Trump asserts he could pardon himself from wrong doing he 'did not even do'

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Adam Jensen:
This is where you're wrong. The only thing that separates Trump from life in prison is the presidency. He would only resign or refuse to run for reelection if he was 100% convinced that he won't face any legal consequences once he's out of office. But for now he absolutely can't afford to resign or not run for reelection. That's why in his insane mind he thinks about lifetime presidency.

I actually think the opposite. The Republicans have a vested interest in shuffling Trump under the carpet and hoping everybody forgets about him. The easiest way to do that is to do what Ford did for Nixon and pardon him. You're trading the prospect of a long and excruciating criminal investigation into a former president for the intense but short-lived firestorm that gets triggered by a presidential pardon. After Nixon, the Republicans took their punches with Ford, knuckled through one term of Jimmy Carter, and then made a comeback with fucking Reagan. I'd say it worked out alright for them in the end.

Adam Jensen:

Nope. The DOJ told Nixon that he couldn't pardon himself. That's why he resigned three days later.

Oh, it is a grey area alright. It's never been decided on by the Supreme Court. The DOJ gave Nixon their interpretation of the law - which was that a self-pardon was impossible - but no-one knows for sure what the law is until the Supreme Court hears it and makes a ruling. Which will only happen if Trump tries to pardon himself.

Adam Jensen:
And in order to accept a pardon you have to admit guilt.

It is a sad truth of modern politics that nobody remembers this. When Ford pardoned Nixon, he used Burdick v. United States to justify the act, arguing that by accepting the pardon, Nixon implicitly admitted that he was guilty of a crime - which Ford considered a moral punishment.

Speculation abounds as to whether that was Ford's true motivation, given he was the vice-president of the dirtiest administration since Harding, but it's still considered good law in the US that accepting a pardon means accepting that you have committed a crime to be pardoned for. But no-one treats it like that. In contemporary discussions, a pardon is just considered a get-out-of-jail-free card. Which it isn't! It can't be that; the Supreme Court recognised that all the way back in 1915, that the granting of a pardon requires there to be a crime to be pardoned, so guys like Joe Arpaio and Dinesh D'Souza are - logically - admitting that they were crooks. But you'll never hear them say it.

What can I say except for "Con law professors are going to have very interesting hypotheticals for their 1Ls for years to come"

CaitSeith:
Would it be? Why? Being openly racist, misogenistic and xenophobic was considered that too. And yet...

Trump would just add it to his bragging list and roll with it while his supporters call the self-pardon a necessity against the bias of the courts.

I think the difference is that a lot of republicans can stomach racism, misogyny and xenophobia as part of what their voter base thinks. It is a lot harder to defend the fact that the President that nominally represents your party is going into full blown Tyrant-mode. US politicians can overlook a lot of things, but the President flagrantly abusing his power or breaking the law is not one of them.

bastardofmelbourne:

It is a sad truth of modern politics that nobody remembers this. When Ford pardoned Nixon, he used Burdick v. United States to justify the act, arguing that by accepting the pardon, Nixon implicitly admitted that he was guilty of a crime - which Ford considered a moral punishment.

Who cares? I don't care if Trump ever thinks he is guilty or admits he is guilty, I just want him punished and removed. He can cry innocent all the way to the guillotine for all I care, I just want him to stop ruining everything.

Gethsemani:

CaitSeith:
Would it be? Why? Being openly racist, misogenistic and xenophobic was considered that too. And yet...

Trump would just add it to his bragging list and roll with it while his supporters call the self-pardon a necessity against the bias of the courts.

I think the difference is that a lot of republicans can stomach racism, misogyny and xenophobia as part of what their voter base thinks. It is a lot harder to defend the fact that the President that nominally represents your party is going into full blown Tyrant-mode. US politicians can overlook a lot of things, but the President flagrantly abusing his power or breaking the law is not one of them.

