Dark Souls messages are sexist now

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Elijin:

Im always fascinated by people who react to any discussion of negative aspects of the world with your kind of knee jerk push back. "No talking about problem! No acknowledging problem! Everyone just get thicker skin! I dont want to live in a world where I have to consider the cultures I participate it!"

This is a two way street you realize right? You suggest here that the community making these messages is somehow invalid due the standards of another culture. So which culture is right? The ones making harmless and easily avoided jokes, or the one consisting of professional victims.

Additionally, and I've said this before, since when was it bad to have a boys club? Every game, every activity, every single thing, doesn't have to be inclusive. It is okay to appeal to only CERTAIN people. When boys want to get together and drink and make crass jokes, it's "toxic". But when other communities want to have their own little clubs where they can talk shit about how awful the rest of the world is, it's fine?

These messages and other such jokes are benign to an ultimate degree. If they bother you, they are so easily avoided it's insane. Don't like a stand-up comedian, don't go see them. Don't like an actor, don't see their movies. It's really simple. Dark Souls makes this even easier, because you can literally turn off the feature you don't like and still play through the entire game without issue. It's like being able to watch the movie with that actor you hate completely removed, allowing you to enjoy it without stress.

CritialGaming:

Elijin:

Im always fascinated by people who react to any discussion of negative aspects of the world with your kind of knee jerk push back. "No talking about problem! No acknowledging problem! Everyone just get thicker skin! I dont want to live in a world where I have to consider the cultures I participate it!"

This is a two way street you realize right? You suggest here that the community making these messages is somehow invalid due the standards of another culture. So which culture is right? The ones making harmless and easily avoided jokes, or the one consisting of professional victims.

Additionally, and I've said this before, since when was it bad to have a boys club? Every game, every activity, every single thing, doesn't have to be inclusive. It is okay to appeal to only CERTAIN people. When boys want to get together and drink and make crass jokes, it's "toxic". But when other communities want to have their own little clubs where they can talk shit about how awful the rest of the world is, it's fine?

These messages and other such jokes are benign to an ultimate degree. If they bother you, they are so easily avoided it's insane. Don't like a stand-up comedian, don't go see them. Don't like an actor, don't see their movies. It's really simple. Dark Souls makes this even easier, because you can literally turn off the feature you don't like and still play through the entire game without issue. It's like being able to watch the movie with that actor you hate completely removed, allowing you to enjoy it without stress.

Nobody is being a professional victim here, we just think dumb "boob" jokes are dumb.

Why are you against more people liking a thing? That stuff is bad because we want more people to feel comfortable while playing the game. We shouldn't have to turn off messages to enjoy a game without dumb sexist jokes, we should call out the community to grow up

CritialGaming:

Elijin:

Im always fascinated by people who react to any discussion of negative aspects of the world with your kind of knee jerk push back. "No talking about problem! No acknowledging problem! Everyone just get thicker skin! I dont want to live in a world where I have to consider the cultures I participate it!"

This is a two way street you realize right? You suggest here that the community making these messages is somehow invalid due the standards of another culture. So which culture is right? The ones making harmless and easily avoided jokes, or the one consisting of professional victims.

Additionally, and I've said this before, since when was it bad to have a boys club? Every game, every activity, every single thing, doesn't have to be inclusive. It is okay to appeal to only CERTAIN people. When boys want to get together and drink and make crass jokes, it's "toxic". But when other communities want to have their own little clubs where they can talk shit about how awful the rest of the world is, it's fine?

These messages and other such jokes are benign to an ultimate degree. If they bother you, they are so easily avoided it's insane. Don't like a stand-up comedian, don't go see them. Don't like an actor, don't see their movies. It's really simple. Dark Souls makes this even easier, because you can literally turn off the feature you don't like and still play through the entire game without issue. It's like being able to watch the movie with that actor you hate completely removed, allowing you to enjoy it without stress.

Then I can turn it around on you too. Which is worse, the person making an observation or the people freaking the fuck out about it and telling her everything is fine and to go away cause they don't want to think.

The problem is they want most of gaming to be a boys club where no girls or kids or noobs are allowed. I mean if you look at a really hardcore gaming culture in a game its pretty much self defeating since they don't even welcome new players, they just want the same group of old players, which will always dwindle till there is nothing left. These are the dipshits that don't want gaming to thrive, they almost want it to just die as long as they get what they want out of it.

