The DSA are a bunch of looney tunes

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WolvDragon:
We need ICE to protect our borders

ICE don't actually do anything on the border, they operate entirely within your homeland territory. Its the appropriately named Border Patrol who defend your borders, go look into them

WolvDragon:
and honestly do I really need to explain why we need prisons?

At the moment your prisons take in criminals and screw them up into worse criminals with no option but to continue being criminals. You may not want to abolish prisons, but recognise that you need better ones

WolvDragon:
But they can truly be helped? Maybe they can't be, and only know the prison life. These people are beyond saving.

All criminals are not beyond saving. Some are, and it's an unavoidable fact. But the system as-is is broken. Even someone guilty of merely possessing drugs is being treated the same as a murderer or rapist. An effort to rehabilitate is better than not even trying. You miss every shot you don't take, and wouldn't reducing the number of criminals be a worthy enough goal to change the system from isolation to rehabilitation?

Dr. Thrax:

WolvDragon:
But they can truly be helped? Maybe they can't be, and only know the prison life. These people are beyond saving.

All criminals are not beyond saving. Some are, and it's an unavoidable fact. But the system as-is is broken. Even someone guilty of merely possessing drugs is being treated the same as a murderer or rapist. An effort to rehabilitate is better than not even trying. You miss every shot you don't take, and wouldn't reducing the number of criminals be a worthy enough goal to change the system from isolation to rehabilitation?

The only people I think who need rehabilitation are the ones who commit non violent offenses, like people taking drugs. Other then those, the ones who commit more horrible crimes should be locked up forever.

WolvDragon:
The only people I think who need rehabilitation are the ones who commit non violent offenses, like people taking drugs. Other then those, the ones who commit more horrible crimes should be locked up forever.

There are violent crimes that aren't anywhere as serious as murder and rape, should they be locked up forever as well?

Prison should be for rehabilitation, and you have to attempt to rehabilitate someone before you can declare they're incapable of being rehab'd. Long-term to permanent incarceration should be the final step.

Dr. Thrax:

WolvDragon:
The only people I think who need rehabilitation are the ones who commit non violent offenses, like people taking drugs. Other then those, the ones who commit more horrible crimes should be locked up forever.

There are violent crimes that aren't anywhere as serious as murder and rape, should they be locked up forever as well?

Prison should be for rehabilitation, and you have to attempt to rehabilitate someone before you can declare they're incapable of being rehab'd. Long-term to permanent incarceration should be the final step.

Then we can agree that abolishing prisons is an absurd idea, because we still need them.

WolvDragon:
Then we can agree that abolishing prisons is an absurd idea, because we still need them.

"Abolish prisons" is the extremely short version that can be put on a banner.
But if you don't look past that you fail to miss the nuance in the position. The system as it exists would need to be torn down to replace it, for-profit prisons and the prison system in general is just institutionalized slavery in the US.

You still haven't answered my question: Should people convicted of less serious violent crimes also be imprisoned for life?

WolvDragon:
So marxism, yeah no, I don't believe in marxism. I don't believe in the state owning corporations under some failed economic theory from Karl Marx.

If you think Marxism is about "the state owning corporations" or that it is "a failed economic theory", then it's pretty clear you aren't familiar with what Marxism actually is.

Quick quiz: which of the following did Marx actually write?

image

Eh, the only problem with the whole "abolish prisons" and "abolish profit" is that putting that on a sign with no context makes it extremely easy to misinterpret it as "let prisoners run free" and "abolish money". Abolish ICE on a sign I see no problem with as it's proven itself to be a wild dog that has no idea what it's doing. At the very least it needs to be dropped and replaced with something else, something that actually has more oversight. In fact I'd expand the idea of merely scrapping ICE to also pushing for actual immigration reform. The current system is fucked.

As for the other two points, the prison system here in the States needs to be reformed from the ground up. Private prisons need to not be a thing, and rehabilitation should be more of a focus. The wealth gap in this country just keeps growing, and something needs to done about that too no matter how much the media and politicians will scream "class warfare". The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. Something has to be done. Those aren't radical positions either, those are things people want and have been demanding for decades. We need change...actual change. Change that people will be willing to rally behind and vote for.

Palindromemordnilap:

WolvDragon:
We need ICE to protect our borders

ICE don't actually do anything on the border, they operate entirely within your homeland territory. Its the appropriately named Border Patrol who defend your borders, go look into them

So much this. Plus, ICE is an active replacement for the INS created in 2003 and coupled into the largely oversight-less "War on Terror". Going back to, say, the INS would involve putting back into place things like congressional oversight, which is important lest we have the cops called on Congress people who want to inspect detention facilities.

