Ocasio-Cortez beats Crowley (NY-14 Democratic Primary)

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tf2godz:
The more time goes by, the more I start seeing trump getting elected is a good thing. not because I think he's a good president, GOD NO! but the fact that people actually paying attention to democracy now. There is no way this woman would have won if trumped and get into office. Trump was the bitter reminder of what happens if we don't vote. 2018 midterm is going to be in interesting.

Tell that to all the people whos lives Trump has ruined.

Medical knowledge advanced considerably after WW2 when the allies found all the results of the Nazis horrific experiments. I consider it making some good out of something bad, but I would never say it was worth it to let those people be tortured.

In Tehran during WW2...damnit, Saelune already beat me to a WW2 metaphor.

Anyway, world leaders got together, discussions between Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin to work together on a common goal (ish), wouldn't have happened without Hitler.

People are paying more attention to democracy now, yeah, the same way people are more interested in fire safety when their house is on fire. It's still better not to have your house on fire.

Saelune:
/

Thaluikhain:
/

I would really appreciate if he wasn't elected, he is a terrible idiot of a president, I'm just saying at least something hopefully good will come out of it. A lesson to people who think the votes don't matter.

tf2godz:

Saelune:
/

Thaluikhain:
/

I would really appreciate if he wasn't elected, he is a terrible idiot of a president, I'm just saying at least something hopefully good will come out of it. A lesson to people who think the votes don't matter.

Fair enough, but I see a lot of people seeing Trump being POTUS as a good thing (as in overall), not as something that has good things to be salvaged out of it.

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

aegix drakan:

Hot freakin' damn I like this guy, and this is the first I know of him.

He is... interesting. He also voted for Trump which, if you're in coal country, I guess made sense?

...so what is YOUR opinion of him exactly?

Cause if he voted for Trump, then I definitely do not like him, and it just makes me distrust him as a 'democrat'. Looking through his twitter, he is pandering to coal people. Seems to me he is a Republican in Democrat's clothing, something you seem to claim is most Democrats.

I would give him the benefit of a doubt, depending on how he addressed the issue. My dad voted for Bush Jr since he liked him as a governor and has regretted it ever since. Plus, trump is a pretty good example of what the right really is, so that could have been a good wakeup call for him. Also, if its a heavily red district then you can kinda only win with someone who is of the same mindset, which means having had belief in trump only to have it have been stamped out.

Saelune:
Coal miners are the poster child for 'I voted for someone who actively hurt me and I still don't care'

I will never forgive Trump voters.

So you are just going to let these entire communities rot because some people in there voted for a bad politician once? That is just absurd.

BreakfastMan:

Saelune:
Coal miners are the poster child for 'I voted for someone who actively hurt me and I still don't care'

I will never forgive Trump voters.

So you are just going to let these entire communities rot because some people in there voted for a bad politician once? That is just absurd.

So you are going to let the earth rot just because some people want to keep jobs that are unhealthy for everyone involved?

It is not because they voted for Trump that I want their way of life to fail. That they voted for someone to save their own asses even though they knew it would screw over tons of others is why I don't feel bad about it. Just as I do not feel bad for every single Nazi soldier who died in WW2. Sure, some of them 'did not hate Jews and were just defending their home' but their home wasn't in France or Poland or England and it was on the blood and bones of millions of innocent people.

Do not put it on me to feel bad as if I caused any of it. I didn't. I am just not going to feel guilty over people who are both environmentally bad and morally shallow getting punished for poor choices.

Plus I am a socialist who believes that the government should help its poor and needy, and I wish they had universal health care to help with their miner's cough, but oh, gee, guess what they all voted to destroy?

So excuse me if I feel a ton of schadenfreude over a punch of people who sunk their own damn ship while sinking other people's ships as well cause they though 'Hey maybe if their ship fills with enough water, we wont sink!'

I TRIED HELPING THEM AND THEY SAID NO.

Worgen:

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

He is... interesting. He also voted for Trump which, if you're in coal country, I guess made sense?

...so what is YOUR opinion of him exactly?

Cause if he voted for Trump, then I definitely do not like him, and it just makes me distrust him as a 'democrat'. Looking through his twitter, he is pandering to coal people. Seems to me he is a Republican in Democrat's clothing, something you seem to claim is most Democrats.

