Why are we afraid of our Fellow Citizens and not afraid of others?

The Arrest of two men by Philadelphia Police called by the Barista of a Starbucks for them doing what apparently everyone does at a Starbucks.

Former White House Staffer had the cops called on him for moving into his own apartment.

A young teen trying to get directions from a woman is shot at by her husband when she overreacts and yells that the teen is trying to rob her.

Three female friends had the cops called on them, complete with Helicopter on the scene, as an elderly woman mistook them for burglarizing a home. They were staying at the place legally as it is an Airbnb.

Two brothers had the cops called on them for attending the College tour they signed up for.

Police officer pulls a gun on a man buying mentos, a candy mint.

Two men (one an eight year member and another one using a four day guest pass) are escorted out of LA Fitness, even after proving they were in the gym legally.

A man who is laying down on the floor as handcuffs are being put on him, not resisting, is kicked in the head by another officer who arrives on the scene

Desmond Marrow's arrest

I was often told as a youth, and even as an adult... that if you do nothing wrong, nothing wrong will happen to you. We're seeing more and more that this isn't the case. Nor was it ever the case.

Why does the choice of a 'dangerous' job supersede the "misfortune" of being born as minorities? Whose very existence others consider threatening to the point that unlawful stops, arrests, and even shootings can be handwaved because it's so tough to be a cop.

I don't think any civilian will get out of jail by shooting an officer even though social science proves it's still hard to be a minority in America. Literal Medical Students believe in systematic differences between the races that will allow them to care more tenderly for a white patient, and give less attention to a black one. And as quiet as it's kept, Crime is actually going down in America,

And INB4 someone will instinctively point to Chicago's anomalous statistics, I would invite you to realize that hate crimes have been steadily rising over the past few years.

The number of hate crimes triggered by bias against a person's racial or ethnic background rose to 3,489 from 3,310 a year earlier, the FBI report said. Half of those episodes were motivated by racism against black people. One in 5 victims were targeted because of religious bias, while 1 in 6 were victimized because of biases related to sexual orientation, the report said.

Also, another response that is trotted out often is "Why don't you talk about all the goods that cops do?". Likewise, why don't these people always have to bring up Chicago and Black on Black crime to justify cops going out of control bring up all the good that black citizens do?

How those two men from Starbucks instead of getting a payday decided to accept one dollar each and ask the city to make a fund to create Entrepreneurs in the community through schooling? How the Waffle House hero set up a gofundme for those victims who lost their lives in the shooting? Anyone of these heroes who are trying to use the world of business to change the socioeconomic pitfalls that leads so many people astray?

And I think that's the main thrust of this thread. The perceived bad that exists in all races, peoples, and creeds are overblown in the perceptions of others towards the Black Community and is used to paint the race entire. As everyone must answer for the crimes of the individual. If you think that's false and that doesn't happen for the black community, well, answer me this... Were you one of the people who were ready to trot out the stats of Chicago instead of realizing American Citizens are having their rights overran due to bias?

No one will ever say there aren't blacks who commit crime, that they don't exist and they aren't there. They will always be there. As long as Humans exist, you will have the criminal element in that population.

But the crimes of the black community are used to embody the race. The idea of 'I need to fear this guy in New York because of what I heard in Chicago. But I don't need to fear this white man ever even though the majority of Active shooters (around 63%) are white men.'

I see a lot of people bemoaning SJWs and Diversity being forced on people. I get the distaste. But when a mother joins the rising trend of people being so scared that minorities are near them that they have to call the cops, we have to admit there needs to be some education.

A lot of these incidents, cops were called and had to do a duty. I don't have an issue with most of them (although that Marrow incident was over the top). But the long and short of this is that a good deal of these incidents happened because of a fundamental breakdown in communication. Fear led the way and cops were the only way to deal with the 'others'. It's going to lead to serious problems. And I just want to know why.

It starts with r and ends with ism and there's a lot of money to be made with it.

Like, I don't have an answer with how to try and fix it, because it's freaking absurd at this point:
image

Meanwhile, the NRA is actively promoting a gun that looks like a cellphone when you're drawing it as a self defense weapon.

How do you argue against that? It's blatant on its face.

Because there are too many stupid and/or ignorant people out there. That's my opinion, anyway, I'm more than a little cynical after years of this shit...

altnameJag:
It starts with r and ends with ism and there's a lot of money to be made with it.

I got this one. Redism? Rentism? Radicalism? Riflism? Rodeoism? Realism? No?
Damn. I can't get it. If only it was widespread and emdded in our culture, I might have got it.

