Mens Rights: Do we need a movement

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Lil devils x:
Snip.

Love this site but things are getting odd!
I didn't want you thinking I didn't respond. See above.

Gorfias:

Baffle2:
[quote="Lil devils x" post="528.1055458.24243999"]
There is nothing wrong with the term Toxic masculinity.

Then, why use this term if I, and many others, find it offensive and meant to offend? Why not use terms that are less offensive?
I would argue, because the intention is not to fix problems, but to offend. Mission accomplished. I am hurt.

The term was not invented to offend you. There are many terms that people find offensive that are not in fact offensive. People are often offended by terms due to not understanding what they mean and why they are used.

When you are discussing Toxic Masculinity, and need to include all of the definition, it is much shorter than having to type out the entire definition every single time you are addressing the issue. That is why they create these terms in the first place.

The intention is to solve the problem and have men address that this is toxic to men. It is only offensive if you think that Toxic masculinity is a good thing, in which case, you should be offended as that position is extremely harmful to men and they do not deserve to have that imposed upon them by those who support such things.

Lil devils x:

Feminists have actually had to fight against the MRA's to be able to make it okay for men to talk about their emotions, seek help for abuse, and for men to be able to redefine what it means to be male due to many MRA's seeing that as an attack on Men when it is an attack on Toxic Masculinity. Many MRA's seem to find the very idea of Toxic Masculinity as a being an attack on Men when it is the primary obstacle men have to overcome in society in order to change the view of " men being weak for being like women"

Lol to the no. The best you can say about posts like these is that they make the thread "diverse", as it's very difficult to imagine anyone saying this with a straight face. Just take one damn look at what happened when the formerly avowed Feminist Cassie Jaye tried to screen her movie The Red Pill in various locations. Because it had actual men talking about their feelings in it, rather than leading Femsplainers gloating about their "fragile masculinity" and "male tears". Seems that the "emotions" that are "okay" to talk about are limited to a rather limited spectrum.

OP: Dunno about the wisdom of rival movements engaging in a fallacious zero-sum competition. I'd prefer some kind of a stand that rejects the premise.

Lil devils x:

The term was not invented to offend you. There are many terms that people find offensive that are not in fact offensive. People are often offended by terms due to not understanding what they mean and why they are used.

When you are discussing Toxic Masculinity, and need to include all of the definition, it is much shorter than having to type out the entire definition every single time you are addressing the issue. That is why they create these terms in the first place.

The intention is to solve the problem and have men address that this is toxic to men. It is only offensive if you think that Toxic masculinity is a good thing, in which case, you should be offended as that position is extremely harmful to men and they do not deserve to have that imposed upon them by those who support such things.

I can believe you believe this but that the creators of the term actually did intend to offend. Now that I have pointed out how offensive the term is, I'd think you and those others of good will would try to find a new way to phrase the issue.

My 2 cents.

StatusNil:

Lol to the no. The best you can say about posts like these is that they make the thread "diverse", as it's very difficult to imagine anyone saying this with a straight face. Just take one damn look at what happened when the formerly avowed Feminist Cassie Jaye tried to screen her movie The Red Pill in various locations. Because it had actual men talking about their feelings in it, rather than leading Femsplainers gloating about their "fragile masculinity" and "male tears". Seems that the "emotions" that are "okay" to talk about are limited to a rather limited spectrum.

OP: Dunno about the wisdom of rival movements engaging in a fallacious zero-sum competition. I'd prefer some kind of a stand that rejects the premise.

Some issues are going to be zero sum, no matter what. If we demand men get a 30 day period, like women do, to decide they are not ready for being a parent, that will have real world impacts upon women. They'll fight it.

In these days of fake news, we have to fight to at least see both sides of an issue get aired.

StatusNil:

Lil devils x:

Feminists have actually had to fight against the MRA's to be able to make it okay for men to talk about their emotions, seek help for abuse, and for men to be able to redefine what it means to be male due to many MRA's seeing that as an attack on Men when it is an attack on Toxic Masculinity. Many MRA's seem to find the very idea of Toxic Masculinity as a being an attack on Men when it is the primary obstacle men have to overcome in society in order to change the view of " men being weak for being like women"

Lol to the no. The best you can say about posts like these is that they make the thread "diverse", as it's very difficult to imagine anyone saying this with a straight face. Just take one damn look at what happened when the formerly avowed Feminist Cassie Jaye tried to screen her movie The Red Pill in various locations. Because it had actual men talking about their feelings in it, rather than leading Femsplainers gloating about their "fragile masculinity" and "male tears". Seems that the "emotions" that are "okay" to talk about are limited to a rather limited spectrum.