I would give him the benefit of a doubt, depending on how he addressed the issue. My dad voted for Bush Jr since he liked him as a governor and has regretted it ever since. Plus, trump is a pretty good example of what the right really is, so that could have been a good wakeup call for him. Also, if its a heavily red district then you can kinda only win with someone who is of the same mindset, which means having had belief in trump only to have it have been stamped out.

Look, if he votes left, then fine, but I am wary of him.

tf2godz:

Saelune:
/

Thaluikhain:
/

I would really appreciate if he wasn't elected, he is a terrible idiot of a president, I'm just saying at least something hopefully good will come out of it. A lesson to people who think the votes don't matter.

Well, try phrasing as making the best out of a bad situation. The way you said it did not sound that way. It really sucks that things have to go shitty before people care to fix things.

Saelune:

BreakfastMan:

Saelune:
Coal miners are the poster child for 'I voted for someone who actively hurt me and I still don't care'

I will never forgive Trump voters.

So you are just going to let these entire communities rot because some people in there voted for a bad politician once? That is just absurd.

So you are going to let the earth rot just because some people want to keep jobs that are unhealthy for everyone involved?

Where did I say that I wanted coal mining to continue? Because I am fairly certain I said the exact opposite.

Do not put it on me to feel bad as if I caused any of it. I didn't. I am just not going to feel guilty over people who are both environmentally bad and morally shallow getting punished for poor choices.

I am not trying to make you feel blame for these people's situations; rather, I want you to not dismiss their plight out of hand just because some (not even all, just some) members of the community voted for trump.

Plus I am a socialist who believes that the government should help its poor and needy, and I wish they had universal health care to help with their miner's cough, but oh, gee, guess what they all voted to destroy?

So? That doesn't make their plight any less valid. This is god-damn solidarity 101 here.

BreakfastMan:

Saelune:

BreakfastMan:

So you are just going to let these entire communities rot because some people in there voted for a bad politician once? That is just absurd.

So you are going to let the earth rot just because some people want to keep jobs that are unhealthy for everyone involved?

Where did I say that I wanted coal mining to continue? Because I am fairly certain I said the exact opposite.

Do not put it on me to feel bad as if I caused any of it. I didn't. I am just not going to feel guilty over people who are both environmentally bad and morally shallow getting punished for poor choices.

I am not trying to make you feel blame for these people's situations; rather, I want you to not dismiss their plight out of hand just because some (not even all, just some) members of the community voted for trump.

Plus I am a socialist who believes that the government should help its poor and needy, and I wish they had universal health care to help with their miner's cough, but oh, gee, guess what they all voted to destroy?

So? That doesn't make their plight any less valid. This is god-damn solidarity 101 here.

I am too busy caring about other people who deserve my empathy more. People who did not shoot themselves in the foot like they did. And again, even as I rant about them, ultimately, if I had my way, they would be helped, cause I am on the side that helps people, they cannot say the same.

Saelune:
Why are you willing to give this guy the benefit of the doubt but not Hillary? I honestly do not understand your line. Why aren't you complaining he is not left wing enough?

Because he's more left wing than the majority of Democrats already and he isn't paid for by our capitalist overlords? Because his agenda on campaign finance is consistent with wresting power out of the hands of our corporate oligarchy? I'm all about power to the people and as far as I can tell he actually represents his people. Why should I complain about some guy in another district? You're the one who is all about vote-shaming.

Saelune:

Worgen:

Saelune:
...so what is YOUR opinion of him exactly?

Cause if he voted for Trump, then I definitely do not like him, and it just makes me distrust him as a 'democrat'. Looking through his twitter, he is pandering to coal people. Seems to me he is a Republican in Democrat's clothing, something you seem to claim is most Democrats.

I would give him the benefit of a doubt, depending on how he addressed the issue. My dad voted for Bush Jr since he liked him as a governor and has regretted it ever since. Plus, trump is a pretty good example of what the right really is, so that could have been a good wakeup call for him. Also, if its a heavily red district then you can kinda only win with someone who is of the same mindset, which means having had belief in trump only to have it have been stamped out.

Look, if he votes left, then fine, but I am wary of him.

I wouldn't touch the guy if I was the DNC. Dude looks like half a Repub to me. If he wins, and votes for at least some liberal causes, good enough, but I wouldn't waste a single cent on his campaign.

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
Why are you willing to give this guy the benefit of the doubt but not Hillary? I honestly do not understand your line. Why aren't you complaining he is not left wing enough?

