Death tolls mysteriously rise in Gaza

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Catnip1024:
First, I'm fairly certain they've never openly acknowledged this.

No, they haven't. But they have the weapons. We know this for empirical fact due to the information released by
Mordechai Vanunu.

bastardofmelbourne:
That said. It is very difficult for anyone to justify the recent violence at the Gaza border.

American Boomer Conservatives: "Hold my beer"

The IDF's standing orders were to shoot any armed protesters within 300 metres of the fence and any unarmed protesters within 100 metres. in the context of managing a civilian protest, those orders were completely unjustifiable. It displays a stunning level of callousness towards the safety of the protesters and a political short-sightedness that I have learned to expect from Benjamin Netanyahu and his administration.

I wonder if that might be because many in the Israeli policy-making department don't see much of a distinction between a civilian and a potential militant. Sort of the problem countries have found fighting unconventional wars where the enemies don't wear uniforms. I'll further point out that such wars result in the military becoming frustrated with the situation and taking out that frustration on civilians under weak legal justifications and those civilians responding to the collective punishment by becoming more anti-military.

I've mulled over how to summarise this for half an hour now, so here goes: the situation in Gaza is untenable. It can only get worse as time passes. And Netanyahu's conservative coalition has displayed no interest whatsoever in trying to resolve it. They are simply ignoring the kettle as it boils, and then shooting at it when it boils over. What do you get from this? You get a bloody goddamn mess.

Neither side has the leadership willing/able to make the compromises necessary. Israel can't keep building settlements and enforcing a 50 year occupation without end and Palestinians are never going to get anything close to a right to return (it would change demographics too much so Israel won't allow it).

The only solutions I see as likely are disastrous.

CM156:

I wonder if that might be because many in the Israeli policy-making department don't see much of a distinction between a civilian and a potential militant. Sort of the problem countries have found fighting unconventional wars where the enemies don't wear uniforms. I'll further point out that such wars result in the military becoming frustrated with the situation and taking out that frustration on civilians under weak legal justifications and those civilians responding to the collective punishment by becoming more anti-military.

I mean, they aren't wrong. When they start shooting, people go from one to the other really damn fast.

So are they catastrophically tunnel visioned or is that just part of the plan.

Seanchaidh:

Catnip1024:
Not so "indiscriminate" after all.

Thousands of people have been shot. But some of 'em were Hamas, guess that proves it's not indiscriminate!

Are you even listening to yourself?

58 were shot dead. 50 were acknowledged as Hamas operatives. That's a better rate than a lot of US drone strikes.

Injuries heal. Injury statistics are misleading. Rubber bullets would also count to those numbers, for instance.

Catnip1024:

Seanchaidh:

Catnip1024:
Not so "indiscriminate" after all.

Thousands of people have been shot. But some of 'em were Hamas, guess that proves it's not indiscriminate!

Are you even listening to yourself?

58 were shot dead. 50 were acknowledged as Hamas operatives. That's a better rate than a lot of US drone strikes.

Injuries heal. Injury statistics are misleading. Rubber bullets would also count to those numbers, for instance.

Even if we take what you're saying (which is quite dubious) at face value, you're still talking about extrajudicial killings based on literal guilt by association. Anything to sanctify Israel and dehumanize Palestinians, though, eh?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/journalist-covering-gaza-rally-killed-israeli-forces-180425163003132.html

According to eyewitnesses, Hussein, a photographer for the Gaza-based Voice of the People radio station, was wearing a protective vest marked "PRESS" at the time he was shot.

Y'know what? I'll give you that they're picking their targets deliberately. They really don't like journalists covering protests.

Seanchaidh:
Anything to sanctify Israel and dehumanize Palestinians, though, eh?

All they have to do is remember to shred their documents like the English.

Catnip1024:
58 were shot dead. 50 were acknowledged as Hamas operatives. That's a better rate than a lot of US drone strikes.

You're overlooking something very important: Hamas is the elected government of the Gaza strip, and also its largest employer. Hamas provides citizens of Gaza with water, electricity, education, sanitation and medical care. It's still a terrorist organisation, but it employs a vast number of people who are ultimately just doctors, clerks, electricians and teachers - in other words, civilian noncombatants. One can define them as "Hamas operatives," but that's kind of like if America were to define every person living in Afghanistan c. 2001 as a "Taliban operative." It's impossible to live in the Gaza strip and not be connected to Hamas, whether directly or indirectly.

