Aziz Ansari - Accused of Sexual Misconduct; Guilty of not being a mindreader

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evilthecat:

Fischgopf:
And with the slightest change this goes straight to absolutely bigoted. Know why? Because it already was bigoted. This shit shouldn't be tolerated, reported.

I love how you all think it's a big gotcha to change things I said and then act like it's some radical truth bomb to point out that the meaning of said things changes as well.

Besides, I've seen enough of how a significant proportion of white people act around black men to have figured out that it's apparently perfectly socially acceptable to be afraid of them. Heck, isn't this literally the legal defence every time someone shoots a young black man, and yet it seems to work well enough for those people, doesn't it.

But hey, just imagine if you put as much effort into calling out men who make women afraid, as you put into calling out women (and me) for being justifiably afraid of them.

The problem is that nothing about your statement changes. It can easily be argued that it is reasonible to be afraid of black men, that doesn't mean it isn't bigoted behavior. So, if you don't like be called out on being a bigot, why don't you try simply not being a bigot?

Warhound:

So its ok for you to have a phobia of straight men but its not ok for them to have a phobia of black men? Even though straight and black are exactly the same in the fact that both are beyond the person's control?

The difference is that straight men make up somewhere in the ballpark of 90-98% of sexual offenders, whereas black men are only slightly over-represented in violent crimes statistics and that over representation is all but eliminated once you account for socioeconomic factors known to affect crime.

Most straight men are not sex offenders, but almost all sex offenders are straight men. Thus it is only reasonable to be vary of straight men when you come in contact with one and they might think sexual activities are on the table. If you will, not all snakes are venomous, but many are. If you encounter a wild snake that you don't recognize when you are out walking, would you really go up to it and pet it because it might be a grass snake and not a pit viper? Or would you be wary of it and try to avoid it fangs?

Fischgopf:

"May I rub your clitoris in a circular manner at this current point in time?" is not sexy talk.

Two things:
A) That's bad sexy talk, but no one in a sexual situation is going to talk like that anyway. "I want to eat you out" gets the point across just as well and feels far more natural to say in such a situation. You don't need to adopt a turn of the century Victorian tone just because you want to ensure consent.
B) Talking things through before hand can be pretty good foreplay, especially with someone you don't know. You both get a feeling of anticipation and excitement about what's going to happen and both (or all of you in case of more people) get a chance to set boundaries and express wishes.

Nice to see all the man haters are out to town. Care to elaborate how "we're not sexist, we just think that males are naturally sexual harrasers" is different from "we're not racist, we just think that afro american are natural criminals"?

Warhound:
So its ok for you to have a phobia of straight men but its not ok for them to have a phobia of black men?

Yeah, that's about right.

I mean, I don't routinely run into black men who leap to the defence of other black men even when they do horrible shit because they feel threatened about their own ability to do what they want. I'm sure those people exist, but sorry, I don't see them.

Look, what's really shitty about this case isn't that Aziz is an abuser, it's that he's clearly learned and absorbed exactly where he has to stop in order to not break the law. He knows exactly how far he can push a woman, how much he can take advantage of her before it becomes criminal, and this isn't uncommon. I've grown up with stories like this from my female friends about guys they've met or dated. Heck, I've seen guys do this. This isn't something which just a few guys do, although perhaps only a few will take it this far, it's fundamentally symptomatic of how the vast majority of straight men have been taught to think about sex. That's why we've got people getting upset about how "scary" this is, that's why we get ridiculous shit about having to ask for consent every 5 minutes.

You all know about consent. You all know how it works, even if you feign ignorance. Most of you know exactly how far you can go before it crosses a line where you can be held accountable. What you want (figurative you), if you're "scared" or acting like this is a big impediment to your sex life, is the ability to do exactly the same thing Aziz did, to push women who don't want to have sex with you into doing so and to get away with it because you didn't cross an arbitrary line into the rape zone.

Go back to the article posted in the OP. Notice that Bari Weiss isn't saying "well, that doesn't happen to me" or "I don't believe her, no man would ever do this". She's saying "yes, this has happened to me. It happens to every woman. It's commonplace and trivial." Weiss comes to the conclusion that "and therefore it isn't that bad". Well, I disagree, it fucking sucks. Your broken sexual culture sucks, and I'm sick of it hurting people I care about and dehumanising people I could care about if they weren't dangerous to be around.

