The Impending US Government Shutdown

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 NEXT
 

bastardofmelbourne:
So the Senate has officially voted to end the shutdown after three days, with Schumer having agreed to a three-week extension of the budget to allow negotiations on DACA to continue, with a handshake promise from Mitch McConnell that he would allow DACA onto the Senate floor.

Some people - Trump included, naturally - are already characterising this as the Democrats folding in the face of pressure, but there are a lot of things at play to consider.

They are spineless, worthless, easily corrupted, intentionally corrupted, and/or the above. Either selected to be incapable of strategic thought, paid to be terrible at it, or intentional in their self-sabotage and aid towards enabling the GOP agenda.

Still think this might be a win for democrats? They are further eroding their credibility with their base for a promise from Mitch McConnell. The same Mitch McConnell who broke a promise to a Senator of his own party, Susan Collins. The same Mitch McConnell who flip-flopped on the nuclear option.

There are approximately seven virtually brain-dead people who honestly give a shit about the supposed virtue of bipartisanship and compromise, and they all work for CNN, MSNBC, the New York Times or some other "centrist" long, loud flatulence of a newspaper or television network. If they can't at least stand their ground on this, they deserve to lose.

I wouldn't trust McConnell with anything. He fucked over his own Republican colleague Susan Collins less than two months ago. I'll be amazed if he keeps his promise to Democrats.

Catnip1024:
Which means one has to blame the other side for everything and attempt to shirk responsibility for ones actions?

Political opponents and media (on balance) are perfectly capable of holding people to account for their decisions.

But when you say "Yeah, this is partly our fault", you are frequently handing them ammunition to destroy you. Do you really think for a minute the opposition is not going to seize on that sort of statement, and twist it for all its worth to exculpate their own?

Whether we like it or not, single-minded simplicities tend to go down better than nuanced, even handed discourse with the general public. That's why so much of political discourse is buzzwords and slogans - they are easy to grasp and go with.

Bomber Command killed thousands of people in WW2. They did so because it was a necessary evil. They didn't attempt to wash their hands of it and blame the Germans.

Bomber Command didn't, but politicians like Churchill promptly made themselves scarce when it became clear that German cities were being flattened with little regard for appropriate military gains. And, frankly, implicitly the Germans are totally getting the blame for German cities being devastated: for starting the war in the first place, and then not surrendering in good time.

Catnip1024:

Agema:
Unfortunately the Democratic Party is not operating in your fantasy land of a rational political environment, but the real world.

Which means one has to blame the other side for everything and attempt to shirk responsibility for ones actions?

If the Democrats had stood their ground, they would have had the easiest defense imaginable: they had completely reasonable conditions for approving funding for the operation of the government. Those conditions were entirely matters of continuing the operation of programs that the American people overwhelmingly support. If the Republicans weren't willing to go along with that, then they deserved to have their knees broken.

But instead, the Democrats cave and reward the GOP for being unreasonable and failing to represent the people.

Seanchaidh:
Still think this might be a win for democrats?

... Yes, because Republicans got nothing, but Democrats got CHIP and a guarentee on a vote for DACA, and if they don't get the latter, then they get to shutdown the Government again.

How the hell is this a loss for the Democrats? I want someone to explain this to me how this is a loss for the Dems...

bastardofmelbourne:
- Reports are coming in that senators used a "talking stick" in negotiations on Sunday night. The stick - actually a ceremonial Maasai leadership stick owned by Sen. Susan Collins - was working great, up until Sen. Alexander Lamar threw the stick at Sen. Mark Warner after the latter interrupted him. The hurled talking stick almost shattered a glass elephant also belonging to Collins, and afterwards the group agreed to use Alexander Lamar's basketball instead, to prevent any injury.

What the fuck? What the actual fuck? Seriously America what the fucking fuck? What is wrong with these people. You're government is being run by people who literally can't be trusted with a goddammned fucking stick. Jesus wept.

