Why have conservatives lost hope in the future?

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT
 

Saelune:
Political stances are choices people make. You are not born your political stance. Anyone can choose to be a Nazi. Anyone can choose to not be a Nazi. You want to pretend hating black people is the same as hating Nazis, and you are wrong.

Saelune, you're doing that thing where you talk about things that have not happened and that nobody is even remotely implying again.

Unless you are implying that all Republicans are Nazi's. In which case, you go for it. It's probably a bit exposed and windy up on the moral high ground, after all.

Catnip1024:

Saelune:
Political stances are choices people make. You are not born your political stance. Anyone can choose to be a Nazi. Anyone can choose to not be a Nazi. You want to pretend hating black people is the same as hating Nazis, and you are wrong.

Saelune, you're doing that thing where you talk about things that have not happened and that nobody is even remotely implying again.

Unless you are implying that all Republicans are Nazi's. In which case, you go for it. It's probably a bit exposed and windy up on the moral high ground, after all.

Implying? Republicans are the modern Nazi Party. I apologize if it ever seemed like I was only implying that Nazis support Republicans and Republicans support Nazis. I mean, I have made multiple topics about it, how Trump defends Nazis, how Republicans can't even denounce Nazis as terrorists.

If Republicans are not Nazis, then they would have no trouble denouncing them and pushing away their support. But they do.

But as for you side-tracking this, you are trying to argue that political opinion is = to a person's ethnicity which is untrue and unfair. If people do not like being hated for their political opinion, they can change it. I mean, some people disagree with me and think rape is a-ok. Should I listen to their point? Should I consider the value of rape being ok? Is it terrible of me to outright oppose and condemn pro-rape people?

The non-hypocritical answer based on what you have said is that I should consider their opinion, as heinous as it might be. But then, well, you would be falling for my trap. But honestly, I do not want to trick you into defending pro-rapists, I want you to understand why I am not wrong for condemning political groups for their terrible views.

Saelune:
Bernie sucks.

Fuck Bernie, I am tired of old white men ruining everything.

Bernie would still be droning people. Though he would probably not fuck up as Trump has. It will likely take multiple consecutive presidencies advocating peace and fairness to stop that, but as long as right-wingers keep disjointing that, it won't end until we are ended.

Wait wait wait, hold up now.

So the guy who was pushing for LGBT rights waaaaaay ages ago, long before it was national conversation...

Who literally marched with the civil rights movement and got arrested for it...

Who voted against the Iraq war and is on the record as being against war...

Who wants to give the US the same universal right to healthcare that every other modern nation has, which would save hundreds of thousands of lives needlessly lost every year...

Who despite having supported guns, still gets a D rating from the NRA, and who is pushing for reform now and actually calling out the NRA gun manufacturer money by name...

Who is the only visible member of government calling out the corruption of corporate money in politics...

Who literally let BLM activists take his stage at a rally he was hosting and let them say their peace and listened to them...

This guy is an old white man trying to ruin everything, who would still be droning people?

Have you actually looked into him and his record? He's not perfect, obviously (I'd like him to call out Saudi arabia's genocide in yemen and the frankly one-sided violence happening in israel, for example), but he's miles better than everyone else right now.

Like, I usually respect your opinion even when you're overzealous, because I understand why you're like that. But you're just wrong on this.

aegix drakan:

Saelune:
Bernie sucks.

Fuck Bernie, I am tired of old white men ruining everything.

Bernie would still be droning people. Though he would probably not fuck up as Trump has. It will likely take multiple consecutive presidencies advocating peace and fairness to stop that, but as long as right-wingers keep disjointing that, it won't end until we are ended.

Wait wait wait, hold up now.

So the guy who was pushing for LGBT rights waaaaaay ages ago, long before it was national conversation...

Who literally marched with the civil rights movement and got arrested for it...

Who voted against the Iraq war and is on the record as being against war...

Who wants to give the US the same universal right to healthcare that every other modern nation has, which would save hundreds of thousands of lives needlessly lost every year...

Who despite having supported guns, still gets a D rating from the NRA, and who is pushing for reform now and actually calling out the NRA gun manufacturer money by name...

Who is the only visible member of government calling out the corruption of corporate money in politics...

Who literally let BLM activists take his stage at a rally he was hosting and let them say their peace and listened to them...

This guy is an old white man trying to ruin everything, who would still be droning people?

Have you actually looked into him and his record? He's not perfect, obviously (I'd like him to call out Saudi arabia's genocide in yemen and the frankly one-sided violence happening in israel, for example), but he's miles better than everyone else right now.

Like, I usually respect your opinion even when you're overzealous, because I understand why you're like that. But you're just wrong on this.

If he cared about these enough, he would have reigned in his legion. Bernie helped Trump win and I will never forgive him for that.

Yes, Bernie is better than Republicans, but he is not better than Obama, which was the catalyst for my rant.

aegix drakan:
-Snorp-

It's pointless trying to persuade Saelune on anything concerning Bernie.
And yet..

Saelune:
If he cared about these enough, he would have reigned in his legion. Bernie helped Trump win and I will never forgive him for that.