That's dumb. You lose out on a big portion of the experience of the souls/borne games by turning off messages. Plus, if the writers opinion bothers you so much, then why did you read the article, or even bother coming to this thread? You could have just said "I don't agree" and gone about your day, but instead it bothered you so much you had to come defend dumb juvenile humor, and from what? I didn't see the writer really even making a call to action or saying they wanted this ability patched out, it was an observation.

Kerg3927:

Am I not talking to everyone in this thread right now?

I wouldn't say offended. More like annoyed. It's kind of like a bad case of jock itch.

That's the point I was trying to make. You were talking about how people should be less offended and were only interested in talking to one side.

Also, no, I'd say pretty darn offended. Because it's being critical about the video games and it brings up women, which is like oil in water when it comes to a lot of gamers. Really, it's kind of depressing. Games can do so much and be so beautiful, but some gamers don't want them to be treated like art and want them to be treated more like toys.

Those jokes are infantile and i don't find them funny.

I also don't think they are sexist or a symptom of a cultural problem linked to sexism.

There could be some things said about automatic chat filters, whitelist communication and people understanding that as challenge. And there could be some things said about American cultural attitudes to nudity and all stuff sex related making sex stuff the object of this challenge from the presumed intention of filtering explicit stuff out.

If the culture has a more relaxed attitude to nudity and sex, it is less interesting as a matter for stupid jokes. (Teenagers exploring their sexuality for the first time will still make juvenile jokes about it, but it looses all attraction as provokation or borderline experience)

Can From please fix this and the DS:R backstab glitch? thanks

CritialGaming:
Don't like a stand-up comedian, don't go see them. Don't like an actor, don't see their movies.

Don't like an article, don't read it. Seriously, the only reason we are discussing this in this thread is because the OP got offended by a Kotaku article.

Saelune:

Xprimentyl:

Not debating your feelings on the issue; I?m certainly all for putting respect for others ahead of any need or ?right? to entertain oneself at others? expense of dignity, but certainly there are degrees of severity? I mean, given the outright vitriol and unmasked hatred and disrespect that is fairly commonplace in online interactions (let?s call those 10s on a scale of 1 to 10,) doesn?t crafty-if-immature wordsmithed innuendo fall somewhere around the 1 to 2 range? Did it merit an article like the one in the OP? I.e.: how much elephant shit did he have to dig through to find this rabbit pellet?

Not saying this is innocent fun and anyone should ?get over it,? but some things merit a stern folding of the arms with a ?harrumph? of disapproval and other?s merit an eyeroll; this, I feel is a case of the latter. And how he comes to the conclusion that this is ?a territorial, gendered assertion of power? is beyond me. If anything the intended audience is other equally immature players who?ll see it and giggle as much as they did writing it; I think giving that kind of person any credit to think they?ve masterminded a plot to ensure any ?girl? playing his game knows her place is giving that person TOO much credit.

I guess I should stop overreacting and quit making thread after thread criticizing people making sexist comments on Dark Souls then...

I know there are different levels of problems. I certainly think this is less of an issue than say, immigration reform, but that doesn't mean that we cant improve both.

But acknowledging it as a problem I think is a good start instead of just ignoring it.

I don't think it is intentional sexism, but isn't that kind of worse? Even I am guilty of being so used to certain ways of thinking that I need to work hard to reconsider them, but I do try, and I think we should encourage others to try to reconsider even their small actions too.

People hate complainers, but few things ever change without someone complaining about it first.

So we're clear, we're on the same side; I wasn't saying these messages weren't an issue or weren't indicative of a larger problem; I was saying this is such a petty case of the larger problem, it diminishes the impact of a valid concerns. If I were going to petition my city to put speed bumps on a street known for reckless speeding, my proof wouldn't be video evidence of people doing 1-2 miles per hour over the limit; it'd be cases of people doing 10-20 miles per hour over the limit with children playing in a park dangerously close to the road. There is no shortage of examples of video gaming sexism similar to the latter of that analogy.

To put it another way, speaking purely hypothetically, were we able to correct 90% of the grossly sexist aspects of gaming, let's say anything ranked 2 or higher on my imaginary 1 to 10 "offensive" scale, would a message like "woman ahead, therefore bleeding" even register beyond immature annoyance? Conversely, in that same hypothetical, were we to remove all the 1s on the scale leaving all the 2s through 10s, would the gaming world be appreciably less hostile and sexists? Probably not. I agree it ALL needs addressed, but watering the bushes of a house on fire is an indication that immediate priorities could be organized a little better. Awareness at this level is fine, but I think it best serves as a line in the grander story, not the headline.

