Trump represents Russia interests at G7 Threatens Allies

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Lil devils x:
Believe me, I already know all too well that the government, not just the media ignored Puerto Rico, I actually went there to help and encountered more barriers and corruption than I knew what to do with. I posted quite a bit on that already here.

If I didn't say it before I'd like to take a moment to state my respect for your actions. It's one thing for someone like me to prattle on a forum, you actually went out there to do something about it.

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

I don't think he or any rational person is saying we should turn a blind eye to the Mueller Investigation. But how many smoking guns that have been reported about a possible collusion with Russia, and only to lead to nowhere? The Mueller investigation is still going, they have made many indictments. If Mueller finds something incriminating against Trump, trust me we'll know.

But I'm gonna have to agree with Ninjamedic, while the news media was screaming RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! Roseanne, and Stormy Daniels, how long were they talking about the crisis in Puerto Rico? Barely an hour!

https://www.vox.com/2018/6/1/17417180/puerto-rico-media-ignored-chart
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2018/05/30/study-finds-5000-people-may-have-died-hurricane-maria-puerto-rico-cable-news-focused-roseanne/220335

Believe me, I already know all too well that the government, not just the media ignored Puerto Rico, I actually went there to help and encountered more barriers and corruption than I knew what to do with. I posted quite a bit on that already here.

The media is ignoring it because many Americans do not view Puerto Rico as part of the US and they are not concerned with it. American apathy is the issue there and yes, it is disgusting. I have probably discussed this more than most here however.
I am not aware of any smoking guns that went nowhere as of yet.

The Trump tower meeting between Trump Jr and some Russian lawyer who met because the Russian lawyer offered to give dirt on Hilary Clinton, many people thought that was the piece of evidence that proved Collusion, which didn't turn out to be.

The American news media is freaking embarrassing, that's what they are.

I think you stopped paying attention too early. One of the guys in the meeting met with Trump sr in 2013. The Russian lawyer turned out to be a Russian agent. One of the Russians in attendance stated a file with information on Clinton was given. Everyone was lying about it over and over again and it started to unravel on them. You are jumping the gun too soon. Give it time, keep in mind it took far longer to even investigate Watergate. These things happen very slowly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/27/us/natalya-veselnitskaya-trump-tower-russian-prosecutor-general.html
https://medium.com/@ScottMStedman/in-2013-donald-trump-met-one-of-the-russian-attendees-to-the-2016-trump-tower-meeting-b8b90d2a3f4d

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:
Believe me, I already know all too well that the government, not just the media ignored Puerto Rico, I actually went there to help and encountered more barriers and corruption than I knew what to do with. I posted quite a bit on that already here.

The media is ignoring it because many Americans do not view Puerto Rico as part of the US and they are not concerned with it. American apathy is the issue there and yes, it is disgusting. I have probably discussed this more than most here however.
I am not aware of any smoking guns that went nowhere as of yet.

The Trump tower meeting between Trump Jr and some Russian lawyer who met because the Russian lawyer offered to give dirt on Hilary Clinton, many people thought that was the piece of evidence that proved Collusion, which didn't turn out to be.

The American news media is freaking embarrassing, that's what they are.

I think you stopped paying attention too early. One of the guys in the meeting met with Trump sr in 2013. The Russian lawyer turned out to be a Russian agent. One of the Russians in attendance stated a file with information on Clinton was given. Everyone was lying about it over and over again and it started to unravel on them. You are jumping the gun too soon. Give it time, keep in mind it took far longer to even investigate Watergate. These things happen very slowly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/27/us/natalya-veselnitskaya-trump-tower-russian-prosecutor-general.html
https://medium.com/@ScottMStedman/in-2013-donald-trump-met-one-of-the-russian-attendees-to-the-2016-trump-tower-meeting-b8b90d2a3f4d

OK so in the mean time, the media should stop barking about Russia until Mueller finds something incrimidating against Trump, and focus on actual issues like income inequality, health care, etc.

But hey who am I kidding?

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

The Trump tower meeting between Trump Jr and some Russian lawyer who met because the Russian lawyer offered to give dirt on Hilary Clinton, many people thought that was the piece of evidence that proved Collusion, which didn't turn out to be.

The American news media is freaking embarrassing, that's what they are.

I think you stopped paying attention too early. One of the guys in the meeting met with Trump sr in 2013. The Russian lawyer turned out to be a Russian agent. One of the Russians in attendance stated a file with information on Clinton was given. Everyone was lying about it over and over again and it started to unravel on them. You are jumping the gun too soon. Give it time, keep in mind it took far longer to even investigate Watergate. These things happen very slowly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/27/us/natalya-veselnitskaya-trump-tower-russian-prosecutor-general.html
https://medium.com/@ScottMStedman/in-2013-donald-trump-met-one-of-the-russian-attendees-to-the-2016-trump-tower-meeting-b8b90d2a3f4d

OK so in the mean time, the media should stop barking about Russia until Mueller finds something incrimidating against Trump, and focus on actual issues like income inequality, health care, etc.

But hey who am I kidding?