Bernie does not have absolute control over his supporters.
He told them to support Clinton, he put his own support behind Clinton, many people felt betrayed by that.

If anything is the problem here it's the #StillWithHer and #Resistance people who're obstructing any kind of progress at getting a viable Democratic competitor to oppose Trump in the rapidly approaching 2020 elections, on top of all the bullshit Democrat politicians are failing to do to actually fight back.

Dr. Thrax:

aegix drakan:
-Snorp-

It's pointless trying to persuade Saelune on anything concerning Bernie.

What is to convince me about? I would have loved a Bernie Presidency if it meant not a Trump one. In an alternate reality I am criticizing people who voted Clinton even though Bernie was the Democratic Nominee.

Bernie hurt the anti-Trump side. I do not think he meant to, but he did, and did a poor job of damage control. He rallied a group similar in cultish temperament to Trump, who cannot see any wrong in him, and too stubborn to back down for the sake of stopping a common enemy.

Bernie bros don't want to put the work in to actually achieve the goals Bernie supposedly stands for.

And you and aegix (and bastard) have a better chance of persuading me by the way. Others who have shown that cultish loyalty to him, not so much, but the three of you seem like you would have been alright with a Clinton presidency if it meant no Trump. Am I wrong?

Saelune:
If he cared about these enough, he would have reigned in his legion. Bernie helped Trump win and I will never forgive him for that.

Reined them in how? His entire shtick for the last 30 some-odd years has been Policy Substance. The people who supported him did so because of his policies, not because of some cult of personality. The people he pulled in are not the kind of people who he could snap his fingers and say "hey, vote for hillary, because I demand you to do it".

If he came out and was like "no guys I totally saw the light, Hillary's policies are so much better than mine, vote for her" the people who liked him would not have bought it.

The best he could have done was put out a "lesser evil" argument for his followers to implore them that however bad Hillary seemed by their estimation, the alternative was apocalyptically worse and that policies like his would be nearly impossible in the future if Trump got in. Something I'm pretty sure Hillary would give a hard "no" to because she'd think it would make her look bad.

His endorsement for her was more or less the best he could do in the circumstances.

Yes, Bernie is better than Republicans, but he is not better than Obama, which was the catalyst for my rant.

Considering Obama took 2 wars to 7 and couldn't get really meaningful healthcare reform passed even with a supermajority...I'll have to disagree about which of the two is better.

I'm not saying Obama was terrible, though. He's a solid 70% president in my estimation. Not great, but not much better than average. The real thing that saved his tenure in my opinion was the Iran deal. THAT was fantastic, even if the GOP were undermining it even under his own presidency. It was the best thing he did in his entire 8 years, IMO.

Well, that and actually pardoning Chelsea manning as his last act as president was great too (even though he DID still let her rot in prison for years when she's an whistleblowing hero).

Dr. Thrax:

Saelune:
If he cared about these enough, he would have reigned in his legion. Bernie helped Trump win and I will never forgive him for that.

Bernie does not have absolute control over his supporters.
He told them to support Clinton, he put his own support behind Clinton, many people felt betrayed by that.

If anything is the problem here it's the #StillWithHer and #Resistance people who're obstructing any kind of progress at getting a viable Democratic competitor to oppose Trump in the rapidly approaching 2020 elections, on top of all the bullshit Democratic politicians are failing to do to actually fight back.

Just as I blame Trump for his supporters actions, I blame Bernie for his. Would be unfair not to. Bernie should have done a better job of making it clear that Trump is the problem. he put into a lot of left-wingers heads that Clinton is worse than Trump. That is on him. He was short-sighted on that.

Edit: That he intends to run again, shows me he still is short-sighted.

aegix drakan:

Saelune:
If he cared about these enough, he would have reigned in his legion. Bernie helped Trump win and I will never forgive him for that.

Reined them in how? His entire shtick for the last 30 some-odd years has been Policy Substance. The people who supported him did so because of his policies, not because of some cult of personality. The people he pulled in are not the kind of people who he could snap his fingers and say "hey, vote for hillary, because I demand you to do it".

If he came out and was like "no guys I totally saw the light, Hillary's policies are so much better than mine, vote for her" the people who liked him would not have bought it.

The best he could have done was put out a "lesser evil" argument for his followers to implore them that however bad Hillary seemed by their estimation, the alternative was apocalyptically worse and that policies like his would be nearly impossible in the future if Trump got in. Something I'm pretty sure Hillary would give a hard "no" to because she'd think it would make her look bad.

His endorsement for her was more or less the best he could do in the circumstances.

Yes, Bernie is better than Republicans, but he is not better than Obama, which was the catalyst for my rant.

Considering Obama took 2 wars to 7 and couldn't get really meaningful healthcare reform passed even with a supermajority...I'll have to disagree about which of the two is better.

I'm not saying Obama was terrible, though. He's a solid 70% president in my estimation. Not great, but not much better than average. The real thing that saved his tenure in my opinion was the Iran deal. THAT was fantastic, even if the GOP were undermining it even under his own presidency. It was the best thing he did in his entire 8 years, IMO.

