that allowed South Korea and Taiwan to turn into prosperous first-world economies? No? Then it won't happen.

Well immigration won't solve the problem, and even ignoring the depreciated wages, just the added workload I and my coworkers get make me want the skills requirements for immigration to be applied equally instead of holding certain groups to massively lower standards.

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
Statistics that neither you nor Trump have.

Statistics I didn't use because I chose not to turn this into a slagging places off thread. Because I have nothing against the people from those places, despite not wanting to go there.

But if you insist.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Violent-crime/Murder-rate-per-million-people

Note - El Salvador second. You could argue that Puerto Rico being so high is a strike against US territories, but otherwise there are no "western" nations other than Russia and Moldova until you get down to Haiti in 80ish (I'm counting Greenland as a territory). The rest is made up of a decent amount of African nations.

Likewise, if you look at standards of living: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

All well outside the top bracket. Haiti right down near the bottom.

It's funny how people crying about not providing statistics generally don't have any statistics themselves. It's almost like they are trying to avoid actually bringing the statistics into things.

These countries aren't great. That's a harsh reality that people have to recognise and accept. Pretending otherwise just to spite Trump is counter-productive.

I noticed you neglected to address the part where I mentioned Trump didn't have these stats, because research is something he acts like is beneath him, but ok, let's actually look at those stats. And hey, let's look at the ones that have murder rates where the United States has HIGHER murder rates. Niger, Libya, S?o Tom? and Pr?ncipe, freaking Somalia(which also has a lower murder rate than freaking Canada) Egypt, Tunisia (Which has a lower murder rate than the United Kingdom), Algeria and Morocco. Hence Trump lumping all African nations together is a good indicator that he doesn't know what the flying fuck he's talking about. Nothing new there. So he's right about Haiti, good for him, I'd give him some credit if he wasn't trying to throw the entire continent into one big ball, which is what I was taking issue with from the very start and something you seemed to utterly miss, despite the fact I was very blunt about it.

I find it funny that people who provide statistics act like their own statistics don't shoot their own argument in their foot, which is certainly what your murder stats did. Also, Human Development Index isn't quality of life. The two terms aren't interchangeable. But while we're on the topic of Human Development Index, yes, infrastructure wise these countries aren't as great as the west, and I'd really like you to point out where I said otherwise. I just fail to see how that makes rolling all of Africa together into a "shit hole" any less fucking racist. I think Obsidian Jones already pointed out how Trump's attitude is fucking despicable.

This is a bit like saying "we don't want Muslims to immigrate because they want to kill LGBT people. No, we aren't letting Muslim LGBT people immigrate either".

Those people live in a shithole and we want them to stay in that shithole because fuck them. There's no empathy there. No recognition that, if what we say is true it'd be monstrous to not try and help. It's "fuck you, got mine" on a national scale.

I.e. why I hate nationalists.

Avnger:

Kwak:
(but then this raises issues as to their judgement in wanting to live in North America..

I don't think you're actually pushing this idea, but I still feel like it has to be said before one of the usual people jumps on this as an argument. One doesn't get to call these countries shitholes compared to the US then simultaneously say their judgement is bad because they're moving to shitholes in the US...

No it was just an ironic observation. Escaping one shithole for a relatively lower level of shithole is understandable.

Saelune:
This is why I call you a Trump supporter.

Someone asked for statistics. I gave statistics. Some of us like to actually provide evidence on request.

ObsidianJones:
But what people are taking offense to is the offensive tone that Trump has to speak in at all times.

Yes, I likewise find the tone crass and unbecoming. There are a whole gaggle of reasons to condemn Trump for this latest statement.

I just don't really see the point of turning it into a shitness contest:

erttheking:
And hey, let's look at the ones that have murder rates where the United States has HIGHER murder rates. Niger, Libya, S?o Tom? and Pr?ncipe, freaking Somalia(which also has a lower murder rate than freaking Canada) Egypt, Tunisia (Which has a lower murder rate than the United Kingdom), Algeria and Morocco.