Mr.Mattress:
How the hell is this a loss for the Democrats? I want someone to explain this to me how this is a loss for the Dems...

Trump said it was and since his supporters lack even the most basic critical thinking ability, they believe it.

Mr.Mattress:

Seanchaidh:
Still think this might be a win for democrats?

... Yes, because Republicans got nothing, but Democrats got CHIP and a guarentee on a vote for DACA, and if they don't get the latter, then they get to shutdown the Government again.

How the hell is this a loss for the Democrats? I want someone to explain this to me how this is a loss for the Dems...

2 groups are making the argument that it's a loss for Democrats: Republicans (of course) and the left-wing activists (who also want "establishment" Dems to fail)

Seanchaidh:

bastardofmelbourne:
So the Senate has officially voted to end the shutdown after three days, with Schumer having agreed to a three-week extension of the budget to allow negotiations on DACA to continue, with a handshake promise from Mitch McConnell that he would allow DACA onto the Senate floor.

Some people - Trump included, naturally - are already characterising this as the Democrats folding in the face of pressure, but there are a lot of things at play to consider.

They are spineless, worthless, easily corrupted, intentionally corrupted, and/or the above. Either selected to be incapable of strategic thought, paid to be terrible at it, or intentional in their self-sabotage and aid towards enabling the GOP agenda.


Still think this might be a win for democrats? They are further eroding their credibility with their base for a promise from Mitch McConnell. The same Mitch McConnell who broke a promise to a Senator of his own party, Susan Collins. The same Mitch McConnell who flip-flopped on the nuclear option.

There are approximately seven virtually brain-dead people who honestly give a shit about the supposed virtue of bipartisanship and compromise, and they all work for CNN, MSNBC, the New York Times or some other "centrist" long, loud flatulence of a newspaper or television network. If they can't at least stand their ground on this, they deserve to lose.

Your post here has absolutely no analysis of the actual factors and events in play; it is childish screaming in the wind and based on nothing but repeating what your version of talking heads (the tweets) say and your pre-established biases want. I think most of us would be interested in your viewpoint that it was a complete spineless failure if it involved an actual discussion of what happened instead of just name-calling and spurious attacks.

CheetoDust:

bastardofmelbourne:
- Reports are coming in that senators used a "talking stick" in negotiations on Sunday night. The stick - actually a ceremonial Maasai leadership stick owned by Sen. Susan Collins - was working great, up until Sen. Alexander Lamar threw the stick at Sen. Mark Warner after the latter interrupted him. The hurled talking stick almost shattered a glass elephant also belonging to Collins, and afterwards the group agreed to use Alexander Lamar's basketball instead, to prevent any injury.

What the fuck? What the actual fuck? Seriously America what the fucking fuck? What is wrong with these people. You're government is being run by people who literally can't be trusted with a goddammned fucking stick. Jesus wept.

I mean this episode at least proves that our politicians do represent the voting public in character if not in policy....

bastardofmelbourne:
Reports are coming in that senators used a "talking stick" in negotiations on Sunday night. The stick - actually a ceremonial Maasai leadership stick owned by Sen. Susan Collins - was working great, up until Sen. Alexander Lamar threw the stick at Sen. Mark Warner after the latter interrupted him. The hurled talking stick almost shattered a glass elephant also belonging to Collins, and afterwards the group agreed to use Alexander Lamar's basketball instead, to prevent any injury.

This is both the most hilarious and saddest thing I've heard in awhile.

Mr.Mattress:

Seanchaidh:
Still think this might be a win for democrats?

... Yes, because Republicans got nothing, but Democrats got CHIP and a guarentee on a vote for DACA, and if they don't get the latter, then they get to shutdown the Government again.

How the hell is this a loss for the Democrats? I want someone to explain this to me how this is a loss for the Dems...

Best I can think of is that people are angry (and there are angry Democrat voters because of this) that it isn't a total and overwhelming victory, which they wanted instead of a slower and more tactical victory.