Well, that and actually pardoning Chelsea manning as his last act as president was great too (even though he DID still let her rot in prison for years when she's an whistleblowing hero).

The hate Republicans have for Obama has united them into an effective force of ineffectiveness.

Obama's biggest fault though, was his desire to work with both sides.

Bernie should have, throughout his campaign, made it clear that opposing Trump is key. He did not, he hindered Clinton in his attempt to beat her, and it hurt Democrats severely.

Saelune:
Bernie hurt the anti-Trump side. I do not think he meant to, but he did, and did a poor job of damage control. He rallied a group similar in cultish temperament to Trump, who cannot see any wrong in him, and too stubborn to back down for the sake of stopping a common enemy.

Bernie bros don't want to put the work in to actually achieve the goals Bernie supposedly stands for.

You need to realize that there's a vast difference between "Bernie supporters" and "Bernie Bros". Bernie bros are a joke within his supporter community, we don't like them. Bernie doesn't like them. That still doesn't mean that he can single-handedly stop everything the Bernie Bros are doing. He doesn't have absolute control over anyone who follows him, because if you're going to pull that string then I can pull the "Hillary needs to reign in her followers" string now that she's lost and vanished from the public sphere.

And you and aegix (and bastard) have a better chance of persuading me by the way. Others who have shown that cultish loyalty to him, not so much, but the three of you seem like you would have been alright with a Clinton presidency if it meant no Trump. Am I wrong?

Literally the only reason I voted for Clinton was because she wasn't Trump. Yes, I would have vastly preferred Clinton to Trump, I still do. That doesn't change her as a candidate or potential leader. Quite frankly, I shouldn't have even bothered voting. My state is so heavily red that until we absolutely dismantle and reform our election process, my vote will never matter so long as I am in this state. It's only because I didn't want Trump so much that I even bothered dragging my ass to the polls.

Saelune:

And you and aegix (and bastard) have a better chance of persuading me by the way. Others who have shown that cultish loyalty to him, not so much, but the three of you seem like you would have been alright with a Clinton presidency if it meant no Trump. Am I wrong?

If I lived in the US, I'd likely have been paralyzed in the voting booth, then held my nose and voted clinton, despite my fears of her escalating in Syria.

And if she hadn't said anything about "making a no fly zone in syria" and then not seeming to care when it was pointed out that shooting down russian jets could trigger war...Well, it would have been no contest whatsoever. I'd have been in and out of the booth to vote for her in the span of seconds.

She was clearly the lesser of two evils.

Dr. Thrax:

Saelune:
Bernie hurt the anti-Trump side. I do not think he meant to, but he did, and did a poor job of damage control. He rallied a group similar in cultish temperament to Trump, who cannot see any wrong in him, and too stubborn to back down for the sake of stopping a common enemy.

Bernie bros don't want to put the work in to actually achieve the goals Bernie supposedly stands for.

You need to realize that there's a vast difference between "Bernie supporters" and "Bernie Bros". Bernie bros are a joke within his supporter community, we don't like them. Bernie doesn't like them. That still doesn't mean that he can single-handedly stop everything the Bernie Bros are doing. He doesn't have absolute control over anyone who follows him, because if you're going to pull that string then I can pull the "Hillary needs to reign in her followers" string now that she's lost and vanished from the public sphere.

And you and aegix (and bastard) have a better chance of persuading me by the way. Others who have shown that cultish loyalty to him, not so much, but the three of you seem like you would have been alright with a Clinton presidency if it meant no Trump. Am I wrong?

Literally the only reason I voted for Clinton was because she wasn't Trump. Yes, I would have vastly preferred Clinton to Trump, I still do. That doesn't change her as a candidate or potential leader. Quite frankly, I shouldn't have even bothered voting. My state is so heavily red that until we absolutely dismantle and reform our election process, my vote will never matter so long as I am in this state. It's only because I didn't want Trump so much that I even bothered dragging my ass to the polls.

Point to crazed Clinton supporters and I will agree. What? Going to point at me? I am voting whoever is the Democrat's choice some 2020. Clinton, Bernie, Michelle, Jon Stewart, my loyalty is to opposing Republicans.

I don't enjoy complaining about Bernie. I want to stop, I want us to work together, but damn it Bernie has to start this shit again?

The left's greatest and worse trait is our reluctance to just 'fall in line'.

I am discouraged by things like the Electoral College, but now I vote for everything. I don't really know how helpful it is, but I can't risk not doing it. I used to neglect smaller elections, but not any more. There are a surprising amount of Republican politicians on Long Island.

aegix drakan:

Saelune:

And you and aegix (and bastard) have a better chance of persuading me by the way. Others who have shown that cultish loyalty to him, not so much, but the three of you seem like you would have been alright with a Clinton presidency if it meant no Trump. Am I wrong?

If I lived in the US, I'd likely have been paralyzed in the voting booth, then held my nose and voted clinton, despite my fears of her escalating in Syria.

