France brings back National Service

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So, in news that will probably slip under the radar:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44625625

The French government has introduced a plan to bring back national service for all 16 year olds.

It was an idea put forward by Emmanuel Macron in his presidential campaign, to promote a sense of civic duty and national unity among French youth.

The new national service will cover all 16 year olds, girls as well as boys, and will be divided into two distinct phases.

The irony is, if Trump did this the world would be up in arms. For some reason, despite his many incredibly right wing actions, Macron gets a pass...

(And for clarity, my position is ambivalence - a certain amount of some form of service can instil in people a sense of responsibility / duty to the community. It all depends on the implementation)

Catnip1024:
The irony is, if Trump did this the world would be up in arms. For some reason, despite his many incredibly right wing actions, Macron gets a pass...

A pass from who exactly? I'm not in favor of this.

Oh but don't let me get in the way of you projecting.

erttheking:
A pass from who exactly? I'm not in favor of this.

Oh but don't let me get in the way of you projecting.

You won't see any widescale international outcry, or even interest. Much in the same way that cutting the rights of workers and preventing foreign acquisition of businesses on national security grounds passed the world by.

Macron was the lesser of two Nazis evils. Mainstream media doesn't criticize him much because he's anti-worker.

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
A pass from who exactly? I'm not in favor of this.

Oh but don't let me get in the way of you projecting.

You won't see any widescale international outcry, or even interest. Much in the same way that cutting the rights of workers and preventing foreign acquisition of businesses on national security grounds passed the world by.

Well, the lesson to be learned here is that it's a golden time to be an asshole when there's a bigger even louder asshole distracting anyone.

What point are you trying to make exactly?

image

I mean, that Macron is a hardcore conservative is old news.

It sounds like they'll be able to do volunteering instead of working in the army, so this is more akin to a special school semester were you have to do practical work.

Not a fan at all, mostly a waste of time an money. At the same time school are mostly about wasting time and money in a glorified kindergarden so won't be much difference.

Catnip1024:
snip

They might give the outcry if Macron was wagging his dick on twitter all the day about it. Added to that, it seems the USA-dominated news media cares more about USA news. Who knew?

Catnip1024:
The irony is, if Trump did this the world would be up in arms. For some reason, despite his many incredibly right wing actions, Macron gets a pass...

(And for clarity, my position is ambivalence - a certain amount of some form of service can instil in people a sense of responsibility / duty to the community. It all depends on the implementation)

To be fair, I (as I assume a bunch of others) didn't hear about this until you mentioned it. I'm currently freaking out that Justice Anthony Kennedy is retiring and Trump will slap another sycophant in to flush this country further into the quagmire.

I think it's a stupid idea. If merely doing something would be able to actually change minds, any one of the millions of times US interest fooled around with the Middle East (say, installing puppet governments) would have stuck.

If anything, it normally has the adverse affect. Creating more enemies to your cause than sympathizers.

Catnip1024:
The irony is, if Trump did this the world would be up in arms. For some reason, despite his many incredibly right wing actions, Macron gets a pass...

Not from me.

Fuck conscription of any kind, I don't even care that the only mandatory part is some sort of one month volunteer "civic culture" thing. As a "technical pacifist" I oppose this on principle.

The only reason any of his stuff "gets a pass" from me is because I don't hear any of it. Just about every scrap of news I find focuses purely on the US.

A pretty bad idea when it's mostly military related. I think the part about teaching and charity work could have potential, but the way this is being presented it sounds like military service is the main focus. I'm open to the idea of a more civilian type of national service in teaching or healthcare, partly because both are undermanned in most european countries and gaining work experience can be pretty hard for students and young people, however i also believe people should have a choice in how to structure their own education

As much as I think modern youth could benefit from a sense of duty whether towards society or the family, I don't think it's fostered by forcing them to do this kind of service. Creating a sense of responsibility in anything is really more about your attitude when engaging in such service, and that can't be taught. If you are just doing it because you are legally required to do it, then there's not much benefit.

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
A pass from who exactly? I'm not in favor of this.

Oh but don't let me get in the way of you projecting.

You won't see any widescale international outcry, or even interest. Much in the same way that cutting the rights of workers and preventing foreign acquisition of businesses on national security grounds passed the world by.

The US and France are different countries.

I do not support mandatory military service. I hope the French people fight this.

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
A pass from who exactly? I'm not in favor of this.

Oh but don't let me get in the way of you projecting.

You won't see any widescale international outcry, or even interest. Much in the same way that cutting the rights of workers and preventing foreign acquisition of businesses on national security grounds passed the world by.

