Me too

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Not sure if this belongs here or Off Topic, but I'm gonna blindly charge in anyways.
With tons of celebrities and politicians being outed as sex offenders (And other stuff, but let's keep our terms simple) is there any celebrity/politician who you have enough faith in to say that nothing will come out aboot?
I'm gonna say anyone who's worked on the Stewart-era Daily Show. You know Sam Bee wouldn't let them pull that off without people knowing.

Stephen Hawking.

Elijah Wood, mainly as he spoke out about the predatory nature around Hollywood some whiles ago but got in trouble for it and seems a decent humanchap regardless.

Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen probably. Ben Kingsley as an added hopeful, fingers-crossed please be alright. Terry Gilliam is too much like an eccentric stoned hippy uncle to imagine acting towards another person that way. But this is all speculation and can tank the disappointment if wrong. People 'n life are prone to disappoint.

There's a few Brit comedians I'd add, if we're counting those, mainly due to the type of environment they work within here, but might make the post a bit overstated.

I tend to think of people I really hope don't turn out to be abusers (not that I want anyone to be), rather than those I'm certain aren't. Everyone's got some people saying they just somehow know they are innocent, and lots of people who aren't make lots of noise about the problem.

Xsjadoblayde:

Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen probably.

Well, Patrick Stewart marrying his Star Trek producer doesn't say much for his professional ethics.

Benedict Cumberbatch seems to be vested enough in feminism that I doubt much will surface about him.

Rik Mayall, but that's just because I like him.

Xsjadoblayde:
Terry Gilliam is too much like an eccentric stoned hippy uncle to imagine acting towards another person that way. But this is all speculation and can tank the disappointment if wrong. People 'n life are prone to disappoint.

Um, googling "Terry Gilliam abuse" brings back a lot of hits. Now, AFAIK, he's not been accused of abusing people himself, but he's been defending abusers.

Blood Brain Barrier:
Well, Patrick Stewart marrying his Star Trek producer doesn't say much for his professional ethics.

That's a bit of a weak stretch. You're going to need more than that.

Thaluikhain:
Um, googling "Terry Gilliam abuse" brings back a lot of hits. Now, AFAIK, he's not been accused of abusing people himself, but he's been defending abusers.

Well that is certainly disappointing. Maybe a little too trusting or some old fashioned sensibilities striking again there. Was prepared for the letdown. I avoided own googling for the fear of going down an endless rabbit hole of conflicting information.

Gethsemani:
Benedict Cumberbatch seems to be vested enough in feminism that I doubt much will surface about him.

So was Schneiderman.

Accuse me of hero worship all you want, I'm pretty sure David Lynch isn't the type to sexually abuse people. He signed that petition a few years ago to pardon Polanski, which doesn't exactly reflect positively onto him but I don't think he's a violent or abusive person and I stand by that.

Other than that... well, I guess most of my favourite currently living directors should be save. Kaufman, Snyder, Lantimos, Wes Anderson... doubt they're gonna face any accusation of sexual abuse anytime soon. Of course I might be wrong.

Gethsemani:
Benedict Cumberbatch seems to be vested enough in feminism that I doubt much will surface about him.

That's the problem. Those men who are so out-going with their feminism are usually the work offenders, using it as a cover and carefully selecting who to abuse so the majority think its not true, 'cause look how feminist he is.

Honestly given how power and money and fame corrupt the mind, I'm guessing most celebs have done something #MeToo would object too, men and women. I'd bet Rose McGowan got drunk at a party and grabbed a stripper's dick without consent. Meryl Streep probably forced a personal assistant to go down on her back in the 90s. Fuck me, Oprah used to brag about going to the same parties as Weinstein, always taking pictures with him. I'll bet she got a little something-something from some young actors and actresses.

Conspiracies and cultures of silence only work if everyone has something to hide.

There are many people that it would be really disappointing to find out that they are an abuser, I do not think I could ever say that *I know* someone would never do that however. Throughout my life people I never thought would do things to me or others DID in fact do things so one thing I have learned is that you never really know until it happens.

That is the issue though. The whole idea it is "monsters separate from society" that do horrible things is terribly false. It is your friends, family, neighbors that do these things. The sooner society realizes that as a whole the sooner we will make progress on addressing how to change these things on a noticeable level.

Shit, man. The very nature of this kind of thing is that you can't say for sure whether some public figure or another is 100% clean. All you know about these people is their public persona. They might be a completely different person in private, and it's super hard to tell the difference even when you're talking about close friends or people you've known for years.

I'm sitting here going, "well, Hugh Jackman is a pretty decent bloke," and then I'm thinking "...or is he???"

Silentpony:
Those men who are so out-going with their feminism are usually the work offenders, using it as a cover and carefully selecting who to abuse so the majority think its not true, 'cause look how feminist he is.