And if she hadn't said anything about "making a no fly zone in syria" and then not seeming to care when it was pointed out that shooting down russian jets could trigger war...Well, it would have been no contest whatsoever. I'd have been in and out of the booth to vote for her in the span of seconds.

She was clearly the lesser of two evils.

Lesser Evils is an unfortunate but real thing in US elections, and the world at large. Throughout history we champion the lesser evils. Washington was a lesser evil compared to England, but he still owned slaves. Lincoln was a lesser evil, cause though he ended slavery, it was not thorough, and was not out of a hate for slavery, but for a love of union of State.

Gay Rights movement was a lesser evil too, for many pioneers of the movement were sexist and reluctant to support trans rights cause they felt it would hurt their own rights movement. Unfortunate, but LGBT rights would be farther back if they never started at all back then.

We live in a very flawed world, we have to do the best we can but understand that lesser evils can lead to even lesser evils than that. I hope one day that Democrats now will be the greater evil to an even more progressive party and that Republicans will be a memory of past bigotry, but we won't get there if people cannot stand to do things like vote for Hillary when the alternative is Trump.

Saelune:
No President is innocent. He is definitely better than every modern 'republican' President. Obama's main contender would be Lincoln, who by modern standards would be a Democrat

On what stance? Social issues? Ha!

And Obama was blatantly better than McCain, Romney, Hilary, Trump and Bernie.

Better than four people who didn't become president and one person who did.

You've provided very little justification to your "best president ever" statement

Saelune:
Implying? Republicans are the modern Nazi Party. I apologize if it ever seemed like I was only implying that Nazis support Republicans and Republicans support Nazis. I mean, I have made multiple topics about it, how Trump defends Nazis, how Republicans can't even denounce Nazis as terrorists.

Yep, that's why I goose-stepped to my local GOP meeting in full SA atire and started handing out pamphlets containing excerpts of The Myth of the 20th Century.

Oh wait, no. That didn't happen.

Also, for a bunch of Nazis, we apparently love Israel a lot. Maybe that's just because we want them all right where we can see them. Oh wait no, that doesn't make any sense either.

I want you to understand why I am not wrong for condemning political groups for their terrible views.

It's not that you're wrong for condemning political groups. That's fine. I have no problem condemning whatever political group you belong to. It's that you paint with an indiscriminate and broad brush.

If he cared about these enough, he would have reigned in his legion. Bernie helped Trump win and I will never forgive him for that.

If the Bernouts wouldn't fall in line, I would attribute that more to the Clinton campaign not conducting itself with the best optics within the democratic party.

He did not, he hindered Clinton in his attempt to beat her, and it hurt Democrats severely. .... And now after hindering Hillary last election, he has the nerve to run again!?

You know that's the point of a primary election, right? You do also realize that the Clinton family... they aren't the democratic party? And vice-versa? Right?

aegix drakan:
The real thing that saved his tenure in my opinion was the Iran deal. THAT was fantastic, even if the GOP were undermining it even under his own presidency.

It's one of the things that I, a staunch republican, am willing to give him credit for. It was a good deal.

aegix drakan:
Who literally let BLM activists take his stage at a rally he was hosting and let them say their peace and listened to them...

bastardofmelbourne:
The drones are a genuine problem for me. On the one hand, a drone airstrike is theoretically more precise and less risky than putting boots on the ground, and drone surveillance facilitates the intelligence-gathering that allows an airstrike to avoid bombing the wrong target. On the other hand, the US military seems to have taken the fact that drones are a low-risk method of killing from afar and started resorting to them much more often, resulting in greater overall bloodshed.

The issue for me is targeting. We use indiscriminate weapons in areas where there isn't much of a clear distinction between military targets (legal to blow up, arguably), and civilian targets (illegal to blow up, unarguably)

We can't really fight with conventional military tactics against non-state actors. I fear that our involvement in the Middle East is continuing to throw good money after bad to avoid admitting that all the blood and treasure we spent hasn't actually changed anything long term. Just look at the Iraqi elections from a short while ago.

Mensch has had a few too many, if you ask me.

I called her fake news over twitter and she blocked me. Proud moment.

Saelune:
Lesser Evils is an unfortunate but real thing in US elections, and the world at large. Throughout history we champion the lesser evils. Washington was a lesser evil compared to England, but he still owned slaves. Lincoln was a lesser evil, cause though he ended slavery, it was not thorough, and was not out of a hate for slavery, but for a love of union of State.

Gay Rights movement was a lesser evil too, for many pioneers of the movement were sexist and reluctant to support trans rights cause they felt it would hurt their own rights movement. Unfortunate, but LGBT rights would be farther back if they never started at all back then.

We live in a very flawed world, we have to do the best we can but understand that lesser evils can lead to even lesser evils than that. I hope one day that Democrats now will be the greater evil to an even more progressive party and that Republicans will be a memory of past bigotry, but we won't get there if people cannot stand to do things like vote for Hillary when the alternative is Trump.

Here's the thing, in the moment of the vote, you should definitely go with the lesser evil. But until then, you should fight with all your power to drag the spectrum closer to good.

That's what's happening now with progressives trying to take over the democratic party and with bernie still making waves.

