Ice investigators call for the dismantling of ICE, ICE wants to be separated from family detention.

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WolvDragon:

Saelune:

erttheking:
Just throwing it out there, ICE is confiscating religious items from the immigrants and throwing them in the trash. Because I think they're TRYING to get people to compare them to Nazis now.

https://www.americamagazine.org/arts-culture/2018/06/26/why-janitor-saved-rosaries-confiscated-mexican-border

Oh, and a one year old was put in court. Alone.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/08/627082032/1-year-old-shows-up-in-immigration-court

And people still support everything that's going on at the border.

Ya know, might help to stress that Mexicans tend to be Christian. If US Christians have such a persecution complex, they might want to stop persecuting themselves?

Mexicans are catholic, which isn't the same as being a U.S. christian.

Catholics are a type of Christian. And they love Jesus just the same.

Zontar:
You're forgetting one very important fact, embassies and consulates are treated as territory, which is why it's actually the norm in many places for embassies to be where people apply. A perfect example is my own country, who take a significant number of our asylum claims at our embassies.

If that was true then there would not need to be a distinction between refugee and asylum. Canada is not the US.

Saelune:
Snip

Someone should've told Americans that when the Irish first started showing up.

erttheking:

So stop telling me "oh well X and Y would be safer" because it's pretty clear you don't give a rat's ass about the safety of these people regardless of who they are.

I can legitimately say the same for people like you and Thrax given you actively support these people pointlessly putting their lives and the lives of their children at risk for absolutely no benefit whatsoever on what is at best flimsy grounds and at worst downright morally repugnant ones.

If I actually do the irrational thing and assume you both are telling me the truth, the only conclusion I can make is that America is morally in the wrong for allowing an impossible to justify status quo exist on its borders without intervention, that is the only sound course of action if you both are correct.

erttheking:

Saelune:
Snip

Someone should've told Americans that when the Irish first started showing up.

Well, that was back when they had the luxury of hating other white people, but now with us lefties pushing to treat non-whites as humans, they cant do that as much anymore.

erttheking:

Zontar:
Snip

Ok. Zontar? Can you please stop implying how you want a Greater American Co Prosperity Sphere? I'm starting to get a little freaked out by the fact that you seem to want the United States to take over all of North America and then some of South America.

I only want it to take over Canada, you and Thrax are the ones pointing out that the situation in Mexico demands intervention.

Dr. Thrax:

Crossing the border illegally and applying for asylum takes less time than it does to make a refugee application, which can take years, and if some of these people are spotted at US embassies, their lives could be in even greater danger.

Crossing the border legally takes less time then doing it illegally, and is far lest risky in literally every way. And there's nothing stopping someone from crossing over for a day trip, then making a claim. So no, the argument still doesn't hold any weight.

Zontar:
I can legitimately say the same for people like you and Thrax given you actively support these people pointlessly putting their lives and the lives of their children at risk for absolutely no benefit whatsoever

Who are you to claim there's no benefit?

You're making a broad sweeping claim that there is no possible reason people would want to do this, and yet people have already given you reasons. Gangs, poverty, violence, drugs. These people do this to seek what they perceive to be safety and a possibility of a better life.

Zontar:

Crossing the border legally takes less time then doing it illegally, and is far lest risky in literally every way. And there's nothing stopping someone from crossing over for a day trip, then making a claim. So no, the argument still doesn't hold any weight.

If they have no visa or papers allowing them into the US, they can't enter legally. So your argument doesn't hold weight either.

Saelune:

erttheking:

Saelune:
Snip

Someone should've told Americans that when the Irish first started showing up.

Well, that was back when they had the luxury of hating other white people, but now with us lefties pushing to treat non-whites as humans, they cant do that as much anymore.

I've never seen a white person who was more racist against a minority then a leftist who found a right leaning one. But that's just me... and a lot of other white people... and quite a few minorities.

