Count Dankula is now a member/supporter of UKIP.

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WolvDragon:

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

He wrote those tweets, he and Trump are god awful bigots.

You have an even lower bar for what a bigot is than I do.

And I'm sure yours is quite as low when you call every voter who voted for Trump bigots.

We'll talk some other time. I gotta head to bed myself.

I also think anyone who joins the KKK is a bigot, or is that generalizing too?

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

Saelune:
You have an even lower bar for what a bigot is than I do.

And I'm sure yours is quite as low when you call every voter who voted for Trump bigots.

We'll talk some other time. I gotta head to bed myself.

I also think anyone who joins the KKK is a bigot, or is that generalizing too?

One last post before I go for the night.

Also that's a false equivalance. The people who join the KKK know what they're signing up for, not every Trump voter did when they voted for Trump. People like you on the left needs to stop generalizing every Trump voter as bigots, otherwise the democratic party is doomed. There's a reason why states who voted for the dems for so long went to Trump, and it wasn't because they were bigots.

WolvDragon:

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

Zontar thinks Trump is a good president, I don't. But Noah has said some shitty things in the past about jews, that's not new.

He (Trevor Noah) really didn't. And what he said about Trump and bigots is true regardless.

He wrote those tweets, he and Trump are god awful bigots.

You will need post something better then just those tweets. All I see there are some bad jokes, not anything as bad as trump referring to most Mexicans crossing the border as thugs and rapists.

File this one under.....who gives a fat shit? Who is this guy, other than someone who looks like a screamo band reject and who has the sense of humour of a 14-year-old me discovering South Park for the first time?

Well, I'm hardly surprised.

In my experience, the cycle goes something like this:

1) a person or persons in the media says or does something that can be interpreted as racist, sexist, homophobic, whatever.
2) that person or persons is roundly condemned for the thing they said or did, sometimes in disproportionately harsh terms.
3) that person or persons says "fuck you, I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever, this is about free speech."
4) that person or persons joins a far-right party that embodies the beliefs he was unfairly accused of having, but who appeals to him because they validate his sense of persecution and tells him he was right all along.
5) a person or persons is now just another far-right shitbird and/or shitbirds.

Don't get stuck in the shitbird cycle, folks.

WolvDragon:
The fact she didn't blame her horrible campaign but Russia, and James Comey only is reason enough for me to regret voting her. She ran a horrible campaign and she doesn't have the guts to admit it.

There was an interesting article I read written in the wake of the 2012 presidential election about how candidates for office are nearly always shocked by their defeat, even if their defeat may have seemed likely or even inevitable to outside observers, purely because during the campaign, the candidate is surrounded by supporters, donors and yes-men whose main job is to convince the candidate that they're the right person with the right platform at the right time. That bubble of confidence means that the candidate's own estimate of their chances is nearly always exaggerated, and their eventual defeat is nearly always a cataclysmic blow to their self-esteem.

Mitt Romney was practically shell-shocked by his defeat in 2012. Even though he was running against a charismatic, popular incumbent who was also the first black President, and Romney was a rich white Mormon who was on record saying that he didn't care too much about winning the support of poor people. Somehow it still caught him by surprise! What else is there to do in that scenario except stand forlornly at a gas station, wondering where it all went wrong?

In that context, Hillary's reaction is somewhere between exhausted resignation and childish pique. She lost an election she couldn't have lost, to a candidate who couldn't have been elected. She's one of the most accomplished female politicians in modern memory, she was a shoe-in, people were giving her 95% chances of victory in the days leading up to the vote, and she lost to a guy who has pale patches around his eyes where they put the tanning goggles when you're in the salon. A guy who was being sued for fraud during the election. A guy whose first wife had accused him of marital rape in a sworn deposition. A guy who'd spent the 90s making commercials for hamburgers, while she was working her ass off trying to reform the nation's healthcare with a plan so left-wing it made Obamacare look about as generous as dumping sick hobos off of a bridge.