OP: Dunno about the wisdom of rival movements engaging in a fallacious zero-sum competition. I'd prefer some kind of a stand that rejects the premise.

You could say that with a straight face?
People online say all sorts of dumb shat what would make that any different?

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Toxic%20Masculinity

I am not seeing the feminists marching on sites such as everyday feminism for discussing men's issues.
https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/09/stop-joking-about-men-raped-by-women/
https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/12/facts-male-rape-survivors/
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/08/male-rape-no-laughing-matter/?utm_content=buffer3b71d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

There have always been feminists pushing to help men's issues and the present is no different. Having random people say/ do stupid things does not take away from those that are doing the right things. Progress is still being made and men are still benefiting from the progress being made.

https://mic.com/articles/88277/23-ways-feminism-has-made-the-world-a-better-place-for-men

Gorfias:

Lil devils x:

The term was not invented to offend you. There are many terms that people find offensive that are not in fact offensive. People are often offended by terms due to not understanding what they mean and why they are used.

When you are discussing Toxic Masculinity, and need to include all of the definition, it is much shorter than having to type out the entire definition every single time you are addressing the issue. That is why they create these terms in the first place.

The intention is to solve the problem and have men address that this is toxic to men. It is only offensive if you think that Toxic masculinity is a good thing, in which case, you should be offended as that position is extremely harmful to men and they do not deserve to have that imposed upon them by those who support such things.

I can believe you believe this but that the creators of the term actually did intend to offend. Now that I have pointed out how offensive the term is, I'd think you and those others of good will would try to find a new way to phrase the issue.

My 2 cents.

Who exactly do you think they intended to offend? It is not offensive to Men in general. From everything I have read, that was not their intention when creating the term and definition. We currently do not have a better term as this is what is accepted in open conversation among men. The Rock didn't seem to find it offensive either.

It is pretty mainstream as far as terms go:
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Toxic%20Masculinity

Gorfias:
Some issues are going to be zero sum, no matter what. If we demand men get a 30 day period, like women do, to decide they are not ready for being a parent, that will have real world impacts upon women. They'll fight it.

Please do clarify what it is you are discussing here. 30 day period? Are you talking about menses here?

Dude, you're in an unhappy marriage by the sounds of it. It doesn't mean all women are monsters keen to steal your penis.

Lil devils x:

Gorfias:
Some issues are going to be zero sum, no matter what. If we demand men get a 30 day period, like women do, to decide they are not ready for being a parent, that will have real world impacts upon women. They'll fight it.

Please do clarify what it is you are discussing here. 30 day period? Are you talking about menses here?

I'm assuming he's talking about the legal length of time to decide whether to get an abortion or not.

Like trying to say that men should get a say in if a woman should abort her baby? idk man there's so much cheese and misinformation in this thread I lost the plot ages ago

Lil devils x:

Gorfias:
Some issues are going to be zero sum, no matter what. If we demand men get a 30 day period, like women do, to decide they are not ready for being a parent, that will have real world impacts upon women. They'll fight it.

Please do clarify what it is you are discussing here. 30 day period? Are you talking about menses here?

Nope. Safe haven or Baby Moses law. It isn't everywhere but the principal is that a woman my be unready for parenthood. Doesn't make them a villain. We need the same sort of thing for men.
Example:
https://www.dfps.state.tx.us/Child_Protection/Child_Safety/baby_moses.asp

What are your thoughts on the term Toxic Femininity?

Baffle2:
Dude, you're in an unhappy marriage by the sounds of it. It doesn't mean all women are monsters keen to steal your penis.

I actually feel kind of lucky all said. But that is a problem. Soooooo many males in my life are going MGTOW and I have to ask what we can do to change that as the male/female relations are a major building block in western civilization and important to long term happiness.
If things are unfair, what do we do to make them more fair?

undeadsuitor:

Lil devils x:

Gorfias:
Some issues are going to be zero sum, no matter what. If we demand men get a 30 day period, like women do, to decide they are not ready for being a parent, that will have real world impacts upon women. They'll fight it.

Please do clarify what it is you are discussing here. 30 day period? Are you talking about menses here?

I'm assuming he's talking about the legal length of time to decide whether to get an abortion or not.

