What's your opinions on Jordan Peterson?

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undeadsuitor:

Gorfias:

undeadsuitor:

If everyone's responsible, what can men do? What are their responsibilities?

Be much, much more restrained than they'd like. Have you seen the Mad Men series?

I've literally been told to change my computer wallpaper as it was too provocative.

I think men are better for these changes. I was tasked with watching a sexual harassment sensitivity video and when they gave dramatized examples of how some men actually act, we in the audience laughed our butts off. These men weren't just being annoying to women. They were making asses of themselves.

How much restrained is restrained enough? I don't know. Most recently, I heard lessons about how to give a professional, touching each others elbows quick embrace and release professional social gathering hug. Lotta rules.

So, women have to change how they dress, act, talk and everything else about their lives

And men just have to...not sexually assault women?

Seems like a lopsided sense of responsibility

Why can't men control themselves without controlling how women dress?

Not a lot of ways for men to change their dress. Uniforms at McDonalds. Uniform like clothing in professional environments. Women get to wear a large number of different types of dresses and pant suits. A man? Try showing up to your law gig at Hale & Dore in a Dashiki.

They do have to control themselves for women. I read of men peeing off the edge of oil rigs at sea until a woman shows up. She does, they have to change their behavior for her. Her presence creates for them what is a defacto hostile environment but they deal with it. Heck, I've been told by women to not use certain words they don't like even if not sexual and no male ever thought badly of the terms. Very hostile.

I would think changing one's behavior for the sexual other a lot more difficult than simply refraining from using makeup intended to create sexual allure in what is supposed to be a sterile environment. But men mostly do it.

Gorfias:
*snip*

Ok, maybe it's your grammar, but I'm having trouble parsing your posts, and why you seem to have the opinions you do.

Like, I get that some people are overzealous or oversensitive. That's a problem, sure. But you seem to fundamentally have a different understanding of how things work.

Gorfias:
I would think changing one's behavior for the sexual other a lot more difficult than simply refraining from using makeup intended to create sexual allure in what is supposed to be a sterile environment. But men mostly do it.

Well, first of all, people SHOULD change their "behaviour for the sexual other" to be more about consent and respect just on the sheer principle of it, because that's how it SHOULD work.

But lets break this down further.

1)
People are entitled to make themselves look better, whether it's clothes or makeup, because people have the right to express themselves.

People are NOT entitled to sex or sexual actions. Because that's a thing that personally affects the body and rights and freedom of another person.

Saying "well, women make themselves look pretty with makeup, why don't they just change that? It's easier than men trying to change their sexual behaviour!" is just victim-blaming people who have been sexually harassed or assaulted. It's along the lines of "why do people carry money in their wallet? It's easier to not carry money than it is for thieves to not steal money!"

People have a right to their own body. Trying to say "it's harder for men to control their behaviour" is basically saying that men are animals who can't control themselves.

2)
Society constantly tells women that they need to use makeup and look pretty when they go outside.

So to turn around and go "why are they wearing makeup, it'll turn men on, and they'll get harassed" ignores how much we as a society encourage women to wear makeup.

3)
If women stopped wearing makeup and trying to look pretty...There would still be plenty of sexual misconduct against them.

I give you...Highly conservative religious countries! Let's take hardcore muslim nations, where women are literally covered head to toe. Rape still happens there, and is even more under-reported and under-prosecuted than here in the west due to societal stigmas that women face there.

It's almost like the kinds of men who want to sexually assault women will always get horny enough to do it, regardless of how modest/un-pretty the woman makes themselves.

Conclusion:
Trying to pin this on women is just backwards and won't actually solve anything. Yes it's "harder" to change sexual attitudes. But it's the right solution.

Respect and Consent are NOT hard concepts, and we should make sure everyone understands them.

Gorfias:

trunkage:
I've been on the other side of this type sexual harassment stuff. Not the receiving - deal with the consequences. I had no training other than being a workplace mediator. I was asked by a boss to help work through situations. We had a small panel to discuss issue. Some of it was a one off. You didn't follow up this without another occurrence. Obviously, this would be more verbal in nature. An overt physical action, we never had to deal with. It was more people repeatedly not listening to the person requesting them to stop.

