What's your opinions on Jordan Peterson?

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Gorfias:

erttheking:

I?m sorry that you think so poorly of men that you think we?re all slaves to our dicks, but kindly don?t implied I share in that imaginary weak will.

And you?re still not an authority on lipstick

And you are? You have a plausible explanation for it, and high heels besides the alluring impact they have on men? I doubt you have a credible response.

More below.

Avnger:

I'm sorry that you have such a low esteem of yourself and your ability to keep your dick in your pants.

That is JD and my point: I do keep my dick in my pants. And I don't read Penthouse during my lunch breaks, even if it is behind a closed door. And I don't have desktop wallpaper that women find find offensive as it might celebrate female beauty that is not their own. And I police the words I use, particularly if a female coworker says she is triggered by the word, "tickle".

I live in an increasingly hostile environment where I cannot be myself. I have to fear a series of events that could lead to my death if I don't use the terms "zee" or "zur" when demanded. But I persevere. That is what men do.

This has all begged the question: If you want a sterile environment (and I do not but I count less and less)wearing lipstick is an affront to this goal. Yet people on this thread appear to be scandalized that if that is the goal, there are things women have to do as well. This is the sort of Gynocentric thinking the MRAs are against. Injustice. And the fight against not only the radical feminists but manginas, cucks and white nights makes that fight all the harder.

You seriously think you're gonna be killed if you use "Zee" or "Zur" incorrectly? Aren't you being a bit over the top here?

Fuck first time I hear those words though.

Gorfias:

Oh my. You all seem so out of touch with reality. Never in the military service? If power is the ability to get people to do things for you, you are simply blotting out reality if you do not think a beautiful woman cannot get a man to eat a steaming pile of crap for her.

Your opinion of men is truly tragic, and yet somehow you blame women for those failings. Why can men not control themselves?

Gethsemani:
This thread is on the verge of becoming too toxic. Please remember to treat each other with respect. The discussion is good, the tone is not.

You really think discussing politics has ever had a good tone? Things are always gonna get out of control.

WolvDragon:

You really think discussing politics has ever had a good tone? Things are always gonna get out of control.

I beg to differ. You can have a political discussion without resorting to name calling and insults. There's a difference between a vicious discussion about ideology or policies and two people insulting each other between discussing those things.

As a future reference, publicly challenging mods when they are using their mod authority is not allowed by the CoC. Next time don't do it.

Gethsemani:

WolvDragon:

You really think discussing politics has ever had a good tone? Things are always gonna get out of control.

I beg to differ. You can have a political discussion without resorting to name calling and insults. There's a difference between a vicious discussion about ideology or policies and two people insulting each other between discussing those things.

As a future reference, publicly challenging mods when they are using their mod authority is not allowed by the CoC. Next time don't do it.

My apologizes, I wasn't trying to challenge you on anything. I'm just saying that discussing politics is rarely civil, espcially in this current political climate.

Baffle2:

Your opinion of men is truly tragic, and yet somehow you blame women for those failings. Why can men not control themselves?

Why do women need to insist I change my computer desktop wallpaper? Can't they control themselves?

Saelune:

Found nothing about stats for people killed for not saying zee though.

Let's hope it stays at 0.

evilthecat:

Men can wear lipstick

I'm fine with women using hardcore porn on their desktop computer wallpaper.

All: the point is, women are making demands of men. If men make no counter demands, there will be no end to creating an ever more sterile, hostile work environment. They will never think that they can "pick the black marble": that the world they would create never has an impact on them. In the end, that isn't going to make anyone happy.

Gorfias:
Why do women need to insist I change my computer desktop wallpaper? Can't they control themselves?

That argument fails when the wallpaper in question made serious effort to accentuate specifically the TnA part of all the women which is not acceptable in a professional work environment. It's not their fault you chose a poor desktop background.

All: the point is, women are making demands of men.

No they're not.

If men make no counter demands,

Men have been making demands of women for decades, it's about damn time it stops.

there will be no end to creating an ever more sterile, hostile work environment.