(That said, considering more US people are emigrating to Mexico then Mexicans are emigrating to the US, I'm not exactly against lowering enforcement across the board.)

WolvDragon:

Um yes we do. How the heck are we gonna enforce our borders? Yeah not all lefties are for open borders.

What does ICE stand for? Hint: nothing to do with borders.

Um I rather not have capitalism go away, despite it's fault. I think it should be highly regulated though.

How about it should go away, tho.

So you want murderers running around? Yeah I don't think so.

There are murderers running around right now dude. You do realize prison isn't forever, right? Again, what are prisons currently used for and what should they be used for?

Souplex:

BreakfastMan:

ex951753:
The Dems need to find a middle ground or it will be a repeat of the 2016 election.

Remind me again: which of the dem candidates lost to trump in the general? The more left-wing one or the more centrist one?

The one who was more left wing on every social issue, notably including guns and immigration, but didn't repeat the same talking point aboot wall street and the one percent like it was the secret word on PeeWee's Playhouse.

"more left wing on every social issue" lol Tell me again, what was the reaction of Bernie and Hillary to BLM?

As far as wall street and the one percent... the thing is, that is a good talking point that people care about. Y'know, instead of "America is already great". Can't blame Bernie for being the more appealing candidate.

WolvDragon:
We need ICE to protect our borders

Please don't confuse ICE with the USBP (United States Border Patrol). The later is in charge of protecting the borders, ICE isn't. Are we clear?

WolvDragon:
snip

Fun fact: DSA were fervent supporters of Bernie Sanders. The majority of the most recent members since 2016 are Bernie supporters.

Fun fact: DSA didn't consider Obama's policies as socialistic.

Fun fact: Democrats on the top can't afford to become radical, because they'd lose their power obtained through capitalist means (private property)

These facts make your fears of the DSA taking over the democratic party merely absurd fear-mongering.

WolvDragon:

Dr. Thrax:

WolvDragon:
The only people I think who need rehabilitation are the ones who commit non violent offenses, like people taking drugs. Other then those, the ones who commit more horrible crimes should be locked up forever.

There are violent crimes that aren't anywhere as serious as murder and rape, should they be locked up forever as well?

Prison should be for rehabilitation, and you have to attempt to rehabilitate someone before you can declare they're incapable of being rehab'd. Long-term to permanent incarceration should be the final step.

Then we can agree that abolishing prisons is an absurd idea, because we still need them.

We do not need them in their current form, we need to change them to where they are essentially unrecognizable. The Netherlands system, for example, has proven so successful they have been able to entirely shut down many of their prisons already as they no longer have enough criminal to put in them. I watched a documentary on them a while back, they do not use prisons to punish people, they use them to help people. They do not believe in punishment as it has shown to not work. Their system however utilizes the social welfare system and treats everyone as a human being and helps them sort out their problems so they can function better in society and become more successful. If a person has a mental health issue, they are sent to a medical facility rather than punished in a prison as they more frequently are in the US. They would have to overhaul the entire justice system as well as healthcare and welfare system in order to implement a system that is better for the people and actually works. In the end it would be abolishing ' prisons" as we know them entirely as the new system would be entirely unrecognizable.

The issue is of course the backwards American public is in no way ready to understand this let alone implement it. They LIKE the idea of punishment rather than having a system that works. Whether or not it works is pretty irrelevant to the American people for the most part.

EDIT: And yes, in order to make a system that works, the current prisons would be shut down and the new facilities would be designed entirely different than what they have now as the current facilities are in no way equipped for the right purpose.

Nedoras:
Eh, the only problem with the whole "abolish prisons" and "abolish profit" is that putting that on a sign with no context makes it extremely easy to misinterpret it as "let prisoners run free" and "abolish money".

This.

The DSA's biggest problem is stupid messaging.

You can't just put "Abolish prisons" on a sign. That'll make people think "They want rapists and murderers to run free with no punishment!!!" and give ammo to their opponents.

Yes, I get that they want to replace the current system with one more focused on rehabilitation, and I agree with that, as it seems to be more effective at stopping criminals from relapsing once they're done their sentence. But the wording matters, as it WILL scare off people.

CaitSeith:

WolvDragon:
snip

Fun fact: DSA were fervent supporters of Bernie Sanders. The majority of the most recent members since 2016 are Bernie supporters.

Fun fact: DSA didn't consider Obama's policies as socialistic.

Fun fact: Democrats on the top can't afford to become radical, because they'd lose their power obtained through capitalist means (private property)

These facts make your fears of the DSA taking over the democratic party merely absurd fear-mongering.