A few nitpicks in your short post about racism still existing, duh.

ObsidianJones:
And INB4 someone will instinctively point to Chicago's anomalous statistics, I would invite you to realize that hate crimes have been steadily rising over the past few years.

I think that its worth pointing out that, as the article states

"The FBI report, which collects information on the offenders in the hate crimes tallied in the previous year, found that the largest share ? 46 percent ? were white. About a quarter of the people who carried out hate crimes were black."

Meaning adjusted for demographics, whites are actually under represented as perpetrators of hate crimes. Important to note, since the rest of your post paints a different picture - unintended, I'm sure.

I also have the sneaking suspicion that at least some of this is down to hate crime laws getting sharper and more of them being reported - think rape in Sweden - although that doesn't explain a consistent rise over 2 years by that much.

ObsidianJones:
Also, another response that is trotted out often is "Why don't you talk about all the goods that cops do?". Likewise, why don't these people always have to bring up Chicago and Black on Black crime to justify cops going out of control bring up all the good that black citizens do?

Maybe I read your post wrong but it isn't exactly clear to me who you mean by "these people". Especially in the context of the point you're trying to make its important that you do. Name your perpertrator, otherwise you're just promoting more stigmas, uncertainty and fear against the evil, ill defined other.

Kinda like we do against minorities. You see my point, hopefully.

ObsidianJones:
No one will ever say there aren't blacks who commit crime, that they don't exist and they aren't there. They will always be there. As long as Humans exist, you will have the criminal element in that population.

But the crimes of the black community are used to embody the race. The idea of 'I need to fear this guy in New York because of what I heard in Chicago. But I don't need to fear this white man ever even though the majority of Active shooters (around 63%) are white men.'

This is the only bit of your post which I don't agree with in principle (the above really was just nitpicking as I said, what follows is not).

Rolling out this old, dishonest and corny preaching about how all races and cultures have criminals isn't helpful. Anyone opposed to your overall point in principle will jump on it, and rightly so. The fact that all races and cultures produce violence or crime does not just delete the equally indisputible fact that minorities in the USA are overrepresented in most crimes, sometimes by staggering amounts.

After all, I could do the same thing to nullify all those stories you posted further up. Other races and the police being discriminatory toward minorities? Well buddy, sorry, but can't we just accept that all races and places have their bad apples? Just like some people will always be criminal, some people will always be racist, and theres bound to be some police men who are too. Just an unfortunate, tragic fact of life, but lets not examine the statistics or whatever, we can't use it to embody the police force!

Its the same argument but doesn't quite have the same ring to it now, right?

And not even a paragraph later you drop the corniness to jump back into statistics, presumbly because these specific ones about mass shootings put your point into a better light while others don't. Thats very dishonest of you. Unfortunately it still doesn't work. Firstly, the 63% figure only comes into account when you count starting from 1900. Even without pausing to consider the changes in demographic over the last 118 years, you'll see what I mean when I say thats not the most relevant way of finding out whether fear of African Americans today can be justified by what proportion of mass shootings they commit. Counting from a more relevant 1982, the percentage of white perpertrators drops down to 54%. Meaning, in more timely terms, they are as so often under and not overrepresented. After following back the 54% figure to its root, I also noticed it lumps hispanics in under "white". The 63% figure, to be fair, does not.

(Just to be clear, I don't think racists are born by meticulously examining crime statistics, its more likely the other way round in most cases, I just picked this apart to point out why your argumentation doesn't work.)

Really, if we're going to do this lets do it properly. The last bit really made me a bit mad. I agree with the rest but there it falls apart. Whether intentionally or not you fell into the trap of doing the exact same thing your political opponents do - appealing on an emotional line while subtly sneaking in spin doctored statistics that harm proper discussion and promote the kind of uneasy fear you're presumbly trying to fight. (Others would rather redirect it, but eh, different topic.)

ObsidianJones:

I don't think any civilian will get out of jail by shooting an officer even though social science proves it's still hard to be a minority in America. Literal Medical Students believe in systematic differences between the races that will allow them to care more tenderly for a white patient, and give less attention to a black one. And as quiet as it's kept, Crime is actually going down in America,

A bit of a nitpick, but If you read the article, there ARE systemic differences between the races (according to that article at least). Whites are less susceptible to heart disease and stroke. Also, the false beliefs they had dont seem to be based on malice or anything. Thicker skin, age slower, blood coagulates faster. All of those sounds like positive traits to me. Also, it was medical students, not doctors. The majority of experienced physicians prescribed painkillers. Keep in mind, im taking the word of your article, im not a doctor.