US media is corporate sponsored so they do not want to focus on wealth inequality, Universal Healthcare, and the disturbing extreme rise in homelessness as that goes against their sponsors interests. The only media covering that stuff is usually PBS, that the GOP cut funding for and Trump is trying to get shut down.

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:
I think you stopped paying attention too early. One of the guys in the meeting met with Trump sr in 2013. The Russian lawyer turned out to be a Russian agent. One of the Russians in attendance stated a file with information on Clinton was given. Everyone was lying about it over and over again and it started to unravel on them. You are jumping the gun too soon. Give it time, keep in mind it took far longer to even investigate Watergate. These things happen very slowly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/27/us/natalya-veselnitskaya-trump-tower-russian-prosecutor-general.html
https://medium.com/@ScottMStedman/in-2013-donald-trump-met-one-of-the-russian-attendees-to-the-2016-trump-tower-meeting-b8b90d2a3f4d

OK so in the mean time, the media should stop barking about Russia until Mueller finds something incrimidating against Trump, and focus on actual issues like income inequality, health care, etc.

But hey who am I kidding?

US media is corporate sponsored so they do not want to focus on wealth inequality, Universal Healthcare, and the disturbing extreme rise in homelessness as that goes against their sponsors interests. The only media covering that stuff is usually PBS, that the GOP cut funding for and Trump is trying to get shut down.

Pretty much this. Just bringing up wealth inequality is considered taboo in US politics. It gets the news media and certain politicians screaming about how people want class warfare. I remember when Obama said that the wealth inequality needed to be addressed and people lost their damn minds. It's pretty damn twisted. Hell there are some people both in politics and on networks that insist that the wealth gap is in fact a good thing.

WolvDragon:

Avnger:

WolvDragon:
Russia! Russia! Russia!
Is this just another thread aimed at fanning the flames of the Russian collusion conspiracy theory?

Yeah! Just like all of those Russia-related indictments against a number of Trump campaign and administration officials and Trump's personal relations are fake! It's not like they're a part of federal public record or anything!

WolvDragon:

Let's not forget that he just signed Russian sanctions

Which he was and still is strongly against and has undermined and defanged them in every way in his power to do so.

WolvDragon:
he bombed Russia's closest ally Syria twice

With a significant amount of prior warning and resulting damage that was as if it never occurred within 24 hours.

WolvDragon:
and he denied a Russian oil company access to one of our offshore drilling sites.

Fair enough. I'd argue with you over why he denied it, but he did, in fact, deny it.

WolvDragon:
If he's really working for Russian interests because he's some manchurian candidate, then he's doing a piss poor job at it. Then again, he's doing a piss poor job as president.

I mean Trump trying to do something and failing is pretty par for the course. He has also been constrained by the natural bars that are in place around a President's authority.

Besides Hilary had the help of the Ukranian government. Why is no one investigating her for Ukranian collusion? https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446

Ukraine has never worked against US interests and is a friend and ally of the US. US was helping it's ally against Russian aggression:
https://www.politico.com/story/2014/04/american-troops-eastern-europe-ukraine-russia-105910

Trump's campaign manager, however, was working for Russia against the Ukraine and US interests endangering US forces in Ukraine as well.
https://fusion.tv/story/338016/trump-manafort-marines-nato-protests/

Honestly, It really should be disturbing to anyone that Trump chose the man who helped a man give part of his own country to Russia to lead his campaign and be exposed to matters of National Security. Manafort's history with bad guys is quite disturbing. How can anyone see that as normal?

US works with Allies for intelligence and it is not uncommon for the US to share intelligence with Britain, Israel, France, Germany, Ukraine and other Allies for information. It is not normal however, for US to share information with Russia, Iran, North Korea and other nations that wish to cause harm to the US. Those two things are not really comparable.

In addition, Clinton is not just a citizen, she is actually a government official protected for life by the Secret Service. As a former first lady, senator and secretary of State, she is approved to handle classified information, and calling on people to hack her is actually calling on people to hack a protected government official.

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

Avnger:

Yeah! Just like all of those Russia-related indictments against a number of Trump campaign and administration officials and Trump's personal relations are fake! It's not like they're a part of federal public record or anything!

Which he was and still is strongly against and has undermined and defanged them in every way in his power to do so.

With a significant amount of prior warning and resulting damage that was as if it never occurred within 24 hours.

Fair enough. I'd argue with you over why he denied it, but he did, in fact, deny it.

I mean Trump trying to do something and failing is pretty par for the course. He has also been constrained by the natural bars that are in place around a President's authority.

Besides Hilary had the help of the Ukranian government. Why is no one investigating her for Ukranian collusion? https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446

Ukraine has never worked against US interests and is a friend and ally of the US. US was helping it's ally against Russian aggression:
https://www.politico.com/story/2014/04/american-troops-eastern-europe-ukraine-russia-105910

Trump's campaign manager, however, was working for Russia against the Ukraine and US interests endangering US forces in Ukraine as well.
https://fusion.tv/story/338016/trump-manafort-marines-nato-protests/

Honestly, It really should be disturbing to anyone that Trump chose the man who helped a man give part of his own country to Russia to lead his campaign and be exposed to matters of National Security. Manafort's history with bad guys is quite disturbing. How can anyone see that as normal?