Like trying to say that men should get a say in if a woman should abort her baby? idk man there's so much cheese and misinformation in this thread I lost the plot ages ago

Where is that the law? I have known no one to be made to wait 30 days to receive an abortion if they wanted one. If there were lack of services or a wait list sure, but 30 day whaaa?

Gorfias:

Lil devils x:

Gorfias:
Some issues are going to be zero sum, no matter what. If we demand men get a 30 day period, like women do, to decide they are not ready for being a parent, that will have real world impacts upon women. They'll fight it.

Please do clarify what it is you are discussing here. 30 day period? Are you talking about menses here?

Nope. Safe haven or Baby Moses law. It isn't everywhere but the principal is that a woman my be unready for parenthood. Doesn't make them a villain. We need the same sort of thing for men.
Example:
https://www.dfps.state.tx.us/Child_Protection/Child_Safety/baby_moses.asp

What are your thoughts on the term Toxic Femininity?

Baffle2:
Dude, you're in an unhappy marriage by the sounds of it. It doesn't mean all women are monsters keen to steal your penis.

I actually feel kind of lucky all said. But that is a problem. Soooooo many males in my life are going MGTOW and I have to ask what we can do to change that as the male/female relations are a major building block in western civilization and important to long term happiness.
If things are unfair, what do we do to make them more fair?

That is 60 days not 30. I have been trying to figure out where you got that number from.

My thoughts on the term "toxic femininity" as is being currently used, is it is used by uninformed guys immaturely made it up to attempt to create a false equivalency to the term Toxic masculinity because they would rather attack women than address the core issues needed to be addressed to progress Men's rights, or bother to actually find out who and why Toxic masculinity was being addressed. It was not feminists who coined the Term "Toxic Masculinity", it was a man working to help Men.

IF You really want to help the stress being placed on men, Start with Basic income for generation x. Financial issues are the number one reason for increased stress, divorce and suicide. Address support systems in place first and you will relieve much of the stress being placed on the society. If they fail to put supports in place expect all of these things to get much worse and there is not much that will reduce it at that point.

Lil devils x:

That is 60 days not 30. I have been trying to figure out where you got that number from.

I THINK from Bane666au on youtube. But you get the point.

It was not feminists who coined the Term "Toxic Masculinity", it was a man working to help Men.

I had not heard that before. My own thoughts: the man was wrong headed to do this and that it was Feminists that popularized the term as I'd never hear this before.
My advice: find a new way of phrasing the issue. This one is off putting.

EDIT: Yes, we need to fix issues with young people's ability to earn enough money to really begin their lives. Jordan Peterson, of all people, is trying to revolutionize college. There are online courses already. He wants to expand on their availability and affordability. Imagine a 18 year old getting a job as a lumber jack, making good money, but going back to his room at night and taking courses on his laptop that night.

I hope it works out.

Gorfias:

Lil devils x:

That is 60 days not 30. I have been trying to figure out where you got that number from.

I THINK from Bane666au on youtube. But you get the point.

It was not feminists who coined the Term "Toxic Masculinity", it was a man working to help Men.

I had not heard that before. My own thoughts: the man was wrong headed to do this and that it was Feminists that popularized the term as I'd never hear this before.
My advice: find a new way of phrasing the issue. This one is off putting.

Start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoetic_men%27s_movement
Shepherd Bliss coined the term. This was a term made by men for men to address what men were doing to men.

Lil devils x:
This one is off putting.

Start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoetic_men%27s_movement
Shepherd Bliss coined the term.[/quote]

Great link in general, thank you for sharing. Gotta figure out what the heck "Bly urged men to recover a pre-industrial conception of masculinity" even means!

EDIT: So far, my take is that these creators thought of there being many types of masculinity, some good, others benign, others "toxic".

In modern terms, I've only heard of masculinity, in these terms, being toxic.

Maybe there are other feminine links that are more positive. Reviewing.

Gorfias:

Lil devils x:

Gorfias:

I THINK from Bane666au on youtube. But you get the point.

I had not heard that before. My own thoughts: the man was wrong headed to do this and that it was Feminists that popularized the term as I'd never hear this before.
My advice: find a new way of phrasing the issue. This one is off putting.

Start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoetic_men%27s_movement
Shepherd Bliss coined the term.

Great link in general, thank you for sharing. Gotta figure out what the heck "Bly urged men to recover a pre-industrial conception of masculinity" even means!