Zontar:

Saelune:

erttheking:

Someone should've told Americans that when the Irish first started showing up.

Well, that was back when they had the luxury of hating other white people, but now with us lefties pushing to treat non-whites as humans, they cant do that as much anymore.

I've never seen a white person who was more racist against a minority then a leftist who found a right leaning one. But that's just me... and a lot of other white people... and quite a few minorities.

That's just not true though.

Zontar:

erttheking:

So stop telling me "oh well X and Y would be safer" because it's pretty clear you don't give a rat's ass about the safety of these people regardless of who they are.

I can legitimately say the same for people like you and Thrax given you actively support these people pointlessly putting their lives and the lives of their children at risk for absolutely no benefit whatsoever on what is at best flimsy grounds and at worst downright morally repugnant ones.

If I actually do the irrational thing and assume you both are telling me the truth, the only conclusion I can make is that America is morally in the wrong for allowing an impossible to justify status quo exist on its borders without intervention, that is the only sound course of action if you both are correct.

Why is it that so many people on this website love throwing around false dilemmas? So it's either Thrax and I want these people to all die, or we need to invade Mexico. First of all, I don't know why you want the Greater American Co Propserity Sphere so much, but considering how badly America has handled it's last few foreign conflicts, I can promise you that whatever fantasies you have of America invading Mexico will lead to people crossing the border looking for safety increasing tenfold. Because, funny thing, Americans dropping bombs on countries tends to displace millions of people. Not all of them though, hundreds of thousands of civilians never consider leaving after the bombs have been dropped. Because they're dead. Solid plan you have there. Stop Mexicans coming to America to seek asylum by killing a bunch and giving the rest even more reason to flee their country?

And you love to go on and on and on about how dangerous it is to head for the border, can you please tell me what the fatality rate is? (And for someone who apparently cares so much about these people, you certainly are gung ho about kicking them back to the other side. I thought it was dangerous and you cared about them?)

And once a-fucking-gain, you only respond to a third of my argument. Can I ask why? Please respond to this, I have no intention of continuing this conversation without a reply to this specific point. If you ignore it, expect my next response to just be me repeating this last point.

Zontar:

erttheking:

Zontar:
Snip

Ok. Zontar? Can you please stop implying how you want a Greater American Co Prosperity Sphere? I'm starting to get a little freaked out by the fact that you seem to want the United States to take over all of North America and then some of South America.

I only want it to take over Canada, you and Thrax are the ones pointing out that the situation in Mexico demands intervention.

You made that up in order to fit it into your Greater American Co Prosperity Dream, don't stuff your fantasies into my mouth and act like they were my idea. Don't accuse me of saying something when it seems to be clear that you just want the American Empire for reasons I can't fathom.

Dr. Thrax:

Who are you to claim there's no benefit?

Because objectively speaking there is none. Massive increases in risk with absolutely no change in reward is not a smart deal, it's a horrible one.

You're making a broad sweeping claim that there is no possible reason people would want to do this, and yet people have already given you reasons. Gangs, poverty, violence, drugs. These people do this to seek what they perceive to be safety and a possibility of a better life.

That isn't reasons for crossing the border illegally, those are reasons for seeking asylum. Those aren't interchangeable, you not only don't need to illegally cross the border to seek asylum, in the case of the US it's unjustifiable more dangerous.

Dr. Thrax:

If they have no visa or papers allowing them into the US, they can't enter legally. So your argument doesn't hold weight either.

Given how the US is and for some time has accepted asylum requests right at the border with Mexico, not really. But then not many people know this because those illegally crossing the border claiming asylum on the scale that's happening is a new phenomenon.

But then again, all this does go back to the original point that, if things are really as bad as you say they are, it's morally wrong to sit by and allow it to continue, and the only moral course of action is intervention as soon as possible. Now I have to go to sleep, got work in the morning.

Saelune:

Zontar:

Saelune:
Well, that was back when they had the luxury of hating other white people, but now with us lefties pushing to treat non-whites as humans, they cant do that as much anymore.