Because right now, the established democrats are conceding fight after fight to the GOP. Several Dems voted to confirm a war criminal torturer. Some voted for his tax cuts to the richest of the rich, and more. And while this is happening, they don't have a cohesive and strong message to get people to vote for them next time.

The best they have is "we're not trump! We just have a bunch of members who vote for his policies!". Well that and "RUSSIA!", "STORMY DANIELS!", and "Aren't gas prices so high?!" And none of these things are swaying their voters. They've actually gone DOWN in popularity since the election, which is frankly insane.

Meanwhile polls show that healthcare is the biggest concern of the american people, with wars and student loan debt and a living wage not far behind. And yet they refuse to run on any of those popular things which would guarantee their victory. Hell, it's why Bernie consistently polls as the most popular politician in the country, by a country mile. And yet the establishment still doesn't run on them.

Right now, what needs to happen is as strong a progressive push as possible, to force the democratic party further to the left, or if you prefer, further towards these key popular positions, which will make them infinitely more electable come the next election.

That way, if it does end up as Trump VS Corrupt Dem again, the democrat party will be that much more desirable to vote for, because they will have more people in it who support these popular and well-needed policies. It'll give them the best chance.

Now is not the time to "Fall in line". That time comes when there's literally no other choice to stop the corrupt idiot manchild (or whatever other nutcase the GOP can dredge up) from getting elected. Until then, there needs to be as much pulling of the party away from just being the lesser evil.

Because if you only side with the lesser evil and never try to improve it, you just legitimize it and let it continue to be just the lesser evil, and risks sliding the entire spectrum further towards evil. And then you're stuck voting for an increasingly evil lesser evil each time.

----

CM156:

Also, for a bunch of Nazis, we apparently love Israel a lot. Maybe that's just because we want them all right where we can see them. Oh wait no, that doesn't make any sense either.

I can actually explain the GOP's obsession with Israel.

There's two main reasons.

Reason a) They're one of the few non-arab/non-muslim nations in the region, and they're US-friendly. As such the GOP really really wants them to be strong enough to either fend off or bully the muslim/arab nations into submission, or to be a good beachhead/ally in case the US wants to invade one of those places.

Reason b) The GOP is in bed with the religious right. IE, the evangelical christians. The guys who believe in a "biblical prophecy" that when all the jews return to israel, it's one of the key events to trigger the ends times...In which jesus comes back, all the evangelicals are reptured, and then jesus destroys the world (including all or almost all the jews) in a big epic battle versus lucifer.

B sounds crazy, but a whole bunch of them have gone on TV and said how the recent embassy move is "fulfilling biblical prophecy and that's awesome", so...It's a legit thing they believe, and that's pretty scary to me.

aegix drakan:
I can actually explain the GOP's obsession with Israel.

There's two main reasons.

Reason a) They're one of the few non-arab/non-muslim nations in the region, and they're US-friendly. As such the GOP really really wants them to be strong enough to either fend off or bully the muslim/arab nations into submission, or to be a good beachhead/ally in case the US wants to invade one of those places.

Reason b) The GOP is in bed with the religious right. IE, the evangelical christians. The guys who believe in a "biblical prophecy" that when all the jews return to israel, it's one of the key events to trigger the ends times...In which jesus comes back, all the evangelicals are reptured, and then jesus destroys the world (including all or almost all the jews) in a big epic battle versus lucifer.

B sounds crazy, but a whole bunch of them have gone on TV and said how the recent embassy move is "fulfilling biblical prophecy and that's awesome", so...It's a legit thing they believe, and that's pretty scary to me.

I was raised to believe Reason B so as I grew into an adult I started treating the notion with more and more contempt

And yes, it scares me too.

Saelune:
Fuck Bernie, I am tired of old white men ruining everything.

I think Bernie is one of that rare breed of old white men who feel somewhat guilty about having ruined everything over the past half-century and wants to fix it. Could he have done it? I don't know.

But if I were to tie any connection between Clinton's poor voter turnout and Bernie's campaign, I'd put the responsibility on his voters. He endorsed Hillary at the end of the convention; he told them all to go out and vote for her so that Trump wouldn't win. It's not his fault that they didn't listen.

Saelune:
Bernie would still be droning people. Though he would probably not fuck up as Trump has. It will likely take multiple consecutive presidencies advocating peace and fairness to stop that, but as long as right-wingers keep disjointing that, it won't end until we are ended.

Yeah, I figure the military-industrial complex would win that particular arm wrestle. It's very difficult to fight against the current of the foreign policy establishment, especially when it can cost you the support you need to achieve domestic goals.

CM156:
Better than four people who didn't become president and one person who did.

I would personally - bear in mind that I'm just an Australian with access to Wikipedia - rate Obama higher than any president since FDR. (I think JFK is a bit overrated; his best accomplishments came to fruition after his assassination.)

But, again, a lot of Obama's legacy is being dismantled as we speak. And it's the legacy that matters.