Not having a desktop wallpaper that put too much loving detail in the hips, asses, and breasts of the women depicted in them is not "sterilizing" anything, the only one getting "hostile" is you because you're latching onto that specific event so much to then make broad demands that women stop doing things they like.

Dr. Thrax:

Gorfias:
Why do women need to insist I change my computer desktop wallpaper? Can't they control themselves?

That argument fails when the wallpaper in question made serious effort to accentuate specifically the TnA part of all the women which is not acceptable in a professional work environment. It's not their fault you chose a poor desktop background.

All: the point is, women are making demands of men.

No they're not.

If men make no counter demands,

Men have been making demands of women for decades, it's about damn time it stops.

there will be no end to creating an ever more sterile, hostile work environment.

Not having a desktop wallpaper that put too much loving detail in the hips, asses, and breasts of the women depicted in them is not "sterilizing" anything, the only one getting "hostile" is you because you're latching onto that specific event so much to then make broad demands that women stop doing things they like.

Why do women need to insist I change my computer desktop wallpaper? Can't they control themselves? Nothing in your response addresses this question.

Gorfias:
[Why do women need to insist I change my computer desktop wallpaper? Can't they control themselves? Nothing in your response addresses this question.

That argument fails when the wallpaper in question made serious effort to accentuate specifically the TnA part of all the women which is not acceptable in a professional work environment. It's not their fault you chose a poor desktop background.

It's not about a "lack of control". You had a wallpaper that was inappropriate for a professional work environment because it was - in a way - sexual, without being explicit. The image was made with some intent to titillate; the extremely tight uniforms, the poses that put their asses and/or breasts on display to draw the eye to them, etc. A desktop wallpaper that is in some capacity sexual with the intent to be sexual cannot be an accurate comparison for lipstick since - as said before - lipstick is not inherently sexual.

A few women asking a couple things of you that you took issue with is not indicative of a larger trend of "women making demands of men".

Dr. Thrax:

Gorfias:
[Why do women need to insist I change my computer desktop wallpaper? Can't they control themselves? Nothing in your response addresses this question.

That argument fails when the wallpaper in question made serious effort to accentuate specifically the TnA part of all the women which is not acceptable in a professional work environment. It's not their fault you chose a poor desktop background.

It's not about a "lack of control". You had a wallpaper that was inappropriate for a professional work environment because it was - in a way - sexual, without being explicit. The image was made with some intent to titillate; the extremely tight uniforms, the poses that put their asses and/or breasts on display to draw the eye to them, etc. A desktop wallpaper that is in some capacity sexual with the intent to be sexual cannot be an accurate comparison for lipstick since - as said before - lipstick is not inherently sexual.

A few women asking a couple things of you that you took issue with is not indicative of a larger trend of "women making demands of men".

Who cares? I have desktop wallpaper that is sexual. So what? Why would that make a woman melt down? Why aren't they minding their own business? And if they do not, why would you not tell women to stop wearing makeup, high heels etc as that is meant to be sexually enticing? Simply stating it is not is absurd.

Gorfias:

Who cares? I have desktop wallpaper that is sexual. So what? Why would that make a woman melt down? Why aren't they minding their own business? And if they do not, why would you not tell women to stop wearing makeup, high heels etc as that is meant to be sexually enticing? Simply stating it is not is absurd.

Let's be very concrete:
1. Lipstick (and make-up in general), high heels, skirts and blouses are all considered part of the professional attire for women. Just like suits, ties and leather shoes are for men. There's a miles wide difference between the make-up a woman will apply for work and the make-up she will apply when she wants to come on sexually. Just as there's a difference between what heels she will wear at work and which she will wear to a date, a nightclub or a kinky bedroom activity. The length of her skirt and the cleavage of her blouse will also shift according to if she intends to be professional or sexually alluring. (Source: Am a woman, knows women, works with women).

If you (general you) can not see a red lipstick, a pair of pumps or a skirt without feeling blood flowing towards your genitals, that's your problem, especially if the lipstick, pumps and skirt are part of a traditional woman's business attire. Some people, like me, find women in 'power suits' very attractive, but that's my particular kink and not a fault of the woman who decides to look professional.