US works with Allies for intelligence and it is not uncommon for the US to share intelligence with Britain, Israel, France, Germany, Ukraine and other Allies for information. It is not normal however, for US to share information with Russia, Iran, North Korea and other nations that wish to cause harm to the US. Those two things are not really comparable.

In addition, Clinton is not just a citizen, she is actually a government official protected for life by the Secret Service. As a former first lady, senator and secretary of State, she is approved to handle classified information, and calling on people to hack her is actually calling on people to hack a protected government official.

Even if Ukraine is our friend and ally, I still don't want a foreign government helping any presidential candidates for whatever reason they have. If the system was fair, Hilary should be under investigation for this as well. But because again Russia is our geopolitical foe and not Ukraine we have to investigate Russia only.

Oh and did you know that Nazis infested Ukraine's government for a time and the U.S. never said anything about it cuz Russia?
http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/03/18/yes-there-are-bad-guys-in-the-ukrainian-government/

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

Besides Hilary had the help of the Ukranian government. Why is no one investigating her for Ukranian collusion? https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ukraine-sabotage-trump-backfire-233446

Ukraine has never worked against US interests and is a friend and ally of the US. US was helping it's ally against Russian aggression:
https://www.politico.com/story/2014/04/american-troops-eastern-europe-ukraine-russia-105910

Trump's campaign manager, however, was working for Russia against the Ukraine and US interests endangering US forces in Ukraine as well.
https://fusion.tv/story/338016/trump-manafort-marines-nato-protests/

Honestly, It really should be disturbing to anyone that Trump chose the man who helped a man give part of his own country to Russia to lead his campaign and be exposed to matters of National Security. Manafort's history with bad guys is quite disturbing. How can anyone see that as normal?

US works with Allies for intelligence and it is not uncommon for the US to share intelligence with Britain, Israel, France, Germany, Ukraine and other Allies for information. It is not normal however, for US to share information with Russia, Iran, North Korea and other nations that wish to cause harm to the US. Those two things are not really comparable.

In addition, Clinton is not just a citizen, she is actually a government official protected for life by the Secret Service. As a former first lady, senator and secretary of State, she is approved to handle classified information, and calling on people to hack her is actually calling on people to hack a protected government official.

Even if Ukraine is our friend and ally, I still don't want a foreign government helping any presidential candidates for whatever reason they have. If the system was fair, Hilary should be under investigation for this as well. But because again Russia is our geopolitical foe and not Ukraine we have to investigate Russia only.

Oh and did you know that Nazis infested Ukraine's government for a time and the U.S. never said anything about it cuz Russia?
http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/03/18/yes-there-are-bad-guys-in-the-ukrainian-government/

Though you are correct that both should be reviewed, the Ukraine is not actively causing harm to the US, and Russia is. They are not really comparable when you compare the situations when considering all available data. Manafort was working directly against the US and is being charged with Conspiracy against the US, No one from Clinton's campaign actually had contact with Ukrainian officials.

There's no evidence that anyone from Clinton's campaign itself had contact with Ukrainian officials; Chalupa acted on her own initiative. There's also no indication that Democratic officials received any information of value from those contacts. While campaign research can be considered a thing of value, particularly if it is expensive to obtain, like large sets of voter or public opinion data, or if the person providing the information is normally paid for it in the course of their work, there is generally a wide latitude given when it comes to advice voluntarily given to campaigns. This is why, for example, the extensive brain trusts candidates assemble to advise them on policy aren't required to register their work as in-kind contributions.

https://qz.com/1026780/did-hillary-clinton-collude-with-ukraine-in-the-2016-presidential-election/

Someone outside a campaign doing something on their own =\= Campaign chair, National Security Advisor, son, son in law, daughter and more members of a campaign actively working with Russians repeatedly on numerous occasions and lying about it.

Ninjamedic:

Nah, that's just business as usual, once The Aberration has been removed, normal service will resume.

Is it too much to ask that the next person they kidnap at least be a person of interest as opposed to some misidentified rando wandering on the street, spending months torturing and sodomizing them despite knowing they kidnapped the wrong person?

Quietly hoping both not too many people and governments might publicly query their disappearance, and hoping the innocent party will just die in said black site prison so that the incident never conmes to light?

I suppose American and Egyptian sadists need jobs, too.

Lil devils x:
Trump calls for Russia to be reinstated to G-7, threatens allies on trade

QUEBEC CITY: President Trump on Friday said Russia should be readmitted to the Group of Seven leading economies, breaking with other world leaders who have insisted that Moscow remain ostracized after its 2014 annexation of Crimea.
"Now, I love our country. I have been Russia's worst nightmare . . . . But with that being said, Russia should be in this meeting," Trump said Friday as he left the White House. "Whether you like it or not, and it may not be politically correct, but we have a world to run . . . . They should let Russia come back in.'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/trump-calls-for-russia-to-be-reinstated-to-g7-threatens-allies-on-trade/2018/06/08/6a13d876-6b15-11e8-bea7-c8eb28bc52b1_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.49ee11ccc1cb
So Russia interferes with US elections, launches cyber attacks on department of defense, the power grid, US officials, Hospitals, and carries out assassinations on our Allies soil and Trump wants to turn over US cyber security to Russia and push their interests at G7 while attacking US allies. Go figure.