A part of a mediators job was not to take over proceedings, but to encourage the participants to take charge. You just keeping heads cool. You empower the "victim" to talk to the "perpetrator" to resolve issue before you get involved whatsoever

Good advice. Being a mediator sounds like an interesting type of gig to have had. I'm jealous. I am surprised the employer did not provide you with at least a skeletal outline of training. Documents, videos to get you started.

The training was more on keeping the people talking, focus on talking to the mediator to start with if they are super angry and how to document. You're meant to document everything beforehand as well. Sometimes you'd have 15/20 pages before you'd even start the meeting. You get lost very quickly. I haven't done it again since I left that job, but I haven't heard of a another company doing that.

Gorfias:
I read of men peeing off the edge of oil rigs at sea until a woman shows up. She does, they have to change their behavior for her. Her presence creates for them what is a defacto hostile environment but they deal with it.

She was probably the health and safety inspector.

undeadsuitor:

So, women have to change how they dress, act, talk and everything else about their lives

And men just have to...not sexually assault women?

Seems like a lopsided sense of responsibility

Why can't men control themselves without controlling how women dress?

Women need to tell men what screen savers to use?

Men have to police their very behavior lest they be destroyed but it's too much to ask women not to wear lipstick?

I mean, I largely want women free to wear lipstick. I also want to choose my desktop wallpaper without having my career destroyed. (with obvious caveats: a bank manager should be able to object to a woman dressing like a dominatrix to work and I sure shouldn't have porn as a screen saver. But a Molly Hatchet album cover?!?!?)

Xsjadoblayde:
A lady I conversed with a little time ago said something that has stuck with me since, and that is any female should be able to walk naked without fear of rape, people's expectations that they deserve to be raped or sexually harrassed/attacked. There is no excuse. Take some responsibility for your actions towards others.

I do think it cruel for a woman to wear a plunging neckline and then shame, or worse, any man that dare glimpse at her cleavage.

I personally am a well behaved male. Very socialized. If the rule is, do not glimpse at that cleavage or we'll kill your kids, I'm not gonna glimpse. But some consideration of male sexuality without the bullying would be appreciated.

Gorfias:

Not a lot of ways for men to change their dress. Uniforms at McDonalds. Uniform like clothing in professional environments. Women get to wear a large number of different types of dresses and pant suits. A man? Try showing up to your law gig at Hale & Dore in a Dashiki.

Wasn't women who made those rules, just saying...

aegix drakan:

1) People are entitled to make themselves look better, whether it's clothes or makeup, because people have the right to express themselves.

People are NOT entitled to sex or sexual actions. Because that's a thing that personally affects the body and rights and freedom of another person.

Saying "well, women make themselves look pretty with makeup, why don't they just change that? It's easier than men trying to change their sexual behaviour!" is just victim-blaming people who have been sexually harassed or assaulted. It's along the lines of "why do people carry money in their wallet? It's easier to not carry money than it is for thieves to not steal money!"

People have a right to their own body. Trying to say "it's harder for men to control their behaviour" is basically saying that men are animals who can't control themselves.

2) Society constantly tells women that they need to use makeup and look pretty when they go outside.

So to turn around and go "why are they wearing makeup, it'll turn men on, and they'll get harassed" ignores how much we as a society encourage women to wear makeup.

3) If women stopped wearing makeup and trying to look pretty...There would still be plenty of sexual misconduct against them.

Yes it's "harder" to change sexual attitudes. But it's the right solution.

1) Wrong. You are not entitled to dress/makeup as you will in a professional environment. Try dressing like a WW1 pilot to do people's taxes (or be a male nudist!). I think your boss will not like it.
2) Even if true, and I think it is not, I don't think today's women are too concerned with social mores.
3) And that misconduct should get the transgressor fired.

So does anyone else watch the Bible Reloaded youtube channel?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_Wh67H0vws

They are developing a miniseries of sorts that I think the average Peterson fan could stand to watch.

FTR I consider him to be a poor man's Trump.