Not fear mongering, the DSA wants to abolish prisons and capitalism which Bernie isn't for. You want a political party where you have people calling for prisons to be abolished? That's asking for disaster. Some of the DSA positions are too extreme, and it borders on lunacy. If you think abolishing prisons is gonna sit well with the rest of America, then you're wrong. The right already paints the left as some kind of hippie movement, you really think we need the DSA adding fuel to the fire? Also when did I mention Obama? I'm curious as to how you got that.

Dr. Thrax:

WolvDragon:
Then we can agree that abolishing prisons is an absurd idea, because we still need them.

"Abolish prisons" is the extremely short version that can be put on a banner.
But if you don't look past that you fail to miss the nuance in the position. The system as it exists would need to be torn down to replace it, for-profit prisons and the prison system in general is just institutionalized slavery in the US.

You still haven't answered my question: Should people convicted of less serious violent crimes also be imprisoned for life?

I believe I answered your question already.

And again, I don't want rapists, pedophiles, murderers, terrorists running lose. If you abolish prisons you're just gonna have these people who are too far gone running lose. No the system needs to be kept.

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

Dr. Thrax:

There are violent crimes that aren't anywhere as serious as murder and rape, should they be locked up forever as well?

Prison should be for rehabilitation, and you have to attempt to rehabilitate someone before you can declare they're incapable of being rehab'd. Long-term to permanent incarceration should be the final step.

Then we can agree that abolishing prisons is an absurd idea, because we still need them.

we do not need them in their current form, we need to change them to where they are essentially unrecognizable. The Netherlands system, for example, has proven so successful they have been able to entirely shut down many of their prisons already as they no longer have enough criminal to put in them. I watched a documentary on them a while back, they do not use prisons to punish people, they use them to help people. They do not believe in punishment as it has shown to not work. Their system however utilizes the social welfare system and treats everyone as a human being and helps them sort out their problems so they can function better in society and become more successful. If a person has a mental health issue, they are sent to a medical facility rather than punished in a prison as they more frequently are in the US. They would have to overhaul the entire justice system as well as healthcare and welfare system in order to implement a system that is better for the people and actually works. In the end it would be abolishing ' prisons" as we know them entirely as the new system would be entirely unrecognizable.

The issue is of course the backwards American public is in no way ready to understand this let alone implement it. They LIKE the idea of punishment rather than having a system that works. Whether or not it works is pretty irrelevant to the American people for the most part.

What might work in the netherlands doesn't work here properly.

WolvDragon:

Dr. Thrax:

WolvDragon:
Then we can agree that abolishing prisons is an absurd idea, because we still need them.

"Abolish prisons" is the extremely short version that can be put on a banner.
But if you don't look past that you fail to miss the nuance in the position. The system as it exists would need to be torn down to replace it, for-profit prisons and the prison system in general is just institutionalized slavery in the US.

You still haven't answered my question: Should people convicted of less serious violent crimes also be imprisoned for life?

I believe I answered your question already.

And again, I don't want rapists, pedophiles, murderers, terrorists running lose. If you abolish prisons you're just gonna have these people who are too far gone running lose. No the system needs to be kept.

You do realize parole is a thing, right? Like, do you think killing someone is just an automatic life sentence?

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

Then we can agree that abolishing prisons is an absurd idea, because we still need them.

we do not need them in their current form, we need to change them to where they are essentially unrecognizable. The Netherlands system, for example, has proven so successful they have been able to entirely shut down many of their prisons already as they no longer have enough criminal to put in them. I watched a documentary on them a while back, they do not use prisons to punish people, they use them to help people. They do not believe in punishment as it has shown to not work. Their system however utilizes the social welfare system and treats everyone as a human being and helps them sort out their problems so they can function better in society and become more successful. If a person has a mental health issue, they are sent to a medical facility rather than punished in a prison as they more frequently are in the US. They would have to overhaul the entire justice system as well as healthcare and welfare system in order to implement a system that is better for the people and actually works. In the end it would be abolishing ' prisons" as we know them entirely as the new system would be entirely unrecognizable.

The issue is of course the backwards American public is in no way ready to understand this let alone implement it. They LIKE the idea of punishment rather than having a system that works. Whether or not it works is pretty irrelevant to the American people for the most part.

What might work in the Netherlands doesn't work here properly.

If properly implemented it would work fine. But in the US currently we do not have the qualified people, nor the "will" to do so, and that is the biggest hurdle to proper implementation.