I told you that he works for Putin. I even told you what they have on him but nobody believes me.

Saelune:
At this point, the Occam's Razor IS Trump colluding with Russia.

Conspiring, actually. Since conspiracy is the legal term, unlike collusion.

Lil devils x:
What here is a conspiracy theory? No conspiracy theory, these are just the events that already happened. Don't you remember what happened last time he met with Russia? He isn't intelligent enough to make it secret, he did this openly.

Your entire OP is set up to heavily imply collusion. As opposed to general imcompetence. Collusion has not been proven, hence why Trump is still in power, hence at the moment it remains a conspiracy theory. Fed by a media individually desperate to be the outlet that got "that big scoop", snatching at every vague link to try and prove something.

There are legitimate concerns. There is a point to conducting this investigation into the links. But it is, at this point, pure speculation to imply that Trump dances to Putin's tune.

Well, this is disheartening. The months tick by, the details drip out bit by bit, and yet the people who believe Trump was conspiring with Russia and the people who believe it's all a conspiracy theory are still the exact same people.

I should give my take, which I've done about a dozen times before: something 100% happened between the Trump campaign and the Russia government in 2016. What that something was is still unclear, but whatever it was, it wasn't innocent and it almost certainly wasn't legal.

There's stuff we know for sure. We know for sure that Russia was behind all the cyberwarfare and email hacks and Wikileaks in the leadup to the 2016 election. We don't know for sure what impact it had, but we know that it had some impact. We know for sure that Trump's campaign manager was both impressively corrupt and massively in debt to Russian oligarchs close to Putin. We also know for sure that a Russian government lawyer met with high-level members of the Trump campaign in Trump Tower in June 2016; we don't know fur sure what they talked about, but we know for sure that DJT Junior was very open to the idea of receiving Clinton's stolen emails from the Russian government. We also know for sure that despite knowing all of this, Donald Trump never went to the authorities about the offer and publicly expressed a belief that Russia was not behind the email hacks - something that he knew for a fact was not true. We know for sure that Trump tried to pressure the then-director of the FBI to drop its investigation into his campaign and administration, and then fired the director when he refused. We know for sure that he did this in order to stymie the Russia investigation, because he said so on camera a few days later in an interview with Lester Holt.

We also know a whole bunch of other shady stuff that we're not sure about but which is still hella shady. We know that Michael Flynn, Trump's first national security adviser, was talking about lifting sanctions on Russia soon after the inauguration. We know that Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law, was trying to set up a confidential communications channel with the Russian government - one that the US intelligence services didn't know about and weren't monitoring. We know that Flynn, Kushner and Jeff Sessions all left out a hell of a lot of details about potential conflicts of interests relating to Russian entities on their government security disclosure forms. We know that Trump has delayed imposing mandatory sanctions on Russia that were passed by Congress over a year ago. We know that Donald Trump had extensive business interests in Russia from the mid-2000s onwards and a lot of income coming from Russian real estate deals, even while he denied having any money invested in Russia or any business interest in Russia whatsoever. We know that Trump came into a sudden influx of liquid cash - about half a billion dollars worth - around about 2008, which can't be adequately accounted for. We know that Trump has taken every opportunity he can to publicly express confidence in and admiration of Russia's president, often while simultaneously expressing disdain for traditional US allies.

Was any of this illegal? There's a number of possibly illegal actions involved. Accepting or soliciting damaging information on a political rival from a foreign government could - depending on whether you consider that information to constitute a "contribution" to the campaign - violate federal election law. Aiding or covering for Russia's breach of information security would be illegal under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Firing the director of the FBI in order to try and kill a criminal investigation into your own administration almost certainly constitutes obstruction of justice. Other charges such as perjury or lying to investigators have already popped up in respect of many members of Trump's campaign and will probably continue to pop up as time goes on.

I could keep going, but seriously, I've done this multiple times before. Here's a good writeup from the Atlantic summarising the many, many suspicious details that Mueller's investigation has revealed.

Shit, none of what I just wrote was even on-topic. On-topic: no, Russia should not be permitted back into the G7/G8. Russia was excluded from those meetings because of an unjustifiable military invasion of southeastern Ukraine culminating in the brazen annexation of another nation's sovereign territory. They have not withdrawn from Ukraine; therefore, they should not be allowed back in.

And Russia isn't interested.

https://ria.ru/world/20180608/1522359730.html

Translation: Russia puts emphasis not on G8, but on other formats, told RIA Novosti spokesman of the President of RF, Dmitri Peskov.

So glad to know that Trump alienated our allies and tried to suck off a country that hasn't been doing anyone any favors lately for FUCKING NOTHING!

Catnip1024:
Your entire OP is set up to heavily imply collusion. As opposed to general imcompetence. Collusion has not been proven, hence why Trump is still in power, hence at the moment it remains a conspiracy theory. Fed by a media individually desperate to be the outlet that got "that big scoop", snatching at every vague link to try and prove something.