Gorfias:

1) Wrong. You are not entitled to dress/makeup as you will in a professional environment. Try dressing like a WW1 pilot to do people?s taxes (or be a male nudist!). I think your boss will not like it.

Try not jumping to extremes. First, off, the nudist option is off the table because of public decency laws, and the pilot's outfit may just plain violate the office dress code. Secondly, in a professional environment makeup is just about mandatory for women so they have a presentable, clean, professional appearance, doubly so if they have to deal with people outside the company - clients/customers, people from another business-, it's about keeping up company appearance of a clean, professional workforce. That's not to say that you doll your face up to look like however you want, but lipstick, concealer, maybe a little blush, eyeliner, a little eyeshadow, all of that's necessary to ensure you look professional when you're a woman. Many offices have guidelines for acceptable makeup in their office dress codes.

2) Even if true, and I think it is not, I don?t think today?s women are too concerned with social mores.

Perhaps not consciously but subconsciously they might, otherwise the makeup industry wouldn't be anywhere near as big as it is.

3) And that misconduct should get the transgressor fired.

That still doesn't address that forcing women to stop wearing makeup does nothing to stop sexual assault. You are forcing women to change based on the reactions of men. You are - in essence - blaming women for the actions of men.

I do think it cruel for a woman to wear a plunging neckline and then shame, or worse, any man that dare glimpse at her cleavage.

Well, too goddamn bad.

Yes, by wearing revealing clothing she makes herself more inviting to being ogled at, but that still does not give you nor anyone else permission to stare at her cleavage.

But some consideration of male sexuality without the bullying would be appreciated.

Why?
Why does a man's sexuality deserve consideration when a woman chooses how to dress herself? What's even the appropriate response? How does one take "consideration" of male sexuality when dressing? "Oops, I'm going to give someone a boner, guess I can't wear this."

If lesbians can fucking behave themselves when around other women, then so can men. If gay men can handle themselves when around other men - even in a goddamn locker room-, then so can straight men.

Unless you are deliberately dressing to draw someone in on sex appeal, another person's sexuality does not deserve consideration when thinking about how to dress.

Gorfias:

They do have to control themselves for women. I read of men peeing off the edge of oil rigs at sea until a woman shows up. She does, they have to change their behavior for her. Her presence creates for them what is a defacto hostile environment but they deal with it.

Adhering to societal norms of polite behaviour is not a "hostile environment". Public urination is not a societal norm.

I understand that buddies on an oil rig may feel comfortable urinating into the sea together, because they'll spend plenty of time urinating next to each other at urinals. But that is an exception. Consider that when people are hiking in the wilderness, conventionally they find a secluded spot to relieve themselves because other hikers don't tend to appreciate watching others urinate. No-one likes watching drunks at night piss against walls and fire exits, etc.

Agema:
Adhering to societal norms of polite behaviour is not a "hostile environment". Public urination is not a societal norm.

I understand that buddies on an oil rig may feel comfortable urinating into the sea together, because they'll spend plenty of time urinating next to each other at urinals. But that is an exception. Consider that when people are hiking in the wilderness, conventionally they find a secluded spot to relieve themselves because other hikers don't tend to appreciate watching others urinate. No-one likes watching drunks at night piss against walls and fire exits, etc.

To add onto your point, the woman in question may have been someone important, and it's not a particularly good look to have your workers openly pissing into the ocean, or maybe it's a safety issue because there ain't much stopping you from falling right off the rig and into the ocean. "A woman shows up and men have to stop peeing off the edge of the oil rig" is such an extreme case it's not even worth mentioning because it's such a specific situation that doesn't apply to the greater majority of men. And you cannot honestly convince me that being told they've gotta piss in a toilet instead of off the edge is creating a "hostile work environment". You really need to come up with better examples, Gorfias, or maybe not jump to conclusions just because C happened after A happened.

Dr. Thrax:

in a professional environment makeup is just about mandatory for women so they have a presentable,

Try telling a woman, in a professional environment, that she is required to wear makeup. Hope your lawsuit insurance is paid up.