You cut the workers rights but give them new jobs. Smart plan (sarcasm)

On a scale of one to nuclear war, this is about a 3. Personally the US border and Supreme Court decision is about a 6. So many consecutive decision that erase rights or force people to do things.

Still doesn't make it acceptable. I do wonder if France is worried about war in light of the possible break up of the EU.

A waste of time and money. If mandatory military service was a good thing, most countries wouldn't have ended it and their adults wouldn't have turned out to be assholes who eventually ruined their country. I mean, it's not going to ruin anyone's life and some people might actually enjoy the experience, but it's still a massive waste of time and resources. If you want to teach kids some important real life skills, introduce first aid and shit like that in schools.

Meiam:
It sounds like they'll be able to do volunteering instead of working in the army, so this is more akin to a special school semester were you have to do practical work.

Not a fan at all, mostly a waste of time an money. At the same time school are mostly about wasting time and money in a glorified kindergarden so won't be much difference.

Yes, many schools participate in " community service" work in high school in the US already. Basically, communities often use this as a way to get free labor in exchange for giving students " recommendations" to help them receive grants and scholarships.

I disagree in anything being mandatory, however, as I do not believe people should be forced into such things.

I find myself in agreement with most of the posters in the forum on this topic. I disfavor civilian service being mandatory, but I'm entirely in favor of providing more opportunities for those who are interested in volunteer work.

This is dumb.

I can get behind a national service that was orientated to government work programme. Study mechanics, ecological restoration (planting trees and pest control, mostly), fire service, aged care services, etc. Something along those lines. I'm a big believer in learning by doing, and social consciousness through exposure. Giving kids a decent insight into trade skills, charity works, and community risk aversion and work ethic for once they leave school and participate in the larger social fabric...

...But a 1 month run down of military life?

Okay, so they'll learn decent uniform maintenance and parade dress over a weekend, decent drill in a week, do some marching and fitness elevation exercises, and that will be about it.

Total gain to the state? Zero.

It might even lower total readiness of the military... Not only that it's insulting. You're asking people who are paid to transform useless recruits into soldiers. Not some underaged brats and telling them to polish their boots and to suck in that gut for a month. I suppose they might be able to draw some instructors from retired soldiery, but if they're expecting currently serving personnel to do it they have better things to do with their time.

The military is there to stomp on the enemy's throat, not babysit.

Catnip1024:
So, in news that will probably slip under the radar:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44625625

The French government has introduced a plan to bring back national service for all 16 year olds.

It was an idea put forward by Emmanuel Macron in his presidential campaign, to promote a sense of civic duty and national unity among French youth.

The new national service will cover all 16 year olds, girls as well as boys, and will be divided into two distinct phases.

The irony is, if Trump did this the world would be up in arms. For some reason, despite his many incredibly right wing actions, Macron gets a pass...

(And for clarity, my position is ambivalence - a certain amount of some form of service can instil in people a sense of responsibility / duty to the community. It all depends on the implementation)

I wouldn't be surprised at all if trump would try something like this assuming the republicans somehow manage to fool the american people enough to stay in power in the house and senate. He does want to boost recruitment this year by 80 thousand solders which probably wont happen since unemployment is pretty low at the moment.

Lil devils x:
I disagree in anything being mandatory, however, as I do not believe people should be forced into such things.

What about school?

Blood Brain Barrier:

Lil devils x:
I disagree in anything being mandatory, however, as I do not believe people should be forced into such things.

What about school?

They have choices with the school they go to. The US not allowing private schools until the Carter system does limit your choice. I see that as a bad thing. Plus the public system needs competition to drive up performance.

My country has an earn or learn policy where you have to be in some sort of school (including with the Armed Forces) or earning a wage (usually some sort of apprenticeship) before your 18. It still is some enforcement but some flexibility.

But I don't deny that it mandatory. Should under 18s be treated differently than adults? Yeah probably.

National service isn't that weird in mainland Europe, and often isn't seen as explicitly "right wing" in quite the same way as in the US. Quite a few countries do it, although most do so out of historical tradition or genuine security concern. Sweden, for example, has reintroduced national service, but will draft only a selected proportion of its population for a year, it's a measure to supplement the size of the army. Switzerland never stopped doing national service, but does so to fill out the national reserve, the body of citizens eligible for conscription and again, a vital part of the Swiss army. Generally, the idea that getting a bunch of teenagers to do stuff they don't want to do and which has no practical purpose will promote civic cohesion or a sense of duty is rather fantastic, and illustrates a very poor grasp of what people are like.