Yes, Egypt is all fun and games unless you are a Coptic Christian or any other persecuted minority. Then consider attitudes towards the LGBT community, general attitude towards women, and a lot of the North African coast is suddenly a hell of a lot fucking worse. Also, this is purely murder rate - I haven't looked at any wider crime statistics, because they become meaningless across jurisdictions due to reporting differences.

Sure, he bundled Africa up into a ball. But, as a rule, it pretty much works. People bundle Europe up into a collective all the damn time and nobody takes offence, yet somehow this one is inherently racist. K, so. Have fun.

Catnip1024:

Saelune:
This is why I call you a Trump supporter.

Someone asked for statistics. I gave statistics. Some of us like to actually provide evidence on request.

I call you a Trump supporter because you defend him when he is being blatantly racist. My biggest issue with you is your persistence that you arent a Trump supporter, yet defend him literally at every turn. Even this? Really? You're not even from the US. How many Trump supporters on this site are even from the US?

thebobmaster:

Fair enough. I didn't think religion was the only cause of anti-LGBT attitudes, but you make a fair case.

Such as....? If religion wasn't a prime motivator, why is it sucha convenient excuse? We can argue chcken and egg when religion actually makes a concerted effort not to be either.

It doesn't take a stretch of the intellect to recognise anti-LGBTQ rhetoric in Christianity. You had a Pope declare that trans people are attempting to destroy a depiction of Man as in a reflection of God. You have U.S. presidential nominee saying transgender children are Satanic. You have forced gender reassignment of homosexuals in the Middle East...

How about we display some intellectual hnesty why even Western governments feel the need to transform government power into tools of LGBTQ lawful oppression.

I still think it's wrong to say every Christian is like that, but I can understand more why people think Christianity as a whole is out to get them if they are LGBT. I knew about all the LGBT people killed in the Holocaust, for example, but wasn't aware that, apparently, that had been going on even before Hitler was in power.

This will probably be the last post I make on this particular topic. It seems I don't know anything about this, let alone as much as I thought I did, so I'll just keep my mouth shut on anything between LGBT and religion.

Nobody is legitimately arguing every Christian is like that. What's problematic is that Christians don't seem to mind it. It's a problem of apathy. You can say that as a Christian you have no feelings one way or the other about LGBTQ people ... which problematically turns into; "But at the same time, I don't see a problem with Christianity being used as an excuse for your disenfranchisement and abuse."

More often than not all that; "I'm not homo/transphobic!" Coming from a Christian leads to a whole lot of silence when other Christians, often invested with the powers of State, which very much are homophobic or transphobic.

Apathy gets people killed as much as bigotry.

I don't suspect every Christian to attack me on the street, but there does seem to be a correlation of heavily Christian governments organising and espousing for my disenfranchisement, and those same Christians doing nothing about it barring making the excuse they themselves aren't anti-LGBTQ. Nearly all Germans thought the Kristallnacht was a shameful display by German youth ... they thought it was awful, but didn't hold anyone accountable for it.

The problem with religion is it rarely asks its people to show ethical consistency ... a "I'm not personally anti-LGBTQ..." should be expected to follow through with a; "And I disagree with state powers and legislation being as used as such, regardless of religious contrivance, as a tool for another's systematic abuse and ailing their market participation on such grounds!"

That's how we avoid social tragedies in the first place. And I can certainly blame any Christian not willing to make that commitment to ethical consistency and basic human rights.

To put it bluntly, you can never be seen as to be moral if you cannot couch the terms of your ethics in the form of mutual respect for life and liberty. Ethics requires consistency, it shouldn't require a leap of faith to see why basic moral terms require moral equivalence as to agency and its inherent need for self-discipline.

The whole reason why Christians have overwhelmingly abandoned Leviticus is because living that way is awful. Why then would you expect others to grant the Bible any equivalency of respect in legislation or public praxis?

Incredibly sad fact: LGBTQ Germans were sent to concentration camps or mass executed. When the Allied Forces encountered said concentration camps for LGBTQ Germans they didn't liberate them ... they kept the people in them.

For fucking years.

How many German school history textbooks cover the subject? Precisely fuck all. How many British school history textbooks? You guessed it, zilch. French? Naught. American? Nada.