Because he's more left wing than the majority of Democrats already and he isn't paid for by our capitalist overlords? Because his agenda on campaign finance is consistent with wresting power out of the hands of our corporate oligarchy? I'm all about power to the people and as far as I can tell he actually represents his people. Why should I complain about some guy in another district? You're the one who is all about vote-shaming.

His platform is actually pretty similar to Clinton's. It's a mix of progressive social and economic policies paired with a hard-line stance on the military and national security.

Seriously, everything on his list is something you can also find on Clinton's. Wait, I take that back. Clinton didn't have marijuana legalisation on her list. But everything else, yeah, pretty much.

BreakfastMan:

Saelune:
Coal miners are the poster child for 'I voted for someone who actively hurt me and I still don't care'

I will never forgive Trump voters.

So you are just going to let these entire communities rot because some people in there voted for a bad politician once? That is just absurd.

"Let them rot" is a bit extreme. But there's no denying that West Virginians who voted for Trump essentially threw their votes in with a snake-oil salesman who promised them untold riches if they agreed to look the other way while he fucked over the Hispanics and gay people. Then, while they were looking the other way, he fucked them as well, because that's just what snake-oil salesmen are like; irredeemable fuckers.

It's a kind of Twilight Zone karmic twist; because West Virginians were callous and/or desperate enough to tolerate Trump's outrageous racism in exchange for promises of economic prosperity, the universe punished them with...well, with President Trump. That shit's probably unconstitutional.

Saelune:
When people keep complaining about Democrats not being left-wing enough, I think someone who claims to be a Democrat but voted Trump is the last person to be lax on.

All I can say is that I wouldn't have complained about Clinton as a candidate, and I'm willing to judge Ojeda on the same standard. You're never going to agree with someone 100% in politics; you just have to find what common ground you can.

I mean, I dislike the way people constantly complain about Democrats not being "left-wing enough" to deserve the votes of left-wing people. I think it's counterproductive to carry all that into the general; that shit is for the primaries. It's basically like saying "Oh, well you're pro-choice and pro-gun control and you want immigration reform and a fairer tax code and better collective bargaining for unions and reformed antitrust law, but you don't want to legalise marijuana, so you're not left-wing enough for me."

Ultimately, you take what you can get.

Saelune:

Medical knowledge advanced considerably after WW2 when the allies found all the results of the Nazis horrific experiments. I consider it making some good out of something bad, but I would never say it was worth it to let those people be tortured.

This is actually something of a myth, certainly an exaggeration. Many of their human experiments were very poorly conducted with inadequate controls, little focus, fraudulent data, or largely worthless simply by exploring nothing but ideological gibberish about the supposed racial superiority of Aryans.

There's a significant body of medical advances discovered by Germany during the Nazi regime, but relatively few through their abhorrent human experimentation program. I wouldn't call a lot of it "Nazi science" either. Germany had a perfectly good medical research tradition long before the Nazis took power which was hardly just going to stop the minute Hitler was elected. Without a specific reason to show that the research was dependent on Nazi patronage or policy, I see no particular reason to credit them.

Agema:

Saelune:

Medical knowledge advanced considerably after WW2 when the allies found all the results of the Nazis horrific experiments. I consider it making some good out of something bad, but I would never say it was worth it to let those people be tortured.

This is actually something of a myth, certainly an exaggeration. Many of their human experiments were very poorly conducted with inadequate controls, little focus, fraudulent data, or largely worthless simply by exploring nothing but ideological gibberish about the supposed racial superiority of Aryans.

There's a significant body of medical advances discovered by Germany during the Nazi regime, but relatively few through their abhorrent human experimentation program. I wouldn't call a lot of it "Nazi science" either. Germany had a perfectly good medical research tradition long before the Nazis took power which was hardly just going to stop the minute Hitler was elected. Without a specific reason to show that the research was dependent on Nazi patronage or policy, I see no particular reason to credit them.

Is it not the case that the Japanese research was more useful, though, or at least the US thought enough of it that they wanted the data and were willing to let how it was accumulated slide?

Saelune:
For one, most of them are apparently Trump supporters, and coal mining needs to go away. Look, I don't wish to see large swaths of people be left in the coal dust, but its easier to stomach knowing how easily they will throw everyone else under the bus.

The Democrats maybe didn't throw coal miners under a bus, but certainly made no effort to drag them out of the way of an oncoming bus. And so they forfeited their votes.

