Reminder: NFL players kneeling for the Anthem was to protest racist Cops.

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I like how people persist in trying to change the topic from 'Police brutality is bad' to blaming everyone criticizing it.

KingsGambit:
Whatever it was for, they're morons for doing it. Politics should not be involved in sports, movies or the arts. These are things that should be universal and international and cross boundaries in the name of athleticism and competition. That isn't to say movies or the arts cannot be about something, having a deeper message is not just fine, it's necessary for good art.

So you oppose the national anthem at sporting events? Cause if you believe what you said, you have to. Otherwise you don't really think sports and politics should be separate.

Though sports teaches tribalism verbatim.

As for art, well, art and politics go hand in hand. Art is about making a statement, and most statements are political. To say art and politics should be seperate is to say artists should not use colors to make their art with.

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
True, I'm just curious as to whether or not he actually gives a shit about the sweat shops or is just looking for an excuse to not care about police brutality.

It's perfectly consistent to respect Kaepernick and be opposed to mainstream companies hijacking protest movements for financial gain. (*cough*Pepsi*cough*)

Because let's not pretend that's not the driver here.

The problem with the Pepsi ad wasn't that it tried to make a statement, it is that it made a bad statement. If Pepsi made a better ad, I would have probably praised it. Coca-Cola did a much better ad long ago.

Saelune:

Catnip1024:

erttheking:
True, I'm just curious as to whether or not he actually gives a shit about the sweat shops or is just looking for an excuse to not care about police brutality.

It's perfectly consistent to respect Kaepernick and be opposed to mainstream companies hijacking protest movements for financial gain. (*cough*Pepsi*cough*)

Because let's not pretend that's not the driver here.

The problem with the Pepsi ad wasn't that it tried to make a statement, it is that it made a bad statement. If Pepsi made a better ad, I would have probably praised it. Coca-Cola did a much better ad long ago.

I, for one, look forward to our future where brand loyalty is tied up with political view.
You're either a New Balance household, or a Nike household.
Coke drinkers don't associate with Pepsi drinkers.
Chipotle and Taco Bell have territorial skirmishes and throw the losers over The Wall.

It'll be grand.

CM156:

Saelune:

Catnip1024:
It's perfectly consistent to respect Kaepernick and be opposed to mainstream companies hijacking protest movements for financial gain. (*cough*Pepsi*cough*)

Because let's not pretend that's not the driver here.

The problem with the Pepsi ad wasn't that it tried to make a statement, it is that it made a bad statement. If Pepsi made a better ad, I would have probably praised it. Coca-Cola did a much better ad long ago.

I, for one, look forward to our future where brand loyalty is tied up with political view.
You're either a New Balance household, or a Nike household.
Coke drinkers don't associate with Pepsi drinkers.
Chipotle and Taco Bell have territorial skirmishes and throw the losers over The Wall.

It'll be grand.

I look forward to a future where corporations aiding human rights is the default stance rather than not. I know so many people want to skip the in between steps to a better world, but we cant. Our world is flawed, and sometimes fixing things is messy, but if we really hate evil corporations and want them to not be evil, then we cant get upset at them when they do something actually beneficial to society.

RobertEHouse:
NIKE does child labor still, https://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=88176&page=1

I am soo glad that people can over look the issue of children who are tortured and murdered. Present NIKE's attention as a silver lining to help end racism.Yet ignore the fact any NIKE products support child labor which is slavery. Brilliant, it's like protesting NAZISM by buying CHINESE products that were made by child political prisoners.People are letting one evil slip by because it "benefits"their agendas. It is so beyond hypocritical it can cause one's own head to spin.

The worst thing about this is how the markets work, either way NIKE is on top. Idiots, will no-doubt buy their products in a sign of solidarity as a statement.Not knowing or really caring what NIKE does to make their shoes and shirts for their protest. NIKE knows this and depending on how long the attention is, will start "guerrilla marketing" those targeted demographics hard.End of racism is fine, but whenever a corporation is associated with a movement that is brilliant marketing.