Two, undertreating black patients for pain may very well have saved their lives. Painkillers are rapidly becoming the new heroin in the US.

https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/overdose.html

- 40% of all opoid deaths (which include things like heroin) were from prescription painkillers in the US in 2016

- non-hispanic whites are more likely to overdose on prescription painkillers than non-hispanic blacks.

- deaths from prescription painkillers has increased 5x since 1999 (and that rate is only climbing higher)

And I think that's the main thrust of this thread. The perceived bad that exists in all races, peoples, and creeds are overblown in the perceptions of others towards the Black Community and is used to paint the race entire. As everyone must answer for the crimes of the individual.

Thats...racism in a nutshell, it overblows the perceived bad.

But the crimes of the black community

and latino, jewish, white, muslims, and a bunch of others

are used to embody the race. The idea of 'I need to fear this guy in New York because of what I heard in Chicago. But I don't need to fear this white man ever even though the majority of Active shooters (around 63%) are white men.'

Well, that is silly. The crime statistics of Chicago apply only to Chicago, NY has its own stats.

I see a lot of people bemoaning SJWs and Diversity being forced on people. I get the distaste. But when a mother joins the rising trend of people being so scared that minorities are near them that they have to call the cops, we have to admit there needs to be some education.

A lot of these incidents, cops were called and had to do a duty. I don't have an issue with most of them (although that Marrow incident was over the top). But the long and short of this is that a good deal of these incidents happened because of a fundamental breakdown in communication. Fear led the way and cops were the only way to deal with the 'others'. It's going to lead to serious problems. And I just want to know why.

You are right, there is a lot of hate/fear and that hate/fear has been increasing. Problem is, everyone is circling the wagons and is convinced everyone else is out to get them. What caused it? I dont know. Trump being elected certainly did not help as it legitimize white racism, but he is more of a symptom than a cause. Internet/social media now gives everyone a megaphone/platform from which to push their views, and the more radical elements tend to be the loudest and therefore get the most coverage.

As for communication, welcome to life. Do you know how many problems in business, government, hell even relationships could have been solved through proper communication? I think with emergency services (like law enforcement) they have to treat every call like its the real thing. Problem being, they are getting their information from regular civilians who can either lie out of malice or are simply mistaken. Even then, the information is filtered down to officers through dispatchers who may filter out information. Not intentionally filter out important information, mind you, but the more intermediates between you and the info, the more info that can be lost.

altnameJag:
Meanwhile, the NRA is actively promoting a gun that looks like a cellphone when you're drawing it as a self defense weapon.

What the fuck?

That is just the most tone-deaf advertisement I've seen in a while. I mean...an unarmed man gets shot a dozen or so times by police in his own backyard when they mistake the cellphone in his hand for a gun. What's the NRA do? "Hey, check out this great new handgun that's disguised as a cellphone! Nothing bad will ever come of this."

bastardofmelbourne:

altnameJag:
Meanwhile, the NRA is actively promoting a gun that looks like a cellphone when you're drawing it as a self defense weapon.

What the fuck?

That is just the most tone-deaf advertisement I've seen in a while. I mean...an unarmed man gets shot a dozen or so times by police in his own backyard when they mistake the cellphone in his hand for a gun. What's the NRA do? "Hey, check out this great new handgun that's disguised as a cellphone! Nothing bad will ever come of this."

Given the NRA as a lobby group, and gun makers in general, benefit from shootings and panic buying of accessories, I'm pretty sure what they'll do is laugh all the way to the bank like they always do.

bastardofmelbourne:

altnameJag:
Meanwhile, the NRA is actively promoting a gun that looks like a cellphone when you're drawing it as a self defense weapon.

What the fuck?

That is just the most tone-deaf advertisement I've seen in a while. I mean...an unarmed man gets shot a dozen or so times by police in his own backyard when they mistake the cellphone in his hand for a gun. What's the NRA do? "Hey, check out this great new handgun that's disguised as a cellphone! Nothing bad will ever come of this."

I mean, it's great cover for the police. The NRA just got "arms dealer to Iran to fund right wing terrorist/revolutionary groups, friend of Manuel Noriega" Oliver North to be its next president after all. Subtlety is for the weak.

I wish I had the answer to that question (it would possibly give us a starting point to address the problem). By personal experience, I only can assume it's human flaws (being prejudiced and judging by looks alone) that American culture manifest in a racist way (the looks on the race have more weight than the looks of the clothes when judging people). I certainly don't know what makes them act that way towards black people. Have they never met with black people? Have they only met black people when they were robbed? Do they only hear about black people when they hear about black crimes from the TV or gossip? What consistent event (or lack of) during their whole life made them think that law-abiding black people are the exception, and not the rule?

bastardofmelbourne:

altnameJag:
Meanwhile, the NRA is actively promoting a gun that looks like a cellphone when you're drawing it as a self defense weapon.