On the flip: If you pick a wallpaper that's not professional, that's on you. You (as in Gorfias) have already established that you do not like when women bring sexuality to the workplace, so why should you be allowed to? Why should your co-workers have to be reminded about your sexuality and sexual preferences every time they go by your workstation or enter your office? Why can't you choose a neutral wallpaper? Your wallpaper is the equivalent of your female co-worker picking out a miniskirt, a pair of gogo boots and a semi-transparent blouse as business attire. And we both know how you'd feel about that. So why should you be exempt from the rules you so badly want to apply to others?

Gorfias:

Why do women need to insist I change my computer desktop wallpaper? Can't they control themselves? Nothing in your response addresses this question.

Your wallpaper was unprofessional. If you worked in an all male environment, it still would've been unprofessional. At work, you represent your company and your image reflects on them. Very few companies want to reflect the image of people not taking their jobs very seriously.

Gethsemani:
professional attire

There are places where professional attire follows a single standard for both sexes. Hospitals and the military for example. So a call for it is not absurd. But uniformity is not too hip in most circles. Maybe Gorfias wants it to be? His strategy to make it catch on might need some refinement, looking at this thread at least.

As a related note, even if we decisively point out that women and the makeup they wear "for themselves" is mostly the way it is because of vanity or some other trait we could perceive negatively, we can't just throw it out like it's nothing. Some people need to feel beautiful (just like the current trend of having to feel fit). Culture and society run on these things too and if one wishes to make changes they have to be smart about it - at the very least.

McElroy:

Gethsemani:
professional attire

There are places where professional attire follows a single standard for both sexes. Hospitals and the military for example. So a call for it is not absurd. But uniformity is not too hip in most circles. Maybe Gorfias wants it to be? His strategy to make it catch on might need some refinement, looking at this thread at least.

Yeah I know, seeing as how I worked nearly a decade in a hospital environment myself. However, the use of a mandated uniform or attire is usually reserved either for actual uniformed work (police, military, etc.), health care (mainly for sanitary reasons) or for low-end customer contact jobs (cashiers, host/hostess, waiter/waitress, fast food restaurants etc.). I was talking about the white collar kind of professional attire, the kind that Gorfias has been referencing throughout this thread.

McElroy:
As a related note, even if we decisively point out that women and the makeup they wear "for themselves" is mostly the way it is because of vanity or some other trait we could perceive negatively, we can't just throw it out like it's nothing. Some people need to feel beautiful (just like the current trend of having to feel fit). Culture and society run on these things too and if one wishes to make changes they have to be smart about it - at the very least.

They do. It is also worth noting that I've met many women who have had customer contact jobs and been told to apply more/better make-up to look more appealing to the customers. This isn't just something women do for their own sake, they do it because in many circles it is expected that a woman will apply make-up as a part of their professional attire, whether that is business clothes or their McD button down.

Gethsemani:

Let's be very concrete:
1. Lipstick (and make-up in general), high heels, skirts and blouses are all considered part of the professional attire for women.

Try telling that to a job applicant. I hope your lawsuit insurance is paid up.

On the flip: If you pick a wallpaper that's not professional, that's on you. You (as in Gorfias) have already established that you do not like when women bring sexuality to the workplace, so why should you be allowed to? Why should your co-workers have to be reminded about your sexuality and sexual preferences every time they go by your workstation or enter your office? Why can't you choose a neutral wallpaper? Your wallpaper is the equivalent of your female co-worker picking out a miniskirt, a pair of gogo boots and a semi-transparent blouse as business attire. And we both know how you'd feel about that. So why should you be exempt from the rules you so badly want to apply to others?

Other way around. I do not want a sterile environment. But if women are going to harass me and a create a defacto hostile environment where I have to be a quisling regarding my very speech, there are things women should have to conversely do. What shocks me is that everyone here is scandalized thinking they may have picked the black marble.

erttheking:

Your wallpaper was unprofessional. If you worked in an all male environment, it still would've been unprofessional. At work, you represent your company and your image reflects on them. Very few companies want to reflect the image of people not taking their jobs very seriously.