Yes, by wearing revealing clothing she makes herself more inviting to being ogled at, but that still does not give you nor anyone else permission to stare at her cleavage.

The question is, are we going to make the work place a totally sterile environment or not. If so, there are things women will need to do to hold up their end. This seems to be shocking to them.

And you cannot honestly convince me that being told they've gotta piss in a toilet instead of off the edge is creating a "hostile work environment". You really need to come up with better examples, Gorfias, or maybe not jump to conclusions just because C happened after A happened.

See bellow..

Agema:

Adhering to societal norms of polite behaviour is not a "hostile environment". Public urination is not a societal norm.

Peeing off the dock was a social norm for this large number of men in this particular environment. They changed their behavior to suit a single woman that was added to their environment. My point in this case is: men change their behavior to suit women. Women should not be shocked that they need to hold their end up to.

But I also wrote:

"Heck, I've been told by women to not use certain words they don't like even if not sexual and no male ever thought badly of the terms. Very hostile."

The men in the room were shocked when the woman told us the non-sexual term not to use. That is hostile. Change screen savers as Frazeta is too sexual. More hostility. And us men have to deal with it. And we do so because we have to.

image

I personally do not want a sterile work environment. I met my wife at work. But if it is going to happen, I expect women to hold their end up. If I have to change my behavior (I already do.) so do they.

Gorfias:
Peeing off the dock was a social norm for this large number of men in this particular environment. They changed their behavior to suit a single woman that was added to their environment.

Do you think they'd pee off a dock if the CEO were visiting the platform? Do you think they'd pee off the dock in New York with anyone - male or female - around to look (especially on company time and money)?

Of course they would not. It's nothing to do with a woman per se, it's do with an outsider to an insular group with an idiosyncratic way of doing things. In much the same way, we might all talk and joke with friends in ways we absolutely would not in a workplace or the street, because we know perfectly well our in-group specific activities do not translate well to wider society.

One can look at it another way - how excluding is it for someone, sharing that workplace, who should be an equal part of the team, to be made an outsider in this way? Surely that's a lot more hostile: "you're not one of us, and you can't be."

My point in this case is: men change their behavior to suit women. Women should not be shocked that they need to hold their end up to.

You can find endless articles about how women have routinely changed their behaviour to suit men, to fit into male-dominated groups, etc. See the above: how many women do you think over the years have gone along with or tolerated behaviour they thought should not occur in order to fit in? Isn't that what much of the current ructions (#MeToo) are about? The increasing death of putting up with things like getting their arses slapped?

Although in practice we're all changing our behaviour to fit into all sorts of groups to some extent. It's the heart of civil society.

Change screen savers as Frazeta is too sexual.

Well, a load of women in skintight uniforms and poses exaggerating their tits, asses and thighs is not exactly lacking in sexual content. To say, one might normally suspect a picture of (space) fighter pilots to accentuate qualities appropriate to fighter pilots; well rounded curvaciousness is not usually high on that list.

I know I'd get told to remove that screensaver at work.

Agema:
In much the same way, we might all talk and joke with friends in ways we absolutely would not in a workplace ...

When a woman is not around in the workplace, men do talk differently. And they do change their behavior when women are around. They have to watch what they say for fear of sanction. Their presence has therefor made the work place defacto hostile. Nothing men cannot take but that is not the same thing as saying they've had no negative impact at all.

You can find endless articles about how women have routinely changed their behaviour to suit men, to fit into male-dominated groups, etc. See the above: how many women do you think over the years have gone along with or tolerated behaviour they thought should not occur in order to fit in? Isn't that what much of the current ructions (#MeToo) are about? The increasing death of putting up with things like getting their arses slapped?

Although in practice we're all changing our behaviour to fit into all sorts of groups to some extent. It's the heart of civil society.

That sounds correct. This all started with outrage at Peterson suggesting that if the workplace is to become a sexually sterile place, women will need to make changes too, such as not wearing lipstick. Why does this seem to be beyond the pale when so much else has had to be done in the past?