What the fuck?

That is just the most tone-deaf advertisement I've seen in a while. I mean...an unarmed man gets shot a dozen or so times by police in his own backyard when they mistake the cellphone in his hand for a gun. What's the NRA do? "Hey, check out this great new handgun that's disguised as a cellphone! Nothing bad will ever come of this."

You know what the NRA says: The only way to stop a bad guy with a cellphone...

bastardofmelbourne:

altnameJag:
Meanwhile, the NRA is actively promoting a gun that looks like a cellphone when you're drawing it as a self defense weapon.

What the fuck?

That is just the most tone-deaf advertisement I've seen in a while. I mean...an unarmed man gets shot a dozen or so times by police in his own backyard when they mistake the cellphone in his hand for a gun. What's the NRA do? "Hey, check out this great new handgun that's disguised as a cellphone! Nothing bad will ever come of this."

You're forgetting a key point though. The NRA markets to white people; you know, the ones who can walk around town with AR-15s strapped to their backs or in their arms without the police caring. The people being shot for holding cellphones, children's toys, or nothing at all in their hands are black.

I really don't know how many times I can hear the same "Black people commit crime, so black people need to accept being treated like criminals even when they're not and shut up." arguments and remain interested.

Side note: As a fraction of overall population, police disproportionately shoot blacks. But criminality doesn't neatly match overall population racial lines. Shouldn't we be comparing police shootings by race to criminals (or even specifically violent criminals) by race to see if police are being disproportionately violent to certain races?

Smithnikov:
I really don't know how many times I can hear the same "Black people commit crime, so black people need to accept being treated like criminals even when they're not and shut up." arguments and remain interested.

Replace "black" and "crime" with "men" and "rape" and watch how many suddenly switch sides on that one.

CaitSeith:

bastardofmelbourne:

altnameJag:
Meanwhile, the NRA is actively promoting a gun that looks like a cellphone when you're drawing it as a self defense weapon.

What the fuck?

That is just the most tone-deaf advertisement I've seen in a while. I mean...an unarmed man gets shot a dozen or so times by police in his own backyard when they mistake the cellphone in his hand for a gun. What's the NRA do? "Hey, check out this great new handgun that's disguised as a cellphone! Nothing bad will ever come of this."

You know what the NRA says: The only way to stop a bad guy with a cellphone...

...is to turn your cellphone into gun like its a Decepticon apparently

Schadrach:

Smithnikov:
I really don't know how many times I can hear the same "Black people commit crime, so black people need to accept being treated like criminals even when they're not and shut up." arguments and remain interested.

Replace "black" and "crime" with "men" and "rape" and watch how many suddenly switch sides on that one.

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:
*snip*

Sorry to respond to you so late. The combination of real life stuff sidelining me yesterday necessitated this tardy response.

First off, I can't put a word to "These people" as it comes in all shapes and sizes. A knee jerk reaction would be "racists", "bigots", and other not to friendly words come to my mind the most easy. But I have enough sense to know that it's not easily lumped in as such.

There are perfectly decent people who I've met who are absolutely shocked that I'm a good person, because of everything they see on the news about blacks and crime. A woman who leaps into my mind just thinking about this really has no cause to look at anything deeper than what someone she likes tells her. She's white. She's rich. She's beautiful. There is no bigger "The world is my oyster" card in this life.

She wasn't exposed to police officer corruption because she never seen it. Cops are always kind to her, so they must be that way to everyone.

So, because not every bad person isn't aware, I can't lump them into one readily accessible epithet. These people are people who try to present the other side's fault in situations to lessen the burden or culpability of those in question. In this case, the police.

Now we come to another reason it took so long for me to respond. Honestly, how you phrase your 'debates' actually just made me want to give up on the conversation with you, as your descriptors really have no place in this conversation. They are adversarial in nature, making me want to consider you an adversary. Such a mindset would not breed open conversation, so some time off was needed.

But to the matter, yes, I found it very necessary to acknowledge that I know blacks commit crime like all races do. Because there are a quite a number of people who think one side asking for fair policing that doesn't come from violence and overblown measures is tantamount to saying that all black people are innocent. No, not all black people are. There are real criminals in the mix to these people I listed who had a disproportional response placed upon them.