The jokes are harmless and stand as a crude contrast to the depressing nature of the setting.

Those who are upset about such things need to grow up and realize others have fun in ways they do not personally approve of.

Some of the scribbling in that game has given me a good chuckle, others I read and move on.

If your skin is so thin that something scribbled on the internet by a stranger upsets you so then that is something you have to deal with as an individual. Graffiti has existed since our ancestors wrote on cave walls and it will continue to do so long after you are gone.

CritialGaming:
This is a two way street you realize right? You suggest here that the community making these messages is somehow invalid due the standards of another culture. So which culture is right? The ones making harmless and easily avoided jokes, or the one consisting of professional victims.

Ugh, never like it when people try to cast "victim" as some kind of offensive thing. It always shows the person doing it up as someone who's never been victimised in their life

CritialGaming:
Additionally, and I've said this before, since when was it bad to have a boys club?

Since always, pretty much. Its just only the last century or so we've been pushing against the idea. A boys club running things is alright...as long as you're in the boys club. Kind of sucks for everyone else.

CritialGaming:
Every game, every activity, every single thing, doesn't have to be inclusive. It is okay to appeal to only CERTAIN people.

Is it? Why? When has any other media worked like that? Movies don't only appeal to certain people, there's no books that go "no no, this isn't for you" and I have a sneaking suspicion you'd be offended if you found any that did

CritialGaming:
When boys want to get together and drink and make crass jokes, it's "toxic". But when other communities want to have their own little clubs where they can talk shit about how awful the rest of the world is, it's fine?

Who says its fine? What communities would these be? Are you under the impression that the world is full of societies who have nothing better to do than laugh at you and your beloved Dark Souls is the only place you feel safe?

CritialGaming:
These messages and other such jokes are benign to an ultimate degree. If they bother you, they are so easily avoided it's insane. Don't like a stand-up comedian, don't go see them. Don't like an actor, don't see their movies. It's really simple. Dark Souls makes this even easier, because you can literally turn off the feature you don't like and still play through the entire game without issue. It's like being able to watch the movie with that actor you hate completely removed, allowing you to enjoy it without stress.

Okay, you know how you're feeling in this paragraph? Like messages telling you a thing you like is wrong are everywhere, and its like the people saying those messages are attacking you and also everywhere? Thats what the sexist messages are like to the people they're aimed at. They've been putting up with stuff like that all the time from everywhere, but there's been enough of a shift that they can push back against it and call it out now. So they are. Why shouldn't they?

Abomination:
The jokes are harmless and stand as a crude contrast to the depressing nature of the setting.

Those who are upset about such things need to grow up and realize others have fun in ways they do not personally approve of.

Some of the scribbling in that game has given me a good chuckle, others I read and move on.

If your skin is so thin that something scribbled on the internet by a stranger upsets you so then that is something you have to deal with as an individual. Graffiti has existed since our ancestors wrote on cave walls and it will continue to do so long after you are gone.

And yet people are getting all offended over the original article.

Ironic.

CritialGaming:
Additionally, and I've said this before, since when was it bad to have a boys club? Every game, every activity, every single thing, doesn't have to be inclusive. It is okay to appeal to only CERTAIN people. When boys want to get together and drink and make crass jokes, it's "toxic". But when other communities want to have their own little clubs where they can talk shit about how awful the rest of the world is, it's fine?

These messages and other such jokes are benign to an ultimate degree. If they bother you, they are so easily avoided it's insane. Don't like a stand-up comedian, don't go see them. Don't like an actor, don't see their movies. It's really simple. Dark Souls makes this even easier, because you can literally turn off the feature you don't like and still play through the entire game without issue. It's like being able to watch the movie with that actor you hate completely removed, allowing you to enjoy it without stress.