It kind of reminds me of the Fabian Strategy back in the Second Punic War. Hannibal was kicking Rome's ass up and down Italy, so the then Dictator of Rome, Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus, adopted a new approach to fighting Hannibal. Refusing to engage him directly, picking off his foraging parties, and keeping his army close to Hannibal's, limiting Hannibal's movements while keeping his own forces on favorable ground. Rome hated it, called for Fabius' head, accused him of being a coward...and it almost brought down the, at that point, undefeated Hannibal. The only reason it didn't work is that the Roman soldiers, when they thought they had Hannibal cornered, charged at a series of moving lights against Fabius' orders, only to find that Hannibal had tied torches to the horns of oxen and slipped away in the confusion.

I imagine Trump's smug preening hasn't exactly helped, a lot of people probably want to be able to have a victory they can stick in his face. Ignoring the fact that Trump is so deluded that he'll probably be claiming he was the best president ever, even if he ends up being the first one successfully impeached.

In conclusion, impatience is my best guess.

Avnger:

Your post here has absolutely no analysis of the actual factors and events in play

Except for the analysis and commentary of why this it setting up for a colossal backfire and even without that relies on the word of a chronic backstabber? Among other things?

Seanchaidh:
snip

Ninjamedic:
snip

The important thing to recognise here is that the Democrats have not (yet) surrendered any real leverage. The budget deal they signed onto will expire in three weeks; after that, a new budget deal will have to be reached. The Democrats will have just as much negotiating power in three weeks as they had last weekend. Nothing is going to change the fact that the Republicans need eight or so Democrats to pass a budget.

It's not a win, and to be honest it's a bit of an anti-climax, but it's not a loss either. CHIP is off the table, which is a tactical victory for the Democrats, because Paul Ryan had the brilliant (if cruel) ploy of deliberately delaying any renewal of CHIP's funding for six months purely so that he could hold its funding hostage to smear the Democrats. The Republicans gained three weeks of negotiating time and the delayed implementation of some ACA taxes, and the latter was probably going to end up in the budget anyway.

I share your concerns about Mitch McConnell, who essentially cannot be trusted for even the most basic commitments. But if he breaks his word, the Democrats can just shut down the government again in three weeks, and this time they would have a solid PR argument: "Mitch McConnell promised us DACA and did not deliver, so until we get DACA, there is no budget deal." And as a plus, there's no bad PR from having to vote down CHIP funding.

The real pitfall here for Democrats is the risk of passing an easy DACA bill in the Senate, where it has strong support, only to see Paul Ryan refuse to put it to the floor for a vote in the House. To avoid this, Senate Democrats have to resist the temptation to pass a DACA deal separate from the budget; its attachment to the budget is the only thing compelling Paul Ryan to put it to the floor for a vote.

erttheking:
It kind of reminds me of the Fabian Strategy back in the Second Punic War. Hannibal was kicking Rome's ass up and down Italy, so the then Dictator of Rome, Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus, adopted a new approach to fighting Hannibal. Refusing to engage him directly, picking off his foraging parties, and keeping his army close to Hannibal's, limiting Hannibal's movements while keeping his own forces on favorable ground. Rome hated it, called for Fabius' head, accused him of being a coward...and it almost brought down the, at that point, undefeated Hannibal. The only reason it didn't work is that the Roman soldiers, when they thought they had Hannibal cornered, charged at a series of moving lights against Fabius' orders, only to find that Hannibal had tied torches to the horns of oxen and slipped away in the confusion.

To further expand the analogy, Fabius's unpopular strategy was abandoned by his replacement, Varro, and Rome was nearly conquered as a result. There's a lesson in that.

I'd also mention in passing that Washington adopted Fabian Strategy during the War of Independence. It's of significance to US citizens.