Apparently mass concentration of tortured people was A-Okay by Western military formations even in the aftermath of a wartorn and bankrupted Europe. Still gotta spend money to keep the tortured gays imprisoned!

History is depressing ... Or more so historical whitewashing, by pretending it didn't happen...

And yeah, we can blame religion for that too ... particularly as they the stoked the religious flames that made homosexuality deserving of a concentration camp, to be tortured in medical experimentation, to have testicles boiled off in water ...

Certainly takes the shine off the Allied 'liberation' of the concentration camps, right!? Apparently it was less 'liberating' and simply more re-institutionalized.

Saelune:
I call you a Trump supporter because you defend him when he is being blatantly racist. My biggest issue with you is your persistence that you arent a Trump supporter, yet defend him literally at every turn. Even this? Really? You're not even from the US. How many Trump supporters on this site are even from the US?

I have pointed out repeatedly I think that the comments were crass, elitist, classist and generally derogatory. My only quibble is that they aren't inherently racist.

I also don't think Trump's a lizardperson. Does that make me a Trump supporter too?

Catnip1024:
Yes, Egypt is all fun and games unless you are a Coptic Christian or any other persecuted minority. Then consider attitudes towards the LGBT community, general attitude towards women, and a lot of the North African coast is suddenly a hell of a lot fucking worse. Also, this is purely murder rate - I haven't looked at any wider crime statistics, because they become meaningless across jurisdictions due to reporting differences.

Sure, he bundled Africa up into a ball. But, as a rule, it pretty much works. People bundle Europe up into a collective all the damn time and nobody takes offence, yet somehow this one is inherently racist. K, so. Have fun.

Hey, you were the one using that metric to prove that the west was better than African countries. If they don't actually prove anything, can I kindly ask why you wasted my time with them? Also, attitudes towards women and the LGBT community? I'm sorry, I just gagged a little. Are you talking about negative attitudes towards women and the LGBT community in an attempt to defend Trump? I really hope you're being ironic here. Because I seriously doubt he gives a shit about the LGBT community and women being treated like shit. Because he treats them like shit.

A rule that you've done a piss poor job of proving. Mainly because when people bundle Europe all up together it's not to call it a shit hole. And even then, you're wrong, since people tend to divide Western Europe and Eastern Europe, and I've seen more than one Eastern European complain that they're stereotypes as being backwards and stupid compared to Western Europe, so should I just be writing a list of all the things you talk about despite the fact you are clearly not informed on the subject? Or would you prefer to hide your ignorance behind your passive aggressive comments?

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/951877385628078080

Looks like the comment might be fake news anyways.

Whitbane:
https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/951877385628078080

Looks like the comment might be fake news anyways.

That is one of the saddest attempts at damage control I think I've seen from Senate Republicans in awhile...

Sens. Tom Cotton and David Perdue:
"[W]e do not recall the President saying these comments specifically."

I mean they're not even outright denying he said it; instead they go with "we don't recall." Also, they use "these comments specifically" which PR-wise could mean Trump said it in a run-on sentence instead of the versions printed with punctuation or maybe said "fucking shithole" countries or whatever.

It is absolutely essential that we never think of the places in which we foment military coups and treat as the subservient periphery to our imperial core as 'shitholes'.

Seanchaidh:
It is absolutely essential that we never think of the places in which we foment military coups and treat as the subservient periphery to our imperial core as 'shitholes'.

I mean one might say that the first step towards not treating these countries as [insert your description here] would be to recognize them and their people as equals and therefore not "shitholes" to be looked down on and exploited?

I get the feeling that you're only angry about people criticizing Trump because of who those people are rather than what they're saying....