Now, you might say that it's still that individual's decision as whether or not they choose to be connected to Hamas, but the fact of the matter is that they're going to get shot at on the presumption that they're Hamas anyway, and they also can't leave. What kind of choice is that? If you risk getting shot at by the IDF just because you're a living person inside Gaza, why not hold down a job while you're at it?

CM156:
I wonder if that might be because many in the Israeli policy-making department don't see much of a distinction between a civilian and a potential militant.

It turns out that they totally don't!

Avigdor Lieberman, Israel's Minister for Defence:
"There are no innocent persons in the Gaza Strip. Everyone's connected to Hamas, everyone gets a salary from Hamas, and all the activists trying to challenge us and breach the border are Hamas military wing activists."

This is a statement that is technically true, but, also, a total lie. Hamas is everywhere in Gaza, and everyone knows someone who works for Hamas, because Hamas are the government and the only available source of paychecks.

Ninjamedic:

Seanchaidh:
Anything to sanctify Israel and dehumanize Palestinians, though, eh?

All they have to do is remember to shred their documents like the English.

Nah, that's a lot of unnecessary effort. Just keep slaughtering Muslims and the west will support them. They'd only need to shred documents if anybody cared.

bastardofmelbourne:

Catnip1024:
58 were shot dead. 50 were acknowledged as Hamas operatives. That's a better rate than a lot of US drone strikes.

You're overlooking something very important: Hamas is the elected government of the Gaza strip, and also its largest employer. Hamas provides citizens of Gaza with water, electricity, education, sanitation and medical care. It's still a terrorist organisation, but it employs a vast number of people who are ultimately just doctors, clerks, electricians and teachers - in other words, civilian noncombatants. One can define them as "Hamas operatives," but that's kind of like if America were to define every person living in Afghanistan c. 2001 as a "Taliban operative." It's impossible to live in the Gaza strip and not be connected to Hamas, whether directly or indirectly.

Now, you might say that it's still that individual's decision as whether or not they choose to be connected to Hamas, but the fact of the matter is that they're going to get shot at on the presumption that they're Hamas anyway, and they also can't leave. What kind of choice is that? If you risk getting shot at by the IDF just because you're a living person inside Gaza, why not hold down a job while you're at it?

CM156:
I wonder if that might be because many in the Israeli policy-making department don't see much of a distinction between a civilian and a potential militant.

It turns out that they totally don't!

Avigdor Lieberman, Israel's Minister for Defence:
"There are no innocent persons in the Gaza Strip. Everyone's connected to Hamas, everyone gets a salary from Hamas, and all the activists trying to challenge us and breach the border are Hamas military wing activists."

This is a statement that is technically true, but, also, a total lie. Hamas is everywhere in Gaza, and everyone knows someone who works for Hamas, because Hamas are the government and the only available source of paychecks.

How about a David and Goliath situation where both sides send their best warrior to fight to the death and whichever side wins gets to own Gaza and the West Bank?

Some people might call ritualized fights to the death like this "barbaric" but I would call it a hell of a lot better than what's currently going on.

And I'm only slightly kidding.

bastardofmelbourne:

Catnip1024:
58 were shot dead. 50 were acknowledged as Hamas operatives. That's a better rate than a lot of US drone strikes.

You're overlooking something very important: Hamas is the elected government of the Gaza strip, and also its largest employer. Hamas provides citizens of Gaza with water, electricity, education, sanitation and medical care. It's still a terrorist organisation, but it employs a vast number of people who are ultimately just doctors, clerks, electricians and teachers - in other words, civilian noncombatants. One can define them as "Hamas operatives," but that's kind of like if America were to define every person living in Afghanistan c. 2001 as a "Taliban operative." It's impossible to live in the Gaza strip and not be connected to Hamas, whether directly or indirectly.

Now, you might say that it's still that individual's decision as whether or not they choose to be connected to Hamas, but the fact of the matter is that they're going to get shot at on the presumption that they're Hamas anyway, and they also can't leave. What kind of choice is that? If you risk getting shot at by the IDF just because you're a living person inside Gaza, why not hold down a job while you're at it?

CM156:
I wonder if that might be because many in the Israeli policy-making department don't see much of a distinction between a civilian and a potential militant.

It turns out that they totally don't!

Avigdor Lieberman, Israel's Minister for Defence:
"There are no innocent persons in the Gaza Strip. Everyone's connected to Hamas, everyone gets a salary from Hamas, and all the activists trying to challenge us and breach the border are Hamas military wing activists."