Boys clubs aren't bad... when they're exclusive boys clubs that keep their shenanigans tightly sealed within their group and don't affect the greater, decent society. Dark Souls (and all videogames by extension) are diverse and shared environments with no "warning at the door" that any one group or another should feel encouraged not to partake. Should I have not played Halo 2 back in the day when the "N" word was basically every other word out of the mouths of other players in the lobby? Was Halo 2 simply a "White club" and not for me? To suggest we allow the actions of some of the gaming community (least of all the worst of the community) dictate who a game is and is NOT for is insane considering no developer strives to exclude anyone by design, i.e.: trying selling a game "strictly geared at juvenile misogynists" to a room of shareholders, and you'll see how popular the idea is NOT. Your example of stand-up comedians or actors for which one might not have a preference is not the same as buying/playing a videogame; these crude jokes are NOT a part of the intended experience; the marketing phrase isn't "Prepare to die... from laughing at the offensive jokes our user base place everywhere!"

That being said, I still stand by my word that I do not think these Dark Souls messages are nearly as bad as 90% of the other horrors to be found online, but that doesn't mean they have a meaningful place in gaming and it certainly doesn't mean they're not a part of the larger, festering problem.

erttheking:

Abomination:
The jokes are harmless and stand as a crude contrast to the depressing nature of the setting.

Those who are upset about such things need to grow up and realize others have fun in ways they do not personally approve of.

Some of the scribbling in that game has given me a good chuckle, others I read and move on.

If your skin is so thin that something scribbled on the internet by a stranger upsets you so then that is something you have to deal with as an individual. Graffiti has existed since our ancestors wrote on cave walls and it will continue to do so long after you are gone.

And yet people are getting all offended over the original article.

Ironic.

Oh stop being intentionally obtuse. This is a discussion. There is no irony here.

I am not the type to go looking for such articles, but this is a forum where people can discuss things and this is a current topic.

The two do not conflate at all.

Abomination:

erttheking:

Abomination:
The jokes are harmless and stand as a crude contrast to the depressing nature of the setting.

Those who are upset about such things need to grow up and realize others have fun in ways they do not personally approve of.

Some of the scribbling in that game has given me a good chuckle, others I read and move on.

If your skin is so thin that something scribbled on the internet by a stranger upsets you so then that is something you have to deal with as an individual. Graffiti has existed since our ancestors wrote on cave walls and it will continue to do so long after you are gone.

And yet people are getting all offended over the original article.

Ironic.

Oh stop being intentionally obtuse. This is a discussion. There is no irony here.

I am not the type to go looking for such articles, but this is a forum where people can discuss things and this is a current topic.

The two do not conflate at all.

Is "I ain't upset, so you're the problem" part of a discussion? It sounds more like an attempt to avoid it.

OT: I'm glad they added downvotes to the latest games, it helps the community to encourage more creative jokes than third tier Adam Sandler's repertoire (sorry, I watched Grown Ups 2 recently and... I'm still sorry).

Online mode offers more features than just random messages, so the suggestion of playing offline just to avoid the unpleasant ones is complete BS.

CaitSeith:

Is "I ain't upset, so you're the problem" part of a discussion? It sounds more like an attempt to avoid it.

In cases where someone is complaining about something that is water off a duck's back for a vast majority of people, it is an appropriate response when you get down to brass tacks. Getting upset over cheeky use of a modular chat system is entirely on the person so distraught by someone entering "finger but hole"

OT: I'm glad they added downvotes to the latest games, it helps the community to encourage more creative jokes than third tier Adam Sandler's repertoire (sorry, I watched Grown Ups 2 recently and... I'm still sorry).

Online mode offers more features than just random messages, so the suggestion of playing offline just to avoid the unpleasant ones is complete BS.

I think the suggestion stems from if the individual is so incapable of handling the occasional crude joke then they really should avoid online play. Failing that, as you mentioned, don't read the messages. It's entirely possible to play the game without looking at one.

They're cheeky, they get a laugh. And an individual's inability to internalize their persecution complex is no cause to destroy someone else's toys.

erttheking:

And yet people are getting all offended over the original article.

Ironic.

Eh, we all get upset at something meaningless in life. I'm upset because you used this meme on me.

This article is chastising the community for making sex jokes. It gets really absurd when the author puts these messages around the ballpark of sexual harassment and territorial marking. Considering how many people are offended by flat-earthers, I'd say most people are offended by things they disagree with, and bad arguments.

The discussion value of the article is nearly nonexistent. There are messages in Dark Souls that are sexist... but the author seemed to have forgot to feature them. The article could be one sentence: "I think Dark Souls messages are bad for women", and we would have be having the exact same discussion.