While Walter Scott was a tragedy, he did commit a crime. He ran from the officer because he had an warrant for his arrest due to not paying his child support. Often, when he's brought up, there's a certain segment of the population who say "He committed a crime, why are we talking about him?!" as to say any crime carries the punishment of death.

He didn't pay child support. The officer's life wasn't in danger. Scott was shot several times in the back while fleeing.

Acknowledging that some of these people did commit crimes is essential to bridging the gap. Saying Scott did nothing wrong is dishonest and if I don't uphold the truth that not all black people are innocent, then I can't ask others to face that truth that not all police officers are innocent as well.

The matter of it lies on how minorities are treated when these incidents go down. And that's what I want to call focus on. Walter Scott was guilty of not paying his child support. Walter Scott was guilty of fleeing from an officer. None of these things put the officer's life in danger, and none of these incidents warranted his death.

And I think you failed to get my point, the one that made you so angry.

If you're simply mad at the number, we can just go with a shorter time line that shows whites are responsible for 57% of active shootings from 1982-2018.

But if it isn't that, I'm pointing out that going to statistics all the time is asinine if you're not paying attention to all statistics. Why pay attention to one set of statistics (Crime rate of Blacks) if you ignore another set of statistics (Most active shooters are white)? Why ignore the fact that African Americans on their own count for nearly half of the exonerations in this country?

African Americans are only 13% of the American population but a majority of innocent defendants wrongfully convicted of crimes and later exonerated. They constitute 47% of the 1,900 exonerations listed in the National Registry of Exonerations (as of October 2016), and the great majority of more than 1,800 additional innocent defendants who were framed and convicted of crimes in 15 large-scale police scandals and later cleared in 'group exonerations.'

(Source)

But the crime and the arrest numbers don't get retroactively changed in the yearly quotas that people love to pontificate over. And it damn sure doesn't change in the hearts and minds of those who wish to use the crime stats as 'data' in order to talk and think about minorities however they like.

And being mad at cops? I already said that I don't trust them, but I am not mad at them. In fact in the OP, I said that the cops were just doing their duty in the times they were called out. But cops are as human as minorities. But only one side has their word taken as infallible truth. We have cops like Michael Woods, Joe Crystal, Adrian Schoolcraft, Javier Velazquez, Pedro Serrano, Edwin Raymond who are brave enough to police us fairly or step away from the corruption and speak out about it.

We have disgraced officers like Detective Louis Scarcella, Commissioner Jon Burge, and scores of others.

Admittals from police officers about Fabricating Drug Charges (more than once... Hell, several times), Line Ups, DWI results, the sheer amount of Forensic 'scientists' who falsified evidence for convictions... One woman lead to 20,000 convictions being dropped. It isn't a conversation of it this happens elsewhere, it becomes a matter of how much are we missing out.

And there? Therein lies the difference between the stats of active shooters I present versus the stats people want to trot out about black crime. Stats about Black Arrests are subject to regular humans who hold an unbelievable amount of power who can do anything by merely saying "this is the way it went down". Fallible humans who might not even care if they got the right guy, who in their hearts believe it due to bias, officers who might want to punish, some who made an honest mistake, or those who just want the arrest numbers to rise up in the ranks. And yes... some who did a good job and just arrested the person who did it.

There are people who ignore the police speaking about how police are running ramshod over citizens' rights, who ignore those who were supposed to handle evidence fairly so we know arrests are correct, and Governing bodies in the police who don't want their numbers tarnished, so a few lives will just have to be ruined.

My point is this. I know black crime happens. Are the numbers accurate? Hell, Our own Government is releasing more and more people every year because the police got it wrong. Be it the wrong person arrested, false arrests, or unwarranted arrest. For example, Weed in NYC is a ticketable offense unless you have a certain amount. That amount is 25 grams, which is an amount to distribute. However, Cops still arrest Blacks and Latinos who are found smoking a joint.

There were about 17,500 marijuana possession arrests last year, a 40% drop since 2013, after Mayor de Blasio ordered most people caught with pot in their possession to get a summons instead of getting arrested

That's right. Cops continue to arrest falsely (17,500 arrests just last year) even after the Mayor of this city changed the law.

This is the crux of everything. You can't look at actions like this and believe the stats that the police give you. They don't even follow their own rules. Cops report their arrest, and those arrests are then told to us and we pass judgment on our fellow citizens. It is a faulty process. This is my point. If they can't be trusted to follow their own rules, how can we trust the 'information' they give us as fact?

But the problem is, we still do. We still look at the high numbers and just write off minorities as threats. Dangerous, superhuman people that you need the cops by you at all times because you happened to catch sight of them. Hell, yesterday we had the white student call the cops on a black fellow student who has the audacity to fall asleep writing a paper.