Again, you can get angry at me for pointing it out, or you can get angry at the people who perpetuate it. You can even do both if you want, I don't care, just do something other than leap to the defence of the indefensible, please.

Gethsemani:

Warhound:

So its ok for you to have a phobia of straight men but its not ok for them to have a phobia of black men? Even though straight and black are exactly the same in the fact that both are beyond the person's control?

The difference is that straight men make up somewhere in the ballpark of 90-98% of sexual offenders, whereas black men are only slightly over-represented in violent crimes statistics and that over representation is all but eliminated once you account for socioeconomic factors known to affect crime.

So we are going to excuse social factors that make up the over representation of black men being over-represented in crime statistics, but we are going to completely ignore the social factors that cause men to not come forward when they are the victims of sexual abuse hm? Convenient that.

evilthecat:

Warhound:
So its ok for you to have a phobia of straight men but its not ok for them to have a phobia of black men?

Yeah, that's about right.

I mean, I don't routinely run into black men who leap to the defence of other black men even when they do horrible shit because they feel threatened about their own ability to do what they want. I'm sure those people exist, but sorry, I don't see them.

Well, to each their own I guess.

This may come down, admittedly, to how social media and algorithms feed us things that they think we wanna see. I see it fairly often on my feeds.

Again, you can get angry at me for pointing it out, or you can get angry at the people who perpetuate it. You can even do both if you want, I don't care, just do something other than leap to the defence of the indefensible, please.

Im not angry at you, I just call out bigotry when I see it. I also didn't defend Aziz, I called him an abuser in my very first post, and I think he is a scumbag.

It sounds like nothing more than a bad date, tbh.

Warhound:

So we are going to excuse social factors that make up the over representation of black men being over-represented in crime statistics, but we are going to completely ignore the social factors that cause men to not come forward when they are the victims of sexual abuse hm? Convenient that.

As I said, the difference is that you can clearly see that poverty, lack of education, substance abuse, etc. clearly skews the numbers when it comes to violent crime and accounting for that means that black people are no more crime prone then white people (or any other group).

But even with men's reluctance to report sexual abuse, men still clock in at 90% or more of all sexual abusers. Even if we take the most controversial, least likely numbers we end up with 75%+ of sexual abusers being men, the actual number most likely being closer to the 90%+ that's commonly found.

I don't particularly hate or fear men, but I also know that every person who's ever sexually harassed me, groped me or worse has been a man. That's a pattern I'm not alone of suffering and the consistent insistence that talking about men's problematic attitude towards women's bodies and sexual abuse is somehow bigoted grows old very quickly.

Gethsemani:

Fischgopf:

"May I rub your clitoris in a circular manner at this current point in time?" is not sexy talk.

Two things:
A) That's bad sexy talk, but no one in a sexual situation is going to talk like that anyway. "I want to eat you out" gets the point across just as well and feels far more natural to say in such a situation. You don't need to adopt a turn of the century Victorian tone just because you want to ensure consent.
B) Talking things through before hand can be pretty good foreplay, especially with someone you don't know. You both get a feeling of anticipation and excitement about what's going to happen and both (or all of you in case of more people) get a chance to set boundaries and express wishes.

I'm just gonna keep this short and say that I disagree with you and that you sound like a incredibly boring sex partner.

Gethsemani:

Warhound:

So we are going to excuse social factors that make up the over representation of black men being over-represented in crime statistics, but we are going to completely ignore the social factors that cause men to not come forward when they are the victims of sexual abuse hm? Convenient that.

As I said, the difference is that you can clearly see that poverty, lack of education, substance abuse, etc. clearly skews the numbers when it comes to violent crime and accounting for that means that black people are no more crime prone then white people (or any other group).

But even with men's reluctance to report sexual abuse, men still clock in at 90% or more of all sexual abusers. Even if we take the most controversial, least likely numbers we end up with 75%+ of sexual abusers being men, the actual number most likely being closer to the 90%+ that's commonly found.

I don't particularly hate or fear men, but I also know that every person who's ever sexually harassed me, groped me or worse has been a man. That's a pattern I'm not alone of suffering and the consistent insistence that talking about men's problematic attitude towards women's bodies and sexual abuse is somehow bigoted grows old very quickly.

How are we calculating the number of people that don't come forward? How do we know how many there are if they don't talk about it? Are the numbers just made up on the spot?