I don't think Warren Jeffs, Richard Rameriez, or Ted Bundy ever put on an act of being feminists....

Smithnikov:

Silentpony:
Those men who are so out-going with their feminism are usually the work offenders, using it as a cover and carefully selecting who to abuse so the majority think its not true, 'cause look how feminist he is.

I don't think Warren Jeffs, Richard Rameriez, or Ted Bundy ever put on an act of being feminists....

His point is that there's a large number of these people who are male feminists. Sure, it's not all, it's just most. It's not hard to look at what happened, and notice that the lion's share of offenders are not only left leaning, but a specific anti-liberal brand of left wing ideology. And hell, it's hard to think of any noteworthy male feminist of the past decade who hasn't had some allegation made against them.

The loudest male feminists always seem to be the ones with the most to hide. At this point it's pattern recognition. It also explains why feminists pretend there's a rape culture in the west, since they come from a small fringe of it where there is a problem, and have tricked themselves into thinking they're the best that society has to offer, instead of the reality that they have the worst problems in this regard then pretty much any other part of it that isn't part of the gang war going on right now.

Zontar:

Smithnikov:

Silentpony:
Those men who are so out-going with their feminism are usually the work offenders, using it as a cover and carefully selecting who to abuse so the majority think its not true, 'cause look how feminist he is.

I don't think Warren Jeffs, Richard Rameriez, or Ted Bundy ever put on an act of being feminists....

His point is that there's a large number of these people who are male feminists. Sure, it's not all, it's just most. It's not hard to look at what happened, and notice that the lion's share of offenders are not only left leaning, but a specific anti-liberal brand of left wing ideology. And hell, it's hard to think of any noteworthy male feminist of the past decade who hasn't had some allegation made against them.

The loudest male feminists always seem to be the ones with the most to hide. At this point it's pattern recognition. It also explains why feminists pretend there's a rape culture in the west, since they come from a small fringe of it where there is a problem, and have tricked themselves into thinking they're the best that society has to offer, instead of the reality that they have the worst problems in this regard then pretty much any other part of it that isn't part of the gang war going on right now.

No, it is not just " most" just the males claiming to be feminists are more likely to apologize or resign where the conservatives just lie about it. Lying about it is actually much worse.
I call BS on them coming from where there is a "small fringe" where there is a problem. It is most rampant in the most conservative parts of the country. The places where rape culture is the worst is the most affluent, conservative areas by far. Conservative women are the least likely to talk about it. They teach their daughters to keep quiet instead. I know this because this is what many mothers taught us in this area. In fact, our churches here often teach us that being abused just comes with the territory of being female. You really should sit down and listen to what the pastors in Texas tell the girls here about what is and is not acceptable to happen to them.

Rape culture also teaches conservative girls to never speak of such things.

Silentpony:
That's the problem. Those men who are so out-going with their feminism are usually the work offenders, using it as a cover and carefully selecting who to abuse so the majority think its not true, 'cause look how feminist he is.

Are they? Has anyone actually compiled a list of MeToo sex pests and checked how outgoing they are about feminism, or are we just judging on a handful of high profile cases?

Conspiracies and cultures of silence only work if everyone has something to hide.

No, conspiracies and cultures of silence work because: a) that behaviour is widely tolerated within those circles; and b) where it is not tolerated, conspirators have and use the power necessary to shut people up.

Lil devils x:
No, it is not just " most" just the males claiming to be feminists are more likely to apologize or resign where the conservatives just lie about it. Lying about it is actually much worse.

Unless the entire MeToo movement has been another case of the left wing media wanting to paint the left wing bad for reasons only they know, it is, in fact, a case of "most". Yes, there are conservatives who are being accused, and yes, there are liberals being accused, but most of those being accused are neither, and are instead illiberal regressives.

I call BS on them coming from where there is a "small fringe" where there is a problem. It is most rampant in the most conservative parts of the country. The places where rape culture is the worst is the most affluent, conservative areas by far. Conservative women are the least likely to talk about it. They teach their daughters to keep quiet instead. I know this because this is what many mothers taught us in this area. In fact, our churches here often teach us that being abused just comes with the territory of being female. You really should sit down and listen to what the pastors in Texas tell the girls here about what is and is not acceptable to happen to them.

Rape culture also teaches conservative girls to never speak of such things.

I'll say to you what I say to Christians who want me to believe in their specific deity: if you want me to believe in your god then prove to me he exists instead of pointing to his clear self-evident existence. There seems to be an ever growing list of things conservatives and liberals agree on these days (probably due to the left wing establishment now being antagonistic towards liberals, who knows), and one of them is a befuddlement at the idea of some vast conspiracy that regressives claim is everywhere, yet only ever shows itself in regressive circles, the ghetto and Islamic immigrant communities. No wonder there are so many atheists towards this god.