In hindsight, she did run a bad election. They completely miscalculated Trump's appeal, they overestimated their candidate's charisma, they put too much emphasis on dense policy proposals over powerful one-line soundbites ("Make America Great Again," "Build The Wall," "Lock Her Up", "Drain The Swamp"), they locked down the primaries so hard that it bordered on rigging the damn things, and they didn't pay enough attention to the warning signs coming out of the Rust Belt. And she lost. And it was insane, because in a sane world inhabited by sane people, the voters would value solid policy over soundbites. They'd value competence over charisma. They wouldn't try to fight corruption by electing an extremely corrupt man; they wouldn't try to support transparency by electing a proven liar. They wouldn't try and respond to accusations of racism, sexism or deplorable-ness by electing a racist, sexist, deplorable man. There is no sane world where voting for Trump is in any way better than voting for Clinton, but somehow, that's the world America got.

So I get why Clinton feels angry. Everyone was telling her that the stars were right, that this was her time, that she had good ideas and she was a brilliant stateswoman and a proven track record. And then all of that turned out to be hot garbage, and the next thing she knows she's sitting in a breakfast lodge somewhere with no makeup idly tapping at her phone and thinking "What the fuck just happened? Hey, that's a great title for a book."

It's really hard for people to come to term with their faults. I hope Clinton does it eventually. But she has more reason to be angry than most people do.

WolvDragon:
The people who join the KKK know what they're signing up for, not every Trump voter did when they voted for Trump.

How the fuck could they not? The only way that is possible is if they had literally been living in a bomb shelter, emerged on voting day, went to vote and ticked the name they preferred the sound/look of. Everything he said was broadcast, everything about him was on display, yet people "didn't know"? Bullshit.

Saelune:
Had you considered Warren Native American, then I would have backed off about you being Jewish.

Canadians don't consider people who are more white then native genetically and not particularly native in their culture to be native, at best they are Metis.

Kwak:
How the fuck could they not?

Never, EVER, underestimate the ability of some people to know very little about who and what they vote for.

Large quantities of the public are highly disengaged from politics. They are highly unaware of important facts about the state of the nation, and often vote on the basis of very simplistic notions of what various candidates and parties stand for. This is a lot of the basis of vague but positive-sounding slogans or buzzwords: they're effective, because people tap into the simplistic ideal without having to address the complexity on which things truly hinge.

Kwak:

WolvDragon:
The people who join the KKK know what they're signing up for, not every Trump voter did when they voted for Trump.

How the fuck could they not? The only way that is possible is if they had literally been living in a bomb shelter, emerged on voting day, went to vote and ticked the name they preferred the sound/look of. Everything he said was broadcast, everything about him was on display, yet people "didn't know"? Bullshit.

Kwak:

WolvDragon:
The people who join the KKK know what they're signing up for, not every Trump voter did when they voted for Trump.

How the fuck could they not? The only way that is possible is if they had literally been living in a bomb shelter, emerged on voting day, went to vote and ticked the name they preferred the sound/look of. Everything he said was broadcast, everything about him was on display, yet people "didn't know"? Bullshit.

Those of us who voted for Obama thought he was gonna be the anti-establishment politician, that turned out to be a lie.

Kwak:

WolvDragon:
The people who join the KKK know what they're signing up for, not every Trump voter did when they voted for Trump.

How the fuck could they not? The only way that is possible is if they had literally been living in a bomb shelter, emerged on voting day, went to vote and ticked the name they preferred the sound/look of. Everything he said was broadcast, everything about him was on display, yet people "didn't know"? Bullshit.

I'd gather that a lot of people voted Trump because he wasn't Clinton. It didn't matter what Trump said, he wasn't Clinton

WolvDragon:

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

And I'm sure yours is quite as low when you call every voter who voted for Trump bigots.

We'll talk some other time. I gotta head to bed myself.

I also think anyone who joins the KKK is a bigot, or is that generalizing too?