I've never seen a white person who was more racist against a minority then a leftist who found a right leaning one. But that's just me... and a lot of other white people... and quite a few minorities.

That's just not true though.

Except it is, and there's nothing you can say that will change that fact.

Zontar:

Saelune:

Zontar:

I've never seen a white person who was more racist against a minority then a leftist who found a right leaning one. But that's just me... and a lot of other white people... and quite a few minorities.

That's just not true though.

Except it is, and there's nothing you can say that will change that fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylann_Roof

Zontar:
Because objectively speaking there is none. Massive increases in risk with absolutely no change in reward is not a smart deal, it's a horrible one.

image
I need to have this bookmarked just for you.

You cannot claim objectivity in something that is inherently subjective to each person's situation and reasons for seeking asylum, whether they cross the border illegally or not.

That isn't reasons for crossing the border illegally, those are reasons for seeking asylum. Those aren't interchangeable, you not only don't need to illegally cross the border to seek asylum, in the case of the US it's unjustifiable more dangerous.

They're linked. To escape violence, the fastest way is whatever is the most direct that gets you in, which is bypassing ports of entry and then either go into hiding, find any family they may have in the country, and/or seek out a place to make your asylum claim. They could just simply be turned away at ports of entry, which is what's happening now. They also know that they can still claim asylum even after entering illegally.

But then not many people know this because those illegally crossing the border claiming asylum on the scale that's happening is a new phenomenon.

image

But then again, all this does go back to the original point that, if things are really as bad as you say they are, it's morally wrong to sit by and allow it to continue, and the only moral course of action is intervention as soon as possible.

It's not the US' job to be the global moral police, especially since we aren't the bastion of goodness and freedom we like to claim we are. Your sense of morality is way off if you're effectively saying we should just invade them and clean the place up, now we'll get to gentrify all their neighborhoods as well as the black neighborhoods. Once we move all those pesky bodies out of the way, make Mexico an unincorporated territory, don't actually rebuild the nation once we've wrecked it to shit, deal with the political backlash for invading another country on flimsy grounds, and let Mexico get fucked over just like our other territories. By your logic we should be busting Saudi Arabia's and Israel's doors down because holy human rights violations, Batman!

Go USA! /sarcasm

Zontar:
Except it is, and there's nothing you can say that will change that fact.

image
You make the claim, time to back it up, Zontar.
Where are these "facts" of yours?

Dr. Thrax:

You make the claim, time to back it up, Zontar.
Where are these "facts" of yours?

You remember that time Randy Marsh said to an audience of black people that they had no idea how it felt to be labeled when people started calling him nigger guy?

That's the stance Zontar is taking with that point.

Saelune:

Zontar:

Saelune:
Well, that was back when they had the luxury of hating other white people, but now with us lefties pushing to treat non-whites as humans, they cant do that as much anymore.

I've never seen a white person who was more racist against a minority then a leftist who found a right leaning one. But that's just me... and a lot of other white people... and quite a few minorities.

That's just not true though.

But it is true. I seen leftist being racists againt right leaning minorities!

WolvDragon:

Saelune:

Zontar:

I've never seen a white person who was more racist against a minority then a leftist who found a right leaning one. But that's just me... and a lot of other white people... and quite a few minorities.

That's just not true though.

But it is true. I seen leftist being racists againt right leaning minorities!

So you agree with Zontar then?

WolvDragon:
But it is true. I seen leftist being racists againt right leaning minorities!

Is it racism or is it confusion at professing to be part of an ideology or affiliation with a political group that does its absolute best to screw that very same minority over?

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

Saelune:
That's just not true though.

But it is true. I seen leftist being racists againt right leaning minorities!

So you agree with Zontar then?

On this one yes.

Dr. Thrax:

WolvDragon:
But it is true. I seen leftist being racists againt right leaning minorities!