There are legitimate concerns. There is a point to conducting this investigation into the links. But it is, at this point, pure speculation to imply that Trump dances to Putin's tune.

While you are technically correct, calling it a conspiracy theory strikes a very particular tone, one that implies it has less merit then theories about Putin and Trump colluding actually has.

There's plenty of implications, at this point to, suggest that Trump's relation to Russia and Putin aren't as above board as he likes to pretend. The Mueller investigation has charged several of Trump's closest people, and Gates has even plead guilty to conspiracy against the United States. From what the Muller investigation has released so far, it is obvious that there exist strong ties between Trump's campaign management and Russian agents, some of them tied to Russian intelligence agencies.

On top of that Trump has flip-flopped a lot in terms of Russia, but he always comes back to being hesitant to do anything that can do Russia harm. Even the sanctions he approved he tried to neuter as best as he could and he only agreed to approve them after mounting pressure from the Republican party. This latest announcement to get Russia back into the G8 can hardly be seen as anything other than an open play in Putin's favor, especially considering why Russia was excluded in the first place and how the sanctions are affecting the Russian economy.

It is too early to make definitive statements about Trump's exact relation to Putin, but that it is not entirely above board seems pretty obvious at this point. There is enough circumstantial evidence, both from the investigation into Trump's ties to Russia and from Trump's continued actions against Russia, to put beyond resonable doubt that Trump is not squeaky clean.

Catnip1024:

Lil devils x:
What here is a conspiracy theory? No conspiracy theory, these are just the events that already happened. Don't you remember what happened last time he met with Russia? He isn't intelligent enough to make it secret, he did this openly.

Your entire OP is set up to heavily imply collusion. As opposed to general imcompetence. Collusion has not been proven, hence why Trump is still in power, hence at the moment it remains a conspiracy theory. Fed by a media individually desperate to be the outlet that got "that big scoop", snatching at every vague link to try and prove something.

There are legitimate concerns. There is a point to conducting this investigation into the links. But it is, at this point, pure speculation to imply that Trump dances to Putin's tune.

First of all,what makes you think that Trump would be removed from office for collusion? That is not a given, as he can only be removed from office through impeachment and his party has a majority of both houses and have already blocked numerous attempts to impeach him. There is ample evidence of his campaign colluding with Russia, however, Collusion is not a federal crime. Have you not been paying attention to the Russian investigation thread? They just indicted a Russian operative and charged Trumps campaign Chair with Conspiracy against the United States.

It is not "the media" leading this, Trump himself is who leads the way by proposing the US ally with Russia to protect the US from cyber attacks WHILE RUSSIA IS THE ONE CARRYING THEM OUT, His cyber security advisers resigned as a group citing Trump was not addressing threats, then Trump fired the person responsible for white house cyber security, and additionally completely eliminated the cyber security division in the white house all together and does nothing to protect the upcoming election from more election interference. All of this while you have the same Russian Hacker groups that hacked the DNC hacking the department of defense, numerous government agencies and officials, the US power Grid, Hospitals, businesses and citizens. Trump is not only not doing anything to stop them, he is also making it easier for them to carry out attacks by eliminating the people who are supposed to stop them is part of the problem here.

BTW, There are numerous sources for what I am stating here, not just "some vague link". You can google the topic and you will find ample information of these things if you do not approve of the link I provided. It isn't like this is some secret here, I am sure you will find sources you approve of.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/12/what-is-collusion-215366
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-russia-20170709-story.html
http://fortune.com/2017/08/26/trump-cybersecurity-advisors-resign/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/white-house-cybersecurity-coordinator-position-eliminated/
https://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/news/450412796/Trump-tells-White-House-cybersecurity-officer-Youre-fired
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nsa-chief-trump-directed-counter-russian-meddling/story?id=53393061

Some of the relevant hacks by the same Russian hacker Groups:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russian-hack-almost-brought-the-u-s-military-to-its-knees/
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/29/fbi-warns-russians-hacked-hundreds-of-thousands-of-routers.html
https://www.recode.net/2017/6/27/15881666/global-eu-cyber-attack-us-hackers-nsa-hospitals
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/experts-link-nsa-leaks-shadow-brokers-russia-kaspersky-144840962.html
https://www.npr.org/2018/03/23/596044821/russia-hacked-u-s-power-grid-so-what-will-the-trump-administration-do-about-it
https://federalnewsradio.com/cybersecurity/2018/02/russian-hackers-exploit-weakness-in-us-cyber-defense-2/

Yes, these ARE legitimate concerns and yes, you can google for more sources if you would rather use another source than the ones provided.

Ninjamedic:

Lil devils x:
Believe me, I already know all too well that the government, not just the media ignored Puerto Rico, I actually went there to help and encountered more barriers and corruption than I knew what to do with. I posted quite a bit on that already here.

If I didn't say it before I'd like to take a moment to state my respect for your actions. It's one thing for someone like me to prattle on a forum, you actually went out there to do something about it.