So it is in the UK. Countless post-industrial communities that would have voted Labour by a massive majority 30 years ago now no longer do. Their industry and communities might have initially collapsed under the Tories, but under Labour the rot continued. Labour was too busy glad-handing entrepreneurs, financiers and trendy metropolitan types, and left the old industrial heartlands to sink. If a party won't show loyalty to people, it shouldn't expect their loyalty in return.

And at worst, the party should expect a shocking and mighty slap round the chops, because few things hurt and enrage more than betrayal. Frankly, fuck any party that thinks it deserves votes just for existing. They'll only ever be lazy, corrupt, complacent, second rate parties.

Thaluikhain:
Is it not the case that the Japanese research was more useful, though, or at least the US thought enough of it that they wanted the data and were willing to let how it was accumulated slide?

I was just now reading the Wikipedia page for Unit 731 to see if that was the case, and while I dilly-dallied with worthless things like "fact-checking", you ninja'd my post!

But from my knowledge, only a small portion of Unit 731's research was actually kept by the Americans. They were mostly interested in their biological warfare experiments; not so much in the experiments where they infected people with syphilis and then vivisected them, or the ones where they froze people's arms and then hit them with a hammer, or the ones where they surgically attached the esophagus to the intestinal tract, or the ones where...

...hrm. I'll stop now.

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
Why are you willing to give this guy the benefit of the doubt but not Hillary? I honestly do not understand your line. Why aren't you complaining he is not left wing enough?

Because he's more left wing than the majority of Democrats already and he isn't paid for by our capitalist overlords? Because his agenda on campaign finance is consistent with wresting power out of the hands of our corporate oligarchy? I'm all about power to the people and as far as I can tell he actually represents his people. Why should I complain about some guy in another district? You're the one who is all about vote-shaming.

My problem is, for someone who claims to be left-wing, you seem to have more issue with the left-winger who opposed the right versus a guy who directly supported them!

You are more willing to support someone who directly supported Trump than Trump's literal opponent...

There is a major disconnect here. If your problem with democrats is them not being left-wing enough, why would you ok the guy who is objectively a right-wing Democrat?

bastardofmelbourne:

Saelune:
When people keep complaining about Democrats not being left-wing enough, I think someone who claims to be a Democrat but voted Trump is the last person to be lax on.

All I can say is that I wouldn't have complained about Clinton as a candidate, and I'm willing to judge Ojeda on the same standard. You're never going to agree with someone 100% in politics; you just have to find what common ground you can.

I mean, I dislike the way people constantly complain about Democrats not being "left-wing enough" to deserve the votes of left-wing people. I think it's counterproductive to carry all that into the general; that shit is for the primaries. It's basically like saying "Oh, well you're pro-choice and pro-gun control and you want immigration reform and a fairer tax code and better collective bargaining for unions and reformed antitrust law, but you don't want to legalise marijuana, so you're not left-wing enough for me."

Ultimately, you take what you can get.

Clinton literally did the most one can do to oppose Trump. This guy literally voted for Trump. And for all the people who like to lecture about how 'Democrats are not actually left-wing', seems supporting a definitely right-wing Democrat seems, well, somewhere between counter-productive to outright hypocritical.

-I- am willing to take what I can get and have I think pretty consistently argued in favor of that, but people who have condemned that view seem to not be holding up to it.

Agema:

Saelune:
For one, most of them are apparently Trump supporters, and coal mining needs to go away. Look, I don't wish to see large swaths of people be left in the coal dust, but its easier to stomach knowing how easily they will throw everyone else under the bus.

The Democrats maybe didn't throw coal miners under a bus, but certainly made no effort to drag them out of the way of an oncoming bus. And so they forfeited their votes.

So it is in the UK. Countless post-industrial communities that would have voted Labour by a massive majority 30 years ago now no longer do. Their industry and communities might have initially collapsed under the Tories, but under Labour the rot continued. Labour was too busy glad-handing entrepreneurs, financiers and trendy metropolitan types, and left the old industrial heartlands to sink. If a party won't show loyalty to people, it shouldn't expect their loyalty in return.

And at worst, the party should expect a shocking and mighty slap round the chops, because few things hurt and enrage more than betrayal. Frankly, fuck any party that thinks it deserves votes just for existing. They'll only ever be lazy, corrupt, complacent, second rate parties.

The path to true universal healthcare is through Democrats. Something that poor miners should really want, considering their job has tons of health issues and not a lot of money to fix it. They instead voted to abolish it. They practically are voting for their own deaths. All I can do is shrug and let them get what they asked for.