This is a statement that is technically true, but, also, a total lie. Hamas is everywhere in Gaza, and everyone knows someone who works for Hamas, because Hamas are the government and the only available source of paychecks.

How about a David and Goliath situation where both sides send their best warrior to fight to the death and whichever side wins gets to own Gaza and the West Bank?

Some people might call ritualized fights to the death like this "barbaric" but I would call it a hell of a lot better than what's currently going on.

And I'm only slightly kidding.

Catnip1024:
Egypt is very volatile at the minute,

It's stable enough.

Second, nuclear weapons are a deterrent, not a defence. The fact that you have them does you no good if people are swarming across the border, unless you are willing to lay waste to your own land.

You were talking about mortal threats to Israel's existence, which would require a foreign power. What do think nuclear weapons relate to?

Third, back to my earlier point - were the fence to be breached, it's likely that there would be far more civilian deaths, due to how crowds work. Early heavy-handedness can save a lot of lives

A few thousand people get through a fence... and do what, exactly? There's at least half a mile of desert to trek over to get any inhabited areas. If you need to stop them storming Sderot, okay.

it's easy to condemn things when you never have to live with the consequences of the alternatives.

Funny, but you don't have to live as a person coralled into an miserable, oversize prison camp, after the international community signed away half your people's land to foreigners and then were driven out and ground down over the subsequent three generations. But you seem to think you're in a fine position to condemn, so don't give me that bullshit.

bastardofmelbourne:
It turns out that they totally don't!

Avigdor Lieberman, Israel's Minister for Defence:
"There are no innocent persons in the Gaza Strip. Everyone's connected to Hamas, everyone gets a salary from Hamas, and all the activists trying to challenge us and breach the border are Hamas military wing activists."

This is a statement that is technically true, but, also, a total lie. Hamas is everywhere in Gaza, and everyone knows someone who works for Hamas, because Hamas are the government and the only available source of paychecks.

The salient characteristic for Israel is that Palestinians are what stand in the way of taking yet more land. Armed, unarmed, hardly matters. They just want them dead and gone.

Sorry for the (very) late reply. The site gave me constant error messages for a little while, which eventually made me give up trying for quite a few days, because it was endlessly frustrating.

Catnip1024:
I'm not aware that protestors were a demographic now.

The protest is carried out by the Pro-Palestine groups / supporters. The attacks are carried out by a set of the same people. Hence there are likely to be violent elements within the gathering. That would be enough cause to stop protests in a lot of places.

You were the one who made the connection to murders committed by people who were not there, who were not protestors; you were the one who used this as justification for police action at the protest, which included killing people. The only connection is a demographic connection.

So, yes, that would be explicit prejudice.

Catnip1024:
Do you see the irony here? Considering the Charlottesville response, where the cry was "ban all far right marches" over one death and a bit of minor scuffling? Whereas my view is, if you can be trusted / policed, assemble, at the very least until your group has caused sufficient violence to result in you losing your right to assemble. There is nothing stopping Palestinians gathering anywhere that isn't a border to a disputed region.

Ah, so they have the right to assemble... where it is proscribed that they can assemble, by a hostile military force.

Yeah, that's not liberty. This is exceptional willingness to sell away basic freedom.

Catnip1024:

Injuries heal. Injury statistics are misleading.

That's a bit handwavy and inhumane.

I dislocated my thumb about ten years ago or so. I can use it just fine now, but if I do something that someone who hadn't suffered the injury did (e.g. spend a day drilling holes in stuff), I'm in pain with that hand for about a week, whereas they wouldn't be.

I mean, if someone broke both your legs, but you eventually learned to walk again, forever with a severe limp, after much painful physio, would you just shrug and say 'eh, injuries heal'? It's practically a victimless crime at that point, obviously.

Catnip1024:
njuries heal. Injury statistics are misleading. Rubber bullets would also count to those numbers, for instance.

If I jumped you with a group of friends and beat you to the edge of your live that left you in crippling pain for the next decade but eventually healed, you'd be cool with it then? I mean injuries heal. Or what if we just shot you with a bunch of rubber bullets. No big deal right?

Baffle2:

Catnip1024:

Injuries heal. Injury statistics are misleading.

That's a bit handwavy and inhumane.

Yeah, I have to second (third?) that point.