But I'm not going to pretend I actually care about the quality of games journalism to mask the fact that I am merely offended by this article and nothing else. Also unlike the author, I am also not going to associate it with some abstract concept to argue from an ethical standpoint. At the end of the day, things start off as being offended first, and then trying to come up with a reason so everyone else won't think you're crazy.

I hope you can understand I personally think these people shouldn't be taken seriously. If these people actually got their way, holy shit. Like if I posted "man... pull staff" and you were offended by that and wanted to change the system, I'd think you were either super religious or really hate bad jokes.

I can understand if this actually degrades your experience with the game, but turn it off lol. If you're trying to make this about sexism, then no. At least pick better examples.

If you want an in depth study of psychology or sociology issues you don't read a book authored by a auto mechanic. Likewise you don't go to Kotaku and read articles based upon sexism or social issues because they are idiots. You read actual P.H officially accredited articles from groups that actual are studying sexism in media.

We have had discussions on this type of slack for years, every time it's based upon what is basically a fluff piece. Kotaku likes to argue always one side of the coin; they don't research a thing dealing with such topics. They never get someone on the opposite view accredited to contest their views. They make half of it up and know how to "trigger" certain readers who help Kotaku spread viral.Which in turn allows them to draw more free press and additional views which make them money.

People are oversimplifying issues base upon what is clearly juvenile jokes and retorts trying to find anything to be offended by. If a person is easily offended and they stand on a pillar of salt.Then they should avoid being an actor,banker,business owner,ceo,cop,doctor,lawyer,politician,priest,scientist,teacher,twitch steamer,youtuber.
As these jobs require thick skin ,self esteem and self determination and a understanding the world is not going to cow-toe because they say so. In fact being overly sensitive will make a individual a bigger target,publicly displaying how much low self esteem they truly have.

Abomination:
Oh stop being intentionally obtuse. This is a discussion. There is no irony here.

I am not the type to go looking for such articles, but this is a forum where people can discuss things and this is a current topic.

The two do not conflate at all.

So you don't go looking for articles, but you do go into the threads that talk about those articles and talk about how dumb they are. Kind of seems like the same thing but with a degree of separation. Also I wasn't talking about you specifically, I was talking about everyone else. Hell, the person I'm going to reply to after you downright admits the article offended them.

I don't like my name anymore:

erttheking:

And yet people are getting all offended over the original article.

Ironic.

There are messages in Dark Souls that are sexist... but the author seemed to have forgot to feature them.

....You serious? I mean, people feeling the need to plaster sexual comments and period jokes over anything vaguely female related and even putting female jokes in kitchens, I have to say, it ain't exactly egalitarian. Kind of seems like the author put it front and center.

That's kind of why your "man...pull staff" comparison doesn't really work. It's not that someone make a sexist remark. It's that these remarks are absolutely everywhere in Dark Souls and Bloodborne around everything that's vaguely feminine.

And that's the discussion to have. The gaming community sucks at being welcoming. Not just to women, in general. I still see people around here talking about how the filthy casuals are ruining gaming. Gaming very much has a boy's club attitude in many places and it gets really offended when that gets challenged. I mean, constant sexist jokes don't really make women feel welcome, and TBH guys that aren't stereotypical meat heats get put off by it too. I know I do. Yes, jokes about the big titted goddess was kinda cute the first time, but we're three games later and we're still making the same jokes. It's a toddler telling the same joke a hundred thousand times, and it's worn out its welcome. And it wasn't even that funny to begin with.

erttheking:

Abomination:
Oh stop being intentionally obtuse. This is a discussion. There is no irony here.

I am not the type to go looking for such articles, but this is a forum where people can discuss things and this is a current topic.

The two do not conflate at all.

So you don't go looking for articles, but you do go into the threads that talk about those articles and talk about how dumb they are.

Yes, I go looking for discussion topics. And I have found one.

Also I wasn't talking about you specifically, I was talking about everyone else. Hell, the person I'm going to reply to after you downright admits the article offended them.

Admit it offends them, but they do not call for action to be taken or the posting of such articles to be prevented on a mechanical level.

Abomination:

erttheking:

Abomination:
Oh stop being intentionally obtuse. This is a discussion. There is no irony here.

I am not the type to go looking for such articles, but this is a forum where people can discuss things and this is a current topic.

The two do not conflate at all.

So you don't go looking for articles, but you do go into the threads that talk about those articles and talk about how dumb they are.

Yes, I go looking for discussion topics. And I have found one.