Well, a load of women in skintight uniforms and poses exaggerating their tits, asses and thighs is not exactly lacking in sexual content. To say, one might normally suspect a picture of (space) fighter pilots to accentuate qualities appropriate to fighter pilots; well rounded curvaciousness is not usually high on that list.

I know I'd get told to remove that screensaver at work.

And I know, depending upon the environment, of people that had calendars with nudes on them. I think they immediately summon a firing squad for an offense like that now.

Gorfias:

When a woman is not around in the workplace, men do talk differently. And they do change their behavior when women are around. They have to watch what they say for fear of sanction. Their presence has therefor made the work place defacto hostile. Nothing men cannot take but that is not the same thing as saying they've had no negative impact at all.

You should note that in the scenario you're describing above, the men have changed their behaviour not at the demand of the women, but because they fear sanction. The women have not done anything-- made no demand-- and yet the women are blamed for the change anyway.

((On a side-note, I wouldn't speak generally of "men" talking differently as if this is a uniform rule; I behave pretty much the same around male colleagues and female colleagues. A degree of professionalism is expected with all coworkers; I'm at work)).

Silvanus:

Gorfias:

When a woman is not around in the workplace, men do talk differently. And they do change their behavior when women are around. They have to watch what they say for fear of sanction. Their presence has therefor made the work place defacto hostile. Nothing men cannot take but that is not the same thing as saying they've had no negative impact at all.

You should note that in the scenario you're describing above, the men have changed their behaviour not at the demand of the women, but because they fear sanction. The women have not done anything-- made no demand-- and yet the women are blamed for the change anyway.

((On a side-note, I wouldn't speak generally of "men" talking differently as if this is a uniform rule; I behave pretty much the same around male colleagues and female colleagues. A degree of professionalism is expected with all coworkers; I'm at work)).

Women have made no demands? I was in the service when a woman almost destroyed an man's career as she did not like the term male and female to describe certain types of test leads. She seemed pretty demanding to me. Other men promised to start calling them innies and outies so she relented. (Guy was going to OTS. Had she made an official complaint, even if not resulting in a change, would have cost him his OTS slot for an investigation).

Where I work now, we would refer to a particular type of non-hostile reminder being called a "tickle". That is not sexual. Even so, it was a woman that demanded we stop using that term.

Not demanding?

Anecdotes are not data, source-less acedotes are even less.

And definitely not a defense of the guy that thinks ancient cultures knew about DNA because their art depicted two snakes fucking.

Gorfias:

Silvanus:

Gorfias:

When a woman is not around in the workplace, men do talk differently. And they do change their behavior when women are around. They have to watch what they say for fear of sanction. Their presence has therefor made the work place defacto hostile. Nothing men cannot take but that is not the same thing as saying they've had no negative impact at all.

You should note that in the scenario you're describing above, the men have changed their behaviour not at the demand of the women, but because they fear sanction. The women have not done anything-- made no demand-- and yet the women are blamed for the change anyway.

((On a side-note, I wouldn't speak generally of "men" talking differently as if this is a uniform rule; I behave pretty much the same around male colleagues and female colleagues. A degree of professionalism is expected with all coworkers; I'm at work)).

Women have made no demands? I was in the service when a woman almost destroyed an man's career as she did not like the term male and female to describe certain types of test leads. She seemed pretty demanding to me. Other men promised to start calling them innies and outies so she relented. (Guy was going to OTS. Had she made an official complaint, even if not resulting in a change, would have cost him his OTS slot for an investigation).

Where I work now, we would refer to a particular type of non-hostile reminder being called a "tickle". That is not sexual. Even so, it was a woman that demanded we stop using that term.

Not demanding?

And if a man ruined a woman's career it would be okay?

Or do you not have an anecdote for that?

Because I have lots.

Gorfias:

Women have made no demands?

I was talking only about the scenario you described, as I said.

Gorfias:
I was in the service when a woman almost destroyed an man's career as she did not like the term male and female to describe certain types of test leads. She seemed pretty demanding to me. Other men promised to start calling them innies and outies so she relented. (Guy was going to OTS. Had she made an official complaint, even if not resulting in a change, would have cost him his OTS slot for an investigation).