CM156:
The issue for me is targeting. We use indiscriminate weapons in areas where there isn't much of a clear distinction between military targets (legal to blow up, arguably), and civilian targets (illegal to blow up, unarguably)

What's needed with drone warfare is restraint, and restraint is unfortunately hard to come by when you're talking about men with the power to order someone's death remotely.

Drones can and have provided a revolution in military intelligence gathering. In theory, this should lead to fewer civilian casualties. In practice - and in retrospect, this was always going to happen - the military just uses the greater intelligence to order many more airstrikes against many more targets.

CM156:
We can't really fight with conventional military tactics against non-state actors. I fear that our involvement in the Middle East is continuing to throw good money after bad to avoid admitting that all the blood and treasure we spent hasn't actually changed anything long term. Just look at the Iraqi elections from a short while ago.

I think any hope of pulling off a grand democratic project in the Middle East through military force is long, long gone. But the problem with the US and the Middle East right now is that it's a lot like having your dick stuck in some brambles - it hurts, and you really oughta pull your dick out, but as soon as you start tugging it hurts even more, and once those brambles are torn out your dick is gonna bleed everywhere. Obama accidentally gave ISIS oxygen by trying to pull his dick out of the brambles. It's just not an easily solved problem.

bastardofmelbourne:
But if I were to tie any connection between Clinton's poor voter turnout and Bernie's campaign, I'd put the responsibility on his voters. He endorsed Hillary at the end of the convention; he told them all to go out and vote for her so that Trump wouldn't win. It's not his fault that they didn't listen.

He could have gotten behind her earlier and firmer than he did, though.

Of course, he might just not have seen Trump as a serious contender and so wasn't too worried with splitting the Dems.

aegix drakan:
Now is not the time to "Fall in line". That time comes when there's literally no other choice to stop the corrupt idiot manchild (or whatever other nutcase the GOP can dredge up) from getting elected. Until then, there needs to be as much pulling of the party away from just being the lesser evil.

Depends how you do it. Now, sure, drive the party towards being better, but you are still going to have much the same party come next election. Driving people away by saying that if you don't agree with Sanders on economic policies you aren't really on the left, and driving people away by saying wanting to ban abortions is fine, it's just politics, we can compromise on that one...both sorts of things could lead to problems later down the line.

Assuming there's reasonably free and fair elections coming up in the US.

You know, I had a longer post thought up before scanning the thread to explain why it seemed conservatives lost hope in the future. It related to the view itself being a generalization about a part of the party, but not the whole, and how it related to views on trump, the "nevertrumpers" conservatives, the political corruption dragging the system, and the view of modern culture abandoning the traditional values the base usually try to stand behind.

But in reading the thread, ran across this here, and I realized no one would care for a long, detailed explanation when this offers the answer so much more succinctly.

Saelune:
Implying? Republicans are the modern Nazi Party.

There is a lack of hope because too many people in mainstream politics actively and honestly believe this sort of grossly divisive tribalism, and use that believe to justify any and every behavior to defeat their opponents because, hey, they are a nazi.

When people view you as the worst sort of monster for disagreeing, and some actively justify retaliation against, and even violence against you for it, I can understand well why conservatives would feel more hopeless.

Of course anyone who bothered to study history would know why it is monumentally stupid to be promoting that sort of feeling across a wide culture in a politically charged environment like we currently have. But I suppose those calling them nazi and treating them like monsters now wont let a little thing like that get in the way of getting their wish that the people they demonize are actually deserving of being called monsters.

runic knight:
When people view you as the worst sort of monster for disagreeing

One can disagree with Saelune without one having to be a member or supporter of any specific political party currently existing.

Thaluikhain:

runic knight:
When people view you as the worst sort of monster for disagreeing

One can disagree with Saelune without one having to be a member or supporter of any specific political party currently existing.

It is not -that- people disagree with me, it is -what- they disagree with me about, but this is a common tactic to downplay and mislead.

Some people disagree with me that Morrowind is the best game ever. Some people disagree with me that black people deserve to be treated equally. One of those disagreements does not make me think they are a bad person.

I do not think someone is a Nazi for liking Oblivion more than Morrowind. I DO think someone is a Nazi when they have views that support, defend, or are otherwise equitable to the Nazi party.

Supporting a political party or view is a choice that people make, and when they make that choice, they are liable for those views. It is NOT the same as being black or gay or a woman. People need to stop pretending that opposing people for their political views is the same as opposing people cause they are a different ethnicity or sexuality.

Saelune:

Fuck Bernie, I am tired of old white men ruining everything.

Yeah, fuck him and his Social Democratic policies that form the most popular policy platform across the country, what we need is another genocide enabling Technocrat that aligns with arms dealers and vulture capitalists! That'll win the country back for sure!

Bernie would still be droning people.

Can I have go of that Crystal ball you're swinging around?

Thaluikhain:

runic knight:
When people view you as the worst sort of monster for disagreeing

One can disagree with Saelune without one having to be a member or supporter of any specific political party currently existing.

Very true. But the problem is they see disagreement as indicative of belonging to a political party that doesn't currently exist, the National Socialist Party of Germany.