Exactly. Do people actually think Nike cares about police brutality in the US? No, they are just using it to get people to buy their products. Acting like they are actually concerned and and pretending to be a moral paragon when they still use child labour and beat their workers over in third-world sweatshops. How easy people love to forget that when suddenly they are crusading a topic people are invested in.

Whitbane:

RobertEHouse:
NIKE does child labor still, https://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=88176&page=1

I am soo glad that people can over look the issue of children who are tortured and murdered. Present NIKE's attention as a silver lining to help end racism.Yet ignore the fact any NIKE products support child labor which is slavery. Brilliant, it's like protesting NAZISM by buying CHINESE products that were made by child political prisoners.People are letting one evil slip by because it "benefits"their agendas. It is so beyond hypocritical it can cause one's own head to spin.

The worst thing about this is how the markets work, either way NIKE is on top. Idiots, will no-doubt buy their products in a sign of solidarity as a statement.Not knowing or really caring what NIKE does to make their shoes and shirts for their protest. NIKE knows this and depending on how long the attention is, will start "guerrilla marketing" those targeted demographics hard.End of racism is fine, but whenever a corporation is associated with a movement that is brilliant marketing.

Exactly. Do people actually think Nike cares about police brutality in the US? No, they are just using it to get people to buy their products. Acting like they are actually concerned and and pretending to be a moral paragon when they still use child labour and beat their workers over in third-world sweatshops. How easy people love to forget that when suddenly they are crusading a topic people are invested in.

Well if we want to talk about people who don't actually care about what they say they care about, lets talk about all the people upset at kneeling for the flag. The people who think patriotism is supporting police brutality against minorities, cause guess what! They are not patriots. They are the opposite of patriots, they are just enablers of abuse. True patriots want their country to be the best it can be, and that means pointing out its flaws so to fix them. With or without Nike, Kaepernick is a real patriot because he is standing up for something good. That is what this country was supposedly founded on. There is nothing more un-American than accepting an abusive and distant government regime that just oppresses you.

Saelune:

CM156:

Saelune:
The problem with the Pepsi ad wasn't that it tried to make a statement, it is that it made a bad statement. If Pepsi made a better ad, I would have probably praised it. Coca-Cola did a much better ad long ago.

I, for one, look forward to our future where brand loyalty is tied up with political view.
You're either a New Balance household, or a Nike household.
Coke drinkers don't associate with Pepsi drinkers.
Chipotle and Taco Bell have territorial skirmishes and throw the losers over The Wall.

It'll be grand.

I look forward to a future where corporations aiding human rights is the default stance rather than not. I know so many people want to skip the in between steps to a better world, but we cant. Our world is flawed, and sometimes fixing things is messy, but if we really hate evil corporations and want them to not be evil, then we cant get upset at them when they do something actually beneficial to society.

They don't actually care about this issue and are using it as a chance to make money.

Hey, if you want to buy into that campaign, more power to you. I won't tell you how to spend your money. But this isn't a stance based on principal.

CM156:

Saelune:

CM156:

I, for one, look forward to our future where brand loyalty is tied up with political view.
You're either a New Balance household, or a Nike household.
Coke drinkers don't associate with Pepsi drinkers.
Chipotle and Taco Bell have territorial skirmishes and throw the losers over The Wall.

It'll be grand.

I look forward to a future where corporations aiding human rights is the default stance rather than not. I know so many people want to skip the in between steps to a better world, but we cant. Our world is flawed, and sometimes fixing things is messy, but if we really hate evil corporations and want them to not be evil, then we cant get upset at them when they do something actually beneficial to society.

They don't actually care about this issue and are using it as a chance to make money.

Hey, if you want to buy into that campaign, more power to you. I won't tell you how to spend your money. But this isn't a stance based on principal.

You know that the NFL is also an evil money grubbing corporation right?

The people opposing Nike are not morally above Nike. They just chose a different color of the same beast, one that picked the side that thinks police brutality > opposing police brutality.

Saelune:
You know that the NFL is also an evil money grubbing corporation right?

Yes. Also I don't watch professional sports.

The people opposing Nike are not morally above Nike. They just chose a different color of the same beast, one that picked the side that thinks police brutality > opposing police brutality.

The picked the side that commercialized opposition to police brutality.