The more people talk about things the increased likelihood something is done about it, so rattling off on forums is still drawing attention to the issue. Sadly though with Puerto Rico's case it is going to take much more than Medical teams going in to solve the problems there and it isn't just the Media ignoring it, the people in general are. Hell, just compare the number of posts on all the other threads in the forums vs the one about Puerto Rico. That is happening everywhere, not just the news media and this forum.

Gethsemani:
While you are technically correct, calling it a conspiracy theory strikes a very particular tone, one that implies it has less merit then theories about Putin and Trump colluding actually has.

It's a tone more to do with my irritation at the poor focus of the media than anything else. There are more than enough legitimate things to attack Trump for, making tenuous links before they have actual evidence is both unnecessary and likely to detract from your argument.

From what the Muller investigation has released so far, it is obvious that there exist strong ties between Trump's campaign management and Russian agents, some of them tied to Russian intelligence agencies.

See, there are two parts to this. The first is, Russia doesn't need to be actively conversing with Trump, and doesn't even really need to reveal that it is Russia as a state, not some dodgy sleazy businessmen. Not when it works just as well to toss in some illegally obtained information and watch the fireworks. I don't doubt that the Russians would happily interfere in elections, what I contest is the level of cooperation people believe exists. If the Russian state was to be intimately involved, I'd imagine them to be a lot more careful to hide their tracks. Much in the same way that they use loosely affiliated groups to conduct cyber attacks.

The second is that the nature of US politics is that big business, and big businessmen, can pretty obviously invest huge amounts to attempt to influence results. Considering the oligarchic nature of certain states, it was only a matter of time until states tried to get in on the act. The whole system needs fixing, bottom up.

Even the sanctions he approved he tried to neuter as best as he could and he only agreed to approve them after mounting pressure from the Republican party.

Again, conspiracy or just a businessman with a lot of dodgy interests?

This latest announcement to get Russia back into the G8 can hardly be seen as anything other than an open play in Putin's favor, especially considering why Russia was excluded in the first place and how the sanctions are affecting the Russian economy.

Or the sign of a guy throwing a temper tantrum at his actual allies, regardless of the knock-on effects.

It is too early to make definitive statements about Trump's exact relation to Putin, but that it is not entirely above board seems pretty obvious at this point. There is enough circumstantial evidence, both from the investigation into Trump's ties to Russia and from Trump's continued actions against Russia, to put beyond resonable doubt that Trump is not squeaky clean.

And I am happy to be proven wrong. But I have a higher threshold of definitive evidence than the media, it appears.

Nobody pretended Trump was squeaky clean. I doubt anybody managing multi-millions is.

Catnip1024:
I don't doubt that the Russians would happily interfere in elections, what I contest is the level of cooperation people believe exists. If the Russian state was to be intimately involved, I'd imagine them to be a lot more careful to hide their tracks. Much in the same way that they use loosely affiliated groups to conduct cyber attacks.

You have to take into consideration that Russia had just successfully interfered with Ukrainian Elections and Trumps campaign chair had just helped get their candidate elected that literally gave Russia a part of his Country. When you look at the events that took place in Ukraine and the events that took place in the US, it is not a coincidence, you had the same players directly involved. They were attempting to do the same thing in the US due to their success in the Ukraine. This does not stop there however, Russia is attempting to do so in Europe and elsewhere as well due to how successful they have been. Their end goal here is to weaken the EU and US to improve their own position, so they will help whatever candidate they think will help best accomplish that.

WolvDragon:
If Russia seeks to actively harm us and our allies then they're risking further isolation and a much more horrifying scenario, World War 3. I'm pretty sure Putin doesn't want that, no one does. Even Kim Jong Un doesn't want nuclear war with the United States.

Nobody wanted that during the Cold War either, so it didn't happen. That didn't stop the US and USSR working against each other.

In reading some of these responses, I got some enlightenment in our current manner of conversing with one another... and some more confusion.

I wonder why discourse between each other has failed. Why it seems like we talk in circles. And the problem is obviously that when any subject comes up, instead of focusing on the subject at hand, we bring up others to muddy the waters.

We engage in Strawman points more than we do the actual topic at hand.

ICE, Climate Change, Scott Pruitt and the EPA, Trump's criminally disgusting handling of Puerto Rico, Media and "Fake News", etc... These are troubling matters that I hold dear and do believe we should discuss.

The Title of this thread is "Trump represents Russian Interest at G7, threatens Allies".

There is plenty of space to bring up these matters, as we need to and they are horrible. But they do not belong in any conversation here where we're talking about the President's actions. ICE's actions with human beings (call them whatever you want to further your cause) is highly distressing, but it has nothing to do with Trump's actions with the G7. Trump's handling of football athletes and shouting down people engaging in free speech is applauding. But it has nothing to do with Trump's actions with the G7.

Meanwhile, bringing up Sanctions that are not followed through with, Mueller and his investigation, past actions with Trump and Russia (not just Putin but links with Donald's money and Russian interests)? They do belong in this conversation because they at least establish motive, M.O., and/or simple links of why Donald seems to act a certain way with Russia and not with anyone else.

Any other subject but Trump's actions and mannerisms with Russia (including past links and proposed future links) seem to be only to serve to derail the conversation at hand. So the question is... why are people actively doing this?