One last post before I go for the night.

Also that's a false equivalance. The people who join the KKK know what they're signing up for, not every Trump voter did when they voted for Trump. People like you on the left needs to stop generalizing every Trump voter as bigots, otherwise the democratic party is doomed. There's a reason why states who voted for the dems for so long went to Trump, and it wasn't because they were bigots.

No, its not. People become Republicans cause they hate LGBT people, non-whites, usually Mexicans or Middle-Easterners these days, and/or the poor.

At 'best' people are corporate shills who have no problem throwing LGBT people, non-whites, and poor peope under the bus to earn a buck. How is that better?

Agema:

Kwak:
How the fuck could they not?

Never, EVER, underestimate the ability of some people to know very little about who and what they vote for.

Large quantities of the public are highly disengaged from politics. They are highly unaware of important facts about the state of the nation, and often vote on the basis of very simplistic notions of what various candidates and parties stand for. This is a lot of the basis of vague but positive-sounding slogans or buzzwords: they're effective, because people tap into the simplistic ideal without having to address the complexity on which things truly hinge.

As I said earlier, I think it is more offensive to think people were tricked by Trump than to just be that bigoted.

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

Saelune:
I also think anyone who joins the KKK is a bigot, or is that generalizing too?

One last post before I go for the night.

Also that's a false equivalance. The people who join the KKK know what they're signing up for, not every Trump voter did when they voted for Trump. People like you on the left needs to stop generalizing every Trump voter as bigots, otherwise the democratic party is doomed. There's a reason why states who voted for the dems for so long went to Trump, and it wasn't because they were bigots.

No, its not. People become Republicans cause they hate LGBT people, non-whites, usually Mexicans or Middle-Easterners these days, and/or the poor.

At 'best' people are corporate shills who have no problem throwing LGBT people, non-whites, and poor peope under the bus to earn a buck. How is that better?

First off, Mexicans are a nationally, not a race. Believe it or not white-mexicans do exist. Hispanics are not a race, but a cultural group that has origins from the Iberian peninsula. The vast majority of Mexicans are mestizos who are descendants from the native peoples of mexico and the spanairds who colonized the Americas. And I Do agree people who vote for republicans are corporate shills since they tend to vote for a party that is in total favor of the rich. But not every GOP voter is a bigot, stop that generalization. It's what hurt Hillary Clinton last time.

[/quote]I also think anyone who joins the KKK is a bigot, or is that generalizing too?[/quote]

One last post before I go for the night.

Also that's a false equivalance. The people who join the KKK know what they're signing up for, not every Trump voter did when they voted for Trump. People like you on the left needs to stop generalizing every Trump voter as bigots, otherwise the democratic party is doomed. There's a reason why states who voted for the dems for so long went to Trump, and it wasn't because they were bigots.[quote/]

While I agree with the sentiment that the Democrats insulting Trump voters is a terrible idea I'm not sure I can agree with the assumption that not all of them knew what they were signing up for. Trump isn't a nuanced guy or a wolf in Sheep clothes. He's a cartoon character who either doesn't try hiding his flaws or is just very bad at it. His corruption, his lies, his plans being opposed by just about any expert and his general temperament were all in the open. That they didn't know what they were signing up for implies these traits were somehow successfully hidden and only surfaced after Trump had deceived those voters into believing those flaws weren't there.

But that's not what happened. Trump very publicly doubled down on every flaw he ever had. There's no way voters could have missed the negative aspects of Trump so we can only assume they either agreed with these flaws or were willing to tolerate them for whatever reason. Some might have gone through great lengths to deceive themselves into believing they haven't seen what Trump was really like but that's not the same as them actually not having seen it. They did, they just thought it was inconvenient to consider the much maligned establishment as the better choice.

I don't think every Trump voter needs to be a bigot. That's not their biggest drive. Instead I feel the belief that the establishment is evil and out to get them is what led so many to insist Trump being the better choice despite the overwhelming evidence otherwise. They don't hate brown people but old white guys in suits.