However, France is a deeply segregated society. Ghettoization and popular racism have led to ethnic divisions which are deep and consistent. In many ways, I can see one possible benefit in national service forcing very different people to work and live together in a "neutral" environment. The trouble is, I don't really think the armed forces are a neutral environment in that sense, and the system will probably become a means of state-sanctioned bullying (not just for ethnic minorities, but for LGBT people, the disabled and anyone else who doesn't fit in). So even there, I don't think it's going to have a positive effect on most people.

Ultimately, national service has become a bit of a fantasy for older men who went through it and, over the years, have blocked out how generally fucking horrible it was, have come to associate it with the "good old days" when there were no social problems and ultimately have concluded that this was due to national service itself. The problem is that the good old days never existed, there were always social problems. If there were any benefits to national service, then it came from the fact that such service was (or at least felt) necessary. The fact that Switzerland or the Scandinavian countries depend on national service for military readiness means that recruits are aware and are generally made to feel that they are doing something important. They are also given choices and generally treated with respect throughout the process. France doesn't need national service, it won't accomplish anything important and its main goal is explicitly psychosocial engineering of a "problem" group, which isn't going to work because anyone can see through it.

So they'll have an army...that'll never win a war?

Too soon?
Too American?

Lil devils x:
Yes, many schools participate in " community service" work in high school in the US already. Basically, communities often use this as a way to get free labor in exchange for giving students " recommendations" to help them receive grants and scholarships.

I disagree in anything being mandatory, however, as I do not believe people should be forced into such things.

To be fair, even the lousy work experience placements give kids an insight into the world of work. Possibly terrible, demotivating insights, but there you go...

I mean, what the hell happened to just making kids do a hundred hours of community service before they can graduate high school? Isn't that enough?

Anyway, I live in a country that (somewhat understandably) has two years manditory military service all males must do before the age of 30 and I can tell you, I've yet to meet a single one who has enjoyed it or looks forward to doing it. Everyone sort of views it with a sense of looming dread and just prays they don't end up at the DMZ. No idea if France will be the same but I do wonder what the genuine point of this all is.

France was Nazi's bitch. This is bad cause it just means that the 4th Reich will have more conscripts. Macron should do more to oppose Trump. Trump ogled your wife dude, defend her, defend yourself, defend common fucking decency dude.

Surprisingly, I am not that bothered by the concept of national service. I wouldn't say that I support it, although if we expand "national service" to include things other than teaching people how to march and clean a gun, I could get behind it. If you're talking mass conscription during wartime, I oppose it.

But national service during peacetime is...fine, really. Spend a month living in a boot camp exercising and being shouted at. When I was a kid, we called that "Jamboree." (I'm kidding. Jamboree had doughnut stands and candy floss; it was more like a big festival.)

Shit, maybe that's why I'm not bothered by it. Was I brainwashed by the post-mortem machinations of Baden-Powell?

BE PREPAAAAAARED

bastardofmelbourne:
Surprisingly, I am not that bothered by the concept of national service. I wouldn't say that I support it, although if we expand "national service" to include things other than teaching people how to march and clean a gun, I could get behind it. If you're talking mass conscription during wartime, I oppose it.

But national service during peacetime is...fine, really. Spend a month living in a boot camp exercising and being shouted at. When I was a kid, we called that "Jamboree." (I'm kidding. Jamboree had doughnut stands and candy floss; it was more like a big festival.)

Shit, maybe that's why I'm not bothered by it. Was I brainwashed by the post-mortem machinations of Baden-Powell?

BE PREPAAAAAARED

The less work a government has to do to maintain a military, the less restrained they will have to be.

I wonder if the Israel-Palestine war would be as on-going if military service was voluntary.

bastardofmelbourne:
Was I brainwashed by the post-mortem machinations of Baden-Powell?

That was literally what he was trying to do, mind.

More on-topic...I can imagine France looking at Russia, looking at the US and then looking to increase the strength of its military. Conscription has historically been used by the French, but it'd hardly be my first choice of things to try.

Thaluikhain:

bastardofmelbourne:
Was I brainwashed by the post-mortem machinations of Baden-Powell?

That was literally what he was trying to do, mind.

Nonsense. On There's my nothing honour unusual I about promise child to soldiers do surrendering my their best physical To agency do to my the duty militant to imperial my national God authority and as the embodied Queen by of the Australia Queen.

Everybody does it.

I despise the idea of mandatory national service. It would engender in me not loyalty, but resentment towards an institution that sees fit to take my time away from me for the sole purpose of trying to change my priorities. It's not only coldly restrictive and narrow-minded, but wholly counter-productive in what it sets out to do.