This is what police action has done. And more over, this is what the readiness of the public to believe has done to the fabric of our society. There is no critical thinking. There is no looking for deeper facts or questioning what we receive. Number big. Whole group of people bad... and people sleep happily in their ignorance while making groups of people targets. That's wrong. For humanity, and for intelligence.

And lastly... it's truly dishonest.

This is a feature. It's in the code.

The police have been ALLOWED to do this, with little to no repercussion, for 100+ YEARS.

If they're brown, guy 'em down. That's basically been the USA's law enforcement policy.

Schadrach:

Smithnikov:
I really don't know how many times I can hear the same "Black people commit crime, so black people need to accept being treated like criminals even when they're not and shut up." arguments and remain interested.

Replace "black" and "crime" with "men" and "rape" and watch how many suddenly switch sides on that one.

Not me. The way we handle male victims of sexual assault and rape as a society is fucking disgusting.

CaitSeith:

Yes. Yes I'm afraid so.

Schadrach:

Smithnikov:
I really don't know how many times I can hear the same "Black people commit crime, so black people need to accept being treated like criminals even when they're not and shut up." arguments and remain interested.

Replace "black" and "crime" with "men" and "rape" and watch how many suddenly switch sides on that one.

And you believe that "Men commit rape, so men need to accept being treated like rapists even when they're not and shut up" is wrong don't you? I mean you're accusing some nebulous undefined group of being hypocrites by engaging in the exact hypocrisy you claim to be criticising.

If "Men commit rape, so men need to accept being treated like rapists even when they're not and shut up" is wrong then why does it become okay when you replace "men" with "black" and "rape" with "crime". Surely you should be against both.

ObsidianJones:
Sorry to respond to you so late. The combination of real life stuff sidelining me yesterday necessitated this tardy response.

First off, I can't put a word to "These people" as it comes in all shapes and sizes. A knee jerk reaction would be "racists", "bigots", and other not to friendly words come to my mind the most easy. But I have enough sense to know that it's not easily lumped in as such.

There are perfectly decent people who I've met who are absolutely shocked that I'm a good person, because of everything they see on the news about blacks and crime. A woman who leaps into my mind just thinking about this really has no cause to look at anything deeper than what someone she likes tells her. She's white. She's rich. She's beautiful. There is no bigger "The world is my oyster" card in this life.

She wasn't exposed to police officer corruption because she never seen it. Cops are always kind to her, so they must be that way to everyone.

So, because not every bad person isn't aware, I can't lump them into one readily accessible epithet. These people are people who try to present the other side's fault in situations to lessen the burden or culpability of those in question. In this case, the police.

Now we come to another reason it took so long for me to respond. Honestly, how you phrase your 'debates' actually just made me want to give up on the conversation with you, as your descriptors really have no place in this conversation. They are adversarial in nature, making me want to consider you an adversary. Such a mindset would not breed open conversation, so some time off was needed.

But to the matter, yes, I found it very necessary to acknowledge that I know blacks commit crime like all races do. Because there are a quite a number of people who think one side asking for fair policing that doesn't come from violence and overblown measures is tantamount to saying that all black people are innocent. No, not all black people are. There are real criminals in the mix to these people I listed who had a disproportional response placed upon them.

While Walter Scott was a tragedy, he did commit a crime. He ran from the officer because he had an warrant for his arrest due to not paying his child support. Often, when he's brought up, there's a certain segment of the population who say "He committed a crime, why are we talking about him?!" as to say any crime carries the punishment of death.

He didn't pay child support. The officer's life wasn't in danger. Scott was shot several times in the back while fleeing.

Acknowledging that some of these people did commit crimes is essential to bridging the gap. Saying Scott did nothing wrong is dishonest and if I don't uphold the truth that not all black people are innocent, then I can't ask others to face that truth that not all police officers are innocent as well.

The matter of it lies on how minorities are treated when these incidents go down. And that's what I want to call focus on. Walter Scott was guilty of not paying his child support. Walter Scott was guilty of fleeing from an officer. None of these things put the officer's life in danger, and none of these incidents warranted his death.

And I think you failed to get my point, the one that made you so angry.

If you're simply mad at the number, we can just go with a shorter time line that shows whites are responsible for 57% of active shootings from 1982-2018.

But if it isn't that, I'm pointing out that going to statistics all the time is asinine if you're not paying attention to all statistics. Why pay attention to one set of statistics (Crime rate of Blacks) if you ignore another set of statistics (Most active shooters are white)? Why ignore the fact that African Americans on their own count for nearly half of the exonerations in this country?