EDIT: In addition, oddly enough I was speaking to a friend of mine in the Netherlands yesterday about this very subject. They see the US 's biggest problem is no accountability by our politicians and CEO's and such as being the biggest obstacle. The US has to start holding politicians and wealthy responsible for everything they do to stop the corruption and pass many more anti corruption laws for public officials in order to be able to start to reform anything. They were telling me that if their officials behaved like ours did they would be the ones being arrested.

You cannot have working programs of any kind as long as you have people in office who are criminals themselves as Trump is. Trumps " Trump university scam" alone should have disqualified him for public office. Not just Trump though, many other officials in office currently would be disqualified from the job due to them being held accountable for their actions. You have to be able to guarantee that you have qualified people running the programs for things to be able to run properly at all.

CaitSeith:

WolvDragon:
We need ICE to protect our borders

Please don't confuse ICE with the USBP (United States Border Patrol). The later is in charge of protecting the borders, ICE isn't. Are we clear?

They're still in charge of enforcing our immigration laws, and without them we'll have open borders. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/abolishing-ice-erase-americas-borders-open-floodgates-crime-drugs-terrorism/

BreakfastMan:

WolvDragon:

Dr. Thrax:

"Abolish prisons" is the extremely short version that can be put on a banner.
But if you don't look past that you fail to miss the nuance in the position. The system as it exists would need to be torn down to replace it, for-profit prisons and the prison system in general is just institutionalized slavery in the US.

You still haven't answered my question: Should people convicted of less serious violent crimes also be imprisoned for life?

I believe I answered your question already.

And again, I don't want rapists, pedophiles, murderers, terrorists running lose. If you abolish prisons you're just gonna have these people who are too far gone running lose. No the system needs to be kept.

You do realize parole is a thing, right? Like, do you think killing someone is just an automatic life sentence?

Yes let's give parole to someone who took another person's life. Yeah no, if you killed someone then you should be locked away for good.

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:
we do not need them in their current form, we need to change them to where they are essentially unrecognizable. The Netherlands system, for example, has proven so successful they have been able to entirely shut down many of their prisons already as they no longer have enough criminal to put in them. I watched a documentary on them a while back, they do not use prisons to punish people, they use them to help people. They do not believe in punishment as it has shown to not work. Their system however utilizes the social welfare system and treats everyone as a human being and helps them sort out their problems so they can function better in society and become more successful. If a person has a mental health issue, they are sent to a medical facility rather than punished in a prison as they more frequently are in the US. They would have to overhaul the entire justice system as well as healthcare and welfare system in order to implement a system that is better for the people and actually works. In the end it would be abolishing ' prisons" as we know them entirely as the new system would be entirely unrecognizable.

The issue is of course the backwards American public is in no way ready to understand this let alone implement it. They LIKE the idea of punishment rather than having a system that works. Whether or not it works is pretty irrelevant to the American people for the most part.

What might work in the Netherlands doesn't work here properly.

If properly implemented it would work fine. But in the US currently we do not have the qualified people, nor the "will" to do so, and that is the biggest hurdle to proper implementation.

No it won't, the most evil out there are beyond helping.

WolvDragon:

BreakfastMan:

WolvDragon:
I believe I answered your question already.

And again, I don't want rapists, pedophiles, murderers, terrorists running lose. If you abolish prisons you're just gonna have these people who are too far gone running lose. No the system needs to be kept.

You do realize parole is a thing, right? Like, do you think killing someone is just an automatic life sentence?

Yes let's give parole to someone who took another person's life. Yeah no, if you killed someone then you should be locked away for good.

You do realize that isn't even how the system works currently, right?

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

What might work in the Netherlands doesn't work here properly.

If properly implemented it would work fine. But in the US currently we do not have the qualified people, nor the "will" to do so, and that is the biggest hurdle to proper implementation.

No it won't, the most evil out there are beyond helping.

If that were true, The Netherlands would not be shutting down their prisons for lack of criminals to put in them. Most people in prison are not evil in the first place.

BreakfastMan:

WolvDragon:

BreakfastMan:

You do realize parole is a thing, right? Like, do you think killing someone is just an automatic life sentence?

Yes let's give parole to someone who took another person's life. Yeah no, if you killed someone then you should be locked away for good.

You do realize that isn't even how the system works currently, right?

No kidding they are letting out violent criminals all the time and putting people in there for stupid reasons. The US system is a complete mess.

BreakfastMan:

WolvDragon:

BreakfastMan:

You do realize parole is a thing, right? Like, do you think killing someone is just an automatic life sentence?

Yes let's give parole to someone who took another person's life. Yeah no, if you killed someone then you should be locked away for good.