Also I wasn't talking about you specifically, I was talking about everyone else. Hell, the person I'm going to reply to after you downright admits the article offended them.

Admit it offends them, but they do not call for action to be taken or the posting of such articles to be prevented on a mechanical level.

*Looks through the article.* Neither does this article. The article says nothing about making it so that these should be prevented. The article even admits the author doens't really know what to do as a solution.

erttheking:

....You serious? I mean, people feeling the need to plaster sexual comments and period jokes over anything vaguely female related and even putting female jokes in kitchens, I have to say, it ain't exactly egalitarian. Kind of seems like the author put it front and center.

That's kind of why your "man...pull staff" comparison doesn't really work. It's not that someone make a sexist remark. It's that these remarks are absolutely everywhere in Dark Souls and Bloodborne around everything that's vaguely feminine.

Ah, didn't read carefully enough.

Most of them are sex jokes. Even if it's unfunny and done to death, it's still a sex joke. If you take a bunch of men and put them in a game, they will probably start making jokes about a woman's butt. If you take a bunch of women and put them in a game, they will probably start making jokes about a man's butt.

Anyways, this article is garbage and offends me. It has nothing to do with how bad the gaming community is. I know that already. There's no point defending someone who uses that fact to make "woman... try thrust" problematic.

I don't like my name anymore:

erttheking:

....You serious? I mean, people feeling the need to plaster sexual comments and period jokes over anything vaguely female related and even putting female jokes in kitchens, I have to say, it ain't exactly egalitarian. Kind of seems like the author put it front and center.

That's kind of why your "man...pull staff" comparison doesn't really work. It's not that someone make a sexist remark. It's that these remarks are absolutely everywhere in Dark Souls and Bloodborne around everything that's vaguely feminine.

Ah, didn't read carefully enough.

Most of them are sex jokes. Even if it's unfunny and done to death, it's still a sex joke. If you take a bunch of men and put them in a game, they will probably start making jokes about a woman's butt. If you take a bunch of women and put them in a game, they will probably start making jokes about a man's butt.

Anyways, this article is garbage and offends me. It has nothing to do with how bad the gaming community is. I know that already. There's no point defending someone who uses that fact to make "woman... try thrust" problematic.

Citation needed on the bolded section. And on the section before that frankly. I don't really like my gender being sterotyped like that. And what does "lol women belong in the kitchen" and "lol, it female, must be on her period" have to do with sex?

I think you're skimming the messages we were talking about.

erttheking:
Citation needed on the bolded section. And on the section before that frankly. I don't really like my gender being sterotyped like that. And what does "lol women belong in the kitchen" and "lol, it female, must be on her period" have to do with sex?

I think you're skimming the messages we were talking about.

No citation. That was intuition, so I guess you could say I was pulling it from my ass. Sorry for stereotyping you.

I do have a problem with those kinds of jokes, which is why I said I didn't read the article carefully enough. On the other hand, all the other jokes, pfft. One of them is a meme at this point.

Let's just say that some of them are funny, and some of them aren't. Really such a system shouldn't exist, but it does for some reason. Is it evidence of sexism in the community. Yep. Does that mean that it's sexist, and the community is sexist. Not really.

Yeah, I think we can safely assume that the community is pretty sexist, and maybe you can lump me in there too if you wanted to, but I stand with my point that some of these jokes are totes alright to make.

Try thrust, but hole.

Xprimentyl:

Saelune:

Xprimentyl:

Not debating your feelings on the issue; I?m certainly all for putting respect for others ahead of any need or ?right? to entertain oneself at others? expense of dignity, but certainly there are degrees of severity? I mean, given the outright vitriol and unmasked hatred and disrespect that is fairly commonplace in online interactions (let?s call those 10s on a scale of 1 to 10,) doesn?t crafty-if-immature wordsmithed innuendo fall somewhere around the 1 to 2 range? Did it merit an article like the one in the OP? I.e.: how much elephant shit did he have to dig through to find this rabbit pellet?

Not saying this is innocent fun and anyone should ?get over it,? but some things merit a stern folding of the arms with a ?harrumph? of disapproval and other?s merit an eyeroll; this, I feel is a case of the latter. And how he comes to the conclusion that this is ?a territorial, gendered assertion of power? is beyond me. If anything the intended audience is other equally immature players who?ll see it and giggle as much as they did writing it; I think giving that kind of person any credit to think they?ve masterminded a plot to ensure any ?girl? playing his game knows her place is giving that person TOO much credit.