Agema:

No, conspiracies and cultures of silence work because: a) that behaviour is widely tolerated within those circles; and b) where it is not tolerated, conspirators have and use the power necessary to shut people up.

It's not even been a secret anyhow, I can't remember a time in my life people where not aware of the casting couch or of politicians having such scandals. The only thing I see differently is that the hypocrisy of many is being exposed with it, from the fact most of those accused have been those who follow a single fringe political ideology that most everyone, left or right, hate, to those who try and paint the "real" problem as being something it isn't or groups that haven't had this issue arise be those "really" responsible. It's like how we're told that 33 thousand people can die from terrorist attacks from Islamists since 9/11 but it's not because of the religious beliefs every single attacker explicitly stated was their reason, yet less then two dozen people can die from similar attacks from Incels and that's suddenly a problem.

MeToo didn't tell us anything we didn't already know, it just showed that some ideologies, no matter how over-represented they are, can apparently do no harm, while others, no matter how under-presented they are, are unforgivable. Not that anyone wasn't aware of these facts of life, the whole house of cards would fall down if we started treating people equally. The morality gap that exists between liberals and conservatives on one side and "progressives", communists, white nationalists and religious extremists on the other is becoming more apparent by the day.

Zontar:

Lil devils x:
No, it is not just " most" just the males claiming to be feminists are more likely to apologize or resign where the conservatives just lie about it. Lying about it is actually much worse.

Unless the entire MeToo movement has been another case of the left wing media wanting to paint the left wing bad for reasons only they know, it is, in fact, a case of "most". Yes, there are conservatives who are being accused, and yes, there are liberals being accused, but most of those being accused are neither, and are instead illiberal regressives.

I call BS on them coming from where there is a "small fringe" where there is a problem. It is most rampant in the most conservative parts of the country. The places where rape culture is the worst is the most affluent, conservative areas by far. Conservative women are the least likely to talk about it. They teach their daughters to keep quiet instead. I know this because this is what many mothers taught us in this area. In fact, our churches here often teach us that being abused just comes with the territory of being female. You really should sit down and listen to what the pastors in Texas tell the girls here about what is and is not acceptable to happen to them.

Rape culture also teaches conservative girls to never speak of such things.

I'll say to you what I say to Christians who want me to believe in their specific deity: if you want me to believe in your god then prove to me he exists instead of pointing to his clear self-evident existence. There seems to be an ever growing list of things conservatives and liberals agree on these days (probably due to the left wing establishment now being antagonistic towards liberals, who knows), and one of them is a befuddlement at the idea of some vast conspiracy that regressives claim is everywhere, yet only ever shows itself in regressive circles, the ghetto and Islamic immigrant communities. No wonder there are so many atheists towards this god.

1) the reason why the media focuses on the "liberal abusers" is that these were people who pretended to care about the issue. Everyone ALREADY KNOWS the conservatives do not care about women being abused as they are primarily the ones promoting it to be acceptable behavior. It is only news when someone pretends to be a good guy and then turns out to be an arse, not the arse everyone already knows is an arse. No one is surprised Trump sexually assaulted people because he was the type of guy to brag about it. It becomes " non news" because it is expected for him to act that way.

2)Um... WTH you on about now? It shows itself in prominent affluent Christian communities all over the place, not just in ghettos and Islamic communities. This area is Conservative Christian GOP stronghold and has more billionaires than the entire rest of the state of Texas and has a rampant rape, sexual and physical abuse problem. It is corrupt as you can get to where even the police are doing it so there is no one for girls to call for help when it happens to them. The wealthiest, whitest, most Christian area ALSO has a police department that has continually had sexual assault issues as well as a high school DARE officer who was raping a 13 year old girl and giving her drugs. THIS is where the football team can gang rape a girl in the Parkinglot while people walk by and no one cares. Yes, THIS Zontar, is where rape culture lives. This is not some quirk, it is what is expected in the white Christian strongholds because a "woman" is expected to know her place. Rapes are commonplace here, it is also common place to know you should not go to the police if you are raped as well. The entire GOP in the US is regressive, that is a whole lot of USA that is covered there.

Zontar:
yet less then two dozen people can die from similar attacks from Incels and that's suddenly a problem.

Well... surely it is a problem if people are murdering other people just because they can't get laid? I mean, that is a problem, right? And one that maybe has nothing to do with international terrorism. Weird that you compared them, to be honest.

Baffle2:

Zontar:
yet less then two dozen people can die from similar attacks from Incels and that's suddenly a problem.

Well... surely it is a problem if people are murdering other people just because they can't get laid? I mean, that is a problem, right? And one that maybe has nothing to do with international terrorism. Weird that you compared them, to be honest.