Seanchaidh:
It is absolutely essential that we never think of the places in which we foment military coups and treat as the subservient periphery to our imperial core as 'shitholes'.

who said anything about "think"? Stop over-extending this and moving the goalposts.

how dare people hold Trump up to the bar set by...the presidency. heaven forbid we get an adult in office who doesn't act like a spoiled child.

erttheking:
Hey, you were the one using that metric to prove that the west was better than African countries. If they don't actually prove anything, can I kindly ask why you wasted my time with them? Also, attitudes towards women and the LGBT community? I'm sorry, I just gagged a little. Are you talking about negative attitudes towards women and the LGBT community in an attempt to defend Trump? I really hope you're being ironic here. Because I seriously doubt he gives a shit about the LGBT community and women being treated like shit. Because he treats them like shit.

A rule that you've done a piss poor job of proving. Mainly because when people bundle Europe all up together it's not to call it a shit hole. And even then, you're wrong, since people tend to divide Western Europe and Eastern Europe, and I've seen more than one Eastern European complain that they're stereotypes as being backwards and stupid compared to Western Europe, so should I just be writing a list of all the things you talk about despite the fact you are clearly not informed on the subject? Or would you prefer to hide your ignorance behind your passive aggressive comments?

Well, first of all, my comment was so far from being passive aggressive that it's a joke.

Second, I wasn't proving that the West was better, I was proving that the named regions were statistically worse. I provided two individual statistical tables, which pretty heavily reinforced that, and you picked out an incredibly small number of exceptions. From one table - you picked out none from the other. Well done you.

Third, regardless of Trump, the US (and particularly the larger West as a whole) is overwhelmingly a better place for women and LGBT than Africa. Please don't lose all perspective with your little hate boner.

People divide the US by regions too, that doesn't make it impossible to speak about the US as a whole. People break up towns into areas to distinguish between the more or less affluent sides, that doesn't make it impossible to describe the town as a whole. Your point is flawed. But if you insist on going into it, if people were to refer to Eastern Europe as a shithole, it is nothing to do with race and heavily to do with poverty and the left-over consequences of the USSR years. Which kind of undermines your argument there.

Enough with the logical gymnastics to justify snarky comments - you have still not provided anything to suggest that Africa is just as nice a place to live as the US. Which is just as well, because if you did it would rather undermine the reason for a lot of immigration.

Catnip1024:
Enough with the logical gymnastics to justify snarky comments - you have still not provided anything to suggest that Africa is just as nice a place to live as the US. Which is just as well, because if you did it would rather undermine the reason for a lot of immigration.

The point is more that Trump has made clear that he thinks being from a shithole country makes you a shithole person who doesn't deserve a shot at American citizenship. Something that you are bizarrely insistent is not in the slightest bit racist.

Catnip1024:

Enough with the logical gymnastics

Yes, enough of that. I'm still waiting for someone of you who defends this statement to tell me why it matters that someone who wants a visa to the US comes from a "shithole" or what it tells us about a person in general that they come from a "shithole". That's still the pertinent question considering the remark was dropped concerning visa issues and it is one none of you have even attempted to answer yet, preferring to discuss the semantics about whether some countries actually are "shitholes" or not.

BeetleManiac:
The point is more that Trump has made clear that he thinks being from a shithole country makes you a shithole person who doesn't deserve a shot at American citizenship. Something that you are bizarrely insistent is not in the slightest bit racist.

It isn't. It's elitist. The idea is that if you come from a shit place you are more likely to be a shit person. It's inaccurate, judgemental and incredibly ignorant, but not racist.

Gethsemani:
Yes, enough of that. I'm still waiting for someone of you who defends this statement to tell me why it matters that someone who wants a visa to the US comes from a "shithole" or what it tells us about a person in general that they come from a "shithole". That's still the pertinent question considering the remark was dropped concerning visa issues and it is one none of you have even attempted to answer yet, preferring to discuss the semantics about whether some countries actually are "shitholes" or not.

It doesn't. I'm not defending US immigration policy or Trump's particular take on it. The thing that should matter for immigration would be personal qualifications along with whatever agreements are in place between the relevant nations.

There is potentially an argument that allowing people in from troublesome areas spreads trouble - consider the Mafia and Italian immigrants in the previous century, as an off the top of the head example - but that's not one I care to go into, because that's not my issue here.

And if we are being accurate, my discussion was on the semantics of whether calling a country a shithole was inherently racist. I wasn't wanting to have to judge anywhere. I mean, FFS, Haiti has gone through enough shit as it is without being made into a political football.