Lil devils x:
You have to take into consideration that Russia had just successfully interfered with Ukrainian Elections and Trumps campaign chair had just helped get their candidate elected that literally gave Russia a part of his Country. When you look at the events that took place in Ukraine and the events that took place in the US, it is not a coincidence, you had the same players directly involved. They were attempting to do the same thing in the US due to their success in the Ukraine. This does not stop there however, Russia is attempting to do so in Europe and elsewhere as well due to how successful they have been. Their end goal here is to weaken the EU and US to improve their own position, so they will help whatever candidate they think will help best accomplish that.

Well, I'd say that the Ukraine and the US are significantly different scenarios in pretty much every way going. For starters, the Ukraine has been wavering between pro-Russian and pro-EU parties for a couple of decades now, and lies within the Russian "sphere of influence". And had just started moving towards closer cooperation with a significant political threat, potentially cutting off Russian strategic access to the Mediterranean.

Russia felt threatened into taking more overt action in the Ukraine. It doesn't have to with the US - it can play the long game.

erttheking:
So glad to know that Trump alienated our allies and tried to suck off a country that hasn't been doing anyone any favors lately for FUCKING NOTHING!

Ooh, I missed that.

So that's another argument for incompetence over conspiracy...

Catnip1024:
So that's another argument for incompetence over conspiracy...

No, it's still a conspiracy. But Trump's not an equal in their arrangement. He's a puppet. And Russia doesn't give a flying fuck about Trump. Russia benefits from humiliating Trump and the US. It diminishes the US even further in the eyes of their allies. And there's nothing Trump can do about it except take it.

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
So glad to know that Trump alienated our allies and tried to suck off a country that hasn't been doing anyone any favors lately for FUCKING NOTHING!

Ooh, I missed that.

So that's another argument for incompetence over conspiracy...

Nah, nothing that Trump does makes sense if you look at him as a politician, even a hopelessly crooked one. There are some awful politicians in this world. Putin is one of them but I'm fairly confident at the end of the day Putin doesn't actively try to hurt Russian interests. Same for Turkey. Erdogan, complete piece of shit, but I'm sure he actually thinks he does what is best for Turkey.

Trump's actions, on the other only make sense if you look at him as a saboteur deliberately trying to weaken the United States nationally and internationally. There's no way he thinks anything he does actually benefits America.

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
So glad to know that Trump alienated our allies and tried to suck off a country that hasn't been doing anyone any favors lately for FUCKING NOTHING!

Ooh, I missed that.

So that's another argument for incompetence over conspiracy...

You know it's funny, when Trudeau alienated our allies and tried t suck off to our enemies, I don't recall there being much complaints from progressives. Both times, because Trudeau I and II both did this, with foreign policy being pretty consistent for the 30 years between them regardless of party in power because it revolved around a non-partisan goal of rebuilding what that family destroyed.

Say what you will about Trump, he hasn't openly praised Russia and called them a model to be emulated. Both Trudeau's did that with the USSR and Red China, and at the younger one took a bribe from them for military technology (and his father probably did far worst and we just don't know about it. This is a man who was personal friends with the gangster Castro).

It's all so tiring, at least the memes are spicy and the left is still incapable of doing it.

image

Zontar:

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
So glad to know that Trump alienated our allies and tried to suck off a country that hasn't been doing anyone any favors lately for FUCKING NOTHING!

Ooh, I missed that.

So that's another argument for incompetence over conspiracy...

You know it's funny, when Trudeau alienated our allies and tried t suck off to our enemies, I don't recall there being much complaints from progressives. Both times, because Trudeau I and II both did this, with foreign policy being pretty consistent for the 30 years between them regardless of party in power because it revolved around a non-partisan goal of rebuilding what that family destroyed.

Say what you will about Trump, he hasn't openly praised Russia and called them a model to be emulated. Both Trudeau's did that with the USSR and Red China, and at the younger one took a bribe from them for military technology (and his father probably did far worst and we just don't know about it. This is a man who was personal friends with the gangster Castro).

It's all so tiring, at least the memes are spicy and the left is still incapable of doing it.

image

So you can't actually defend Trump's actions and go "but what about x? Also memes."

Also hasn't openly praised Russia? He talks shit about them, but he schizophrenically jumps back and forth between that and praising him. He has no stable opinions.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/03/politics/trump-putin-russia-timeline/

erttheking:

So you can?t actually defend Trump?s actions and go ?but what about x? Also memes.?

It's more the fact I'm not currently following this because of local politics having stuff that's happening I'm paying attention to. Yes, I'm aware of the irony of that given this is happening in my backyard.

Also hasn?t openly praised Russia? He talks shit about them, but he schizophrenically jumps back and forth between that and praising him. He has no stable opinions.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/03/politics/trump-putin-russia-timeline/

>Quoting CNN

When I say "praising" I mean literally calling them a model to be emulated.

Zontar:

erttheking:

So you can?t actually defend Trump?s actions and go ?but what about x? Also memes.?