And is it REALLY that surprising that the majority of people who have harassed you are men when over 94% of the population is straight? Do you expect all them straight women who have no interest in you to start harassing you or groping you? No they will harass and grope and shit the people who interest them: Men. Does that not connect?

Paragon Fury:
And personally, as bad as this is; imagine how goddamn terrifying this is to read for someone socially awkward or a bit weird (IE: someone like me).

That men might be held (somewhat) accountable for their actions? That people will say things on the net if they do things to women without consent?

Yeah, anyone terrified of that is a terror to everyone else.

If you are worried that you'll get in trouble for doing something to a woman without her consent, don't do things to her without her consent. Also, do that even if you aren't worried, for other reasons. If you don't know if she's consenting, find out, or don't assume she is.

In no way is this hard. This is not some terrible burden being placed on men, it's the requirement to act like an adult living in a society of equals.

Warhound:

How are we calculating the number of people that don't come forward? How do we know how many there are if they don't talk about it? Are the numbers just made up on the spot?

And is it REALLY that surprising that the majority of people who have harassed you are men when over 94% of the population is straight? Do you expect all them straight women who have no interest in you to start harassing you or groping you? No they will harass and grope and shit the people who interest them: Men. Does that not connect?

I'd be a lot more inclined to have this discussion if you actually were up to date on the research. I've had it well over a dozen times on this board alone and I honestly don't have the energy to go through the basics of sexual assault statistics again. It is out there, it ain't hard to find but I'm not the one who's going to tell you about it. If you want to learn, just use google, you'll find a bunch of government and NGO links soon enough.

Gethsemani:

Warhound:

How are we calculating the number of people that don't come forward? How do we know how many there are if they don't talk about it? Are the numbers just made up on the spot?

And is it REALLY that surprising that the majority of people who have harassed you are men when over 94% of the population is straight? Do you expect all them straight women who have no interest in you to start harassing you or groping you? No they will harass and grope and shit the people who interest them: Men. Does that not connect?

I'd be a lot more inclined to have this discussion if you actually were up to date on the research. I've had it well over a dozen times on this board alone and I honestly don't have the energy to go through the basics of sexual assault statistics again. It is out there, it ain't hard to find but I'm not the one who's going to tell you about it. If you want to learn, just use google, you'll find a bunch of government and NGO links soon enough.

Sorry but no. Its not on me to find statistics you are quoting. If you are tired, go get some sleep and we can have this debate properly in the morning when you can provide sources and citations for your claims.

Yeah, I heard about that yesterday from a pair of articles on the Atlantic.

I don't know Aziz Ansari at all, but it really just seems like it was a bad date. It would be a bit of a stretch to call it even misconduct, and sexual harassment is...look, the line is fuzzy, but I like to think that most people can all tell the difference between bad sex and sexual harassment. This is the former.

And as much as everyone in this thread is keen to revive the old gender-war arguments...they're not appropriate here. This isn't a story with a clear villain and victim. To the extent that it's useful to the whole #MeToo discussion, it's as an example of how important solid communication is for people to enjoy sex, and how poor communication can leave one party feeling humiliated or disgusted. It's a lot like Cat Person, in that regard.

Sex can turn from something you really want to do to something you really don't want to do alarmingly quickly. I think that once a sexual encounter starts, or once consent is given - verbally or non-verbally - then the onus is on the partner that wants the sex to stop to actually say stop. Because the other partner isn't likely to stop if they think they still have consent.

That doesn't mean dudes should be assuming consent, because that's a one-way ticket to Rape Town, but I think once you're at the stage where mutual oral sex is involved, consent is sort of basically given. At that point the person who wants it to stop really has to speak out and say "no, this isn't fun." And if you're Aziz Ansari or any other dude who is reasonably self-conscious about consent, chances are the instant you hear "no" or "stop," you're going to stop.

Addendum: I see a lot of people elsewhere making a lot out of the fingers-in-the-mouth thing, like in a 'this is the proof that he's just a creep' way. I'll admit, it does sound gross to anyone who doesn't find the prospect of having digits in their mouth to be sexy at all. But honestly, people have different kinks. I had a girlfriend once who got turned on when I bit her ear. I later had sex with a girl who thought it was weird and didn't say anything. I also had sex with a girl who was like "ow, what the fuck," and I went "sorry, I'll stop doing that." People are turned on by different things. Some people like having fingers in their mouth, some like being bitten, some like being spanked, some just want to grab a pretty-looking foot and do their best Tarantino impression all over it. All of it probably seems gross and/or inexplicable to a certain percentage of onlookers who don't share that kink. But good sex, especially on a first date, is about having good communication, so that you can make it clear what's hot and what's not and hopefully possess the self-control to steer away from the not-hots.