Catnip1024:

And if we are being accurate, my discussion was on the semantics of whether calling a country a shithole was inherently racist. I wasn't wanting to have to judge anywhere. I mean, FFS, Haiti has gone through enough shit as it is without being made into a political football.

Which could be a worthwhile discussion I think. The problem is, however, that the way and situation in which Trump dropped the remark makes it abundantly clear that it is racist in that context. This is especially true when put in the context of his prior comments about all Haitian immigrants to the US having AIDS and Nigerians refusing to "go back to their huts". Hence defending his use of that term becomes an implicit (if unintended) endorsement of that racism.

Catnip1024:
It isn't. It's elitist. The idea is that if you come from a shit place you are more likely to be a shit person. It's inaccurate, judgemental and incredibly ignorant, but not racist.

Why exactly is it so important to you that we not identify it as racist? Does it not matter that it's Trump saying it? Yes, it's classist, but are you unaware of the fact that race and class are often joined at the hip? Are racism and elitism mutually exclusive? Is the assertion that all Haitians of AIDS and Nigerians all live in mud huts also somehow not racist? Who the hell are you that you get to decide for everybody else what is and is not racist? Multiple African nations have condemned Trump's remarks as racist in the context of his past statements/behavior and his consistent nature as a person. Are they wrong and need you to tell them what is and is not racist? Why do you get to decide?

Catnip1024:
It isn't. It's elitist. The idea is that if you come from a shit place you are more likely to be a shit person. It's inaccurate, judgemental and incredibly ignorant, but not racist.

You seem very determined to ignore the context of Trump's remarks.

Sure; if some blank slate person said what Trump said, I might be generous and interpret their statement as one of mere elitism and not outright racism. But this is not a blank slate. This is Donald Trump.

Donald Trump once asked a Korean-American intelligence analyst - who was giving him a security briefing on Pakistan at the time - why she wasn't negotiating with North Korea instead. When he met with the Congressional Black Caucus, he was surprised to learn that none of them knew Ben Carson personally. When a caucus member told him that not all welfare recipients were black, he reportedly said "Really? Then what are they?"

When Donald Trump was questioned on why he hadn't made a statement on the deaths of four US soldiers in Niger, he proceeded to pick a fight with the family of one of the dead soldiers. Guess which family it was. He's riled up rallies by saying that black NFL players who kneel during the anthem to protest police brutality should be fired. When he came back from China recently, he claimed that he'd personally arranged the release of a black athlete caught shoplifting, and that the athlete hadn't apologised to him yet; when they did apologise, he picked a fight with the athlete's father and called him an ungrateful fool.

I could keep listening anecdotes all day. But do I have to? This is a guy who announced his campaign by talking up the threat of Mexican rapists. He accused a federal judge who was born in the US of being biased against him because they were Hispanic. (Paul fricking Ryan called it "the textbook definition of a racist comment"!) He dragged his feet for nearly two weeks sending emergency support to Puerto Rico after it was flattened in a hurricane, gave it a tenth of the emergency funding he gave to Texas, picked a fight with the mayor of San Juan, and the island now has the honour of hosting the longest blackout in US history. Shit, I just kept listing anecdotes, didn't I?

Look, Donald Trump is a racist. He's a cranky old racist man. When he says he'd rather accept immigrants from a good country like Norway than a shithole country like Haiti, he's being racist. Like - you'd have to be spectacularly myopic to not read that as a racist comment. This is a guy with a long history of racism, racist statements and racist behaviour, saying "we don't want Haitian immigrants, we want Norwegians."

How is that not racist?

undeadsuitor:

who said anything about "think"? Stop over-extending this and moving the goalposts.

how dare people hold Trump up to the bar set by...the presidency. heaven forbid we get an adult in office who doesn't act like a spoiled child.

I think the point is that the bar hasn't been set by the Presidency. Past Presidents have been willing to treat these countries abominably-- they just haven't used the language.