I honestly don't get why liberals and leftists are so mad right now. CHIP is going to be funded for six years which is a massive win, and if the GOP doesn't work on DACA in good faith on Feburary 2, they're just exposing themselves on bad faith. Sure, it's not what was wanted, but it's an edge.

Let me reiterate the point that MILLIONS OF KIDS aren't going to die from a lack of healthcare coverage, and there's a glimmer of hope for people in DACA still, plus the government stays funded for a few more weeks and the onus is on the GOP to follow through. How is this a bad thing?

NemotheElvenPanda:
I honestly don't get why liberals and leftists are so made right now. CHIP is going to be funded for six years which is a massive win, and if the GOP doesn't work on DACA in good faith on Feburary 2, they're just exposing themselves on bad faith. Sure, it's not what was wanted, but it's an edge.

Because for the left-wing, it's all or nothing. There is no middle ground; sliding to the left is not allowed. The only choices are to get everything they want, now, or burn it all to the ground.

They're the liberal version of the tea party.

Avnger:

NemotheElvenPanda:
I honestly don't get why liberals and leftists are so made right now. CHIP is going to be funded for six years which is a massive win, and if the GOP doesn't work on DACA in good faith on Feburary 2, they're just exposing themselves on bad faith. Sure, it's not what was wanted, but it's an edge.

Because for the left-wing, it's all or nothing. There is no middle ground; sliding to the left is not allowed. The only choices are to get everything they want, now, or burn it all to the ground.

They're the liberal version of the tea party.

Which is weird for me since I'm borderline communist and have had a dislike for the democrats for the past eight years. It just boggles me that preventing kids from dying or being deported is seen as the morally weaker choice.

bastardofmelbourne:
snip

This all assumes the GOP have operated with any integrity in recent memory. Bearing in mind that's based on what the people clamming that this is a victory or that the GOP can be shamed have been saying about the same GOP for the past 2 years.

NemotheElvenPanda:
I honestly don't get why liberals and leftists are so mad right now.

Come back to this in three weeks.

Ninjamedic:

Come back to this in three weeks.

Which will be on the GOP's hands, not the Democrats.

NemotheElvenPanda:

Ninjamedic:

Come back to this in three weeks.

Which will be on the GOP's hands, not the Democrats.

It already was on their hands! Do you honestly think 3 weeks is going to stop them? They already have the Dems stepping down, you could just as easily say they will wear the Democrats down and get everything they want. The Democrats haven't won anything real, just promises from a political body they've been saying has been infiltrated by Russians and Neo-Nazis, from a GOP politician known for backstabbing and reneging on guarantees, from a party that has always demanded all, got compromises and then pressed for all, and got all.

Ninjamedic:

NemotheElvenPanda:

Ninjamedic:

Come back to this in three weeks.

Which will be on the GOP's hands, not the Democrats.

It already was on their hands! Do you honestly think 3 weeks is going to stop them? They already have the Dems stepping down, you could just as easily say they will wear the Democrats down and get everything they want. The Democrats haven't won anything real, just promises from a political body they've been saying has been infiltrated by Russians and Neo-Nazis, from a GOP politician known for backstabbing and reneging on guarantees, from a party that has always demanded all, got compromises and then pressed for all, and got all.

How is CHIP getting funding for six years not a win? How is keeping DACA on the table not a win? How is keeping the government funded after what Trump did not a win? I'm seriously starting to think I'm the only one who seems to care about kids here and not political maneuvering.

Unless if the GOP wants to shut-down the government on their eyes, they're not winning here.

NemotheElvenPanda:
I'm seriously starting to think I'm the only one who seems to care about kids here and not political maneuvering.

Well I;m currently feeding some Victorian chimney-sweeps into a furnace as I type this, so maybe my perspective is invalid. After all, if you can't type a rebuttal without ad hominem I must be in the wrong!

Ninjamedic:

NemotheElvenPanda:
I'm seriously starting to think I'm the only one who seems to care about kids here and not political maneuvering.