Where I work now, we would refer to a particular type of non-hostile reminder being called a "tickle". That is not sexual. Even so, it was a woman that demanded we stop using that term.

Not demanding?

And you consider these demands to have been made on behalf of all womankind?

You are, after all, using them to justify a demand you want to make of all womankind.

If anyone wants to talk about how tragic it is that men have to keep it in their pants, we can talk about how my 50 year old former (married) co worker of mine hit on an underage part timer. If you really want to push the "men are victims because they need to show actual fucking restraint" horseshit.

erttheking:
If anyone wants to talk about how tragic it is that men have to keep it in their pants, we can talk about how my 50 year old former (married) co worker of mine hit on an underage part timer. If you really want to push the ?men are victims because they need to show actual fucking restraint? horseshit.

Clearly it was the underage girls fault

She was wearing lipstick and a blouse (the sexiest article of clothing known to man)

Silvanus:

And you consider these demands to have been made on behalf of all womankind?

You are, after all, using them to justify a demand you want to make of all womankind.

Do all men have to act like they are in Chinese school (no more laughing no more fun, if you show your teeth or tongue...)

undeadsuitor:

And if a man ruined a woman's career it would be okay?

Or do you not have an anecdote for that?

Because I have lots.

Why would it be? While JP says we'll only have radical egalitarian outcomes in a very totalitarian society. I agree. What he says is that what he wants is greater fairness. Why would it be fair to ruin a woman's career?

What I'm writing is, it is not fair to ruin a man's life over trivial matters. This seems beyond the pale for many Feminists. There appears to be bone crunching shock at the very idea that there are any changes women should make in the name of fairness. Well, given that women have greater social, political and economic power than men, yeah, I think they should.

Gorfias:

Silvanus:

And you consider these demands to have been made on behalf of all womankind?

You are, after all, using them to justify a demand you want to make of all womankind.

Do all men have to act like they are in Chinese school (no more laughing no more fun, if you show your teeth or tongue...)

You know, as a man, I'm more than a tad bit offended that you consider men not being able to act like sex crazed animals to be indicative that we aren't allowed to have any fun ever. We have meaning in our lives beyond sexual desires you know.

erttheking:

Gorfias:

Silvanus:

And you consider these demands to have been made on behalf of all womankind?

You are, after all, using them to justify a demand you want to make of all womankind.

Do all men have to act like they are in Chinese school (no more laughing no more fun, if you show your teeth or tongue...)

You know, as a man, I'm more than a tad bit offended that you consider men not being able to act like sex crazed animals to be indicative that we aren't allowed to have any fun ever. We have meaning in our lives beyond sexual desires you know.

It isn't just sex. The men I work with tell stories of bullying that are alarming. EDIT: I did mention above being told I cannot use the term "tickle" regarding friendly reminders that a thing needs to be done. To me, that is non-sexual and the demand a very hostile one. Another poster helpfully explained (sarcasm) that anecdotes don't matter.

Gorfias:

erttheking:

Gorfias:

Do all men have to act like they are in Chinese school (no more laughing no more fun, if you show your teeth or tongue...)

You know, as a man, I'm more than a tad bit offended that you consider men not being able to act like sex crazed animals to be indicative that we aren't allowed to have any fun ever. We have meaning in our lives beyond sexual desires you know.

It isn't just sex. The men I work with tell stories of bullying that are alarming.

Got any specific examples?

I mean your anecdotes still aren't proof of anything, but it'll at least be amusing to hear how a woman was bullying men by asking them to look at her eyes and not her chest or refrain from calling her "babe " or not email softcore porn around the office.

Avnger:

Got any specific examples?

I already mentioned the test leads and the "tickle" reminders. My biggest problem at this time? In 2 different groups are women who are NOT senior yet boss people around while they fail to do their fair share. Look at them cross eyed and you're looking at complaints pushed uphill. In our gynocentric society, the men will then be told to just do what they can to placate these bullies. This has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with exploiting gender power.

The Gynocentrism has to stop. Someone needs to take these women aside and remind them that they are not the boss of anyone.