Agema:

Saelune:

Medical knowledge advanced considerably after WW2 when the allies found all the results of the Nazis horrific experiments. I consider it making some good out of something bad, but I would never say it was worth it to let those people be tortured.

This is actually something of a myth, certainly an exaggeration. Many of their human experiments were very poorly conducted with inadequate controls, little focus, fraudulent data, or largely worthless simply by exploring nothing but ideological gibberish about the supposed racial superiority of Aryans.

There's a significant body of medical advances discovered by Germany during the Nazi regime, but relatively few through their abhorrent human experimentation program. I wouldn't call a lot of it "Nazi science" either. Germany had a perfectly good medical research tradition long before the Nazis took power which was hardly just going to stop the minute Hitler was elected. Without a specific reason to show that the research was dependent on Nazi patronage or policy, I see no particular reason to credit them.

The point of my post was 'Salvaging a bad situation is not the same as a good situation' or basically, the ends in many cases do not justify the means.

Saelune:
Clinton literally did the most one can do to oppose Trump.

Except campaign in swing states. Or give people a reason to vote for her.

BreakfastMan:

Saelune:
Clinton literally did the most one can do to oppose Trump.

Except campaign in swing states. Or give people a reason to vote for her.

Your pot shots are not appreciated.

Saelune:

BreakfastMan:

Saelune:
Clinton literally did the most one can do to oppose Trump.

Except campaign in swing states. Or give people a reason to vote for her.

Your pot shots are not appreciated.

But not inaccurate.

It takes a special level of incompetence to lose to a reality tv star.

crimson5pheonix:

Saelune:

BreakfastMan:

Except campaign in swing states. Or give people a reason to vote for her.

Your pot shots are not appreciated.

But not inaccurate.

It takes a special level of incompetence to lose to a reality tv star.

That assumes that voters are rational creatures.

Like, realistically people would vote for the candidate with the best plan that would reasonably help the country. But reality is unrealistic and people are easily swayed by fake promises.

crimson5pheonix:

Saelune:

BreakfastMan:

Except campaign in swing states. Or give people a reason to vote for her.

Your pot shots are not appreciated.

But not inaccurate.

It takes a special level of incompetence to lose to a reality tv star.

While undeniably true, I think you have to also accept that it takes a very special country to elect a reality t.v. star.

And in case you were wandering; no, the view from up on my Brexit-ridden high horse is not very good at all, thank you.

undeadsuitor:

crimson5pheonix:

Saelune:
Your pot shots are not appreciated.

But not inaccurate.

It takes a special level of incompetence to lose to a reality tv star.

That assumes that voters are rational creatures.

Like, realistically people would vote for the candidate with the best plan that would reasonably help the country. But reality is unrealistic and people are easily swayed by fake promises.

First you would have to have a candidate that would reasonably help the country. That's apparently a hard hurdle to overcome. Mostly due to poor thinking from the political class.

ineptelephant:

crimson5pheonix:

Saelune:
Your pot shots are not appreciated.

But not inaccurate.

It takes a special level of incompetence to lose to a reality tv star.

While undeniably true, I think you have to also accept that it takes a very special country to elect a reality t.v. star.

And in case you were wandering; no, the view from up on my Brexit-ridden high horse is not very good at all, thank you.

For example a party could get what they wanted, then call an election to solidify their power and lose everything because they have no clue what's actually going on with the populace they're supposed to represent.

Or a country can successfully stave off their nationalist choice for the safe neolib candidate and end up with mandatory service again. Who knows?

Saelune:
My problem is, for someone who claims to be left-wing, you seem to have more issue with the left-winger who opposed the right versus a guy who directly supported them!

Is Hillary Clinton's militarism left wing? What about her support of right-wing Latin American coups? Her advocacy of bombing in countries various and sundry? Her involvement in liberating capital to flee the United States and exploit the Global South in order to deliver various commodities to the Imperial Core? Maybe it's her support of the Saudi Arabian Monarchy. Or her fierce representation of the interests of munitions suppliers in the many threads of her foreign policy. Her unquestioning support of Israel, perhaps? Perhaps Hillary Clinton's leftism is best exemplified by when she said that single-payer healthcare would never, ever happen? This is just scratching of the surface of what is, certainly, an unimpeachable radicalism.

undeadsuitor:

crimson5pheonix:

Saelune:
Your pot shots are not appreciated.

But not inaccurate.

It takes a special level of incompetence to lose to a reality tv star.

That assumes that voters are rational creatures.