WolvDragon:

Kwak:

WolvDragon:
The people who join the KKK know what they're signing up for, not every Trump voter did when they voted for Trump.

How the fuck could they not? The only way that is possible is if they had literally been living in a bomb shelter, emerged on voting day, went to vote and ticked the name they preferred the sound/look of. Everything he said was broadcast, everything about him was on display, yet people "didn't know"? Bullshit.

Kwak:

WolvDragon:
The people who join the KKK know what they're signing up for, not every Trump voter did when they voted for Trump.

How the fuck could they not? The only way that is possible is if they had literally been living in a bomb shelter, emerged on voting day, went to vote and ticked the name they preferred the sound/look of. Everything he said was broadcast, everything about him was on display, yet people "didn't know"? Bullshit.

Those of us who voted for Obama thought he was gonna be the anti-establishment politician, that turned out to be a lie.

An anti-establishment politician is at best a lie. If you want to see how that works in the best case then you need to look to Jimmy Carter. A good man who was a rather lame duck president. And thats things working at the best. You still have an anti-establishment president with trump, hes shaken things up more then probably any other world leader in a very long time. But these are not things you want shaken up, delicate trade balances, climate change accords, and fucking up tax plans.

WolvDragon:
Those of us who voted for Obama thought he was gonna be the anti-establishment politician, that turned out to be a lie.

I don't think any single president is actually capable of defeating the establishment. Too much works against them.

~Insert every single overused unoriginal meme and gif from the bastard interweb sarcastically proclaiming my shock and surprise here~

Worgen:
An anti-establishment politician is at best a lie. If you want to see how that works in the best case then you need to look to Jimmy Carter. A good man who was a rather lame duck president. And thats things working at the best. You still have an anti-establishment president with trump, hes shaken things up more then probably any other world leader in a very long time. But these are not things you want shaken up, delicate trade balances, climate change accords, and fucking up tax plans.

Shit, man, I spend forty minutes writing up a big take on the Cautionary Tale of President Carter and then you go ninja it.

Great minds, man. Great minds.

Xsjadoblayde:
~Insert every single overused unoriginal meme and gif from the bastard interweb sarcastically proclaiming my shock and surprise here~

bastardofmelbourne:

Worgen:
An anti-establishment politician is at best a lie. If you want to see how that works in the best case then you need to look to Jimmy Carter. A good man who was a rather lame duck president. And thats things working at the best. You still have an anti-establishment president with trump, hes shaken things up more then probably any other world leader in a very long time. But these are not things you want shaken up, delicate trade balances, climate change accords, and fucking up tax plans.

Shit, man, I spend forty minutes writing up a big take on the Cautionary Tale of President Carter and then you go ninja it.

Great minds, man. Great minds.

Must be the top hats. My avatar doesn't have one but I do. High Five.

You did include a lot more info in your post though, made for an interesting read.

WolvDragon:
Not everyone who voted for Trump supports his bigoted views.

Care to clarify that then? Why did they vote for Trump if they don't support their political views? He made them perfectly clear since the primaries up to now and counting. They knew that by electing him, they gave him the possibility to make all his views reality.

CaitSeith:

WolvDragon:
Not everyone who voted for Trump supports his bigoted views.

Care to clarify that then? Why did they vote for Trump if they don't support their political views? He made them perfectly clear since the primaries up to now and counting. They knew that by electing him, they gave him the possibility to make all his views reality.

As I already stated, some voted for him because they're tired of voting for establishment politicians, some voted for him because they thought he was gonna protect their blue-collar jobs. Do you really think the two time Obama voters who voted for Trump are suddenly gonna be bigots?

Did everyone who voted for Hillary Clinton supports having a pro corrupt, pro-war candidate?

CaitSeith:

WolvDragon:
Not everyone who voted for Trump supports his bigoted views.