There was a time when it was encouraged for men to express their emotions openly, eloquently and artistically. He may be referring to the time when it was promoted by society to do so.

Feminists addressing the issue was feminists trying to help further men's issues, not a "war on men".

Gorfias:

Lil devils x:

Start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoetic_men%27s_movement
Shepherd Bliss coined the term.

Great link in general, thank you for sharing. Gotta figure out what the heck "Bly urged men to recover a pre-industrial conception of masculinity" even means!

EDIT: So far, my take is that these creators thought of there being many types of masculinity, some good, others benign, others "toxic".

In modern terms, I've only heard of masculinity, in these terms, being toxic.

Maybe there are other feminine links that are more positive. Reviewing.

This is literally what we've been saying this entire thread

in multiple threads

for years

I'm glad you've finally understood it, but I wish it didn't take A Man repeating something that women have been saying for ages for you to actually listen and read links given to you.

Gorfias:
EDIT: Yes, we need to fix issues with young people's ability to earn enough money to really begin their lives. Jordan Peterson, of all people, is trying to revolutionize college. There are online courses already. He wants to expand on their availability and affordability. Imagine a 18 year old getting a job as a lumber jack, making good money, but going back to his room at night and taking courses on his laptop that night.

I hope it works out.

We need to address middle aged people being able to survive as Generation x was prevented from doing so.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-generation-x-had-the-worst-personal-finance-year-ever-214519220.html
https://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/30/generation-x-hit-hardest-by-recession/
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/one-way-that-the-great-recession-is-still-hurting-generation-x-2017-07-20
\https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/why-do-larger-share-millennials-and-gen-x-have-past-due-medical-debt-older-americans
https://medium.com/@superbaka/generation-x-grew-up-in-a-neglected-childhood-and-abandoned-dirty-infrastructure-during-the-27573117563e
https://theshepherdsstaffcounseling.wordpress.com/2017/07/23/suicide-and-generation-x/

Generation X lost their savings, homes, job prospects being aged out of opportunity and will have no savings to retire on. Gen x was prevented from having medical insurance, buying homes, vacations, job stability and wealth accumulation. If there is not support put into place for the middle aged in America, expect the suicide and poverty rate to get very bad very soon for this group as they have to survive the gap to retirement without any resources to do so.

Smithnikov:

Saelune:
No.

Men who want equality need to fight for equality for blacks and gays and women etc and they will get their own equality out of it too. That is why it is called 'equality'. It means equal.

And Jordan Peterson is a sexist. Do not use him as a defense cause it only hurts your side.

I especially love how he chalks women up as avatars of Chaos, like we live in fucking Warhammer or something...

I heard him talk how jobs are hard and to be successful you need support. Thus the woman should give up a good job to make sure the man can be the most successful. He said it like it was something new.

Vendor-Lazarus:
Yes, and we do have several.
The problem is that advancing Men?s Rights wont work while Toxic Femininity rules this Third Wave Feminism.
Right now, they have the power and hold sway over educational institutions and mainstream media (amongst other things).
They are also helped by the fact that women?s innate go to aggression and conflict resolution skills lies in word and emotion manipulation.
Some old remnants from the 50-100 year old patriarchal traditions are also resistant to change and isn't helped by being seen as the only opposition to the malign Toxic Femininity.

Toxic Femininity?s rise to power have also brought with it a rise in further and deeper divides wherein everything becomes polarized.
So reconciliation becomes harder and harder.

I've been trying to define Toxic Femininity. What's your thoughts? Also, I'd say second wave was far more toxic, but that might come down to your definition.

trunkage:

Smithnikov:

Saelune:
No.

Men who want equality need to fight for equality for blacks and gays and women etc and they will get their own equality out of it too. That is why it is called 'equality'. It means equal.

And Jordan Peterson is a sexist. Do not use him as a defense cause it only hurts your side.

I especially love how he chalks women up as avatars of Chaos, like we live in fucking Warhammer or something...

I heard him talk how jobs are hard and to be successful you need support. Thus the woman should give up a good job to make sure the man can be the most successful. He said it like it was something new.

Vendor-Lazarus:
Yes, and we do have several.
The problem is that advancing Men?s Rights wont work while Toxic Femininity rules this Third Wave Feminism.
Right now, they have the power and hold sway over educational institutions and mainstream media (amongst other things).
They are also helped by the fact that women?s innate go to aggression and conflict resolution skills lies in word and emotion manipulation.
Some old remnants from the 50-100 year old patriarchal traditions are also resistant to change and isn't helped by being seen as the only opposition to the malign Toxic Femininity.