When I was in the service, I visited a hanger populated by civilian males. On their tool cart was a picture of 2 half naked women (the other 1/2 was Navy Tops) with one on her knees before the other with the words, "The Navy. It's Not Just a Job, It's an Adventure". I was with a number of other airmen. Not one of us gave it a 2nd thought.
On the other hand, back in the day, Windows 3.1, you could pick all sorts of color schemes. In the movie, "You Can Count on Me" Mathew Broderick, a new bank manager, tells his assistant to instruct a woman to change her current purplish scheme back to default. I'm sure you can go too far with this intolerance shit.

Gorfias:

When I was in the service

You aren't in the service anymore. Military is one of the few places where stuff like this flies, and they're very much an outlier and even then this kind of stuff mainly exists for the rank and file and the officers would not be able to get away with that. You aren't in the military anymore, and a white collar office setting is not a military hanger.

Gorfias:
I have to fear a series of events that could lead to my death if I don't use the terms "zee" or "zur" when demanded.

WOW that hyperbole.

How do you go outside knowing that there are literal murderers and serial killers who actually COULD kill you, if you're so afraid of some nonexistant threat to your life for not using "zee"?

I've met several people who use "They" or other weird things as pronouns and I've misgendered them due to force of habit. In Canada, with this supposed law that JP fears will get him locked up. Am I in jail? Was I fined? Was my life in danger? No, I just went "oh, woops, sorry. I'll try to do better" and everything was fine, no hard feelings were had by the person I misgendered.

Gorfias:

Who cares? I have desktop wallpaper that is sexual. So what? Why would that make a woman melt down? Why aren't they minding their own business? And if they do not, why would you not tell women to stop wearing makeup, high heels etc as that is meant to be sexually enticing? Simply stating it is not is absurd.

Ok, it seems like we've gotten to the heart of the issue here.

So...You seem to be ignoring the fact that women have been sexually objectified, harassed, assaulted and exploited for much of human history and are thus sensitive to this stuff as a survival mechanism.

Women often and have to deal with men leering out of cars at them, cat-calling them and making them feel like "these men only see me as sexual meat" just walking down the street everyday. Add to that the fear of rape if they go anywhere alone or of getting roofied if they're not watching their drinks at a public place, and it's going to make a lot of women hyper-sensitive to sexual content. Now, work is supposed to be professional, and thus generally safe from this crap. So a sexual themed wallpaper is obviously going to trigger those same feelings of "oh, I'm just being viewed as a piece of meat again" and make someone uncomfortable working with you.

Let's do a little thought experiment, shall we?

Imagine a world where every where you went, women looked at you with scorn, and many called out "You filthy pig! Fuck off!" when you're just walking down the street, because you're a man. Where everywhere you go, women often go out of their way to make you feel like you're obviously a disgusting sex-craved animal who should be treated with disdain purely because you're a man.

Now, you go to work, and see that a lady co-worker with a desktop of a man with pig features in a guillotine, with a woman holding the lever and saying "Pigs should be butchered! Oink oink, bacon!" Given that you'd constantly feel unsafe or looked at with scorn, wouldn't that make you uncomfortable, or make you wonder if you can trust this co-worker to not give you a raw deal? (Considering how threatened you feel about the whole "zee" thing, I'm guessing you WOULD be uncomfortable)

It's more or less what women have to put up with.

Gorfias:

Gethsemani:

Let's be very concrete:
1. Lipstick (and make-up in general), high heels, skirts and blouses are all considered part of the professional attire for women.

Try telling that to a job applicant. I hope your lawsuit insurance is paid up.

While I can't personally verify this, I've heard enough anecdotes from lady friends who've been told by bosses to use more makeup to look "presentable/professional". There were no lawsuits. They don't have the time or money to sue the boss they're depending on for their salary so they can, you know, eat.

You got you're warning, now the thread gets locked.

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