Gorfias:
It isn't just sex. The men I work with tell stories of bullying that are alarming. EDIT: I did mention above being told I cannot use the term "tickle" regarding friendly reminders that a thing needs to be done. To me, that is non-sexual and the demand a very hostile one.

Did you ask why she didn't like you using the word "tickle"?
And have you ever thought of the possibility that your co-workers might be exaggerating in their stories? Either exaggerating to downplay what they were doing or overstate the woman's reaction, either way making them more a victim of bullying rather than a simple request.

Another poster helpfully explained (sarcasm) that anecdotes don't matter.

Anecdotes aren't proof of a larger trend, which is what you're trying to act like your anecdotes prove, that women create "hostile environments" and demand that men change, despite you demanding that women change based on your anecdotes.

Dr. Thrax:

Did you ask why she didn't like you using the word "tickle"?

She stated that it causes her to imagine someone being tickled and that bothers her.

And have you ever thought of the possibility that your co-workers might be exaggerating in their stories? Either exaggerating to downplay what they were doing or overstate the woman's reaction, either way making them more a victim of bullying rather than a simple request.

I know the 2 women. I have had my own run ins with them. They have issues. Example: I got promoted and got an office. One woman was outraged as she has been with the organization longer than me. Longevity is irrelevant. Your position is what matters. She actually had the opportunity to climb the ladder and declined. Sounded like more work. She just wants cash and prizes rather than work.

Anecdotes aren't proof of a larger trend, which is what you're trying to act like your anecdotes prove, that women create "hostile environments" and demand that men change, despite you demanding that women change based on your anecdotes.

Women NEVER create a hostile environment? Not in my experience and that's the point.

Anecdotes are not conclusive. I don't know what really is as we can argue about studies and stats endlessly too. But anecdotes are about our own lived experience. They matter.

I think JP would agree: for men and women to get along in the work place, to have something closer to fairness, both sexes will need to change. Not just men. And that appears to be what many in this forum find beyond the pale.

Gorfias:

Avnger:

Got any specific examples?

I already mentioned the test leads and the "tickle" reminders. My biggest problem at this time? In 2 different groups are women who are NOT senior yet boss people around while they fail to do their fair share. Look at them cross eyed and you're looking at complaints pushed uphill. In our gynocentric society, the men will then be told to just do what they can to placate these bullies. This has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with exploiting gender power.

The Gynocentrism has to stop. Someone needs to take these women aside and remind them that they are not the boss of anyone.

So you do not have any examples.

Gorfias:

erttheking:

Gorfias:

Do all men have to act like they are in Chinese school (no more laughing no more fun, if you show your teeth or tongue...)

You know, as a man, I'm more than a tad bit offended that you consider men not being able to act like sex crazed animals to be indicative that we aren't allowed to have any fun ever. We have meaning in our lives beyond sexual desires you know.

It isn't just sex. The men I work with tell stories of bullying that are alarming.

And the story I tell of a man hitting on a girl who's just shy of a third of his age is also very alarming and I know which one I give more of a shit about and I know which one you ducked.

Saelune:

Gorfias:

Avnger:

Got any specific examples?

I already mentioned the test leads and the "tickle" reminders. My biggest problem at this time? In 2 different groups are women who are NOT senior yet boss people around while they fail to do their fair share. Look at them cross eyed and you're looking at complaints pushed uphill. In our gynocentric society, the men will then be told to just do what they can to placate these bullies. This has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with exploiting gender power.

The Gynocentrism has to stop. Someone needs to take these women aside and remind them that they are not the boss of anyone.

So you do not have any examples.

That's 2 above but for a more specific example of what one to the bully women do:

Example: women watches monitor. Sees a node go down. Rather than get off her butt, she tells a coworker to track it down and fix it as she is busy staying on her butt. This happens repeatedly. Finally they push back and tell her her job is not to just watch a monitor but to do her share and find and fix this stuff. She goes to the Gynocentric boss, complains, he has the guys in the office and tells them that while she has no right to complain about them, could they please do what they can to placate her to avoid trouble. They can say no to the boss but you do not want to displease a boss. At least I avoid it.

erttheking:

And the story I tell of a man hitting on a girl who's just shy of a third of his age is also very alarming and I know which one I give more of a shit about and I know which one you ducked.