Toxic Femininity?s rise to power have also brought with it a rise in further and deeper divides wherein everything becomes polarized.
So reconciliation becomes harder and harder.

I've been trying to define Toxic Femininity. What's your thoughts? Also, I'd say second wave was far more toxic, but that might come down to your definition.

If it were to be the equivalent it would be women trying to bully other women into what they deem appropriate female behavior. Although in reality the behavior that they would be trying to bully women into was actually forced on women from men, there are just women that attempt to enforce that upon other women as well. Though since men coined the term "Toxic masculinity" to address men's issues harming men, it would be up to women to coin and define their own term as well.

trunkage:

Smithnikov:

Saelune:
No.

Men who want equality need to fight for equality for blacks and gays and women etc and they will get their own equality out of it too. That is why it is called 'equality'. It means equal.

And Jordan Peterson is a sexist. Do not use him as a defense cause it only hurts your side.

I especially love how he chalks women up as avatars of Chaos, like we live in fucking Warhammer or something...

I heard him talk how jobs are hard and to be successful you need support. Thus the woman should give up a good job to make sure the man can be the most successful. He said it like it was something new.

Yep. And that's all because that's how his wife acts. One of Peterson's old friends basically described their relationship as "If Peterson was the Captain at the wheel, his wife was the rudders and sail."

That's the whole idea behind his enforced monogamy thing. Men need women to be their safety net and therapist. Because it's a woman's job to fix broken men. (Which ties back into the whole Toxic Masculinity thing, because men are less likely to have groups of friends as support structures like women, so they lean heavily on their wives and female relatives for all their emotional support.)

Gorfias:

EDIT: So far, my take is that these creators thought of there being many types of masculinity, some good, others benign, others "toxic".

In modern terms, I've only heard of masculinity, in these terms, being toxic.

Maybe there are other feminine links that are more positive. Reviewing.

Take a very basic look at the structure of the phrase. "Toxic masculinity". "Toxic" is an adjective which here acts as a qualifier, in the same way it would in the term "toxic gas" or "toxic substance". In no way do these phrases suggest that all gases or all substances are toxic; in fact, if somebody suggested that was the case, it would seem to indicate that they have a fundamental misunderstanding of how English sentence structure works.

So, quite obviously, it refers to a form of masculine behaviour. That much is clear from basic linguistic break-down.

Gorfias:

Rather than label people and call them intellectual untouchables, I would encourage you engage their arguments instead.

Tell that to the sexists.

Lil devils x:

Feminists addressing the issue was feminists trying to help further men's issues, not a "war on men".

Depends, see below;

undeadsuitor:

This is literally what we've been saying this entire thread

And more...

Silvanus:

Take a very basic look at the structure of the phrase. "Toxic masculinity". "Toxic" is an adjective which here acts as a qualifier, in the same way it would in the term "toxic gas" or "toxic substance". In no way do these phrases suggest that all gases or all substances are toxic; in fact, if somebody suggested that was the case, it would seem to indicate that they have a fundamental misunderstanding of how English sentence structure works.

So, quite obviously, it refers to a form of masculine behaviour. That much is clear from basic linguistic break-down.

I have literally, never, ever read a feminist piece describing positive aspects of masculinity. Do they even know that there are supposed to be such juxtaposed to this original phrasing of the term linked by Lil D?

So, I'll review further. At a minimum, most Feminist sources I've experienced simply want to label male behaviors as toxic. I certainly would not expose a 5 year old boy to the term.

A lot of feminist pieces try to break to concept of gendered traits entirely. After all, things like being nurturing or compassionate are good in men as well as women, right?

I mean, I'm 33 years old and I can't think of a non-toxic masculine trait that wouldn't also be good for women, nor can I think of a non-toxic feminine trait that wouldn't also be good for men.

Can you?

altnameJag:
A lot of feminist pieces try to break to concept of gendered traits entirely. After all, things like being nurturing or compassionate are good in men as well as women, right?

I mean, I'm 33 years old and I can't think of a non-toxic masculine trait that wouldn't also be good for women, nor can I think of a non-toxic feminine trait that wouldn't also be good for men.

Can you?

That certainly is a conclusion that I can see the path to.