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
Hey, you were the one using that metric to prove that the west was better than African countries. If they don't actually prove anything, can I kindly ask why you wasted my time with them? Also, attitudes towards women and the LGBT community? I'm sorry, I just gagged a little. Are you talking about negative attitudes towards women and the LGBT community in an attempt to defend Trump? I really hope you're being ironic here. Because I seriously doubt he gives a shit about the LGBT community and women being treated like shit. Because he treats them like shit.

A rule that you've done a piss poor job of proving. Mainly because when people bundle Europe all up together it's not to call it a shit hole. And even then, you're wrong, since people tend to divide Western Europe and Eastern Europe, and I've seen more than one Eastern European complain that they're stereotypes as being backwards and stupid compared to Western Europe, so should I just be writing a list of all the things you talk about despite the fact you are clearly not informed on the subject? Or would you prefer to hide your ignorance behind your passive aggressive comments?

Well, first of all, my comment was so far from being passive aggressive that it's a joke.

Second, I wasn't proving that the West was better, I was proving that the named regions were statistically worse. I provided two individual statistical tables, which pretty heavily reinforced that, and you picked out an incredibly small number of exceptions. From one table - you picked out none from the other. Well done you.

Third, regardless of Trump, the US (and particularly the larger West as a whole) is overwhelmingly a better place for women and LGBT than Africa. Please don't lose all perspective with your little hate boner.

People divide the US by regions too, that doesn't make it impossible to speak about the US as a whole. People break up towns into areas to distinguish between the more or less affluent sides, that doesn't make it impossible to describe the town as a whole. Your point is flawed. But if you insist on going into it, if people were to refer to Eastern Europe as a shithole, it is nothing to do with race and heavily to do with poverty and the left-over consequences of the USSR years. Which kind of undermines your argument there.

Enough with the logical gymnastics to justify snarky comments - you have still not provided anything to suggest that Africa is just as nice a place to live as the US. Which is just as well, because if you did it would rather undermine the reason for a lot of immigration.

Please tell me more about "k so have fun" isn't passive aggressive.

"I wasn't proving that the west was better, I was proving that the named regions were statistically worse." Uh. Ok. I'm sure you think that those two are somehow different, but I think you're going to have to explain to the rest of us, because, from where I'm standing, they sound exactly the same. And with those statistical exceptions, you then said that the murder rate didn't matter because of other factors, which, as far as I'm concerned, completely invalidated you bringing them up because apparently they only matter when they're convenient to you.

And I never said that the West wasn't better, don't let your desire to win the argument let you forget what I actually said. It's just that I find it kind of rich that you're using treatment of women and LGBT people to defend TRUMP.

Someone who clearly doesn't give a shit about either group, so you bringing it up when we're talking about what he said is pretty fucking rich.

And when the tendency to stereotype makes those stereotypes more accurate you can call me. Now, see, you probably feel like you made a point there, but you really didn't. You were talking about how people stereotyped all of Europe, I said that they divided Europe up, you said they stereotyped Eastern Europe. Except you forgot a key part of the discussion, where you said no one took offense about people stereotyping Europe, when I had talked about Eastern Europeans who HATED being stereotyped. Are you forgetting your own arguments?

"Enough of the logical gymnastics to justify snarky comments" Practice what you preach buddy. My entire point was that Trump was pretty damn racist to lump all of Africa into one ball. You acting like there are statisics to show that Africa is, on average, not as good as the United States (Which we both fucking know Trump didn't look at because the man was running for President of the United States and he didn't even know what the nuclear triad is) makes it totally not racist...because reasons. Even though I quoted another user that showed Trump being pretty fucking racist towards people from one of the countries Trump talked about.

Why do you need this to not be racist, huh? Walk me through that one, I don't freaking get it.

Gethsemani:
snip

BeetleManiac:
snip

bastardofmelbourne:
snip

Guys, I'm not saying that Trump isn't a racist or a bigot. His previous statements make it quite clear that he is. My issue is that you can't say "this statement is racist because he has made previous racist statements". No. He is racist because he has made previous racist statements. This statement is not necessarily or implicitly racist.