I respect Kaepernick and agree with him 100% on the way he wants to address the issues and his community. He does me no disservice as a service member by protesting and honoring his fallen brothers and sisters when he kneels. However, whereas a conservative might think this promotion makes Nike look bad, I have the exact opposite opinion and think Kaepernick shouldn't have done this. Some amount of me feels he knows the problems with these corporations and just wants the word spread out more and more or at least retroactively be remembered like Ali was, but he should definitely be criticized for taking the deal and should maybe even promote Nike improving their business practices while he still has a powerful voice.

erttheking:

So do you boycott Nike out of principle? Just curious.

Although it may not be the person you are responding to, I certainly do. Try my hardest to make clothes last as long as practical, especially shoes. When I do go out to get new ones, I either thrift shop the bigger name brands or do some research on smaller ones who still make stuff like sports and tennis shoes and get them at strip malls or whatever. I can't think of Nike without thinking "bad" even with this stunt.

CM156:

Saelune:
You know that the NFL is also an evil money grubbing corporation right?

Yes. Also I don't watch professional sports.

The people opposing Nike are not morally above Nike. They just chose a different color of the same beast, one that picked the side that thinks police brutality > opposing police brutality.

The picked the side that commercialized opposition to police brutality.

And? So fucking what? Police brutality is bad. I really don't care if people profit off of helping people as long as those people actually get helped! Isnt that the whole na?ve idea of capitalism anyways? That the desire for profit and the wallets of the people is supposed to make things good? You support Trump, who inherently supports capitalism to a T. You should be praising capitalism for doing some sort of good instead of just trying to be a contrarian.

Opposing police brutality is a more important problem than a company profiting on opposing police brutality. Considering all the inhumane things companies profit off of, lets enjoy the small victories.

Saelune:
And? So fucking what? Police brutality is bad. I really don't care if people profit off of helping people as long as those people actually get helped!

I'm guffawing at the notion that people will actually be helped

Isnt that the whole na?ve idea of capitalism anyways? That the desire for profit and the wallets of the people is supposed to make things good? You support Trump, who inherently supports capitalism to a T.

I'm not opposed to capitalism. Hell, the original kneeling protest was something I was in favor of to begin with, because it was an effective speech act that drew attention to the issue.

You should be praising capitalism for doing some sort of good instead of just trying to be a contrarian.

As my Aussie friends would say "Yeah, nah"

Opposing police brutality is a more important problem than a company profiting on opposing police brutality. Considering all the inhumane things companies profit off of, lets enjoy the small victories.

You can be happy all you want, I have no intention or power to change how you feel about. I just disagree that this represents any victory. Except for people who shorted Nike stock in the short term.

CM156:

They don't actually care about this issue and are using it as a chance to make money.

Hey, if you want to buy into that campaign, more power to you. I won't tell you how to spend your money. But this isn't a stance based on principal.

Fortunately this is what one of the many times where you will find what distinguishes a modern leftist from a liberal. A liberal will buy from Nike, either thinking what they are doing is good or that Nike needs to know they did the "right" thing by advertising correctly. A leftist will have no change on their opinion of the company overall or even change if they will purchase from it. There is a conflicted grey area on the left spectrum where other views may lie, but those are the predominant two it seems.

CM156:

Saelune:
And? So fucking what? Police brutality is bad. I really don't care if people profit off of helping people as long as those people actually get helped!

I'm guffawing at the notion that people will actually be helped

Isnt that the whole na?ve idea of capitalism anyways? That the desire for profit and the wallets of the people is supposed to make things good? You support Trump, who inherently supports capitalism to a T.

I'm not opposed to capitalism. Hell, the original kneeling protest was something I was in favor of to begin with, because it was an effective speech act that drew attention to the issue.

You should be praising capitalism for doing some sort of good instead of just trying to be a contrarian.

As my Aussie friends would say "Yeah, nah"

Opposing police brutality is a more important problem than a company profiting on opposing police brutality. Considering all the inhumane things companies profit off of, lets enjoy the small victories.

You can be happy all you want, I have no intention or power to change how you feel about. I just disagree that this represents any victory. Except for people who shorted Nike stock in the short term.