I compare the two because it shows the blatant hypocrisy of quite a few people and establishments. The response to tens of thousands of people being murdered in the name of a backwater religion that is fundamentally incompatible with western values is a round of "well ackchyually it's [insert excuse here]", that every single one of the countless perpetrators is lying about their motivation, that counter terrorist experts are lying abut their motivation, that former radicals turned counter terrorist advisers are all lying about their motives, all for reasons that no one has made clear since the people assuring us that all those who would know are lying to us have no rational ideological reason to do so since the belief system is about as incompatible with their own as it gets. And yet, when less then one tenth of one percent as many people die from "Incels" in the same timeframe, we get 3 weeks of wall to wall coverage about how the inability to get laid is an ideology, and a dangerous one, and should be treated as such. Never mind the fact that you're more likely to die from a Muslim radical from any one specific nation then from any Incel, never mind the fact the same is true of immigrants from any African or Latino country, never mind the fact that even East Asians, the least likely group to murder in the West, are more likely to murder you, but above it all, it's also racist in a sense because minorities, especially blacks, are massively over-represented amongst them.

I mean sure, it's nice to know once and for all who wins out in the Oppression Olympics between blacks and Muslims (the answer being obvious), but the sheer hypocrisy is revolting. The next time a Muslim terrorist strikes, I'll remind people of how unequal the treatment of violence is. Though it is laughably easy to paint certain radicals who claim to fight for equality as being a group that doesn't see Muslims as human given they don't treat them equally to the rest of us, but then regressives seeing some animals as more equal then the rest isn't anything new or unknown. Even Orwell knew some animals where more equal then others after all.

Lil devils x:
The entire GOP in the US is regressive, that is a whole lot of USA that is covered there.

Given how MeToo was the chance to bring all of this to light, the deafening silence speaks volumes.

Lil devil, I've never had a reason to take you at your word before, I certainly don't now. Just as I don't have any reason to take yellow journalists at their word. I know you hate your home state, but it seems odd that such a shithole is the type of place that people are fleeing blue states to move into if it where even half as bad as you claim it is.

I could go on all day about how in California there's state sponsored rape gang who exist solely to commit Congo style terror spreading tactics, but I don't think anyone would buy that. Yes we all know California is a shithole, worst then even Mississippi now, and the rape problem in Democrat strongholds is getting pretty bad out there, but there are some things people won't believe unless something beyond the words of an openly partisan player are used. So why should I believe you or the almost always partisan sources you use?

Zontar:

I compare the two because it shows the blatant hypocrisy of quite a few people and establishments. The response to tens of thousands of people being murdered in the name of a backwater religion that is fundamentally incompatible with western values is a round of "well ackchyually it's [insert excuse here]", that every single one of the countless perpetrators is lying about their motivation, that counter terrorist experts are lying abut their motivation, that former radicals turned counter terrorist advisers are all lying about their motives, all for reasons that no one has made clear since the people assuring us that all those who would know are lying to us have no rational ideological reason to do so since the belief system is about as incompatible with their own as it gets. And yet, when less then one tenth of one percent as many people die from "Incels" in the same timeframe, we get 3 weeks of wall to wall coverage about how the inability to get laid is an ideology, and a dangerous one, and should be treated as such. Never mind the fact that you're more likely to die from a Muslim radical from any one specific nation then from any Incel, never mind the fact the same is true of immigrants from any African or Latino country, never mind the fact that even East Asians, the least likely group to murder in the West, are more likely to murder you, but above it all, it's also racist in a sense because minorities, especially blacks, are massively over-represented amongst them.

So... your complaint is that something that happens less often is considered more newsworthy? Wasn't there a thread just the other day in which it had to be explained to someone (I forget who) over and over again that rarity was itself one of the reasons things reach the news?

We haven't had wall-to-wall coverage of incel stuff here (I've noticed an article or two over the last few weeks). I find that if I don't actively look for news on certain subjects, or surround myself with people who do (incel echo chamber effect?), I'm much less likely to be presented with the idea that the news is all like that.

Zontar:
It's not even been a secret anyhow, I can't remember a time in my life people where not aware of the casting couch or of politicians having such scandals. The only thing I see differently is that the hypocrisy of many is being exposed with it, from the fact most of those accused have been those who follow a single fringe political ideology that most everyone, left or right, hate, to those who try and paint the "real" problem as being something it isn't or groups that haven't had this issue arise be those "really" responsible.

Your ideologically-derived, deluded fantasy that feminism creates sex pests could not interest me less.

It's like how we're told that 33 thousand people can die from terrorist attacks from Islamists since 9/11 but it's not because of the religious beliefs every single attacker explicitly stated was their reason, yet less then two dozen people can die from similar attacks from Incels and that's suddenly a problem.