Is it racism or is it confusion at professing to be part of an ideology or affiliation with a political group that does its absolute best to screw that very same minority over?

I seen some dumb racists leftist in my lifetime, they exist, they're few in number, but they exist. Let's not pretend that the right only has racists.

WolvDragon:

Dr. Thrax:

WolvDragon:
But it is true. I seen leftist being racists againt right leaning minorities!

Is it racism or is it confusion at professing to be part of an ideology or affiliation with a political group that does its absolute best to screw that very same minority over?

I seen some dumb racists leftist in my lifetime, they exist, they're few in number, but they exist. Let's not pretend that the right only has racists.

See, you're missing Zontar's intent as well as mine and Thrax. Zontar is trying to claim that the left is the racist side and that the right is not. A majority of right-wingers are racist. Many right-wing views are inherently bigoted. Are there left-wing bigots? Sure. But they are not the majority, and really, they are missing their own point. But hey, if someone wants to hate black people, but work to protect black people's rights, that's better than someone who 'is not racist' but puts racists in power to enforce racist policies.

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

Dr. Thrax:

Is it racism or is it confusion at professing to be part of an ideology or affiliation with a political group that does its absolute best to screw that very same minority over?

I seen some dumb racists leftist in my lifetime, they exist, they're few in number, but they exist. Let's not pretend that the right only has racists.

See, you're missing Zontar's intent as well as mine and Thrax. Zontar is trying to claim that the left is the racist side and that the right is not. A majority of right-wingers are racist. Many right-wing views are inherently bigoted. Are there left-wing bigots? Sure. But they are not the majority, and really, they are missing their own point. But hey, if someone wants to hate black people, but work to protect black people's rights, that's better than someone who 'is not racist' but puts racists in power to enforce racist policies.

There you go again with the generalizations.

WolvDragon:
I seen some dumb racists leftist in my lifetime, they exist, they're few in number, but they exist. Let's not pretend that the right only has racists.

I'm not trying to pretend they don't exist, but there are many leftists - myself included - who simply don't understand how various minorities can support groups or claim to be part of ideologies that are currently being used to harm these same minorities. LGBT+ GOP supporters is the easiest example of this. The GOP is anti-LGBT+, full stop. The RNC's 2016 platform was even considered the most anti-LGBT+ platform in history, yet many gay people still threw their hats in the GOP's ring despite their overt intent to discriminate against these same people.

WolvDragon:

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

I seen some dumb racists leftist in my lifetime, they exist, they're few in number, but they exist. Let's not pretend that the right only has racists.

See, you're missing Zontar's intent as well as mine and Thrax. Zontar is trying to claim that the left is the racist side and that the right is not. A majority of right-wingers are racist. Many right-wing views are inherently bigoted. Are there left-wing bigots? Sure. But they are not the majority, and really, they are missing their own point. But hey, if someone wants to hate black people, but work to protect black people's rights, that's better than someone who 'is not racist' but puts racists in power to enforce racist policies.

There you go again with the generalizations.

And its ok when Zontar does it?

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

Saelune:
See, you're missing Zontar's intent as well as mine and Thrax. Zontar is trying to claim that the left is the racist side and that the right is not. A majority of right-wingers are racist. Many right-wing views are inherently bigoted. Are there left-wing bigots? Sure. But they are not the majority, and really, they are missing their own point. But hey, if someone wants to hate black people, but work to protect black people's rights, that's better than someone who 'is not racist' but puts racists in power to enforce racist policies.

There you go again with the generalizations.

And its ok when Zontar does it?

I never said it was okay when he does it, I only point out that there are indeed racist lefties.

WolvDragon:

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

There you go again with the generalizations.

And its ok when Zontar does it?

I never said it was okay when he does it, I only point out that there are indeed racist lefties.

That's not what Zontar was doing.