The problem is all the people who want to deceive others into thinking this wasn't initially about police brutality, who pretend patriotism is mindless slavery to a piece of cloth, who think that they suddenly care about other humans when they criticize sweat shops when they don't care about those people suffering just as they do not care about the people suffering here in their own homeland under the oppressive blue thumb of the police.

I wish we could solve all the world's problems at once, but we cant. I would like to end sweat shops, but its going to take waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than poo pooing this ad campaign. Might as well atleast marginally push against police brutality in the mean time.

Nike will continue to not get my money, but I will praise the greater support for an issue I heavily support, and be glad that some evilly gained money might be put to a good use.

Saelune:

CM156:

Saelune:
And? So fucking what? Police brutality is bad. I really don't care if people profit off of helping people as long as those people actually get helped!

I'm guffawing at the notion that people will actually be helped

Isnt that the whole na?ve idea of capitalism anyways? That the desire for profit and the wallets of the people is supposed to make things good? You support Trump, who inherently supports capitalism to a T.

I'm not opposed to capitalism. Hell, the original kneeling protest was something I was in favor of to begin with, because it was an effective speech act that drew attention to the issue.

You should be praising capitalism for doing some sort of good instead of just trying to be a contrarian.

As my Aussie friends would say "Yeah, nah"

Opposing police brutality is a more important problem than a company profiting on opposing police brutality. Considering all the inhumane things companies profit off of, lets enjoy the small victories.

You can be happy all you want, I have no intention or power to change how you feel about. I just disagree that this represents any victory. Except for people who shorted Nike stock in the short term.

The problem is all the people who want to deceive others into thinking this wasn't initially about police brutality, who pretend patriotism is mindless slavery to a piece of cloth, who think that they suddenly care about other humans when they criticize sweat shops when they don't care about those people suffering just as they do not care about the people suffering here in their own homeland under the oppressive blue thumb of the police.

I wish we could solve all the world's problems at once, but we cant. I would like to end sweat shops, but its going to take waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than poo pooing this ad campaign. Might as well atleast marginally push against police brutality in the mean time.

Like I said, I don't think this will change anything except who buys Nike products to status signal for the next month or so.
And then things will go back to normal.

CM156:

Saelune:

CM156:

I'm guffawing at the notion that people will actually be helped

I'm not opposed to capitalism. Hell, the original kneeling protest was something I was in favor of to begin with, because it was an effective speech act that drew attention to the issue.

As my Aussie friends would say "Yeah, nah"

You can be happy all you want, I have no intention or power to change how you feel about. I just disagree that this represents any victory. Except for people who shorted Nike stock in the short term.

The problem is all the people who want to deceive others into thinking this wasn't initially about police brutality, who pretend patriotism is mindless slavery to a piece of cloth, who think that they suddenly care about other humans when they criticize sweat shops when they don't care about those people suffering just as they do not care about the people suffering here in their own homeland under the oppressive blue thumb of the police.

I wish we could solve all the world's problems at once, but we cant. I would like to end sweat shops, but its going to take waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than poo pooing this ad campaign. Might as well atleast marginally push against police brutality in the mean time.

Like I said, I don't think this will change anything except who buys Nike products to status signal for the next month or so.
And then things will go back to normal.

The issue hasn't gone away yet. As long as people keep pushing it and reminding the world, it will stay relevant. It was a major part of why I made this topic in the first place, to remind people that the real issue is police brutality and constantly reminding everyone that turning it into an argument about patriotism is an intentional means to deceive.

I wonder what people think Nike will do with that money to have it go toward "a good use" in relation to police brutality. As if their CEO and stockholders and their marketing guys don't personally pocket it if it succeeds because Kaepernick has good will with not stupid people. Kaepernick himself might use some of his millions for his community. Those guys though? Not very likely.

Saelune:

CM156:

Saelune:
The problem is all the people who want to deceive others into thinking this wasn't initially about police brutality, who pretend patriotism is mindless slavery to a piece of cloth, who think that they suddenly care about other humans when they criticize sweat shops when they don't care about those people suffering just as they do not care about the people suffering here in their own homeland under the oppressive blue thumb of the police.