If you were to poll 100 people about their beliefs and recorded them, you'd find the whole contains inconsistent and incompatible beliefs. The reason for this is that different people have different beliefs. Consequently, when you attempt to represent a nebulous group of people and note inconsistent beliefs within that whole, it doesn't necessarily mean anything at all.

MeToo didn't tell us anything we didn't already know...

Let's consider consistency on a more appropriate, personal level.

What you're doing here is trivialising sexual assault out of antipathy to feminists. In another thread recently, you were raging about leftists who wanted the Korean peace talks to fail out of antipathy to Trump. That's fair enough. But you're basically doing what you have accused others of: you're so angry at any sort of success that might be associated with feminism, you can't even appreciate the basics of justice against sexual harassment and assault.

Zontar:
...the whole house of cards would fall down if we started treating people equally.

I'm all for treating people equally. That's why I believe non-US Muslims should not be arbitrarily denied entry to the USA based on their nationality, and neither should non-US "incels" be denied for the same reason.

How are you doing on that score?

Baffle2:

So... your complaint is that something that happens less often is considered more newsworthy? Wasn't there a thread just the other day in which it had to be explained to someone (I forget who) over and over again that rarity was itself one of the reasons things reach the news?

Rarity is one thing, but the way it was being presented by the media, you'd think it was a left wing comedy's caricature of how the right presents Muslim terrorism in terms of how large and imminent the threat was treated.

Agema:
Your ideologically-derived, deluded fantasy that feminism creates sex pests could not interest me less.

I never implied it creates anything, I stated the observation that male feminists are massively over represented amongst the accused. They are a majority of those accused yet only 1 in 5 men are feminists.

If you were to poll 100 people about their beliefs and recorded them, you'd find the whole contains inconsistent and incompatible beliefs. The reason for this is that different people have different beliefs. Consequently, when you attempt to represent a nebulous group of people and note inconsistent beliefs within that whole, it doesn't necessarily mean anything at all.

There's a difference between the inconsistencies of liberalism and conservatism, which are different but fundamentally compatible (and most rational people would argue both necessary), and something like liberalism and wahhabism.

Let's consider consistency on a more appropriate, personal level.

What you're doing here is trivialising sexual assault out of antipathy to feminists. In another thread recently, you were raging about leftists who wanted the Korean peace talks to fail out of antipathy to Trump. That's fair enough. But you're basically doing what you have accused others of: you're so angry at any sort of success that might be associated with feminism, you can't even appreciate the basics of justice against sexual harassment and assault.

And where exactly did I state we should reverse what MeToo has accomplished? If anything I applaud MeToo because it has purged Hollywood of quite a few of its progressives and created a vacuum in the industry that will likely be filled by more competent liberals, and possibly even conservatives if Hollywood takes this opportunity to cast aside its ideological bigotry.

MeToo wasn't a win for feminists, at best it was net neutral given the fact half the movement is now suspect by the other half.

I'm all for treating people equally. That's why I believe a non-US Muslim should not be arbitrarily denied entry to the USA who happens to come from a certain country, and neither should non-US "incels".

How are you doing on that score?

I think that people entering the country should be vetted, and that it would be foolish to have that level be equal, since nations like Japan, Germany, Argentina, South Africa, Australia, Pakistan and Iran are by no metric all comparable to the others listed. I also think that only those who hold views compatible with those which my country was founded upon should be permitted to move in. While that may considered radical by some, in Canada and all of mainland Europe save Spain it's the majority opinion, and in the UK and Spain the plurality.

Zontar:

Lil devils x:
The entire GOP in the US is regressive, that is a whole lot of USA that is covered there.

Given how MeToo was the chance to bring all of this to light, the deafening silence speaks volumes.

Lil devil, I've never had a reason to take you at your word before, I certainly don't now. Just as I don't have any reason to take yellow journalists at their word. I know you hate your home state, but it seems odd that such a shithole is the type of place that people are fleeing blue states to move into if it where even half as bad as you claim it is.

Me too was a chance for what? All it is is a bunch of people trying to band together to speak up about what has happened to them for better or worse of what happens to them for doing so. Women have always been taught " safety in numbers" so they were trying it. That is all it is nothing more, nothing less. I do not see it making much of a difference as to what happens to the next girl either way tbh. These things are going to keep happening and I do not see anything slowing it down as it is too ingrained in our current society for that to happen any time soon. All Metoo is people starting to talk about it. I guess that is a start.

1) I have never given you reason to doubt my word. It may come as a surprise to you, but I have been as accurate as possible to describe the events that have taken place here. You choose to believe "alternative facts" rather than reality. Good grief you were posting pizza gate nonsense on here. Just for a second think "what if everything she has said was 100% true" then you would finally be waking up to reality here for a change.