Well I;m currently feeding some Victorian chimney-sweeps into a furnace as I type this, so maybe my perspective is invalid. After all, if you can't type a rebuttal without ad hominem I must be in the wrong!

I did give a rebuttal: everything the Democrats wanted has been either enacted into law like CHIP, or is being put on hold like DACA, so it's not over yet for them or their constituents or the people who benefit from these programs. Moreover, it makes the GOP look bad in about every level.

Ninjamedic:

NemotheElvenPanda:

Ninjamedic:

Come back to this in three weeks.

Which will be on the GOP's hands, not the Democrats.

It already was on their hands! Do you honestly think 3 weeks is going to stop them? They already have the Dems stepping down, you could just as easily say they will wear the Democrats down and get everything they want. The Democrats haven't won anything real, just promises from a political body they've been saying has been infiltrated by Russians and Neo-Nazis, from a GOP politician known for backstabbing and reneging on guarantees, from a party that has always demanded all, got compromises and then pressed for all, and got all.

The Democrats traded 3 weeks of no shutdown (and nothing else) for children's health insurance being funded for 6 years. I don't know how you can say that's "not anything real." Once the 3 weeks has run its course, we're exactly back at square one except for poor children not dying from lack of healthcare.

You're recommending pointless grandstanding for optics instead of actual strategy to get things accomplished. One of the top two budget issues for Democrats (DACA and CHIP) has been accomplished (for 6 years) by giving Republicans less than 6% of a year's time. That's a fucking win.

NemotheElvenPanda:
How is CHIP getting funding for six years not a win?

Republicans said they wanted that anyway. They were going to blame the Democrats for losing it after cynically maneuvering to hold it hostage.

The American people overwhelmingly want CHIP to be funded, to the tune of 87%(!). They also want DACA.

Basically, this happened: "We stopped the Republicans from nuking Peoria! Yay, we won!"

Seanchaidh:

NemotheElvenPanda:
How is CHIP getting funding for six years not a win?

Republicans said they wanted that anyway. They were going to blame the Democrats for losing it after cynically maneuvering to hold it hostage.

The American people overwhelmingly want CHIP to be funded, to the tune of 87%(!). They also want DACA.

Basically, this happened: "We stopped the Republicans from nuking Peoria! Yay, we won!"

Even though the GOP had let CHIP expire and entangled it with the financial plan with the expectation of the government to flounder.

Again, how is that not a win? The Democrats made sure that a popular program wasn't terminated by the dominant political party.

NemotheElvenPanda:

Seanchaidh:

NemotheElvenPanda:
How is CHIP getting funding for six years not a win?

Republicans said they wanted that anyway. They were going to blame the Democrats for losing it after cynically maneuvering to hold it hostage.

The American people overwhelmingly want CHIP to be funded, to the tune of 87%(!). They also want DACA.

Basically, this happened: "We stopped the Republicans from nuking Peoria! Yay, we won!"

Even though the GOP had let CHIP expire and entangled it with the financial plan with the expectation of the government to flounder.

Again, how is that not a win? The Democrats made sure that a popular program wasn't terminated by the dominant political party.

Because this means that all the Republicans have to do to get their way is disingenuously hold various programs hostage. It's not a "win" to sell out DACA recipients for that.

And make no mistake, they really were sold out.

This was false from the start. As the Department of Homeland Security announced the very same day, any DACA recipient whose two-year permit was set to expire by March 5 would have only 30 days to apply for a renewal. On October 5, the doors closed. Any DACA beneficiary who didn?t apply for a renewal by then, and whose permit has since expired, has lost DACA protections.

The Democrats have delivered to Trump and ICE a few weeks of deporting DACA recipients.

Seanchaidh:

NemotheElvenPanda:

Seanchaidh:

Republicans said they wanted that anyway. They were going to blame the Democrats for losing it after cynically maneuvering to hold it hostage.

The American people overwhelmingly want CHIP to be funded, to the tune of 87%(!). They also want DACA.