People have a tendency to focus on the body count of any particular massacre - which, to be fair, is the most important part, but it means they underestimate the full magnitude of suffering inflicted; all the lives affected or derailed by those who were "merely" injured.

For example, the Las Vegas shooting last year resulted in fifty-eight fatalities, but well over eight hundred injuries. Some of those are going to be minor, sure, but even if you assume only a portion of those injuries were serious, you're still looking at a few hundred people whose lives have been forever altered for the worse, despite being lucky enough to survive.

You need to account for that when assessing...I can't believe I'm saying this, but you when you're assessing how "bad" a shooting massacre is. I mean, it's always bad. But we can see from this discussion that it's really easy to fall into the trap of dismissing all the injury statistics as "well, they were only injured, that's fine," simply because for them to be dead would be much worse.

I mean, what do you think healthcare is like in Gaza? I can't imagine it's great.

Seanchaidh:
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180523-remote-control-repression-israel-tested-its-latest-weapons-against-the-great-march-of-return/

The avant garde of political repression.

Those are illegal on the battlefield. In clear violation of the Hague Convention. Palestine is an internationally recognized signee of the Hague Convention of 1899, as is Israel ... so these are provable acts of warcrimes. How fucking blatant does it need to be?

Even if Israel wants to fucking pretend that people with video cameras marked as 'press' are somehow 'terrorists' deserving lead injections, there is zero justification for explosive and expanding head bullets.

That is a blatant violation of international laws.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180508-reports-israel-army-changed-open-fire-regulations-in-gaza/

Apparently, despite the efforts of those who would justify such murders, Israel has become convinced that making such a spectacle of slaughter was bad for business. Of course, this underlines the point that they never needed to be killing anyone in the first place.

bastardofmelbourne:
People have a tendency to focus on the body count of any particular massacre - which, to be fair, is the most important part, but it means they underestimate the full magnitude of suffering inflicted; all the lives affected or derailed by those who were "merely" injured.

Indeed.

It's particularly pressing in this case given that parts of the IDF have been accused by multiple human rights groups of carrying out an informal policy of deliberately maiming civilians.

Whether one believes the authenticity of those particular allegations (and I'm inclined to, given that they derive in part from analysis of hospital admissions) it's difficult to deny that in this situation deliberately shooting to maim would be useful. It keeps the body count down while also making people a burden on their community and unable to engage in further protest or action.

Seanchaidh:
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180523-remote-control-repression-israel-tested-its-latest-weapons-against-the-great-march-of-return/

The avant garde of political repression.

Ha! Those are actually super illegal.

I mean, they might have a practical reason for deciding to use them - hollow-point bullets don't overpenetrate the target, so they're sometimes used by law enforcement for when they need to shoot someone and not hit the person in the apartment next door - but it's super illegal to use hollow-points in a military context. Has been for well over a hundred years.

bastardofmelbourne:

Ha! Those are actually super illegal.

I mean, they might have a practical reason for deciding to use them - hollow-point bullets don't overpenetrate the target, so they're sometimes used by law enforcement for when they need to shoot someone and not hit the person in the apartment next door - but it's super illegal to use hollow-points in a military context. Has been for well over a hundred years.

Not just hollow points. Explosive and expanding heads in general for conventional arms.

But how the Hague Convention of 1899 is written, belligerents universally have to sign the document. So Australia, which is a signee, and China, which is a signee, couldn't have a hypothetical war where soldiers uses expanding or exploding head bullets in an engagement between eachother without committing a war crime.

The ADF flat out just refuses to carry them at all for their armed forces usage, which is a step above the requirements of the Hague Convention of 1899. In that the ADF flat out refuses to uses them. Of course, we use arms that simulate likely what the HC(1899) in spirit did not want to see on the battlefield. Automatic grenade launchers, for instance...

Israel's only excuse is it does not recognize Palestine as being a signatory... which is hardly the point. Because they (Palestine) are recognized internationally as a signatory party (as they were a part of the British Empire that did sign it, and they never revoked it) ... and even if Israel does not recognize Palestinians as being anything more than colonized people, they are signatories of the Hague Convention of 1899. Which means they are on paper signing for both the colonised and themselvesas colonizers.

It's not just 'super illegal' ... it's the very definition of a war crime meriting censure and sanctions.

It's a wanton transgression of the international rules of war that they themselves as signatory profess to obey.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
The ADF flat out just refuses to carry them at all for their armed forces usage, which is a step above the requirements of the Hague Convention of 1899. In that the ADF flat out refuses to uses them. Of course, we use arms that simulate likely what the HC(1899) in spirit did not want to see on the battlefield. Automatic grenade launchers, for instance...