I will admit, I have never had good sex with a person on the first try. It always took a couple of nights of fumbling and experimenting before I got a grip - so to speak - on what they liked. The one-night-stands I've had in my life have been shitty without exception. More than anything else, that's what this story highlighted for me. Sometimes, people will have bad sex, and when they are having bad sex, it is important to communicate about it.

Second addendum: Just to be clear, I'm not blaming "Grace" or trying to exculpate Ansari. Or vice-versa. I think what happened here was fundamentally a failure of communication, and to the extent that it was anyone's fault it was the fault of both parties. Failures of communication usually are.

There's a valuable discussion about the extent to which cultural attitudes towards sex and flirting are to blame for the dysfunction, and that's what I think the focus should be on, not on whether Ansari is a hypocritical sleazebag rapist or the victim of a revenge porn witch hunt.

So, a disillusioned groupie collaborates with a hack to publish revenge porn? Damn that's sordid, even for my tastes. Good thing I don't have to defend a flame-forged douche dreadnaught (am I doing it right?) like Mr. Ansari, as he is so clearly the wronged party here.

bastardofmelbourne:

I will admit, I have never had good sex with a person on the first try.

I don't think very many people ever have. Certainly not myself.

Part of the reason I find the hookup culture kinda weird "so you two are leaving the party to go fumble drunkenly at one another, have a probable 3 minutes of intercourse followed by awkward hours of pretending to be asleep?......um Have fun? I think instead I'll go to bed and tomorrow ask the girl at the used bookstore to go get coffee and see a monster movie."

In any case, this really puts that "creepy dudes" episode of Master of None in a whole other light.

inu-kun:
Nice to see all the man haters are out to town. Care to elaborate how "we're not sexist, we just think that males are naturally sexual harrasers" is different from "we're not racist, we just think that afro american are natural criminals"?

Just fucking stop. There are people in this thread acting like making sure you have consent is an impossible thing to do when it fucking isn't. People don't act like Black people commit crimes because they didn't know it was a crime and they just lost control for a bit, I don't know why things suddenly change when sex is involved.

Fischgopf:

erttheking:
Why is it so fucking hard for some people to wrap their heads around the idea of not being a creep and talking things over? Talking things over is not a hard thing to do! FFS. This is a very, VERY, simple concept!

Because that's not how Sex actually works, so yes, it actually is a hard thing to make work in practice. Yeah, it's a simple idea...just one that is very ignorant of how Sex generally works.

evilthecat:
I don't hate black men, I fear them, as any sane person should.

And with the slightest change this goes straight to absolutely bigoted. Know why? Because it already was bigoted. This shit shouldn't be tolerated, reported.

You think talking things over before hand are hard things to do? Taking a minute to figure things out is not how sex works? Here?s an idea, sit down before you head back to where you?re going to screw. It doesn?t seem that hard.

Also I seriously doubt anyone gives a shit that you think they may be a boring sex partner. Seriously what the FUCK was that?

erttheking:

There are people in this thread acting like making sure you have consent is an impossible thing to do when it fucking isn?t.

No, but there are people acting like refusing is impossible to do. She was "trying to communicate through negative body language" or something to that effect... while fellating him, for crying out loud.

What happened here was that a young woman chased a celebrity, possibly dreaming of Le Epic Romance. Instead, she ended up blowing him, twice, and exiting when it became clear that sex all he was in it for. That is, she consented to doing it, by doing it.

StatusNil:

erttheking:

There are people in this thread acting like making sure you have consent is an impossible thing to do when it fucking isn?t.

No, but there are people acting like refusing is impossible to do. She was "trying to communicate through negative body language" or something to that effect... while fellating him, for crying out loud.

What happened here was that a young woman chased a celebrity, possibly dreaming of Le Epic Romance. Instead, she ended up blowing him, twice, and exiting when it became clear that sex all he was in it for. That is, she consented to doing it, by doing it.

That's also something I want to know. How is her sucking him off (twice!) not giving consent? How is her getting naked with him not giving consent?

Taishakuten:
That's also something I want to know. How is her sucking him off (twice!) not giving consent? How is her getting naked with him not giving consent?

evilthecat already covered this in the 22nd post in this thread, but consent to what? Consenting to some things does not automatically mean consenting to others.