Basically, this happened: "We stopped the Republicans from nuking Peoria! Yay, we won!"

Even though the GOP had let CHIP expire and entangled it with the financial plan with the expectation of the government to flounder.

Again, how is that not a win? The Democrats made sure that a popular program wasn't terminated by the dominant political party.

Because this means that all the Republicans have to do to get their way is disingenuously hold various programs hostage. It's not a "win" to sell out DACA recipients for that.

They're not being "sold out", it means that if DACA ends, it's not on the Democrats but on the GOP. If it doesn't end, it's because the Democrats made sure it at least stays on the table. If the Democrats didn't ensure that the government would've stayed open for three more weeks, then DACA would otherwise be dead while standing.

I don't know if this is well-known, but the Democrats are a minority party. Any program that they want is more or less being held hostage, especially by any administration with Ryan and McConnell involved.

bastardofmelbourne:
It's not a win, and to be honest it's a bit of an anti-climax, but it's not a loss either.

How is it not a win? CHIP is funded, there are no government workers sat unpaid, and there is more negotiating time.

I don't personally think that the Democrats could have done any better with the situation they were in. Any other situation would have unpaid workers, which creates victims and resentment. This actually shows that they are putting the people above the posturing for the time being.

Ok, people saying this was a loss, please walk me through this. CHIP was being used to threaten DACA being taken away, which was why the shutdown happened. CHIP can no longer be used as leverage against the DACA, which is in the exact same place as it was before, minus the GOP's ability to use CHIP as blackmail material, and if the GOP goes back on its word, a shutdown will just happen over again except this time they'll have less leverage.

Please tell me how the Democrats caved or sold out here. I don't see it.

Catnip1024:

bastardofmelbourne:
It's not a win, and to be honest it's a bit of an anti-climax, but it's not a loss either.

How is it not a win? CHIP is funded, there are no government workers sat unpaid, and there is more negotiating time.

I don't personally think that the Democrats could have done any better with the situation they were in. Any other situation would have unpaid workers, which creates victims and resentment. This actually shows that they are putting the people above the posturing for the time being.

The Democrats are losers.

So ended, in Schumer's words, the "Trump shutdown." This moniker is a not insignificant bit of obfuscation on the Democrats' part. It is of course true, as Schumer and others have said over and over again, that the Republican Party has the presidency, the House, and the Senate, making the shutdown the first to occur with ostensible one-party control of government. It is also true that moving forward on a funding bill required 60 votes in the Senate that the Republican Party did not have, even with the support of vulnerable shutdown-wary Democrats. The vast majority of Senate Democrats, who did not lend them that support, are responsible for the shutdown. Those Democrats have spent the past three days blaming it on Republican procedural incompetence rather than making a straightforward, honest case to the American people that the shutdown's true purpose- securing a DACA deal- was worth it. "It's the president's and congressional Republicans' responsibility to govern," Schumer said in a speech Saturday. "It's their responsibility to keep the doors open and the lights on around here." The word for this is cowardice.
There may well be another shutdown in the coming weeks. But an opportunity was blown Monday.

Luckily for Democrats, polls repeatedly showed that the American people backed their framing. A Public Policy Polling/Center for American Progress poll released Sunday found that 52 percent of Americans blamed President Trump and Republicans for the shutdown. It also found that 58 percent of Americans wanted to include Dreamers as part of a package deal to reopen the government. Forty-two percent of Americans, the poll says, would have strongly supported this.

The deal Democrats agreed to instead amounted to not much more than they were offered by the Republicans immediately before the shutdown: an extension of government funds until Feb. 8, a six-year extension of the needlessly beleaguered CHIP program, and a pinky promise from Mitch McConnell that a vote on a DACA fix will be held before the latest round of government funding expires. That assurance from McConnell was evidently solid enough to win over Democrats who, exactly a year ago, were moaning endlessly about his theft of Merrick Garland's Supreme Court seat. Even assuming clean, pure, and virginal intent on McConnell's part, it is not at all certain that the House will even take up a DACA fix not attached to a must-pass spending bill. This was, really, the point of the shutdown, which, after just three days of dithering from Democrats and nauseating lectures from Republicans about the harms of "manufactured" crises, is already over.