Not sure if grenade launchers are violating the spirit there, depends if you think of them as weapons that fire very large bullets or small artillery pieces.

Also, lots of rounds fragment, which apparently isn't an issue for some reason.

Thaluikhain:

Not sure if grenade launchers are violating the spirit there, depends if you think of them as weapons that fire very large bullets or small artillery pieces.

Also, lots of rounds fragment, which apparently isn't an issue for some reason.

Ehh, the Hague Convention of 1899 does stipulate machine guns as being equally claused.

And to be fair, the Hague Convention does also specifically state exploding heads. FMJs do actually spiel and fragment upon impact, but that's not its intended purpose. Also artillery, by definition of the time, is something that is strictly not personal arms.

Artillery was weapons for which required mounting and gun laying.

I would say that things like automatic grenade launchers transgress the spirit of the law, but arguably are not strictly disallowed.

Thaluikhain:
Not sure if grenade launchers are violating the spirit there, depends if you think of them as weapons that fire very large bullets or small artillery pieces.

Also, lots of rounds fragment, which apparently isn't an issue for some reason.

It's a prohibition dating back to 1899. There's no real logic behind it, especially not in the context of modern weapons technology.

Still very much illegal, however.

Seanchaidh:
Even if we take what you're saying (which is quite dubious) at face value, you're still talking about extrajudicial killings based on literal guilt by association.

Not his word, Hamas official's own words. Also, I don't think you know what the word "extra judicial" means. These are IDF soldiers acting on orders, against an enemy with whom it is officially at war. Every country in the world has the right to defend its borders and Israel has made abundantly clear it won't tolerate a breach of the security fence. It is not extra-judicial by any stretch. Extra judicial would be without trial within a state, for example, the extra-judicial killings by Hamas against Gazans. The IDF are acting to defend Israel from an enemy that has sworn their death and destruction and soldiers act on orders from commanders. It is legitimate kiling.

And as pointed out, Hamas officials themselves acknowledged that 50 of the 62 dead last week were Hamas terrorists. Radical islamists who are trying to breach the border to murder jews. Hamas are islamist terrorists who murder civilians, israeli and their own and the sole responsibility for this conflict is on them.

KingsGambit:
And as pointed out, Hamas officials themselves acknowledged that 50 of the 62 dead last week were Hamas

Yes, you are entirely and factually correct up to here.

KingsGambit:
terrorists.

And you were doing so good before this. Hamas is the government in Gaza. That means that anyone working in any part of the government is a member of Hamas. Someone being a member of Hamas doesn't in any way, shape, or form mean they are a part of any fighting group. A clerk who handles civilian permits is just as much a member of Hamas as someone firing the rockets. However, they're not equal targets nor are both terrorists.

KingsGambit:
Radical islamists who are trying to breach the border to murder jews.

Again, you've shown no proof of this. If you have some, I'd love to see it.

KingsGambit:
Hamas are islamist terrorists who murder civilians, israeli and their own and the sole responsibility for this conflict is on them.

Much like how Isreal has murdered tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians. Oh and there also how they purposefully robbed even more of their homes and livelihoods in the name of Israeli "settlements" as they push the Palestinian people into literal Nazi-esque ghettos. Funny how you don't get as upset about that as the few hundred total Israeli civilian deaths.

KingsGambit:

Seanchaidh:
Even if we take what you're saying (which is quite dubious) at face value, you're still talking about extrajudicial killings based on literal guilt by association.

Not his word, Hamas official's own words. Also, I don't think you know what the word "extra judicial" means. These are IDF soldiers acting on orders, against an enemy with whom it is officially at war. Every country in the world has the right to defend its borders and Israel has made abundantly clear it won't tolerate a breach of the security fence. It is not extra-judicial by any stretch. Extra judicial would be without trial within a state, for example, the extra-judicial killings by Hamas against Gazans. The IDF are acting to defend Israel from an enemy that has sworn their death and destruction and soldiers act on orders from commanders. It is legitimate kiling.

And as pointed out, Hamas officials themselves acknowledged that 50 of the 62 dead last week were Hamas terrorists. Radical islamists who are trying to breach the border to murder jews. Hamas are islamist terrorists who murder civilians, israeli and their own and the sole responsibility for this conflict is on them.