Care to clarify that then? Why did they vote for Trump if they don't support their political views? He made them perfectly clear since the primaries up to now and counting. They knew that by electing him, they gave him the possibility to make all his views reality.

So you're saying that every politician you ever voted for you agreed with 100%. Not a single conflicting viewpoint. Not even one.

WolvDragon:

CaitSeith:

WolvDragon:
Not everyone who voted for Trump supports his bigoted views.

Care to clarify that then? Why did they vote for Trump if they don't support their political views? He made them perfectly clear since the primaries up to now and counting. They knew that by electing him, they gave him the possibility to make all his views reality.

As I already stated, some voted for him because they're tired of voting for establishment politicians, some voted for him because they thought he was gonna protect their blue-collar jobs. Do you really think the two time Obama voters who voted for Trump are suddenly gonna be bigots?

Are you implying that the McCain and Romney voters are bigots though? Anyways, no matter for whom anyone voted beforehand. Those who voted for Trump as an anti-establishment/pro-blue collar candidate still considered that accepting his open bigotry was a fair price (and they heard it directly from Trump himself, so they weren't uninformed nor lied to).

The consequences from their votes are undeniably the same as if they had been bigots, and that matters much more than any pejorative.

CaitSeith:

WolvDragon:

CaitSeith:

Care to clarify that then? Why did they vote for Trump if they don't support their political views? He made them perfectly clear since the primaries up to now and counting. They knew that by electing him, they gave him the possibility to make all his views reality.

As I already stated, some voted for him because they're tired of voting for establishment politicians, some voted for him because they thought he was gonna protect their blue-collar jobs. Do you really think the two time Obama voters who voted for Trump are suddenly gonna be bigots?

Are you implying that the McCain and Romney voters are bigots though? Anyways, no matter for whom anyone voted beforehand. Those who voted for Trump as an anti-establishment/pro-blue collar candidate still considered that accepting his open bigotry was a fair price (and they heard it directly from Trump himself, so they weren't uninformed nor lied to).

The consequences from their votes are undeniably the same as if they had been bigots, and that matters much more than any pejorative.

Another typical escapist user twisting my words because they think they found some hidden meaning behind my oh so clear statements. No honey not all of them are bigots nor do I think a majority are bigots and if you been paying attention to my posts this entire thread, I been defending Trump voters from Saelune's generalization. But please continue to put words in my mouth when I didnt. I'm tired of people on the escapist asking such dumb questions and think I implied some sort of deeper message. How about you just read what I post and don't fucking over think it! I never said Romney or McCain voters, that's on you!

WolvDragon:

CaitSeith:

WolvDragon:

As I already stated, some voted for him because they're tired of voting for establishment politicians, some voted for him because they thought he was gonna protect their blue-collar jobs. Do you really think the two time Obama voters who voted for Trump are suddenly gonna be bigots?

Are you implying that the McCain and Romney voters are bigots though? Anyways, no matter for whom anyone voted beforehand. Those who voted for Trump as an anti-establishment/pro-blue collar candidate still considered that accepting his open bigotry was a fair price (and they heard it directly from Trump himself, so they weren't uninformed nor lied to).

The consequences from their votes are undeniably the same as if they had been bigots, and that matters much more than any pejorative.

Another typical escapist user twisting my words because they think they found some hidden meaning behind my oh so clear statements. No honey not all of them are bigots nor do I think a majority are bigots and if you been paying attention to my posts this entire thread, I been defending Trump voters from Saelune's generalization. But please continue to put words in my mouth when I didnt.

Question dude, are you from the UK?

Samtemdo8:

WolvDragon:

CaitSeith:

Are you implying that the McCain and Romney voters are bigots though? Anyways, no matter for whom anyone voted beforehand. Those who voted for Trump as an anti-establishment/pro-blue collar candidate still considered that accepting his open bigotry was a fair price (and they heard it directly from Trump himself, so they weren't uninformed nor lied to).

The consequences from their votes are undeniably the same as if they had been bigots, and that matters much more than any pejorative.