There may well be another shutdown in the coming weeks. But an opportunity was blown Monday.

The only upside is that the situation is not yet unrecoverable.

Ninjamedic:

Avnger:

Your post here has absolutely no analysis of the actual factors and events in play

Except for the analysis and commentary of why this it setting up for a colossal backfire

You say this as if such analysis and commentary has been entered into evidence (ie: posted in this thread); it has not. There has been a ton of insult-hurling, derision, and emotional whining instead. You don't just get to claim this was a complete loss for democrats and expect us to accept that.

Why was it a complete loss? What exactly did the Democrats give up? What exactly did the Republicans gain? What did the Republicans give up? What did the Democrats gain? Why does one group's loss/gain outweigh the other's loss/gain? How would you have done it better? Which objectives would your path have accomplished more easily? What would be the costs of your path?

Answering those questions would be analysis and commentary. Shouting "spineless," "token opposition," and "incapable" is neither of those things.[1]

Ninjamedic:
and even without that relies on the word of a chronic backstabber?

Last I checked, CHIP being funded for 6 years is now law and not just a promise by McConnell.

Ninjamedic:
Among other things?

Other things such as what? Don't throw about such a ridiculous open-ended generalization at the end of an argument to make it seem stronger. It's really poor form and the type of thing one does when they know their argument doesn't hold water as-is.

[1] Arguably it could be "commentary," but it's not useful or sensible commentary until the previous analysis and such is done first

Avnger:

Other things such as what? Don't throw about such a ridiculous open-ended generalization at the end of an argument to make it seem stronger. It's really poor form and the type of thing one does when they know their argument doesn't hold water as-is.

You have your discussion and breakdown above, you just continue to handwave any post that doesn't agree with you. I already pointed out why I see this as a potential failure and something not to hail as a victory since all that is guaranteed was the Republicans original demands and that the supposed victory is based on the word of a man that has already gone back on it in previous partisan issues. The Dems already had a situation where a majority of the public blamed the other side for the shutdown, what is there to gain from the delay?

Bastard gave me something to consider about this approach, how about you tell me why do you think McConnell can be trusted now of all times (And how we have Biden's comments to add to this) or what exactly has been won from the Republicans?

Ninjamedic:

Avnger:

Other things such as what? Don't throw about such a ridiculous open-ended generalization at the end of an argument to make it seem stronger. It's really poor form and the type of thing one does when they know their argument doesn't hold water as-is.

You have your discussion and breakdown above, you just continue to handwave any post that doesn't agree with you.

I mean its almost like you posted what I just replied to 5.5 hours before Sean's post at 3:53pm. So were you just talking out of your bum at 10:15am because, last I checked, time travel isn't currently possible. Which analysis had been posted in the thread at that point other than melbourne's which contradicts what you've been saying?

The fact that you don't have answers now or then kind of proves my point about the posts full of whining and based-purely-on-emotion, childish name-calling. Sean's quote is the first analysis of any kind beyond "hur dur I hate 'establishment' Democrats" for the argument you've been making.

tldr: I'm sorry that you can't substantiate your outrage with anything beyond your own feelings. You can't blame others for not agreeing with you when they ask for any kind of evidence (or even an elementary analysis of why you feel that way) and you hand-wave it off by tossing up a bunch of also angry and based purely on emotion tweets by random people.

Ninjamedic:
I already pointed out why I see this as a potential failure and something not to hail as a victory since all that is guaranteed was the Republicans original demands and that the supposed victory is based on the word of a man that has already gone back on it in previous partisan issues.