At the end of the day it is largely irrelevant and just quibbling, but it becomes relevant when people try and make this the prevailing media message. No - point out the actual clear cut batshit crazy things he says, and don't make any leaps of logic. Because he provides enough bridges that you generally don't have to.

erttheking:
Why do you need this to not be racist, huh? Walk me through that one, I don't freaking get it.

Why do you need it to be, when there is plenty enough stuff that Trump has actually said that is actually racist you can paint him with?

I am defending the phrase shithole here, because it's a good honest phrase with no racial aspects to it at all.

Catnip1024:
Guys, I'm not saying that Trump isn't a racist or a bigot.

No, that's pretty much exactly what you're saying. The tone policing is getting really old and nobody is buying into the idea that you know better than everyone else, including the targets of Trump's racism, what is and is not racism. We're connecting the dots of Trump's behavior and actions to draw the conclusion that he's a racist piece of shit saying racist shit. We're crossing the bridges he has provided, and you're the one insisting that we're not crossing these bridges the correct (i.e. your) way.

Catnip1024:
I am defending the phrase shithole here, because it's a good honest phrase with no racial aspects to it at all.

And we're saying that the context Trump used it in was a very racist context because he's a fucking racist. "Dinge" isn't an inherently racist term either, but when used to describe a black person it's actually a slur. "Frog" is not an inherently racist word, but it is when used to describe somebody who is French. "Nip" does not have to be a racist term unless you're using it to describe a Japanese person. There are Jewish people who sometimes refer to themselves as Heebs, but when a Klansman says it the tone goes from jocular self-reference to a more sinister pejorative. As it turns out, context is pretty damn important.

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
Why do you need this to not be racist, huh? Walk me through that one, I don't freaking get it.

Why do you need it to be, when there is plenty enough stuff that Trump has actually said that is actually racist you can paint him with?

I am defending the phrase shithole here, because it's a good honest phrase with no racial aspects to it at all.

I don't need it to be, it just is. Other people have gone into great detail how it is. And are you doing the thing where you ignore 90% of my post? Does that mean you concede all those points?

Dude, shithole itself doesn't have any racist connotations, but using it to describe all of Africa is pretty racist. Kind of like how the term mud hut isn't racist, but implying that a black person lives in one is pretty fucking racist. Kind of like how chink isn't racist when you're describing a chink in armor, but it's pretty damn racist when you're talking about a Chinese person.

BeetleManiac:
No, that's pretty much exactly what you're saying. The tone policing is getting really old and nobody is buying into the idea that you know better than everyone else, including the targets of Trump's racism, what is and is not racism.

Yet we're all supposed to buy into your idea of what is and what isn't?

Seriously, think what you like. I'm just pointing out the fact that a narrative of "calling a place a shithole is racist" is going to lose people. I personally disagree with it.

And we're saying that the context Trump used it in was a very racist context because he's a fucking racist. "Dinge" isn't an inherently racist term either, but when used to describe a black person it's actually a slur. "Frog" is not an inherently racist word, but it is when used to describe somebody who is French. "Nip" does not have to be a racist term unless you're using it to describe a Japanese person. There are Jewish people who sometimes refer to themselves as Heebs, but when a Klansman says it the tone goes from jocular self-reference to a more sinister pejorative. As it turns out, context is pretty damn important.

Except shithole refers not to people but to places. I mean, if you wanted to be racially derogatory about Africa, I'm pretty sure there are dozens of better remarks you could come up with.

erttheking:
And are you doing the thing where you ignore 90% of my post? Does that mean you concede all those points?

No, I'm doing the thing where I get fed up of regurgitating the same points. Your tone isn't really indicating that there is much in the way of useful discussion to be had here. I'm moving on.

If you want to go off and think you've "won", so be it. Enjoy the warm fuzzy feeling.

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
And are you doing the thing where you ignore 90% of my post? Does that mean you concede all those points?

No, I'm doing the thing where I get fed up of regurgitating the same points. Your tone isn't really indicating that there is much in the way of useful discussion to be had here. I'm moving on.

If you want to go off and think you've "won", so be it. Enjoy the warm fuzzy feeling.