Another typical escapist user twisting my words because they think they found some hidden meaning behind my oh so clear statements. No honey not all of them are bigots nor do I think a majority are bigots and if you been paying attention to my posts this entire thread, I been defending Trump voters from Saelune's generalization. But please continue to put words in my mouth when I didnt.

Question dude, are you from the UK?

No, I'm American, why?

Here Comes Tomorrow:

CaitSeith:

WolvDragon:
Not everyone who voted for Trump supports his bigoted views.

Care to clarify that then? Why did they vote for Trump if they don't support their political views? He made them perfectly clear since the primaries up to now and counting. They knew that by electing him, they gave him the possibility to make all his views reality.

So you're saying that every politician you ever voted for you agreed with 100%. Not a single conflicting viewpoint. Not even one.

And how do you act when voting when you don't fully agree with the candidate? Do you give them half a vote? No, you still are accepting the parts you don't agree with as a fair price for giving them your support. Your contribution to the voting is the same as if you supported them 100%. The End.

WolvDragon:

Samtemdo8:

WolvDragon:

Another typical escapist user twisting my words because they think they found some hidden meaning behind my oh so clear statements. No honey not all of them are bigots nor do I think a majority are bigots and if you been paying attention to my posts this entire thread, I been defending Trump voters from Saelune's generalization. But please continue to put words in my mouth when I didnt.

Question dude, are you from the UK?

No, I'm American, why?

I was thinking of your first post here and it gave me the impression you were from the UK.

Samtemdo8:

WolvDragon:

Samtemdo8:

Question dude, are you from the UK?

No, I'm American, why?

I was thinking of your first post here and it gave me the impression you were from the UK.

Nah, I'm American. I just happen to to be interested in international politics at times.

WolvDragon:
snip

Then don't put words on Saelune's mouth either. Are you here to discuss in good will or not?

CaitSeith:

WolvDragon:
snip

Then don't put words on Saelune's mouth either. Are you here to discuss in good will or not?

When did I put words in Saelune's mouth Cait?

CaitSeith:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

CaitSeith:

Care to clarify that then? Why did they vote for Trump if they don't support their political views? He made them perfectly clear since the primaries up to now and counting. They knew that by electing him, they gave him the possibility to make all his views reality.

So you're saying that every politician you ever voted for you agreed with 100%. Not a single conflicting viewpoint. Not even one.

And how do you act when voting when you don't fully agree with the candidate? Do you give them half a vote? No, you still are accepting the parts you don't agree with as a fair price for giving them your support. Your contribution to the voting is the same as if you supported them 100%. The End.

But that doesn't reflect on the individual's political views. It's not a zero sum. You wonder why people are shifting right on the political spectrum it's shit like this.

Saelune:
As I said earlier, I think it is more offensive to think people were tricked by Trump than to just be that bigoted.

No.

Let me give an example. A friend of mine told me a story about his mother-in-law. About ten years ago, he and his wife had to talk to her out of voting for the BNP, which she thought she might vote for because she liked the leaflet that came through, promising various stuff including healthcare, jobs for British workers, etc. which all seemed great to her, because she's British. Right?

The problem was that the BNP are far right nationalists, and the mother-in-law is black. She might consider herself British, but the BNP do not. However, they don't advertise that on the election leaflets, do they? She didn't much read newspapers, or watch the TV, and so she had no idea of the true nature of the BNP. Ultimately a lot of people joined or voted for the BNP for similar reasons - mostly a combination of strenuous efforts by the BNP to conceal its racist and fascist nature, and a lack of seeking information from other sources.

In many cases, people may vote for a party simply because every else does - they are fairly clueless about it all, but all their mates and relatives vote X, so they do to. Is just what everyone does, isn't it? They might vote for a party because they're highly religious and the local religious representative tells them to. They might vote for a party because that's what their parents did, and they're not sufficiently advanced into independent, adult thinking to make up their own minds. And so on.

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