I wish we could solve all the world's problems at once, but we cant. I would like to end sweat shops, but its going to take waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than poo pooing this ad campaign. Might as well atleast marginally push against police brutality in the mean time.

Like I said, I don't think this will change anything except who buys Nike products to status signal for the next month or so.
And then things will go back to normal.

The issue hasn't gone away yet. As long as people keep pushing it and reminding the world, it will stay relevant. It was a major part of why I made this topic in the first place, to remind people that the real issue is police brutality and constantly reminding everyone that turning it into an argument about patriotism is an intentional means to deceive.

The issue won't go away, but this won't be the watershed moment for the issue.

CM156:

Saelune:

CM156:

Like I said, I don't think this will change anything except who buys Nike products to status signal for the next month or so.
And then things will go back to normal.

The issue hasn't gone away yet. As long as people keep pushing it and reminding the world, it will stay relevant. It was a major part of why I made this topic in the first place, to remind people that the real issue is police brutality and constantly reminding everyone that turning it into an argument about patriotism is an intentional means to deceive.

The issue won't go away, but this won't be the watershed moment for the issue.

Police brutality has become a major issue in a relatively recent amount of time, because now people are paying more and more attention. Police brutality is not a new thing at all though.

Saelune:
Police brutality has become a major issue in a relatively recent amount of time, because now people are paying more and more attention. Police brutality is not a new thing at all though.

And that has nothing to do with promotional deal.

"The #Resistance, brought to you by Nike"

Skatologist:
I wonder what people think Nike will do with that money to have it go toward ?a good use? in relation to police brutality. As if their CEO and stockholders and their marketing guys don?t personally pocket it if it succeeds because Kaepernick has good will with not stupid people. Kaepernick himself might use some of his millions for his community. Those guys though? Not very likely.

Paying Kaepernick. His enemies have atleast partially relied on him basically losing his job as a means to silence him. If he has income, he wont have to become silent.

The main positive is the attention to the topic and getting people to make themselves look even more racist and stupid by emulating the KKK via burning stuff they already paid for.

CM156:

Saelune:
Police brutality has become a major issue in a relatively recent amount of time, because now people are paying more and more attention. Police brutality is not a new thing at all though.

And that has nothing to do with promotional deal.

"The #Resistance, brought to you by Nike"

We're talking about the issue. That is actually one of the biggest parts of changing things for the better.

When Trump talks about 'make America great' he is referring to when we did not openly discuss problems the country faced. Gay people did not suddenly exist in the 70's, and women have been around since the dawn of humanity. It is only when attention and discussion occurs that change occurs.

Case in point, literally every civil rights movement ever.

Saelune:
We're talking about the issue.

You may be talking about the issue.
I'm talking about how this is a laughable campaign that some people are taking as far more than it actually is.

But like I said, you believe what you want to believe.

CM156:

Saelune:
We're talking about the issue.

You may be talking about the issue.
I'm talking about how this is a laughable campaign that some people are taking as far more than it actually is.

But like I said, you believe what you want to believe.

I'd say the same to you, but Id rather you believe different than you do.

And you're keeping the topic alive, like it or not.

Saelune:

And you're keeping the topic alive, like it or not.

If that's the price I pay, then I guess it's an acceptable sacrifice.

Saelune:
Paying Kaepernick.

Doesn't really need it. Multimillionaire either way. Would recommend you check his net worth. Might be better if those millions went toward wages for their workers or paying their taxes. Just saying. That would get a lot more people liking Nike than placing bets on the American culture war.

His enemies have atleast partially relied on him basically losing his job as a means to silence him.

Okay agree there.

If he has income, he wont have to become silent.

He can earn income and spread his message without hurting his credibility by taking a multi million dollar deal (already as a comfortable multi millionaire) for an admittedly good ad from not just a terrible corporation, but perhaps one of the worst by third world labor exploitation metrics. I'd have the same problem if jewelry companies pulled this stunt using Kap or anyone else to try and sell us their blood diamonds. These celebs should not just be good on the American cultural issues, but also class and animal and international issues with the businesses they get promoted by. All this would end if Kap just tweeted right now "Hey Nike, pay your workers and your taxes!". Granted he'd get his contract terminated immediately after making that tweet, but any ill will leftist or accusatory bad faith conservatives and centrist had about him and all this being about profit would go away.

