EPA allows abestos back to be used within US manufacturing

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Also, as an Australia, that stuff is seriously bad news, don't play with it.

IIRC, it can take years for symptoms to develop, way too late to avoid exposure. it's dangerous to play with at any stage, a hazard when modifying a building or demolishing it, not just when building it.

Put asbestos in buildings now, and people whose parents haven't been born yet will end up having to worry about exposure.

vallorn:
Frankly, I'm of two minds on this since there'a almost no info in this thread and all sheer hyperbole. It has potential either way, if it's properly managed it's safe and cheap and useful, but if improperly managed can cause some quite nasty hazards. So more information is required.

No, if properly managed its simply less harmful than it is if you rub it in your face. Whatever form you make it into, sooner or later its going to start giving off the fibres that make it lethal, because its an insulator not indestructible

Palindromemordnilap:

vallorn:
Frankly, I'm of two minds on this since there'a almost no info in this thread and all sheer hyperbole. It has potential either way, if it's properly managed it's safe and cheap and useful, but if improperly managed can cause some quite nasty hazards. So more information is required.

No, if properly managed its simply less harmful than it is if you rub it in your face. Whatever form you make it into, sooner or later its going to start giving off the fibres that make it lethal, because its an insulator not indestructible

The issue comes when it's disturbed by say a drill, it can be mitigated to be less harmful by good construction, whether I trust housing companies to abide by good construction is another matter entirely.

bastardofmelbourne:

vallorn:
Asbestos is a lightweight, fiberous mineral that naturally occurs, it's fireproof and a great insulator so it was used in construction for decades. Bad side, there's a lot of evidence that says breathing in the dust produced when it's drilled into (like during house remodeling), causes a particularly nasty kind of lung disease.

It's not "a lot of evidence." It's a damn certainty. There are towns in Australia that were literally wiped out thanks to the presence of an asbestos mill.

That's like looking at a city that got hit by a nuclear warhead and saying "There's a lot of evidence that there was some kind of explosion here."

That link is not something I was aware of, jesus christ. I knew there was medical evidence for a lot of the damage it does, but not on that scale. That's actually kind of horrifying.

vallorn:

The issue comes when it's disturbed by say a drill, it can be mitigated to be less harmful by good construction, whether I trust housing companies to abide by good construction is another matter entirely.

In construction it isn't that bad, but all buildings have a finite life span, after which they're taken apart in some way (demolition, renovation, etc.) and that's when it becomes an issue. Bear in mind that a building will typically outlive the obtainable records of how it was built. Roofs of prefab garages often contain it too, and those things pretty much fall down on their own.

But why use something you know is dangerous to drill into? In the UK a lot of soffits from the 1940s to around the 1980s (I think) contain asbestos. So what do you do when the guttering needs to be replaced? You've got to drill into it or replace it (which amounts to the same thing, because ripping it out will release fibres too).

Asbestos.

ASBESTORS

As-freaking-bestos.

I mean, seriously:

According to Fast Company, the EPA's recently released report detailing its new framework for evaluating the risk of its top prioritized substances states that the agency will "no longer consider the effect or presence of substances in the air, ground, or water in its risk assessments."

If the agency will "no longer consider the effect or presence of substances in the air, ground, or water in its risk assessments" then what the hell ARE they considering in their risk assessments?!

It's official. We live in a parody universe. As some point in the last couple years, we have literally ceased to be the Main Timeline, and have swapped places with bizarro world.

I don't even know what else this parody universe will turn up next. Unshielded depleted uranium rods being stored next to schools? Guns being mandatory for everyone? Banning all elections? I'm really having trouble thinking of stuff that's actually unlikely/impossible nowadays. :s

vallorn:

Palindromemordnilap:

vallorn:
Frankly, I'm of two minds on this since there'a almost no info in this thread and all sheer hyperbole. It has potential either way, if it's properly managed it's safe and cheap and useful, but if improperly managed can cause some quite nasty hazards. So more information is required.

No, if properly managed its simply less harmful than it is if you rub it in your face. Whatever form you make it into, sooner or later its going to start giving off the fibres that make it lethal, because its an insulator not indestructible

The issue comes when it's disturbed by say a drill, it can be mitigated to be less harmful by good construction, whether I trust housing companies to abide by good construction is another matter entirely.