It's more the fact I'm not currently following this because of local politics having stuff that's happening I'm paying attention to. Yes, I'm aware of the irony of that given this is happening in my backyard.

Also hasn?t openly praised Russia? He talks shit about them, but he schizophrenically jumps back and forth between that and praising him. He has no stable opinions.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/03/politics/trump-putin-russia-timeline/

>Quoting CNN

When I say "praising" I mean literally calling them a model to be emulated.

"I'm not currently paying attention to this" and yet you still feel the need to comment. Uh-huh. My point still stands.

All of them are listing direct tweets from him and have direct sources to the quotes. Come up with a real criticism as opposed to that weak ass "CNN" crap.

And that's a real specific definition of praising. So I guess you can claim he didn't praise Russia so long as you only count a very specific type of praise and all others don't count. If you're being disingenuous in other words.

Why are people still taking Zontar seriously enough to respond to his posts about politics?

A lightly paraphrased accounting of what happened today:

Trump @ 10:55 AM local time: "I have a great relationship with the G7. I would say our relationship is a 10."

Trump @ 7:20 PM local time: "I'm not signing the G7 agreement."

Zontar:
Say what you will about Trump, he hasn't openly praised Russia and called them a model to be emulated.

...yes, he has. He has done that. He has done that many times.

Zontar:
Both Trudeau's did that with the USSR and Red China, and at the younger one took a bribe from them for military technology (and his father probably did far worst and we just don't know about it.

I would love to see a citation for this.

Zontar:

Come on, man.

PsychedelicDiamond:
There are some awful politicians in this world. Putin is one of them but I'm fairly confident at the end of the day Putin doesn't actively try to hurt Russian interests. Same for Turkey. Erdogan, complete piece of shit, but I'm sure he actually thinks he does what is best for Turkey.

Putin, by all accounts, is a great politician. He's also molded in the Russian tradition of iron-willed leaders that will do anything to get, keep and exercise power. That makes him pretty evil by Western standards. But you can't deny his prowess in consolidating his power, this was the mean who came to power on a liberal platform (remember when Putin was pro-GLBT and free media?) but when that began faltering managed to deftly switch his platform to authoritarian nationalism and changed his entire voter base in the process.

Putin, for all his many moral faults, rejuvenated a failing Russian state and brought a lot of Russians a sense that they were coming into their own right again, instead of just being fucked over by the West. While the last few years have seen that fervor diminish somewhat (people getting flashbacks to Soviet rationing in the 80's probably doesn't help), Putin is still a politician that has the ability to figure out what his people want and, if not deliver, promise that they'll get that.

I am not a particular fan of Putin, but you can't deny that he has a political acumen and savvy that's pretty rare. Saying he's awful is to diminish just how good he actually is at realpolitik.

bastardofmelbourne:

Zontar:

Come on, man.

"Why does everyone keep calling me/the alt-right/conservatives sexist?"

Zontar:

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
So glad to know that Trump alienated our allies and tried to suck off a country that hasn't been doing anyone any favors lately for FUCKING NOTHING!

Ooh, I missed that.

So that's another argument for incompetence over conspiracy...

You know it's funny, when Trudeau alienated our allies and tried t suck off to our enemies, I don't recall there being much complaints from progressives. Both times, because Trudeau I and II both did this, with foreign policy being pretty consistent for the 30 years between them regardless of party in power because it revolved around a non-partisan goal of rebuilding what that family destroyed.

Say what you will about Trump, he hasn't openly praised Russia and called them a model to be emulated. Both Trudeau's did that with the USSR and Red China, and at the younger one took a bribe from them for military technology (and his father probably did far worst and we just don't know about it. This is a man who was personal friends with the gangster Castro).

It's all so tiring, at least the memes are spicy and the left is still incapable of doing it.

image

How is Trump acting and looking like a spoiled child a positive for you? He looks like he just doesn't want to eat his veggies.

Gethsemani:

PsychedelicDiamond:
There are some awful politicians in this world. Putin is one of them but I'm fairly confident at the end of the day Putin doesn't actively try to hurt Russian interests. Same for Turkey. Erdogan, complete piece of shit, but I'm sure he actually thinks he does what is best for Turkey.

Putin, by all accounts, is a great politician. He's also molded in the Russian tradition of iron-willed leaders that will do anything to get, keep and exercise power. That makes him pretty evil by Western standards. But you can't deny his prowess in consolidating his power, this was the mean who came to power on a liberal platform (remember when Putin was pro-GLBT and free media?) but when that began faltering managed to deftly switch his platform to authoritarian nationalism and changed his entire voter base in the process.

Putin, for all his many moral faults, rejuvenated a failing Russian state and brought a lot of Russians a sense that they were coming into their own right again, instead of just being fucked over by the West. While the last few years have seen that fervor diminish somewhat (people getting flashbacks to Soviet rationing in the 80's probably doesn't help), Putin is still a politician that has the ability to figure out what his people want and, if not deliver, promise that they'll get that.

I am not a particular fan of Putin, but you can't deny that he has a political acumen and savvy that's pretty rare. Saying he's awful is to diminish just how good he actually is at realpolitik.

He is an evil man, him being competently evil is not a good thing either.

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