You are still completely ignoring that 6 years worth of CHIP funding has been signed into law.... If you continue acting as if that counts as nothing, you lose the right to complain when people say you don't care about poor children receiving healthcare, mate, because that's what you're doing here.

Ninjamedic:

The Dems already had a situation where a majority of the public blamed the other side for the shutdown, what is there to gain from the delay?

Bastard gave me something to consider about this approach, how about you tell me why do you think McConnell can be trusted now of all times (And how we have Biden's comments to add to this) or what exactly has been won from the Republicans?

I never said McConnell could be trusted. I said that given where we were exactly 24 hours ago, trading 3 weeks of time for 6 years of CHIP funding is a partial win. The fact that when those 3 weeks come up, everything except that CHIP funding is in the same situation as 24 hours ago means McConnell could completely renege on his promise, which I would say is at least 75/25 odds, yet all that's been lost is that time period of less than 6% of one year.

"In case you've forgotten-I certainly wish I had-Republicans currently hold unified control over the federal government. They were seemingly more than happy to let health insurance for 9 million American children expire indefinitely. And lest we forget, conservatives are much more hostile to central functions of the government-from collecting taxes to ensuring compliance with environmental standards-than liberals. A few weeks ago, it very much looked as though they held all the cards in their hands.

Buoyed by grassroots support, the Democratic leaders in Congress turned the tables. They made it clear that they had two big preconditions for any long-term deal to fund the government. First, children's health insurance would have to be extended for a substantial period of time. Second, Republicans would have to strike a deal to protect the 900,000 Dreamers who will be at risk of deportation unless Congress offers them a more certain future by the beginning of March.

Monday's deal is a full victory on the first count. The CHIP program has been extended for six years. Nine million children-a very large share of whom, by the way, are brown or black-will keep access to health care. The moral importance of this accomplishment should be evident to everybody."

I know that Slate is Slate, but the idea that this is somehow a setback against Democrats just isn't in the cards:https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/the-left-needs-to-learn-how-to-recognize-victory-when-it-comes.html

Thaluikhain:

erttheking:
It kind of reminds me of the Fabian Strategy back in the Second Punic War. Hannibal was kicking Rome's ass up and down Italy, so the then Dictator of Rome, Quintus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus, adopted a new approach to fighting Hannibal. Refusing to engage him directly, picking off his foraging parties, and keeping his army close to Hannibal's, limiting Hannibal's movements while keeping his own forces on favorable ground. Rome hated it, called for Fabius' head, accused him of being a coward...and it almost brought down the, at that point, undefeated Hannibal. The only reason it didn't work is that the Roman soldiers, when they thought they had Hannibal cornered, charged at a series of moving lights against Fabius' orders, only to find that Hannibal had tied torches to the horns of oxen and slipped away in the confusion.

To further expand the analogy, Fabius's unpopular strategy was abandoned by his replacement, Varro, and Rome was nearly conquered as a result. There's a lesson in that.

I'd also mention in passing that Washington adopted Fabian Strategy during the War of Independence. It's of significance to US citizens.

Hannibal could have conquered Rome after the battle of Cannae (he declined to go for the jugular). Hannibal avoided confrontation while in a winning position, and that in turn caused Carthage to be destroyed.

There is a thing called context, and this is NOT the time for a Fabian strategy.

Catnip1024:

bastardofmelbourne:
It's not a win, and to be honest it's a bit of an anti-climax, but it's not a loss either.

How is it not a win? CHIP is funded, there are no government workers sat unpaid, and there is more negotiating time.

I don't personally think that the Democrats could have done any better with the situation they were in. Any other situation would have unpaid workers, which creates victims and resentment. This actually shows that they are putting the people above the posturing for the time being.

Second that. They got to show they'd shutdown the government, they got to end the shutdown quickly and thus avoid causing prolonged hardship to the people they are supposed to protect, they got a concession out of it they can justify it with. Oh, and the thing about sick kids getting healthcare, which might be considered a win.

They can always shut the government down again if need be.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here