2)I have provided numerous links to all of these things that have occurred repeatedly over the years here. Want some more? There are more than I know what to do with here tbh..
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2000/aug/15/rockwall-tx-jailers-indicted-in-sex-for-contraband-case/
http://www.rockwallheraldbanner.com/news/local_news/three-rockwall-students-arrested-on-rape-charges/article_c4c8112d-d370-53bf-a31c-0032ac93a6a1.html
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/news/2010/03/10/20100309-Ex-Rockwall-district-attorney-Ray-Sumrow-5065
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2014/12/04/ex-kaufman-county-jp-guilty-of-capital-murder-in-killing-of-das-wife
https://www.pressreader.com/usa/the-dallas-morning-news/20070209/282359740242145
http://www.fox4news.com/news/rockwall-pe-teacher-accused-in-child-sex-case
https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/blog/morning_call/2014/03/25-of-the-worlds-billionaires-call-dallas-fort.html
http://blueribbonnews.com/2017/03/rockwall-county-jury-sentences-resident-to-life-in-prison-for-child-sexual-abuse/

It honestly goes on and on and never stops here.

Just to name a few. I am not talking about some "hypothetical crap" I am talking about real events that have taken place here and will continue to take place since nothing is being done to change it. I am realistic in understanding that it is going to take far more than a few people speaking up to make real changes here. If anything, sadly it could even set it back because conservative girls do not want to be associated with the liberal ones and will have even more reason to keep their silence so they are not compared to them. That would be social suicide in their social circles and they would be ridiculed and shunned for speaking about it here.

You should understand that sadly, there is nothing I told you here that did not happen. So much more keeps happening than I could even begin to get into. It is just that bad. This isn't some ghetto here, this area does not even have slums. It is full of mansions and castles. It is not some rare event, actually this isn't even as bad as most of the conservative states. Good grief the entire southern US should make you understand how bad this actually is.

People move all over the US all the time, it is not just a matter of blue to red. Here this may help you get a better understanding of it:
https://www.forbes.com/special-report/2011/migration.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/upshot/mapping-migration-in-the-united-states-since-1900.html

People primarily move to Texas, for example, because the cost of living is rather low ( until you start looking at air conditioning bills), you get more house for your dollar and there are jobs even when the rest of the country may not have them. Due to how spread out everything is here, you an have a castle or mansion for fairly cheap. The property values and cost of living is so high in California, it makes it difficult for you to be able to get much for your dollar spent. California is beautiful, Texas really is not so you do sort of get what you pay for. Texas is flat and mostly desert and the water is undrinkable, but hey you can build yerself a mansion for next to nothing in a floodzone and the building standards are awful so it doesn't matter if it falls down or not from the 90mph straight winds... There is a reason why these things are the way they are...

YES Texas is really that stupid.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/What-s-in-a-floodway-In-Houston-20-000-12409821.php
http://cbsaustin.com/news/local/construction-workers-leaving-texas-due-to-low-wages-political-climate
http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2017/nov/17/3200-prison-jobs-unfilled-texas-low-wages-better-o/
http://bettertexasblog.org/2017/03/harder-get-minimum-wage-job-texas-ever/

I hate this state because of all the stupid shat people do here. If I didn't worry about caring for my elderly mother, I would have left by now. She will not leave the house my father built.

Zontar:
I never implied it creates anything, I stated the observation that male feminists are massively over represented amongst the accused. They are a majority of those accused yet only 1 in 5 men are feminists.

Firstly, I'm not aware anyone's done a comprehensive counting of people caught by #MeToo and what their feminist affiliations are. Secondly, there's the issue (as Silentpony noted) of whether they are feminists, or loudly spout feminism as an attempt to cover their shady activities.

There's a difference between the inconsistencies of liberalism and conservatism, which are different but fundamentally compatible (and most rational people would argue both necessary), and something like liberalism and wahhabism.

Yes, but that's comparing apples and oranges. Conservatism is a broad belief system with many variants, whereas Wahhabism is a specific variant of a broader belief system.

And where exactly did I state we should reverse what MeToo has accomplished? If anything I applaud MeToo because it has purged Hollywood of quite a few of its progressives

You do realise that that is exactly what I mean about diminishing the uncovering of sex attackers?

I think that people entering the country should be vetted, and that it would be foolish to have that level be equal, since nations like Japan, Germany, Argentina, South Africa, Australia, Pakistan and Iran are by no metric all comparable to the others listed. I also think that only those who hold views compatible with those which my country was founded upon should be permitted to move in. While that may considered radical by some, in Canada and all of mainland Europe save Spain it's the majority opinion, and in the UK and Spain the plurality.