Or just from time as whatever the asbestos has been made into degrades. Its why we're told to just get away if we encounter any asbestos in the field, because who knows what condition its in

There are literal Captain Planet villains who'd look at this administration and go "hey, wait, you have to be more subtle".

altnameJag:
There are literal Captain Planet villains who'd look at this administration and go "hey, wait, you have to be more subtle".

Obviously this is all Captain Planet's fault, if the SJW Cap did not push so hard for environmental protections, Trump would not have been pushed to open oil pipelines, dump oil into the oceans and bring back asbestos, cause Trump isn't responsible for his actions, other people are.

Did I alt-right good?

Saelune:

altnameJag:
There are literal Captain Planet villains who'd look at this administration and go "hey, wait, you have to be more subtle".

Obviously this is all Captain Planet's fault, if the SJW Cap did not push so hard for environmental protections, Trump would not have been pushed to open oil pipelines, dump oil into the oceans and bring back asbestos, cause Trump isn't responsible for his actions, other people are.

Did I alt-right good?

no you made too much sense. Throw in some rambling about how asbestos actually isn't bad for you. something about the average person doesn't care about the environment and a bit about how it doesn't matter because of china.

you know who i feel sorry for? terrorists. they have been trying to destroy America for years and then the Americans elect this orange fucker who does a better job of ruining america in just two years.

ObsidianJones:

Kwak:
What's the russian around the trump head?

Fun

Environmental Working Group surfaced the post and provided a translation from the Russian:

Donald is on our side! ? He supported the head of the United States Environmental Protection Agency, Scott Pruitt, who stated that his agency would no longer deal with negative effects potentially derived from products containing asbestos. Donald Trump supported a specialist and called asbestos ?100% safe after application.?

Thanks, but not specifically what I was curious about. Apparently it says "Approved by Donald Trump, 45th president of the United States".
Interested in its meme potential.
As in, I'm sure it will be appearing a lot.
ETA...

The backstory is in the president?s book. He wrote that efforts to regulate asbestos was part of a mob-led conspiracy: "I believe that the movement against asbestos was led by the mob, because it was often mob-related companies that would do the asbestos removal."

https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/verify/verify-was-asbestos-labeled-trump-approved/285-582232807

I'm surprised no one's posted this yet.

Why don't we bring back radon painted watches while were at it

undeadsuitor:
Why don't we bring back radon painted watches while were at it

Well first they'll bring back leaded gasoline and paint, maybe even sweetened wine with lead too.

Meiam:

undeadsuitor:
Why don't we bring back radon painted watches while were at it

Well first they'll bring back leaded gasoline and paint, maybe even sweetened wine with lead too.

Several cities still have lead water pipes. So they're already ahead of the game.

image

There only two countries that actively mind asbestos, one is Russia the other is China. Both countries don't use safety equipment when mining the stuff either. China actually uses prisoners to mine the stuff as a form of slow execution for political dissidents. While the mine in Russia supports a small town and is treated like a tourist spot.

Interesting report from Vice at the Russian mine, shows how trusting people are to asbestos. As well as explains a bit of how dangerous it really is.

aegix drakan:

If the agency will "no longer consider the effect or presence of substances in the air, ground, or water in its risk assessments" then what the hell ARE they considering in their risk assessments?!

Because their regulations are so damn amazing that no problematic substances are going to get into the air, ground or water?

Thaluikhain:
Also, as an Australia, that stuff is seriously bad news, don't play with it.

IIRC, it can take years for symptoms to develop, way too late to avoid exposure. it's dangerous to play with at any stage, a hazard when modifying a building or demolishing it, not just when building it.

Put asbestos in buildings now, and people whose parents haven't been born yet will end up having to worry about exposure.

Peritoneal mesothelioma alone had killed or permanently sickened about a 100 people who worked at the contaminated blue asbestos mine in the Hammersley region. And those cases only emerged about 15 years after the mine's closure.

It's not just breathing the stuff, if it gets into food and water it causes generational-long death rates. Once asbestos dust builds up somewhere, in someways it's worse than nuclear fallout. You can't just instantly measure it, it gets everywhere, and there's nothing you can do about it.

The stuff is better left in the ground.

This is also why we banned in it vehicle brakes. We were literally just spreading that shit everywhere. In one way it's a shame, because motorcycles in partricular benefit from asbestos braking materials. Brakes are smaller, prone to greater heat build up faster, affecting total performance in comparison to cars. So asbestos was particular common for motorcycle brake pads.