Did you know Nelson Mandela was a terrorist? His cell killed 14 innocent people in an action decades ago. Did you know the Founding Fathers were terrorists? Literally stole a whole bunch of land of the crown and killed thousands. They were fortunate that they did have the word terrorist back then.

Unfortunately, the West forced hundreds of thousand of Palestinians off their land so Israel can be set up. Hamas is seen as liberators by Palestinians. What would you do to protect your home?

There are a bunch of domestic terrorists in the US. They continually slaughter school children. They are being protected by gun laws and the NRA. Maybe the US army should start rolling up to their house, pushing them out or executing them?

(Also note that the links here are deliberately tenuous to make a point. Its easy to turn anyone into a terrorist.)

KingsGambit:
The IDF are acting to defend Israel from an enemy that has sworn their death and destruction and soldiers act on orders from commanders. It is legitimate kiling.

They're killing children, protestors, and journalists.

KingsGambit:
These are IDF soldiers acting on orders, against an enemy with whom it is officially at war.

No. Neither Hamas nor the Palestinian territories are a state, therefore Israel cannot "officially" declare war on either.

Secondly, the Palestinian territories are occupied by Israel, which means Israel exerts ultimate sovereignty over them, which gives Israel substantial responsibilities for the Palestinians. Israel is effectively carrying out policing actions and the proportionality of force should be assessed accordingly, rather than as battlefield conflicts.

CM156:

BreakfastMan:
The government of Israel and the IDF need to be prosecuted for crimes against humanity, full stop. Just... Jesus christ.

And you and I know this won't happen so long as Americans support Israel no matter what they do. As much as powerful nations need to be held to account.

I have to wonder sometimes how much protection and billions in aid each year we'd be giving Israel if the Holocaust never happened. Norman Finkelstein even thinks there's an industry behind it.

Another peculiarity is, while everyone grew up learning about the six million number, what about how long and often it's been tossed around.

I know stuff like that is bordering on sacrilege, but really if truth is the new hate speech, then where would that leave us.

There was an interesting quote in the comments of a Battlefield V YouTube trailer of all things,

"The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history."

― George Orwell

hanselthecaretaker:
I have to wonder sometimes how much protection and billions in aid each year we?d be giving Israel if the Holocaust never happened.

It's the US's only ally in the area, and only nation with a dominant religion other than Islam in the area. And it's in constant conflict with Islamic nations. So still a lot.

hanselthecaretaker:
I have to wonder sometimes how much protection and billions in aid each year we?d be giving Israel if the Holocaust never happened. Norman Finkelstein even thinks there?s an industry behind it.

Another peculiarity is, while everyone grew up learning about the six million number, what about how long and often it?s been tossed around.

I know stuff like that is bordering on sacrilege, but really if truth is the new hate speech, then where would that leave us.

And now we've reached the inevitable conclusion of this thread - Holocaust conspiracy theories.

Thaluikhain:

hanselthecaretaker:
I have to wonder sometimes how much protection and billions in aid each year we?d be giving Israel if the Holocaust never happened.

It's the US's only ally in the area, and only nation with a dominant religion other than Islam in the area. And it's in constant conflict with Islamic nations. So still a lot.

It seems like that would largely be by choice though too, and quite possibly forced to a significant degree. How much pointless loss and tragedy has already happened and will continue indefinitely in the name of religion. I wonder how much of it is even about God anymore.

Catnip1024:

hanselthecaretaker:
I have to wonder sometimes how much protection and billions in aid each year we?d be giving Israel if the Holocaust never happened. Norman Finkelstein even thinks there?s an industry behind it.

Another peculiarity is, while everyone grew up learning about the six million number, what about how long and often it?s been tossed around.

I know stuff like that is bordering on sacrilege, but really if truth is the new hate speech, then where would that leave us.

And now we've reached the inevitable conclusion of this thread - Holocaust conspiracy theories.

It wouldn't be a conspiracy if the details behind it were concrete in the first place. It was one of the most major events in modern human history. When has any other major event in modern human history been so taboo to debate or at least technically examine that people are typically ostracized or in some cases locked up and even killed for doing so.

What we were taught in school:

Six million Jews were gassed and burned by the Nazis, and Hitler was the most evil person to have lived. That's the general conception people have, at least in the West. If that's all there was to it, then fine, but things like science, logic and reason would probably have more to say, if allowed to do so.

Thaluikhain:
It's the US's only ally in the area

It is? What constitutes "in the area"?

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