If a government wants to engender actual loyalty, then it should provide wider investment for volunteering opportunities. You know; indicating that the government gives as much of a shit about the community as it wants its youth to.

Silvanus:
I despise the idea of mandatory national service. It would engender in me not loyalty, but resentment towards an institution that sees fit to take my time away from me for the sole purpose of trying to change my priorities. It's not only coldly restrictive and narrow-minded, but wholly counter-productive in what it sets out to do.

If a government wants to engender actual loyalty, then it should provide wider investment for volunteering opportunities. You know; indicating that the government gives as much of a shit about the community as it wants its youth to.

Overall I agree with this poster.
Everything about a forced mandatory military brainwashing clashes with me.

That said. I'm still torn. If only volunteers were allowed, then only the most nationalistic and gung-ho would apply.
Apply to Defend that nation. You may still like your nation, but wouldn't want, or isn't built/cut-out for military action.
Without the brainwashing, the risk is that one would train up future enemies.

I skipped my country's draft. Legally. They were already cutting down on our military (now they're building it up again..A tiny bit anyway) and I just explained how I wouldn't be a good fit, so I was exempted.

Seems like a decent idea depending on how's it's implemented. Getting people together from different backgrounds and having them interact and become familiar with each other can only help bring a nation closer together by aligning values.

A bit of military time would be good for most provided it teaches physical fitness and discipline and isn't just mindless propaganda.

bastardofmelbourne:

Shit, maybe that's why I'm not bothered by it. Was I brainwashed by the post-mortem machinations of Baden-Powell?

BE PREPAAAAAARED

It's a psychosocial phenomena known as the 'Overton Window'.

What I like to call 'Squeakiest Wheel syndrome'.

Basically, let's say you have the PotUS saying we should have carpet bans against entire nation's people and the otherwise rightful mobility at ports. Say it enough times and get the public to internalize the message.

Suddenly the fringe answer to that is; "Wait, do we really need to have carpet bans and our overinflated immigration departments, security and intelligence communities as they are? The Cold War is over, and the most predominant form of terrorism is and will always be domestic..."

Which is (would be) a fair enough non-fringe answer under any presidency of the past (response to the Patriot Act, for example). But now suddenly that becomes fringe. Idiots take that message and start superimposing it as if some massive 'leftist' conspiracy irrespective of who actually says it.

See also the hypocrisy of Republicans screaming for 'small government', and then suddenly wanting to turn ICE into the size of an army. Hell, it's only been a handful of years when the TSA was considered a massive violation of public trust in government. But now all is silent on that front...

How about stories of the government secretly putting innocent U.S. citizens on no fly lists? All silent on that front. How about the U.S. instituting no fly lists on people outside the country but might come within 200 kilometres of U.S. airspace? All silent on that front. Only a handful of years ago these were big stories of government overreach. But because no one in the public eye decided to talk about it, because no publi cofficials were willing to publicly address it and engender the discussion as having national significance, it disappeared.

Another example in Australian political discourse is 'boat people' ... for which make up only a fraction of our total illegal immigration. But now both """sides""" of the two houses run the rhetoric of it.

The scary thing is that unless politicians actually choose to makean aspect of something up for political discussion, and depending on the intial rhetoric employed to do so, extreme views become moderate positions even if metaphysically incongruent to the moral philosophy behind it.

Politicians were, at one point, at least beholden to an idea of 'euphemisms' to hide what were obviously unsubstantiated opinions when compared to their espoused ethical compass ... racial profiling and illegal detention becomes 'hard on crime' and 'justice'. When it gets to the point youhavea greater percentage of your populace in jails than Duterte maybe you're about as "hard" on "crime" as you can possibly be and it's not helping.

I would hope that in 70 years time historians will look at U.S. correctional systems, of prison labour and slavery, in the same way as Stalin's gulags ('resetting the Overton window'). Because ethically, numerically, statistically they are no different. A Shetland and a Dartmoor are both ponies regardless of when or where. Moreover, the gulag system ended predominantly as the last of the German POWs were released and total numbers in the work camps fell beneath what was economically viable to run inthe first place.

People attribute to Khrushchev erroneously what was happening before him, regardless.

So congratulations U.S. ... you made the gulag system somehow more beneficial to wealth generation of your richest people than the Soviets managed to make indentured labour as beneficial to their economy as a whole ... hooray?

Tanis:
So they'll have an army...that'll never win a war?

Too soon?
Too American?

Aren't those the same thing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War

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