Additional notes, he's always been with Nike. Ever since 2011. Other companies apparently wanted him (I guess because you can't promote good things without a celebrity) and he got a new contract and ad campaign and potentially his own line (this is where I will expect to see more liberals buying Nike shit) with this announcement. I don't deny Kap wants to do good and actually protests state violence instead of what conservatives think of as a publicity stunt for more money, but it doesn't help when you are aiding in lining the pockets of terrible people and not speaking out against their terrible actions and likely have a contract where you can't even do that if you wanted to.

The main positive is the attention to the topic and getting people to make themselves look even more racist and stupid by emulating the KKK via burning stuff they already paid for.

That's not good. Amusing yes, not good. Most people probably won't change their views with the exclusion of dumbass conservatives protesting Nike and dumbass liberals buying from Nike to #resist.

Skatologist:

Saelune:
Paying Kaepernick.

Doesn?t really need it. Multimillionaire either way. Would recommend you check his net worth. Might be better if those millions went toward wages for their workers or paying their taxes. Just saying. That would get a lot more people liking Nike than placing bets on the American culture war.

His enemies have atleast partially relied on him basically losing his job as a means to silence him.

Okay agree there.

If he has income, he wont have to become silent.

He can earn income and spread his message without hurting his credibility by taking a multi million dollar deal (already as a comfortable multi millionaire) for an admittedly good ad from not just a terrible corporation, but perhaps one of the worst by third world labor exploitation metrics. I?d have the same problem if jewelry companies pulled this stunt using Kap or anyone else to try and sell us their blood diamonds. These celebs should not just be good on the American cultural issues, but also class and animal and international issues with the businesses they get promoted by. All this would end if Kap just tweeted right now ?Hey Nike, pay your workers and your taxes!?. Granted he?d get his contract terminated immediately after making that tweet, but any ill will leftist or accusatory bad faith conservatives and centrist had about him and all this being about profit would go away.

Additional notes, he?s always been with Nike. Ever since 2011. Other companies apparently wanted him (I guess because you can?t promote good things without a celebrity) and he got a new contract and ad campaign and potentially his own line (this is where I will expect to see more liberals buying Nike shit) with this announcement. I don?t deny Kap wants to do good and actually protests state violence instead of what conservatives think of as a publicity stunt for more money, but it doesn?t help when you are aiding in lining the pockets of terrible people and not speaking out against their terrible actions and likely have a contract where you can?t even do that if you wanted to.

The main positive is the attention to the topic and getting people to make themselves look even more racist and stupid by emulating the KKK via burning stuff they already paid for.

That?s not good. Amusing yes, not good. Most people probably won?t change their views with the exclusion of dumbass conservatives protesting Nike and dumbass liberals buying from Nike to #resist.

Idealism must be tempered with realism. I just really am tired of people who claim to want left-wing ideals but don't want to actually walk through the steps leading to it.

Unless those people plan on Fight Clubbing down corporations, then we need to work with what we got. Right now, on this, a footballer and shoe company are what we got.

Sure, keep in the back of your head what Nike is really about, I get that. We should not let them pull the wool over our eyes, but with how flawed and fucked up the world is, we need to be realistic. Even the Avengers sometimes team up with Doctor Doom if it means stopping Galactus.

It's not that they're a corporation, it's that they are a corporation, much like the diamond/jewelry industry, where a sizable amount of people know they have terrible overseas labor practices. Even if I may not agree with them, this would be no different than a celebrity promoting the NRA as a group of reasonable gun owners rather than profit driven gun lobbies and conservative douche figure heads. That's how bad Nike is. The conservative equivalent to you would be anyone defending the NRA and its gun lobby practices saying "well we have to maintain that groups can protect themselves from state violence as well as violence in their homes and communities" completely omitting the many terrible things the group has done and continues to do only saying that shit to fool saps and have loyal defenders to protect their interests.