Well, you've dodged the question, but I remember perfectly well you supporting Trump's Muslim ban back in 2017.

You've been talking up individualism, recently. The only thing to measure of an individual's fitness to enter your country is that individual.

When you talk about "vetting" to be "compatible" with your country's views, you're at risk of individualism being damned. The more you decide what "compatible" should represent, the more you deny individualism. At a certain level - e.g. barring entry to criminals or those who encourage criminality - it's hard to object to. But you only need to go a little further and you're essentially into politicised declarations of "right" and "wrong" thought.

I care about and think this is important, because I am a liberal. You have to realise that whilst conservatism and liberalism has an overlap, actually the broach church of conservatism can uphold some distinctly illiberal sects. I'm no friend of the extreme end of progressivism, but when I look at a lot of their varied opposition, plenty of those groups strike me as either no improvement or even worse.

Zontar:
I never implied it creates anything, I stated the observation that male feminists are massively over represented amongst the accused. They are a majority of those accused yet only 1 in 5 men are feminists.

The obvious answer to that discrepancy is that serial sexual abusers do not want to be publicly outed as serial sexual abusers, and so go to great lengths to make sure everyone believes that they are the polar opposite of a serial sexual abuser. Harvey Weinstein pretends to be a progressive feminist. Bill Cosby pretends to be a warm father figure. Roy Moore pretends to be a Christian. The list goes on.

Zontar:
I could go on all day about how in California there's state sponsored rape gang who exist solely to commit Congo style terror spreading tactics, but I don't think anyone would buy that.

Not without a source of some kind, no.

bastardofmelbourne:
. Harvey Weinstein pretends to be a progressive feminist. Bill Cosby pretends to be a warm father figure. Roy Moore pretends to be a Christian. The list goes on..

That's not quite right, in the most unsettling way. Those men aren't pretending to be those things, they are those things.

In addition to sexual abuse and rape.

Being a Christian feminist father doesn't exclude you from being a rapist too. Especially the christian part. They crazy

undeadsuitor:

bastardofmelbourne:
. Harvey Weinstein pretends to be a progressive feminist. Bill Cosby pretends to be a warm father figure. Roy Moore pretends to be a Christian. The list goes on..

That's not quite right, in the most unsettling way. Those men aren't pretending to be those things, they are those things.

In addition to sexual abuse and rape.

Being a Christian feminist father doesn't exclude you from being a rapist too. Especially the christian part. They crazy

Yeah, second that. Each of those people has supporters, who genuinely see them as good people, and with evidence to back that up. They just don't always do the sexual abuse stuff when their friends are around.

undeadsuitor:

bastardofmelbourne:
. Harvey Weinstein pretends to be a progressive feminist. Bill Cosby pretends to be a warm father figure. Roy Moore pretends to be a Christian. The list goes on..

That's not quite right, in the most unsettling way. Those men aren't pretending to be those things, they are those things.

In addition to sexual abuse and rape.

Being a Christian feminist father doesn't exclude you from being a rapist too. Especially the christian part. They crazy

^THIS^. This is the core of the problem here. The people who do these things are friends, family, neighbors, loved ones. They just also happen to be someone who does terrible things in addition to everything else they do. The entire idea that they are someone separate from society is part of why they are allowed to get away with it as much as they currently do. It isn't some dark shadowy figure, it is our loved ones who do these things and they are our families, friends and neighbors.

The entire idea that this is something that "happens elsewhere" to someone else is part of why it is as bad as it is. This happens in all communities, social classes, even in the finest schools and homes. This is not something that is even separate from society but rather it is a part of it. That has to be addressed to be able to reduce it. I do not ever think it will be " solved" just hopefully reduced from it's current levels is the best I can hope for.

Zontar:
I know you hate your home state, but it seems odd that such a shithole is the type of place that people are fleeing blue states to move into if it where even half as bad as you claim it is.

I can't testify for his particular red state, but this is one very red region that young people especially are FLEEING, and even the old people are saying they understand why.

Agema:
Firstly, I'm not aware anyone's done a comprehensive counting of people caught by #MeToo and what their feminist affiliations are. Secondly, there's the issue (as Silentpony noted) of whether they are feminists, or loudly spout feminism as an attempt to cover their shady activities.

Whether or not it's a case of them actually being feminists or using it as a defence, the connection between male feminists and men with something to hid now exists. Which isn't hard to understand given how hard it is for a man to justify being a feminist in this day and age (though in fairness that difficulty also exists in women, which is probably why only 1 in 4 women is a feminist in the US).

Yes, but that's comparing apples and oranges. Conservatism is a broad belief system with many variants, whereas Wahhabism is a specific variant of a broader belief system.