Far too often those who think like saelune, especially in politics and the media, are utterly incapable of showing they believe such a distinction exists between disagreement on tolerable methods and disagreement on idealogy. And it would very easily make people lose hope to hear people calling them nazi or worse for disagreeing with them politically, just like they have just demonized the entirety of the party in the broadest of sweeping accusations.

When discourse has devolved to such tribalism, I fully understand why a lot of conservatives, especially ones who have been familiar in politics for a while, would start to feel hopeless about the state of discourse in the world.

runic knight:

When discourse has devolved to such tribalism, I fully understand why a lot of conservatives, especially ones who have been familiar in politics for a while, would start to feel hopeless about the state of discourse in the world.

There's also the aspect of ideological death that looms over many old school conservatives, just as we've seen with liberalism after progressives started taking over the left. Under Obama it seemed that the left had won it all, that Clinton would take office in a glorified rubber stamping ceremony. Then 2015 happened, and in both the US and Europe the largest right wing retaliatory backlash since the 1920s happened after two decades of antagonism, with Gen Z not only being a conservative generation, but being the conservative generation, as white Gen Z Republicans outnumber Democrats by 4 to 1, making it the most Republican leaning demographic amongst whites (made all the worst for Democrats now that millennial women are the only Democrat leaning white demo due to a right shift amongst millennial men over the past year).

When coupled with things like Brexit, Eastern Europe and now the Italy political situation, this should be good for conservatives, and for many it is, but for the old school types it's terrible, because it's the wrong type of conservatism. Globalism is dead, neoconservatism is dead, what we have now is a rising tide of small government, nationalistic, anti-immigration and calling for a restoration of not just order but a call for a return to glory. This new conservatism is in open contempt of cold war conservatism and openly at war with neoconservatism, so much so that people like McCain are called Democrats due to the fact that the animosity between these two factions (as well as the unholy alliance between neocons, corporate leftists and socialists we've seen over the past few years) is that strong. They see each other as the enemy, so much so that the new conservatives made it clear that if Trump didn't win the nomination, they'd burn the GOP down while leaving, and no one was under the mistaken impression it was a bluff. Trump, like Brexit, like Italy, like the rise of the anti-establishment right in Western Europe and nationalists in Eastern Europe, was a response to political abandonment and ostracization of the white working and middle class by the political class, and it worked. It worked too well in fact, because now if Trump is removed, either rightly or wrongly, American democracy is dead. Whether legitimate or not, the perception that his removal would be not an act of justice but an act of treason and conspiracy by the political and business elite of the country would be unbreakable and the legitimacy of the entire system would be shattered. I'm not saying it would lead to civil war with certainty, but the possibility of that is an order of magnitude higher then a proper political transition to whoever else is going to lead after, and a coup isn't out of the question either. Whatever the outcome would be, not a single sane person alive would want it over Trump ending his terms in office, least of all Democrats, as they would loose most in that situation.

Regardless of all that though, the cultural, political and economic shift of the past few years has been staggering. Progressivism went from a seemingly unstoppable force to being on the rapid decline in the wake of liberals and conservatives uniting against them, the economic stagnation of the previous decade is over, the new Cold War started under Obama seems to have an end in sight, the EU is beyond the point of return for reversing its fragmentation, and culture has seemingly left the odd state of having no identity and only wallowing in the past. Trump is this generation's Reagan, he's going to win a second term, he's going to build the wall and unless someone is willing to burn the country down instead of being proven wrong (which, given the actions of Remainers in the UK, isn't out of the question since there's precedent for people to burn their country rather then admit to being wrong) there's not a damn thing progressives can do about it.

Brexit was our Stalingrad, 2016 was the Kursk. Feels good man.

image

Saelune:
...and you oppose a black President but he is the best President ever...

I can barely imagine anyone thinking Obama is the best president ever, outside the realm of minority ethnic achievement. Ultimately, he made no great screw-ups but no major successes either - Obama will probably go down in history as a middle-ranking president. Probably the thing likely to define his presidency most will be the healthcare act, for better or worse depending on long-term outcome. Probably neutral if the Republicans manage to kill it.

Zontar:

Snip

Yeah how's that wall going? What with the utter lack of budget approved for it? Oh yeah, it's gonna be the best wall ever made. And Mexico's gonna pay for it. Except no. No they're not.

http://thehill.com/policy/international/389818-mexicos-president-fires-back-at-trump-we-will-never-pay-for-your-wall

I just find it hilarious because the Democrats were willing to give it to him if he just took care of the Dreamers, but then he threw a tantrum for Trump reasons and now he has no wall. Trump is his own worst enemy in a lot of ways.

Also we almost had a nice little trade agreement going with your country before Trump and Pence went and fucked it up.

Just a reminder. You wanted Trump. He has no respect for your country and you wanted him. If fucking baffles me.

Also just a reminder that there's a blue senator in Alabama. I guess that's what happens then the president backs child fuckers. In fact, the GOP seems to be a real magnet for child fuckers.

http://goodizen.com/list-of-convicted-republican-pedophiles/

https://www.yahoo.com/news/congressional-candidate-virginia-admits-pedophile-011921211.html

And you're accusing the left of being stuck in the past when Trump ran on the slogan of "making America great AGAIN."