A major part of the Republican platform is bigotry. They do not 'stomach it' they eat it up. If it wasn't, then they would not be the side that votes no on Civil Rights acts and votes no on gay rights and votes yes on Trump and Bush. George Bush doesn't care about black people. Donald Trump hates Mexicans, and that is why republicans voted for them.

They can overlook abuse of power. They have every day of Trump's presidency. The only way any of them speak out against Trump is when they get cancer and are going to die soon anyway, but they prefer to do it in their book you can buy. Sure they grumble when they have to, but then the grumbles subside and everyone is still beside Trump. It is their version of 'thoughts and prayers but no actual gun reform' when kids get murdered by their precious guns.

Gethsemani:

CaitSeith:
Would it be? Why? Being openly racist, misogenistic and xenophobic was considered that too. And yet...

Trump would just add it to his bragging list and roll with it while his supporters call the self-pardon a necessity against the bias of the courts.

I think the difference is that a lot of republicans can stomach racism, misogyny and xenophobia as part of what their voter base thinks. It is a lot harder to defend the fact that the President that nominally represents your party is going into full blown Tyrant-mode. US politicians can overlook a lot of things, but the President flagrantly abusing his power or breaking the law is not one of them.

The Republicans have overlooked so many things now where i thought they wouldn't that i don't trust them to have any such principles left.

The US system simply doesn't work anymore. Actual politics doesn't matter, it is just "your own party" and "the enemy". No one cares for the famous checks and balances aside from being able to sabotage the other side or not, it is no longer used against your own side, no matter how much you disagree, it is always used against the other side, even if you would want to do the very same thing.

If this whole mess breaks down eventually i won't be surprised.

Adam Jensen:
Nope. The DOJ told Nixon that he couldn't pardon himself. That's why he resigned three days later.

That's legal advice from lawyers, which may or may not be true. Lawyers may say lots of things about unknowns that they believe is legal, but we only know for sure when a judge hands down a ruling.

* * *

In a way, I think this is all meaningless anyway. I do not believe Trump is going to indicted, as he's got a small battalion of fall-guys to take the hits instead. We all know how this works: throw the smaller guys to the wolves, they say the right things to protect the guys higher up, and in return they're looked after in the future (pardons, favours, etc.)

It's just one of Trump's normal brain farts, spouting out nonsense on Twitter. It is interesting mostly because it is another indication of Trump's autocratic mindset - he thinks he's some sort of emperor who should be above the law.

bastardofmelbourne:

Oh, it is a grey area alright. It's never been decided on by the Supreme Court. The DOJ gave Nixon their interpretation of the law - which was that a self-pardon was impossible - but no-one knows for sure what the law is until the Supreme Court hears it and makes a ruling. Which will only happen if Trump tries to pardon himself.

It would be the easiest decision ever for the Supreme Court. But, as I said before, Trump can't pardon himself without admitting guilt. And that leaves him open to not only impeachment, but also state charges and no reelection for him. He might as well put a bullet in his own head at that point. He's cornered. The only way out for him is suicide or a miracle. And that miracle could only come in form of some kind of deal that would allow him to resign without facing any legal consequences. I don't see that happening, especially since Mueller is like a pit bull, he doesn't let go until he gets EVERYONE involved.

On top of that you have thousands of IC agents who actively despise Trump because they know what he is and he's been attacking and undermining them. Not to mention leaking sensitive intel to a hostile government. Even if by some miracle Trump manages to slip away from justice, someone from the IC will inevitably put a bullet in him. Possibly even his family.

bastardofmelbourne:

It is a sad truth of modern politics that nobody remembers this.

Oh, don't worry. People who need to remember it, remember it.

Agema:
as he's got a small battalion of fall-guys to take the hits instead. We all know how this works: throw the smaller guys to the wolves, they say the right things to protect the guys higher up, and in return they're looked after in the future (pardons, favours, etc.)

Good luck with that when there's SIGINT evidence on Trump directly, courtesy of FVEY.

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