I'm sorry, we're talking about tone now? Do you really want to go down that road?

So much for not being passive aggressive. But I will consider myself the winner here. Not because you didn't reply, but because you offered up jack shit as a response, even when I pointed out massive holes in your reasoning.

I look forward to the next thread about Trump, where you will doubtless be defending him and/or downplaying what he said/did, again, despite the fact you apparently don't support him.

erttheking:
And hey, let's look at the ones that have murder rates where the United States has HIGHER murder rates. Niger, Libya, S?o Tom? and Pr?ncipe, freaking Somalia(which also has a lower murder rate than freaking Canada) Egypt, Tunisia (Which has a lower murder rate than the United Kingdom), Algeria and Morocco.

Er, let's face it, Somalia does not have a lower murder rate than Canada.

The crime statistics of countries with relatively disorganised / patchy police forces and law enforcement are necessarily going to be considerable underestimates. In some cases, countries may deliberately falsify prevalence of certain types of crime, where they feel it paints them in an unflattering light.

It is plausible that Tunisia has a lower murder rate than the UK, for instance; I just wouldn't necessarily rely on Tunisian crime statistics as proof of the point.

Agema:

erttheking:
And hey, let's look at the ones that have murder rates where the United States has HIGHER murder rates. Niger, Libya, S?o Tom? and Pr?ncipe, freaking Somalia(which also has a lower murder rate than freaking Canada) Egypt, Tunisia (Which has a lower murder rate than the United Kingdom), Algeria and Morocco.

Er, let's face it, Somalia does not have a lower murder rate than Canada.

The crime statistics of countries with relatively disorganised / patchy police forces and law enforcement are necessarily going to be considerable underestimates. In some cases, countries may deliberately falsify prevalence of certain types of crime, where they feel it paints them in an unflattering light.

It is plausible that Tunisia has a lower murder rate than the UK, for instance; I just wouldn't necessarily rely on Tunisian crime statistics as proof of the point.

Hey, he's the one that pointed out those statistics like they meant something. If he wants to use that source like it means something, he can't just cherry pick the statistics he likes. I'm was just pointing out everything else he would have to accept if he really wants to use that source to prove a point.

Catnip1024:
Yet we're all supposed to buy into your idea of what is and what isn't?

It ain't just my idea. A lot of people with more credibility than you pretend to have are saying it too. Jon Lewis, the civil rights hero has said it is. Do you really think you know racism better than a civil rights icon? The countries he insulted have called him a racist. You think you know better than they do?

Let's get even more specific. Trump said specifically that he doesn't want people from "those countries" to come here and start a new life. He only wants people from stable, peaceful, highly developed nations like Norway. I have a pretty large swath of ancestors from different parts of Europe who came to the US looking to make a new life because at that time living in their countries of birth sucked balls. They weren't doctors or architects or business moguls. They were laborers.

My great-grandfather on my father's side fled Europe as a draft dodger, refusing to fight and die in a war he didn't support. He was smuggled into the US as an illegal immigrant and started a family working in a coal mine. One day, he say my grandfather playing hooky from school. He hit him so hard it knocked the young man over and into a gutter. He told him that he better get an education because he didn't want to see his children destroying their bodies and minds working in a mine their whole lives. My grandfather went on to become a lit professor.

So let's be really fucking clear here. It's not just that Trump lacks the humility, tact and diplomacy to not openly shit talk countries that we're supposed to be allies of. We've known for years how much of a bigoted goblin he is. It's the fact that he has made it clear that he doesn't want their people because coming from a shithole country, in his mind, makes you a shithole person and that is not an acceptable policy for the guy who is supposed to be leading us.

If you don't want refugees and immigrants to have a second chance at life as your neighbors, it's not because those people are bad people. It's because you are.

Seriously, think what you like. I'm just pointing out the fact that a narrative of "calling a place a shithole is racist" is going to lose people. I personally disagree with it.

Ever read MLK's Letter from Birmingham Jail? Because that is textbook White Moderate talk. And hey, speaking of losing people, you want to talk about the optics of a white British man telling people of color that he understands better than they do what discrimination against them is and isn't?

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