Lil devils x:

If it were to be the equivalent it would be women trying to bully other women into what they deem appropriate female behavior. Although in reality the behavior that they would be trying to bully women into was actually forced on women from men, there are just women that attempt to enforce that upon other women as well. Though since men coined the term "Toxic masculinity" to address men's issues harming men, it would be up to women to coin and define their own term as well.

Wouldn't it be women trying to force men to be men? (Or maybe as well) Eg. There are more men who have given up looking for work in the US. Toxic Feminity would be forcing them back into work as that was traditionally their role.

Gorfias:

Lil devils x:

Feminists addressing the issue was feminists trying to help further men's issues, not a "war on men".

Depends, see below;

undeadsuitor:

This is literally what we've been saying this entire thread

And more...

Silvanus:

Take a very basic look at the structure of the phrase. "Toxic masculinity". "Toxic" is an adjective which here acts as a qualifier, in the same way it would in the term "toxic gas" or "toxic substance". In no way do these phrases suggest that all gases or all substances are toxic; in fact, if somebody suggested that was the case, it would seem to indicate that they have a fundamental misunderstanding of how English sentence structure works.

So, quite obviously, it refers to a form of masculine behaviour. That much is clear from basic linguistic break-down.

I have literally, never, ever read a feminist piece describing positive aspects of masculinity. Do they even know that there are supposed to be such juxtaposed to this original phrasing of the term linked by Lil D?

So, I'll review further. At a minimum, most Feminist sources I've experienced simply want to label male behaviors as toxic. I certainly would not expose a 5 year old boy to the term.

Here I'd say, what would spark more controversy? A piece covering the positive aspects of masculinity or a piece on the negative. Becuase, I could guess what would get more coverage. It usually not positivity.

That being said, it probably should be a focal point of feminists to declare it more often. Sometimes, when the message isn't heard, you need to work harder.

Last year, I listened to a show called Q & A with an MRA guy and Clementine Ford (of all people). She kept having to state that the intention was to get the same rights for women as men. It's not pointing positives but it did show me that they could be reasonable. (I've always found Ford to be the poster child for a bad Feminsist.)

trunkage:

Lil devils x:

If it were to be the equivalent it would be women trying to bully other women into what they deem appropriate female behavior. Although in reality the behavior that they would be trying to bully women into was actually forced on women from men, there are just women that attempt to enforce that upon other women as well. Though since men coined the term "Toxic masculinity" to address men's issues harming men, it would be up to women to coin and define their own term as well.

Wouldn't it be women trying to force men to be men? (Or maybe as well) Eg. There are more men who have given up looking for work in the US. Toxic Feminity would be forcing them back into work as that was traditionally their role.

Doing so by women forcing women into the kitchens to be barefoot and Pregnant?

Trying to talk about mens rights usually results in being told that it's men, the patriarchy and toxic masculinity that hurts men.

In other words, more man blaming.

Mothro:
Trying to talk about mens rights usually results in being told that it's men, the patriarchy and toxic masculinity that hurts men.

In other words, more man blaming.

Why do you think that is? People, both men and women are saying that for good reason. Why else did a man coin and define the term "Toxic masculinity" to be able to address the problems facing men in an attempt to solve them in the first place? The problems will not be resolved until Toxic masculinity is addressed.

Mothro:
Trying to talk about mens rights usually results in being told that it's men, the patriarchy and toxic masculinity that hurts men.

In other words, more man blaming.

As opposed to saying it's women's fault?

undeadsuitor:

Mothro:
Trying to talk about mens rights usually results in being told that it's men, the patriarchy and toxic masculinity that hurts men.

In other words, more man blaming.

As opposed to saying it's women's fault?

Are you saying women are perfect?

Mothro:

undeadsuitor:

Mothro:
Trying to talk about mens rights usually results in being told that it's men, the patriarchy and toxic masculinity that hurts men.

In other words, more man blaming.

As opposed to saying it's women's fault?

Are you saying women are perfect?

Are you saying men are?

Lil devils x:

Mothro:
Trying to talk about mens rights usually results in being told that it's men, the patriarchy and toxic masculinity that hurts men.

In other words, more man blaming.

Why do you think that is? People, both men and women are saying that for good reason. Why else did a man coin and define the term "Toxic masculinity" to be able to address the problems facing men in an attempt to solve them in the first place? The problems will not be resolved until Toxic masculinity is addressed.

The problems won't be resolved listening to feminists telling men how fucked up they are. Sorry. The best thing men can do for themselves is to stop letting others define them.

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