Taishakuten:

That's also something I want to know. How is her sucking him off (twice!) not giving consent? How is her getting naked with him not giving consent?

Imagine you invite me for a cup of tea, so I drink your tea and we have a good time, so you offer me some cake to go with it. Then, while we are eating cake I start rummaging through your fridge and get all the ingredients out for a three course meal and start cooking it. When you tell me to stop and that you didn't intend for me to take all your food I turn to you and say "But you gave me tea and cake, I thought you consented to me eating your food".

It is actually simple: If you kiss someone you are consenting to kissing them. If you perform fellatio you consent to fellatio. The base assumption of consent is always that someone is consenting to the action taking place right now (drinking tea/kissing) and that to escalate (eating cake/fellatio) both parties must consent to escalation. Just because you consent to giving a beggar a buck or two doesn't mean you consent to them taking your car.

Thaluikhain:

evilthecat already covered this in the 22nd post in this thread, but consent to what? Consenting to some things does not automatically mean consenting to others.

Are we talking about things that didn't happen now?

Gethsemani:

It is actually simple: If you kiss someone you are consenting to kissing them. If you perform fellatio you consent to fellatio. The base assumption of consent is always that someone is consenting to the action taking place right now (drinking tea/kissing) and that to escalate (eating cake/fellatio) both parties must consent to escalation. Just because you consent to giving a beggar a buck or two doesn't mean you consent to them taking your car.

So Ansari did nothing wrong, because he stopped the moment she said no

erttheking:

inu-kun:
Nice to see all the man haters are out to town. Care to elaborate how "we're not sexist, we just think that males are naturally sexual harrasers" is different from "we're not racist, we just think that afro american are natural criminals"?

Just fucking stop. There are people in this thread acting like making sure you have consent is an impossible thing to do when it fucking isn?t.

For the first two years or so of my current relationship (of nearly seven) I never got express consent to have sex with my partner as far as I can remember. Even then asking for sex in later years was really more of a suggestion than asking for consent.
So does that make me a rapist? Because that's basically what this comes down to. I mean I guess you could say that the fact we stayed together is consent in itself but if I follow the logic in this thread she might have felt pressured or forced to do so somehow. So theres a strong case that could be made that my partner and myself have been raping each other for years and we were none-the-wiser.

For the record both myself and my non-consenting partner thinks Aziz was just an awkward guy trying to come off as confident and aggressive, which some women like. So like some others said, it was a bad date and crossed wires. It just happened at a bad time in terms of publicity.

Here Comes Tomorrow:

erttheking:

inu-kun:
Nice to see all the man haters are out to town. Care to elaborate how "we're not sexist, we just think that males are naturally sexual harrasers" is different from "we're not racist, we just think that afro american are natural criminals"?

Just fucking stop. There are people in this thread acting like making sure you have consent is an impossible thing to do when it fucking isn?t.

For the first two years or so of my current relationship (of nearly seven) I never got express consent to have sex with my partner as far as I can remember. Even then asking for sex in later years was really more of a suggestion than asking for consent.
So does that make me a rapist? Because that's basically what this comes down to. I mean I guess you could say that the fact we stayed together is consent in itself but if I follow the logic in this thread she might have felt pressured or forced to do so somehow. So theres a strong case that could be made that my partner and myself have been raping each other for years and we were none-the-wiser.

For the record both myself and my non-consenting partner thinks Aziz was just an awkward guy trying to come off as confident and aggressive, which some women like. So like some others said, it was a bad date and crossed wires. It just happened at a bad time in terms of publicity.

It sounds to me like you two have been together long enough to be able to read cues on each other, which is what happens when people are together long enough. I mean, I'm going to imagine you both got a feel for what the other wants and doesn't want and that you didn't just spontaneous slap together to have sex one day and then never looked back. Not really the same situation as this whole mess. I mean, I'm going to take a guess that if your partner keep moving away from you when you were trying to get intimate, and I mean moved away multiple times, you'd probably take that as a sign that she wasn't in the mood.

I mean, sticking your finger down someone's throat sounds like something not a whole lot of people would be into. Speaking as someone with a LOT of kinks, you really do need to talk over your kink with someone before you jump right into it. Doubly so when they keep trying to move away from you when you try and pull it off out of nowhere.