But that being said, it's not worth the longterm exposure. And there are, albeit more expensive, ways of improving high carbon steel brakes and their pads to match the performance of asbestos. It's a decent trade off ... because you really don't want 4 million vehicles throwing asbestos dust around Sydney.

Being an auto mechanic was almost as bad as being a miner when we were talking about asbestos exposure. Which is why people were getting sick away from the mines themselves.

All the more tragically, the auto workshop is a place where parents might take their kids. Unless you're a Briton circa 1920 and prior, kids and mines don't naturally follow eachother ... but kids and their parent's automobile workshop might. The government ran a collection of tests for asbestos dust build up in workshops, for instance. And that was, if I remember correctly, the prime impetus of the government banning asbestos brake and clutch materials.

Asbestos is much like Strontium-90 to the Nuclear Test Ban Treaties ... (most) world leaders recognized we can't just keep exposing the world to it.

I half expect Putin and Trump to renege on that as well, for likely the same spurious and pointless reasons.

But hey? You know what? It's just more American and Russian made goods we simply just won't buy ... so let's not forget about economic realities here.

All the big automaking and autopart consuming places of the world beyond the U.S. are either banning asbestos parts, or in the process of phasing them out completely. There are simply better technologies out there. Better performing, longer lasting.

Honesttly ... I'm personally a bit worried. I love working on motorcycles, have always done so ... even as a kid I used to play with the old-style gaskets and brake pads on 80s and 90s motorcycle models and their respectively aged parts.

So everyone my age and with my hobbies as a kid has probably already got a less than ideal hit of the stuff. So you're not liable to see mesothelioma cases go away anytime soon at least until my generation is dead and buried.

Asbestos is one of those things that just doesn't go away. Not that I'm really worried, I certainly haven't received anywhere near as bad a dose as people in mines, or living near mines, or living with people who worked in mines, or living with people who worked in shipping enginery compartments, or mechanics, or their kids, or the people that lived with them... see the problem with making asbestos mainstream again?

It is ideally something we should just close the lid on and move on. Not just allow it to persist being 'a thing'. I can't think of too many things where we actually need it in comparison to existing materials we have that can replace it.

It's a dated material that is merely cheap, not good ... because the technology and materials to circumvent its use altogether is already established.

I would rather see as a species that will for the foreseeable future still need internal combustion engines and conventional braking systems and shifters working on making better materials more cost effective through continued application and praxis, than just use a cheap and awful material for no other reason than it's cheap.

Agema:

aegix drakan:

If the agency will "no longer consider the effect or presence of substances in the air, ground, or water in its risk assessments" then what the hell ARE they considering in their risk assessments?!

Because their regulations are so damn amazing that no problematic substances are going to get into the air, ground or water?

What regulations would prevent that anyways?

Motor mechanics and even their family members get sick from current applications of asbestos in places with good regulations. France, with its extensive work safety requirements and pension allowances, and its large automobile industry, still no 'safe asbestos'.

There is no regulatory force imaginable to 'make asbestos great again'. We just know it's utterly awful stuff.

It's such a national problem that a confirmed large number of lung plaques is grounds alone for receiving a pension. The medical costs of letting that exposure worsen is simply not worth whatever taxes a person might get from their likely highly diminished labour potential as time goes on and dealing with ever more invasive, routine testing for malignant tumours....

There is no regulations I can possibly imagine that would stop motor vehicle mechanics and their kids, or the buildings they occupy, from accumulating asbestos dust if they continue to use asbestos as they do. And that's just one example of one industry.

It really is a material we should just flat out stop using. We have better stuff. All asbestos has going for it is that it's cheap. Arguments for the persisted use of asbestos in things like gaskets and brake pads is tantamount to the sheer fucking stupidity of, say, Tony Abbott's arguments of "Clean Coal" ...

Hell ... evcen "Clean Coal" has merits when you consider the economic impact on developing countries trying to go from limited electricity output and storage to renewables ... asbestos is tertiary production goods application to begin with, and we have better materials for that already and the cost of implementation is purely private individual, not public works.

Use of asbestos is akin to pretending like automobile manufacturers shouldn't be held to any truthful standards of the quality of their seatbelts ... or their airbags ... or an honest account of a vehicle emissions rating.

We wouldn't argue for dissolving any of those regulations, asbestos should be the same thing. No asbestos ... period.

There's never going to be an 'asbestos dust-free' asbestos clutch or brake pad. The only reason people would use asbestos parts is purely because people are ekeing out every measure of profit, and costing the public its taxes and its safety to deal with the consequences. Zero public good.

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