If someone is ducking something, it is you. I've posted quite a bit. And I'm not saying we should not care about women's issues. I'm shocked and outraged that you seem to think this a winner take all competition that allows you to not give a shit about men's issues.

Not a good way to be part of the better world you would create.

Gorfias:
.

I think JP would agree: for men and women to get along in the work place, to have something closer to fairness, both sexes will need to change. Not just men. And that appears to be what many in this forum find beyond the pale.

Except every change placed on men you've seen you've treated as murder of the highest degree.

So which is is? Do both sexes need to change or is men changing in the workplace an awful thing?

Gorfias:

erttheking:

And the story I tell of a man hitting on a girl who's just shy of a third of his age is also very alarming and I know which one I give more of a shit about and I know which one you ducked.

If someone is ducking something, it is you. I've posted quite a bit. And I'm not saying we should not care about women's issues. I'm shocked and outraged that you seem to think this a winner take all competition that allows you to not give a shit about men's issues.

Not a good way to be part of the better world you would create.

....Don't you fucking dare. I care about men's issues. I care about the fact that men are far more likely to commit suicide than women, that courts tend to be biased against them in custody cases, that they're more likely to be the victims of gang violence.

You know. I care about REAL men's issues. Not this MRA shit about how you can't have women showing off their tits and ass on your desktop at work, and let's be perfectly clear, even if you were in an all male environment I would advocate that that shit shouldn't fly, that reads like an anti-suffrage propaganda poster complaining about how women are emasculating men.

Gorfias:

Saelune:

Gorfias:

I already mentioned the test leads and the "tickle" reminders. My biggest problem at this time? In 2 different groups are women who are NOT senior yet boss people around while they fail to do their fair share. Look at them cross eyed and you're looking at complaints pushed uphill. In our gynocentric society, the men will then be told to just do what they can to placate these bullies. This has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with exploiting gender power.

The Gynocentrism has to stop. Someone needs to take these women aside and remind them that they are not the boss of anyone.

So you do not have any examples.

That's 2 above but for a more specific example of what one to the bully women do:

Example: women watches monitor. Sees a node go down. Rather than get off her butt, she tells a coworker to track it down and fix it as she is busy staying on her butt. This happens repeatedly. Finally they push back and tell her her job is not to just watch a monitor but to do her share and find and fix this stuff. She goes to the Gynocentric boss, complains, he has the guys in the office and tells them that while she has no right to complain about them, could they please do what they can to placate her to avoid trouble. They can say no to the boss but you do not want to displease a boss. At least I avoid it.

erttheking:

And the story I tell of a man hitting on a girl who's just shy of a third of his age is also very alarming and I know which one I give more of a shit about and I know which one you ducked.

If someone is ducking something, it is you. I've posted quite a bit. And I'm not saying we should not care about women's issues. I'm shocked and outraged that you seem to think this a winner take all competition that allows you to not give a shit about men's issues.

Not a good way to be part of the better world you would create.

A man runs for office, says disparaging things about women constantly, sexually assaults women, treats them as shit, claims he would fuck his own daughter. He becomes President of the US.

erttheking:
I know which one I give more of a shit about

I care about men's issues.

Then act like it. Again, it is not a winner take all competition. We need to care about the needs of both genders to make a fairer work environment.

Saelune:
A man runs for office, says disparaging things about women constantly, sexually assaults women, treats them as shit, claims he would fuck his own daughter. He becomes President of the US.

And yet women still live longer then men.

Again, can we just agree both genders have issues and there is no good reason to ignore one over the other. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. That's what Jordan is telling us.

undeadsuitor:

Except every change placed on men you've seen you've treated as murder of the highest degree.

Have I? I think I've written a number of times that men can take it.

So which is is? Do both sexes need to change or is men changing in the workplace an awful thing?

Depending upon what we want in terms of fairness, both genders need to change. Unilateral change of men just being exploited utilities is that bad.

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