Warhound:

renegade7:

Warhound:

Totally cool to say that the majority of a population is likely to be abusers/criminals because of a tiny minority of that population though. Same argument, different words/targets.

If sexual assault is even a fraction as prevalent as the criminal statistics suggest that it is then I think it's fair to say that there are a shitload of straight men who are abusers, certainly a large enough share of the population where the typical woman feels a need to err on the side of caution when interacting with straight men.

Really now? I would love to see those sexual assault statistics (Only from a real government source though, I don't wanna see some feminist blog thats like "3 out of every 1 women is raped in her life time so every single man is a triple rapist!" kinda stuff.)

Centers for Disease Control tracks intimate partner violence as part of their public health policy: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf

This story does bring up an interesting question for me. Are many of the guys whining about consent and #MeToo etc more afraid of being labeled a creeper or being described as crap in bed?

bastardofmelbourne:

This sums up how I'm understanding this particular case as well, more or less. Well put.

BeetleManiac:
This story does bring up an interesting question for me. Are many of the guys whining about consent and #MeToo etc more afraid of being labeled a creeper or being described as crap in bed?

My question is at what point does being socially awkward stop being an excuse for poor behaviour? Is it at a certain age? A certain level of poor behaviour?

Aziz Ansari behaved like a douche. But he's not been accused of a crime, not under investigation, and there's really not that much to this story except people getting overexcited.

Agema:
Aziz Ansari behaved like a douche. But he's not been accused of a crime, not under investigation, and there's really not that much to this story except people getting overexcited.

This summed it up even better!

the December King:

Agema:
Aziz Ansari behaved like a douche. But he's not been accused of a crime, not under investigation, and there's really not that much to this story except people getting overexcited.

This summed it up even better!

Except it didn't, and it dodges part of the reason I originally posted this here.

By her own admission, this woman had no case and nothing bad actually happened to her; she had an unpleasant date she didn't like, and that is that.

But instead of leaving it at that, she goes and has a sensationalist rag publish what is essentially a social media hitpiece on Aziz Ansari because she knows while she has no legal or moral case against him, she can make it sound bad enough and exploitative enough to rile herself up some social media vigilante justice.

This woman has potentially ruined Aziz Ansari's career over nothing more than a annoyingly unpleasant date, and done it without any sort of due process or sense of sanity or self-reflection. This video sums it up nicely;

Aziz Ansari deserved to be blueballed for actions that night. What he didn't deserve is this woman slandering him and potentially blackballing him in his career.

Paragon Fury:

By her own admission, this woman had no case and nothing bad actually happened to her; she had an unpleasant date she didn't like, and that is that.

But instead of leaving it at that, she goes and has a sensationalist rag publish what is essentially a social media hitpiece on Aziz Ansari because she knows while she has no legal or moral case against him, she can make it sound bad enough and exploitative enough to rile herself up some social media vigilante justice.

So... by her own admission nothing happened, but she's also, by her own admission, ruining his career in a hit piece which, by her own admission, states nothing happened? Surely by stating that nothing happened she's said that nothing happened? All very confusing for a single-syllable guy like me. (I actually type all this out with hyphens to represent syllables, but delete them afterwards in case I scare girls away. I saw that on CSI once.)

Women benefit from saying "No" clearly.

Here's the rub when I try to push my "personal responsibility" argument onto Grace: Men don't want to hear "No."

For starters, it's interesting how having to verbalize your want for sex is awkward, mood-killing, etc., and we can point out all the signals "Grace" was giving in terms of wanting the D, but Aziz isn't expected to be able to take a hint and read negative signals and anything short of an explicit "NO!" gets read as "Try harder. You're crushing it. Try again later." "You tryna fuck?" is a no-go, but having to tell a guy "No!" is a panty-soaker, right? Never mind Aziz's "Where do you want me to fuck you?" Not awkward at all. And even when she finally does say "No," that only delays his push for intercourse. At what point is he a grown-ass man and not a 17 year old boy on Prom night?

It's almost as if there are times men play willfully ignorant because a begrudging "gray area" fuck is acceptable collateral.

This wasn't rape. But is that the goal for us men? "She didn't say no! I'm not guilty of a crime!" is the ceiling for you? Mission Accomplished? And in what universe is a "two blowjob/eating a chick out" night some failure of a first date?

All y'all quick to not want to infantilize "Grace", and fairly so; stop infantilizing men like Aziz like his bullshit was some "Aw shucks" misunderstanding.

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