Ok, I get who you mean by "these people" now. Your post was long anyway so in my opinon you might have been better served sticking a small paragraph describing that in your original post. You say you wanted to avoid lumping them into one epithet which is the right approach but ended up doing so anyway.

Guilty as charged on the style of my posts, I'm not the worst person in this subforum when it comes to that but far from the best too. As I said I agree with most of your OP and perhaps should have put more emphasis on that, still, if open discussion is what you're after the majority of conversation will be focused on the points you and whoever are in disagreement on. Otherwise its preaching to the choir/circlejerking - see the first 3 replies, theres nothing wrong with them, its just not really a productive discussion, right? Its my personal opinion that discussion or debate doesn't have to be "nice" if theres at least some baseline level of respect - reading or listening to whoever you're talking to properly, not chosing to ignore large parts of their argument, etc - see the countless times someone here has slapped my shit while staying above that baseline. If yours is different then yeah, I'm probably not the right person for you to talk to. (Or I'm exactly the right person to talk to, depending on how important it is to you that you convince others of your viewpoints.)

Right, you're admitting blacks commit crimes, I caught that the first time. You're still dancing around the fact that they commit more crimes relative to other portions of the population. (The reasons for this are another beast but obviously poverty and racism itself play a big roll in this, I'm not disputing that at all.) 1900 exonerations don't even begin to put the slightest dent in that. This is what I mean when I say you're being dishonest. People can see this, they're not that stupid usually. If you refuse to acknowledge the overrepresentation of blacks in almost all variations of violent crime its ground for whoever you're trying to convince of your viewpoint to dismiss you completely and I can't say I would blame them!

And I'm not ignoring the reality of white killing sprees and what not. In fact, I wrote an entire bit on it in my first reply, I'm a bit confused as to how you could accuse me of ignoring it. Hell, I even an alternative figure starting from 1984 which is 2% off yours.

ObsidianJones:
But the crime and the arrest numbers don't get retroactively changed in the yearly quotas that people love to pontificate over. And it damn sure doesn't change in the hearts and minds of those who wish to use the crime stats as 'data' in order to talk and think about minorities however they like.

And being mad at cops? I already said that I don't trust them, but I am not mad at them. In fact in the OP, I said that the cops were just doing their duty in the times they were called out. But cops are as human as minorities. But only one side has their word taken as infallible truth. We have cops like Michael Woods, Joe Crystal, Adrian Schoolcraft, Javier Velazquez, Pedro Serrano, Edwin Raymond who are brave enough to police us fairly or step away from the corruption and speak out about it.

We have disgraced officers like Detective Louis Scarcella, Commissioner Jon Burge, and scores of others.

Admittals from police officers about Fabricating Drug Charges (more than once... Hell, several times), Line Ups, DWI results, the sheer amount of Forensic 'scientists' who falsified evidence for convictions... One woman lead to 20,000 convictions being dropped. It isn't a conversation of it this happens elsewhere, it becomes a matter of how much are we missing out.

And there? Therein lies the difference between the stats of active shooters I present versus the stats people want to trot out about black crime. Stats about Black Arrests are subject to regular humans who hold an unbelievable amount of power who can do anything by merely saying "this is the way it went down". Fallible humans who might not even care if they got the right guy, who in their hearts believe it due to bias, officers who might want to punish, some who made an honest mistake, or those who just want the arrest numbers to rise up in the ranks. And yes... some who did a good job and just arrested the person who did it.

There are people who ignore the police speaking about how police are running ramshod over citizens' rights, who ignore those who were supposed to handle evidence fairly so we know arrests are correct, and Governing bodies in the police who don't want their numbers tarnished, so a few lives will just have to be ruined.

My point is this. I know black crime happens. Are the numbers accurate? Hell, Our own Government is releasing more and more people every year because the police got it wrong. Be it the wrong person arrested, false arrests, or unwarranted arrest. For example, Weed in NYC is a ticketable offense unless you have a certain amount. That amount is 25 grams, which is an amount to distribute. However, Cops still arrest Blacks and Latinos who are found smoking a joint.

There were about 17,500 marijuana possession arrests last year, a 40% drop since 2013, after Mayor de Blasio ordered most people caught with pot in their possession to get a summons instead of getting arrested

That's right. Cops continue to arrest falsely (17,500 arrests just last year) even after the Mayor of this city changed the law.