Yes, and yet Wahhabists are constantly denied agency for their actions whenever one of them blows themselves up or shoots a place up or drives into people or stabs a bunch of people. Denied agency by many of the same people who go on about how we need to treat everyone equally (as they see it, it would seem). Wahhabism isn't as fringe as people like to think it is, there are more people who follow it then there are Americans, yet all those people are constantly denied agency by the media and a large part of society, for reasons that don't make any sense from an ideological standpoint and certainly don't from a viewpoint of equal treatment.

You do realise that that is exactly what I mean about diminishing the uncovering of sex attackers?

Not really, you'll have to do into detail as to how that is the case, since unless you're going to show me that the oddly partisan nature of those exposed will lead to justice not being served that otherwise would have been, I just don't see it. But then as someone in the 85% of society that isn't affiliated with the dominant group of those being outed by all this I don't really have anything to loose either way, but do explain how the lopsided nature of those exposed is leading to a diminishment of the uncovering of sex attackers.

Well, you've dodged the question, but I remember perfectly well you supporting Trump's Muslim ban back in 2017.

You've been talking up individualism, recently. The only thing to measure of an individual's fitness to enter your country is that individual.

When you talk about "vetting" to be "compatible" with your country's views, you're at risk of individualism being damned. The more you decide what "compatible" should represent, the more you deny individualism. At a certain level - e.g. barring entry to criminals or those who encourage criminality - it's hard to object to. But you only need to go a little further and you're essentially into politicised declarations of "right" and "wrong" thought.

I care about and think this is important, because I am a liberal. You have to realise that whilst conservatism and liberalism has an overlap, actually the broach church of conservatism can uphold some distinctly illiberal sects. I'm no friend of the extreme end of progressivism, but when I look at a lot of their varied opposition, plenty of those groups strike me as either no improvement or even worse.

I'll be blunt, I, like most Westerners I do support a blanket ban on Muslim immigration. Yes, I know that's an unpopular opinion here (though not in society at large as every poll indicates), but there are factors as to why I hold this view. Some ideological, some pragmatic, some personal. Here's a short list of some of them:

-There's already a level of immigration into Canada that's impossible to justify (which is why political entities that support it don't bother to do so). Even if we limited ourselves to only first world nations, safe developing nations, and the cream of the crop for third world nations, with how long the queue is the line would still be very long even without them.
-There is a massive skills gap. Like it or not we are not being sent their best. This isn't exclusive to Muslim countries, far from it, but a policy of only taking in immigrants that are actually worth taking in for skilled work (re: not below-unskilled labourers who harm my socioeconomic class by their mere presence) will get next to all of them anyway.
-The problems of radicalisation are already starting to sink in here. We have had two attacks in recent years despite how small our Muslim population is, one of which was in my own home town. CSIS has proven itself ineffective at dealing with this problem, and even as we speak there are dozens of ISIS terrorists around the country which the government is making no secret of the fact it doesn't know where they are and is making no attempt to round them up. (incidentally, it looks like Trudeau will only have one term in office at this rate, can't imagine why).

The simple fact of the matter is we aren't vetting them well enough, we aren't integrating them well enough, and while they are by far the worst off this is also true of other immigrant communities as well. We need dramatic immigration reform if we aren't going to turn into another Brazil where a heavily militarised police is a necessity to keep the fucking country together. There's a heavy aversion to learning from history by Millennials (probably because most would find their ideology has failed beyond the point of being able to be defended rationally), but I paid attention, and the libertarian case for a strong border (contrary to popular belief by socialists they actually believe in the need for a strong border stronger then most groups, and it isn't inconsistent with their ideology) is just too well rounded not to support. I'm an individualist, I'm also someone who wants to see my country remain a liberal democracy, and the road we're travelling down, that would require white Canadians and the immigrants we're taking it to be an innately superior breed of our species above all that have come before and currently can be observed. I'm not that arrogant to believe we are.

You want me to judge people as individuals when it comes to immigration? Well, don't follow a religion that is impossible to reconcile with the core liberal democratic values of my country without entering outright heresy for your own religion. I wouldn't want Nazis or communists to move here either, as theirs are equally incompatible beliefs. Though last time I checked, while Muslims had for a time been banned from entering the US, I'm under the impression Nazis still are.

Smithnikov:

Zontar:
I know you hate your home state, but it seems odd that such a shithole is the type of place that people are fleeing blue states to move into if it where even half as bad as you claim it is.

I can't testify for his particular red state, but this is one very red region that young people especially are FLEEING, and even the old people are saying they understand why.

You'll need to be more specific, since it isn't Texas, Arizona, Utah, Georgia or Florida, since all of them are seeing immigration from blue states like California (though then again, pretty much every state in the midwest, south west and west coast is seeing California immigration since the middle and upper class are bugging out).

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