And you compare Brexit to a battle that utterly destroyed the city that it was fighting for. That is so stupidly fitting it hurts.

And I'm seeing a lot of statistics claims without anything backing it up. I know that you love to spew misinformation, but sources please. And yeah, Generation Z is really right leaning, that must be why so many of them took part in those anti-gun protests after Parkland.

As for the second term *snerk* didn't anyone tell you not to count your eggs before they hatch?

runic knight:
snip

It's strange how from everything you could argue against in that comparison, you decide to focus more in the naming, and less on the ideology or even the activities. After Charleston rally, it's almost fascinating how bad your argument is.

Zontar:
Trump is this generation's Reagan, he's going to win a second term, he's going to build the wall and unless someone is willing to burn the country down instead of being proven wrong (which, given the actions of Remainers in the UK, isn't out of the question since there's precedent for people to burn their country rather then admit to being wrong) there's not a damn thing progressives can do about it.

The funny thing is, the Remainers aren't overseeing Brexit. It's an ongoing clusterfuck, and if the Remainers aren't carrying it out, who else do you think is?

The Brexiteers, it turns out, lied about the things they'd get the country (taking all of less than 24h of the referendum to disavow some of it), found they don't have the negotiating power against the EU they thought they did, and were dead wrong about what they assumed they could do. Now they're running round like headless chickens blaming everyone and everything else (including, frequently, each other) because it turns out they can't deliver.

Agema:

The funny thing is, the Remainers aren't overseeing Brexit. It's an ongoing clusterfuck, and if the Remainers aren't carrying it out, who else do you think is?

The Brexiteers, it turns out, lied about the things they'd get the country (taking all of less than 24h of the referendum to disavow some of it), found they don't have the negotiating power against the EU they thought they did, and were dead wrong about what they assumed they could do. Now they're running round like headless chickens blaming everyone and everything else (including, frequently, each other) because it turns out they can't deliver.

I can't be the only one to notice how all the Brexit/Trump supporting posters on the site went quiet after they got what they wanted, and only pop up every now and again with another apocalyptic Wagnerian vision of their Triumph only to go back to silence when the Sun rises again in the morning.

Ninjamedic:

Agema:

The funny thing is, the Remainers aren't overseeing Brexit. It's an ongoing clusterfuck, and if the Remainers aren't carrying it out, who else do you think is?

The Brexiteers, it turns out, lied about the things they'd get the country (taking all of less than 24h of the referendum to disavow some of it), found they don't have the negotiating power against the EU they thought they did, and were dead wrong about what they assumed they could do. Now they're running round like headless chickens blaming everyone and everything else (including, frequently, each other) because it turns out they can't deliver.

I can't be the only one to notice how all the Brexit/Trump supporting posters on the site went quiet after they got what they wanted, and only pop up every now and again with another apocalyptic Wagnerian vision of their Triumph only to go back to silence when the Sun rises again in the morning.

Have to say, I've been noticing it as well. I also can't help but notice a massive amount of claims and a barely existent amount of citations.

erttheking:

Have to say, I've been noticing it as well. I also can't help but notice a massive amount of claims and a barely existent amount of citations.

The claims by themselves are one thing, but the protracted silences I think are the most telling. I hate to keep banging on about the Border over here, but my god, at least have a coherent fucking viewpoint to this.

Zontar:
.

You talk a good game about some new breed of conservatism, yet their ideas are even more old fogie and backward thinking than the dusty cons.

Tradcons are not a new thing, and that's all the "new" conservatives are. Even older shit with a better paint job.

Now dont' get me wrong. What you guys pulled off was a master stoke, and I admire it. You waited till just the right moment, let the left hang it'self with multicolored hair rope while it shrieked about killing us white cis het scum, and then you swept it with just the right temprement. You won the draw, cowboy, and killed the left before it's gun even cleared the holster.

So no, I liken it more to Hannibal decimating the Romans with a hammer and anvil rather than Stalingrad.

erttheking:

And you're accusing the left of being stuck in the past when Trump ran on the slogan of "making America great AGAIN."

A movement that wants a return to whites only lunch counters and revocation of marital rape laws has no business telling anyone how stuck in the past they are.

Smithnikov:

Tradcons are not a new thing, and that's all the "new" conservatives are.

You keep Trad music out of this you bastard!

Agema:

Saelune:
...and you oppose a black President but he is the best President ever...

I can barely imagine anyone thinking Obama is the best president ever, outside the realm of minority ethnic achievement. Ultimately, he made no great screw-ups but no major successes either - Obama will probably go down in history as a middle-ranking president. Probably the thing likely to define his presidency most will be the healthcare act, for better or worse depending on long-term outcome. Probably neutral if the Republicans manage to kill it.

Most presidents are terrible. Something a lot of people neglect when ranking or considering Presidents. Oh Obama was a President when America was in conflict with another country? And? Obama is better than atleast 40 Presidents, that is for damn sure.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here