The thing is, I am being realistic. Nobody except reactionary morons from either side of the political spectrum will actually do anything about Kap renewing a multi million dollar contract for advertising and product line. And by you saying it is a good idea, you are admitting/reaffirming that there more of those morons that will eat this shit up than those who will not and that's what Nike is hoping.

And I hope I have to only say this for the last time, but there will be no good done on Nike's end for this if it goes well for them. No lobbying against police violence. No major aid to black communities. No raise in their workers' wages. No paying a black mother's court case against a racist cop who killed her son. No helping anyone but the guys at the top for having such good ideas.

Saelune:
So you oppose the national anthem at sporting events?

No, the national anthem is fine.

Saelune:
As for art, well, art and politics go hand in hand. Art is about making a statement,

No objection to art making a statement. I already said the best art is that which has a deeper meaning to it. I mean that things such as boycotting art or artists or judging it thru a political lens is a very bad thing. It should be universal and transcend borders and political divides.

Saelune:
and most statements are political.

No, that is not true. Statements can be about about any number of apolitical things, from values to love, religion, sadness or any emotion for that matter. Saying most statements are political is nonsense.

KingsGambit:
No, that is not true. Statements can be about about any number of apolitical things, from values to love, religion, sadness or any emotion for that matter.

Values and religion aren't particularly apolitical.

Lol at a freeze peach advocate arguing what art shouldn't be cover.

Better burn all my orwell and scratch up my dead Kennedy's albums because art is meant to be apolitical.

I find it interesting that Saelune made this topic to refocus attention in the face of a lot of diversionary arguments about the kneeling....only for this topic to very quickly be sidetracked into one or two side arguments about the advertising or the presence of politics in sports and art. With minimal discussion about the intended topic.

It actually makes a pretty good small scale example of the issue Saelune is trying to address.

Elijin:
I find it interesting that Saelune made this topic to refocus attention in the face of a lot of diversionary arguments about the kneeling....only for this topic to very quickly be sidetracked into one or two side arguments about the advertising or the presence of politics in sports and art. With minimal discussion about the intended topic.

It actually makes a pretty good small scale example of the issue Saelune is trying to address.

The diversionary argument she initially made this thread for is a blatant lie believed by uninformed Americans who think protesting during the anthem is protesting the anthem itself along with America. That diversion is both wrong and even if right that Kap hates the anthem and troops, criticizing white supremacy and police brutality is more important than some thin skinned veterans or sycophantic patriots feelings.

Saelune brought up the ad and rightfully the ?diversion? shifted to Nike and how we should be cynical of using Kap and me personally thinking Kap would be a better role model if he was against the evil corporation.

Now let?s look at my premises: Nike being a terrible company, them not actually caring about the issue and just know Kap will get them press, and that people buying into this campaign altering their clothing habits because of it are either stupid conservatives or stupid liberals.

Where is the lie? Unlike the racist conservatives angry about famous black man kneeling, there is a legitimate argument for Nike corruption and corporate takeover of identity politics to maintain and promote brand loyalty despite horrific business practices because of the appearance of support without any meaningful effort to actually support good issues to be acknowledged in this discussion and others.

That?s the difference between the ?diversions?. One is true and one is false. And even if the false one were true, it would not be more important than the protest/ad campaign while the already true one is. I?m not going to definitely say child labor and sweatshops are worse than state violence, but we can st least agree they are around the same ballpark, no?

KingsGambit:

Saelune:
So you oppose the national anthem at sporting events?

No, the national anthem is fine.

Saelune:
As for art, well, art and politics go hand in hand. Art is about making a statement,

No objection to art making a statement. I already said the best art is that which has a deeper meaning to it. I mean that things such as boycotting art or artists or judging it thru a political lens is a very bad thing. It should be universal and transcend borders and political divides.

Saelune:
and most statements are political.

No, that is not true. Statements can be about about any number of apolitical things, from values to love, religion, sadness or any emotion for that matter. Saying most statements are political is nonsense.

You objectively do not know what political means.

The national anthem of a country is inherently political. Nations are political by their very existence.

Love and religion are political. Case in point LGBT rights versus religious rights.

If you want to defend the national anthem at sporting events, you need to pick a different defense. You cannot fairly argue that politics should be kept out of sports while defending the national anthem. Those two views conflict.

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