You do realize that isn't even how the system works currently, right?

Well it needs fixing, murderers don't deserve to walk away out in the street.

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:
If properly implemented it would work fine. But in the US currently we do not have the qualified people, nor the "will" to do so, and that is the biggest hurdle to proper implementation.

No it won't, the most evil out there are beyond helping.

If that were true, The Netherlands would not be shutting down their prisons for lack of criminals to put in them. Most people in prison are not evil in the first place.

If they were not evil in the first place, then how did they go into prison?

WolvDragon:

BreakfastMan:

WolvDragon:

Yes let's give parole to someone who took another person's life. Yeah no, if you killed someone then you should be locked away for good.

You do realize that isn't even how the system works currently, right?

Well it needs fixing, murderers don't deserve to walk away out in the street.

Depends on the circumstances. Everything always depends on the individual.

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

BreakfastMan:

You do realize that isn't even how the system works currently, right?

Well it needs fixing, murderers don't deserve to walk away out in the street.

Depends on the circumstances. Everything always depends on the individual.

Why are you and some people in this thread defending horrible criminals? They don't deserve any sympathy for their actions. They brought harm and cruelty to their victims. They're beyond help. I'm gonna stand by my belief that abolishing prisons is a horrible idea, and the DSA are crazy for endorsing it.

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

No it won't, the most evil out there are beyond helping.

If that were true, The Netherlands would not be shutting down their prisons for lack of criminals to put in them. Most people in prison are not evil in the first place.

If they were not evil in the first place, then how did they go into prison?

Because the US prison system is completely screwed up is how. They put innocent people in prison, they put people in prison with mental disabilities they put people in prison for nonviolent crimes, they put people in prison for all sorts of things they should not be is the problem.

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

Well it needs fixing, murderers don't deserve to walk away out in the street.

Depends on the circumstances. Everything always depends on the individual.

Why are you and some people in this thread defending horrible criminals? They don't deserve any sympathy for their actions. They brought harm and cruelty to their victims. They're beyond help. I'm gonna stand by my belief that abolishing prisons is a horrible idea, and the DSA are crazy for endorsing it.

I am not seeing that happen at all. Someone who accidentally killed someone is not some dangerous murderer who will go out and kill more people, yet the system may treat them the same as someone who is. All the while letting out someone who who has promised to kill their ex wife and children. That is how these things currently work in reality. Protecting the victims is not even something they consider in the US currently.

Lil devils x:

WolvDragon:

Lil devils x:
Depends on the circumstances. Everything always depends on the individual.

Why are you and some people in this thread defending horrible criminals? They don't deserve any sympathy for their actions. They brought harm and cruelty to their victims. They're beyond help. I'm gonna stand by my belief that abolishing prisons is a horrible idea, and the DSA are crazy for endorsing it.

I am not seeing that happen at all. Someone who accidentally killed someone is not some dangerous murderer who will go out and kill more people, yet the system may treat them the same as someone who is. All the while letting out someone who who has promised to kill their ex wife and children. That is how these things currently work in reality. Protecting the victims is not even something they consider in the US currently.

At least we lock away our most evil crooks, plus there's no proof rehab even helps criminals. They'll return to prison when they soon get released.

WolvDragon:
I consider myself left-leaning but when you call to abolish prisons, ICE, and profits, you're just asking to be seen as the fringest of fringes.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/32517/nyc-democratic-socialists-want-abolish-ice-profit-emily-zanotti
I seriously hope the DSA doesn' take over the Democratic party like how Alexandria Ocasio Cortez is doing. Otherwise they're screwed. The party can't be taken this far left.Just left enough for more centrist positions like single payer and free college.

"I consider myself left-leaning"

And yet, you supposedly follow and spread news from Ben Shapiro's opinionpiece subpar rag? Might as well post a Breitbart article, it'd get the point across just as well.

Sonmi:

WolvDragon:
I consider myself left-leaning but when you call to abolish prisons, ICE, and profits, you're just asking to be seen as the fringest of fringes.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/32517/nyc-democratic-socialists-want-abolish-ice-profit-emily-zanotti
I seriously hope the DSA doesn' take over the Democratic party like how Alexandria Ocasio Cortez is doing. Otherwise they're screwed. The party can't be taken this far left.Just left enough for more centrist positions like single payer and free college.

"I consider myself left-leaning"

And yet, you supposedly follow and spread news from Ben Shapiro's opinionpiece subpar rag? Might as well post a Breitbart article, it'd get the point across just as well.

So what? The DSA tweet is still real and they called for abolishing the things I mentioned.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nycdsa/status/1012808259818926080?lang=en

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