Dr. Thrax:

WolvDragon:
I seen some dumb racists leftist in my lifetime, they exist, they're few in number, but they exist. Let's not pretend that the right only has racists.

I'm not trying to pretend they don't exist, but there are many leftists - myself included - who simply don't understand how various minorities can support groups or claim to be part of ideologies that are currently being used to harm these same minorities. LGBT+ GOP supporters is the easiest example of this. The GOP is anti-LGBT+, full stop. The RNC's 2016 platform was even considered the most anti-LGBT+ platform in history, yet many gay people still threw their hats in the GOP's ring despite their overt intent to discriminate against these same people.

Maybe because they actually believe in some of the views of small government and fiscal responsibility of the GOP? (Which we know is bullshit). Like I said to Saelune, just because you support an organization or party, you don't 100 support their platform.

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

Saelune:
And its ok when Zontar does it?

I never said it was okay when he does it, I only point out that there are indeed racist lefties.

That's not what Zontar was doing.

You still generalize right wingers and you admitted as such.

WolvDragon:
Like I said to Saelune, just because you support an organization or party, you don't 100 support their platform.

While that's true, you have to call into question why someone would put their support behind a group that makes it explicit that they're going to curb your rights and/or discriminate against you. While it doesn't mean you support everything that group or individual does, when you still back them - either financially, with your vote, or with your own time - you have to admit that your support has made all of their positions that much stronger, including the ones you disagree with.

Okay people, let's keep it classy, on topic, and stop the passive aggressive posting, okay?

I will hand out infractions and close the thread if this is ignored.

Why do they have any responsibility to national security? Their job is to deal with illegal immigrants. There are enough security agencies already.

KingsGambit:
Why do they have any responsibility to national security? Their job is to deal with illegal immigrants. There are enough security agencies already.

ICE has two divisions. The first, which everyone's familiar with, is Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO). Those are the guys who spend their time finding illegal immigrants living in the US and deporting them. This job is of debatable importance and not really related to "homeland security," unless you are an unreasonable person who believes that all illegal immigrants are automatically a security threat.

The second division is Homeland Security Investigations (HSI). These guys spend their time investigating criminal organisations that profit from illicit supply lines running over the border - drug cartels, sex traffickers, gun runners, and so on. This job is legitimately important and also plausibly related to homeland security.

You can see an organisational problem there, which is that these two divisions actually do highly unrelated things, and only one really belongs in the DHS in the first place. Worse, ERO - the division that has the least relevance to national security - also gets a lion's share of the funding, all the public attention, and tends to cause the most scandals. This is why HSI investigators are getting kinda pissed off at ERO, and petitioning for ERO to be split off from HSI - which would continue to operated under the DHS, presumably with a bigger budget - and have ERO either reformed under a separate department, attached to another agency - such as the FBI - or simply dissolved entirely.

It's kind of like the police department had two groups of cops. The first investigates murders and drug rings; the second catches people jaywalking and throws them into lockup. Worse, the second gets way more money than the first - because enforcing a zero-tolerance jaywalking policy is legitimately very expensive and resource-consuming, though of debatable importance or effectiveness - and causes the occasional scandal when they manhandle a jaywalker and give them bruises. Plus, whenever people debate funding for the police department, all the focus goes to how much money they'll give to investigate jaywalkers and how many cops will go on the jaywalking patrol. When the zero-tolerance jaywalking policy is questioned, its supporters claim that all of the jaywalkers have to be arrested because at least some small percentage of those jaywalkers will have also committed a murder, in the same way all illegal immigrants have to be arrested and deported because some small percentage are involved with drug running or sex trafficking.

To the cops investigating the serious stuff, this all looks like a goddamn circus that just makes their jobs harder. And they've got a point. Way too much of ICE's funding and manpower goes to the least important half of the operation because that half is the one that catches and deports illegal immigrants, rather than more effectively investigating more serious crimes related to border security. I'll let you decide for yourself whether that's racism or not, but it should be obvious that it's not practical.

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