Are you assuming that trump's win was inevitable? Because it wasn't. Bernie would have won, I think it is safe to say at this point. Hell, if Hillary had not decided to try to turn Texas purple and had actually campaigned in swing states, she probably would have won given how thin those margins were.

EDIT: Damn, crimson's out for blood tonight, folks.

crimson5pheonix:

For example a party could get what they wanted, then call an election to solidify their power and lose everything because they have no clue what's actually going on with the populace they're supposed to represent.

I firmly take the point, but as much as Obama did get two terms there isn't much about his presidency that you could call "as he would have wanted it". Exactly whose fault that is I wouldn't make a claim, but its fair to say that Obama was hamstrung by "compromise".

Or a country can successfully stave off their nationalist choice for the safe neolib candidate and end up with mandatory service again. Who knows?

Oh, come on. Clinton wasn't going to restart the draft. I'm not going to sit here and say that there is no possibility that she wouldn't have started a war to kill a lot of volunteers, but no Democrat is restarting the draft. Its about as likely as them enforcing all abortions to be done with coat-hangers.

ineptelephant:

crimson5pheonix:

For example a party could get what they wanted, then call an election to solidify their power and lose everything because they have no clue what's actually going on with the populace they're supposed to represent.

I firmly take the point, but as much as Obama did get two terms there isn't much about his presidency that you could call "as he would have wanted it". Exactly whose fault that is I wouldn't make a claim, but its fair to say that Obama was hamstrung by "compromise".

And it's exactly that why Democrats need to earn trust again. We already saw what happens if you elect Democrats purely because they are Democrats. You get nothing. They don't do anything unless they are actually left wing. Something Hillary wasn't. And she did nothing to earn trust with her campaign.

Or a country can successfully stave off their nationalist choice for the safe neolib candidate and end up with mandatory service again. Who knows?

Oh, come on. Clinton wasn't going to restart the draft. I'm not going to sit here and say that there is no possibility that she wouldn't have started a war to kill a lot of volunteers, but no Democrat is restarting the draft. Its about as likely as them enforcing all abortions to be done with coat-hangers.

I don't think she would have either, that was a joke aimed at Macron. The other neolib that HAD to be voted in to stop THE BAD PERSON from winning.

crimson5pheonix:

undeadsuitor:

crimson5pheonix:

But not inaccurate.

It takes a special level of incompetence to lose to a reality tv star.

That assumes that voters are rational creatures.

Like, realistically people would vote for the candidate with the best plan that would reasonably help the country. But reality is unrealistic and people are easily swayed by fake promises.

First you would have to have a candidate that would reasonably help the country. That's apparently a hard hurdle to overcome. Mostly due to poor thinking from the political class.

And just because the democrats didn't have a hail mary pass save everyone fix the country plan, doesn't mean the guy who ran on deporting brown people and rubbing coal on his balls suddenly seemed like a reasonable option.

The US election system is broken, and it has nothing to do with "well the democrats didn't put forth their best"

its been a long slow spiral towards being simply a popularity contest. Hell, even Obama was voted because he was more charming than the other guy. The Republicans just took it to it's logical extreme

crimson5pheonix:

Saelune:

BreakfastMan:

Except campaign in swing states. Or give people a reason to vote for her.

Your pot shots are not appreciated.

But not inaccurate.

It takes a special level of incompetence to lose to a reality tv star.

It takes slavery being appeased. The Electoral College is a remnant of pro-slavery policy. Trump won on slavery.

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
My problem is, for someone who claims to be left-wing, you seem to have more issue with the left-winger who opposed the right versus a guy who directly supported them!

Is Hillary Clinton's militarism left wing? What about her support of right-wing Latin American coups? Her advocacy of bombing in countries various and sundry? Her involvement in liberating capital to flee the United States and exploit the Global South in order to deliver various commodities to the Imperial Core? Maybe it's her support of the Saudi Arabian Monarchy. Or her fierce representation of the interests of munitions suppliers in the many threads of her foreign policy. Her unquestioning support of Israel, perhaps? Perhaps Hillary Clinton's leftism is best exemplified by when she said that single-payer healthcare would never, ever happen? This is just scratching of the surface of what is, certainly, an unimpeachable radicalism.

Uh huh, uh huh, yeah ok.

My rebuttle?

Donald Trump. If the final election was Hillary vs a different Democrat, you might have a point, but her opponent was Donald Trump. You might as well complain about how hot Florida is while stuck on the sun.

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