This is the crux of everything. You can't look at actions like this and believe the stats that the police give you. They don't even follow their own rules. Cops report their arrest, and those arrests are then told to us and we pass judgment on our fellow citizens. It is a faulty process. This is my point. If they can't be trusted to follow their own rules, how can we trust the 'information' they give us as fact?

But the problem is, we still do. We still look at the high numbers and just write off minorities as threats. Dangerous, superhuman people that you need the cops by you at all times because you happened to catch sight of them. Hell, yesterday we had the white student call the cops on a black fellow student who has the audacity to fall asleep writing a paper.

Again, if they did it wouldn't begin to make a dent. You can go and do it yourself right now.

The next point is impossible to completely refute because hell, how can you go about completely proving where each and every cops hands are during every arrest? Claiming the overrepresentation of blacks in for example drug crime is solely down to cops planting evidence and people in New York getting arrested for smoking joints is a stretch though, grasping for straws really. It happens beyond a doubt and more often than not it will remain uncovered but I won't accept that as a complete explanation. Luckily there is an "easy" solution to this - legalizing or at least decriminalizing possession of all drugs which I've been advocating since way back when.

I mean, its just silly to look at government stats for all sorts of crime and justify ignoring them with what you've given me here. Be skepticle, sure, always, doubt whether they tell the whole story, you'd be a fool if you didn't but you're stretching it WAY too far.

ObsidianJones:
This is what police action has done. And more over, this is what the readiness of the public to believe has done to the fabric of our society. There is no critical thinking. There is no looking for deeper facts or questioning what we receive. Number big. Whole group of people bad... and people sleep happily in their ignorance while making groups of people targets. That's wrong. For humanity, and for intelligence.

And lastly... it's truly dishonest.

Whitesplaining incoming! It seems to me that you're as uncritical of blacks as so called "these people" are of government statistics. If you want to avoid being dishonest you should be critical of both. Not everyone who disagrees is part of the dumb sheeple.

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:
*snips

Actually, all I'm guilty of in this situation is not agreeing with you. And to me, that's not guilty.

I don't have to admit that there are blacks that commit crime. Blacks commit crime. Disproportionately is where you're going to never get me to cross the bridge. You're talking to a guy who was almost arrested because I was running for the last train. I got stopped by three undercovers, and they kept calling

It didn't make a dent? Do you realize the push back from Government, Police Officers, and Prosecution who would rather let innocent people (both of the majority and minorities) rot than admit fault?

I question the number. I see enough things in government, personal experiences and the like to make me do so. You're asking me to take numbers that 'prove' Blacks commit higher amounts of crime when we how just a few people can ruin thousands of lives. I'm willing to admit that the number might not be as low as some people want compared to what the number is. But are you willing to admit that since we already just see a bit of evidence that has falsely ruined thousands of lives through just the handful of people I mention, we can't take the "disproportionately" marker that many people want to throw around as hard science?

Because honestly, there's no further conversation necessary if we can't meet at that middle ground. That the numbers have been lying since people chart them, not some infallible magic from up on high.

ObsidianJones:

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:
*snips

Actually, all I'm guilty of in this situation is not agreeing with you. And to me, that's not guilty.

I don't have to admit that there are blacks that commit crime. Blacks commit crime. Disproportionately is where you're going to never get me to cross the bridge. You're talking to a guy who was almost arrested because I was running for the last train. I got stopped by three undercovers, and they kept calling

It didn't make a dent? Do you realize the push back from Government, Police Officers, and Prosecution who would rather let innocent people (both of the majority and minorities) rot than admit fault?

I question the number. I see enough things in government, personal experiences and the like to make me do so. You're asking me to take numbers that 'prove' Blacks commit higher amounts of crime when we how just a few people can ruin thousands of lives. I'm willing to admit that the number might not be as low as some people want compared to what the number is. But are you willing to admit that since we already just see a bit of evidence that has falsely ruined thousands of lives through just the handful of people I mention, we can't take the "disproportionately" marker that many people want to throw around as hard science?

Because honestly, there's no further conversation necessary if we can't meet at that middle ground. That the numbers have been lying since people chart them, not some infallible magic from up on high.

Uh, are you reading my posts? I didn't say you were guilty of anything. I said I was guilty of the combatitive tone you mentioned.

Regarding the last bit, no, you won't get me to make that unrealistic concession. And more to the point, you won't get anyone who thinks the numbers are bang on accurate to think differently with that argumentation. Blacks not overrepresented in homicide to name one of many examples? So, what, you're saying that the 41 point difference (13% of the population black, 54% of the homicides) is made up enterily of dirty cops planting handguns? Yeah, good luck with that.

 

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