I guess I should stop overreacting and quit making thread after thread criticizing people making sexist comments on Dark Souls then...

I know there are different levels of problems. I certainly think this is less of an issue than say, immigration reform, but that doesn't mean that we cant improve both.

But acknowledging it as a problem I think is a good start instead of just ignoring it.

I don't think it is intentional sexism, but isn't that kind of worse? Even I am guilty of being so used to certain ways of thinking that I need to work hard to reconsider them, but I do try, and I think we should encourage others to try to reconsider even their small actions too.

People hate complainers, but few things ever change without someone complaining about it first.

So we?re clear, we?re on the same side; I wasn?t saying these messages weren?t an issue or weren?t indicative of a larger problem; I was saying this is such a petty case of the larger problem, it diminishes the impact of a valid concerns. If I were going to petition my city to put speed bumps on a street known for reckless speeding, my proof wouldn?t be video evidence of people doing 1-2 miles per hour over the limit; it?d be cases of people doing 10-20 miles per hour over the limit with children playing in a park dangerously close to the road. There is no shortage of examples of video gaming sexism similar to the latter of that analogy.

To put it another way, speaking purely hypothetically, were we able to correct 90% of the grossly sexist aspects of gaming, let?s say anything ranked 2 or higher on my imaginary 1 to 10 ?offensive? scale, would a message like ?woman ahead, therefore bleeding? even register beyond immature annoyance? Conversely, in that same hypothetical, were we to remove all the 1s on the scale leaving all the 2s through 10s, would the gaming world be appreciably less hostile and sexists? Probably not. I agree it ALL needs addressed, but watering the bushes of a house on fire is an indication that immediate priorities could be organized a little better. Awareness at this level is fine, but I think it best serves as a line in the grander story, not the headline.

It doesn't diminish the point, it exemplifies it. It is one of MANY examples, and we should not overlook it because it seems small, but rather we should look at ALL the small examples cause THAT is why it is a problem! There is so much 'small bigotry' that we overlook because people go 'Its not a big deal; its fine; that's just how xyz are".

This casual acceptance of sexism is not ok, and honestly, I am starting to think even I am not as outraged by it as I should be by this point.

Abomination:
...for a vast majority of people...

...And an individual's inability...

Those are mere assumptions. If they were true, we wouldn't be discussing this topic right now, because the complains would fly under the radar.

Abomination:
I think the suggestion stems from if the individual is so incapable of handling the occasional crude joke then they really should avoid online play. Failing that, as you mentioned, don't read the messages. It's entirely possible to play the game without looking at one.

They're cheeky, they get a laugh. And an individual's inability to internalize their persecution complex is no cause to destroy someone else's toys.

Really? Ones preference for bad jokes should be what determines if someone should play online? Not the co-op or PvP elements?

And again, it comes down to 'Whos fun deserves more respect' cause why do we need to let sexists ruin the fun of people who don't like sexism?

I think the people defending the sexism are just as guilty of what you claim is a persecution complex. They certainly are as offended that people are offended as the offended are about the comments.

CaitSeith:

Abomination:
...for a vast majority of people...

...And an individual's inability...

Those are mere assumptions. If they were true, we wouldn't be discussing this topic right now, because the complains would fly under the radar.

No, the game has been out and the jokes have been around since Dark Souls original. It is only now being brought up after 4 games and a remake.

The vast number of people who have played these games have been able to ignore them if they don't like them or have enjoyed them.

Saelune:
Really? Ones preference for bad jokes should be what determines if someone should play online? Not the co-op or PvP elements?

One's inability to move on or simply not read some harmless scribble. I never said they can not play the game in any capacity, I am suggesting how someone can overcome their fear of reading a potentially sexist message of cobbled together words from a template.

And again, it comes down to 'Whos fun deserves more respect' cause why do we need to let sexists ruin the fun of people who don't like sexism?

The jokes aren't sexist, they're sexual or just crude.

I think the people defending the sexism are just as guilty of what you claim is a persecution complex. They certainly are as offended that people are offended as the offended are about the comments.

You are wrong twice here and arguing in bad faith.

Abomination:

CaitSeith:

Abomination:
...for a vast majority of people...

...And an individual's inability...

Those are mere assumptions. If they were true, we wouldn't be discussing this topic right now, because the complains would fly under the radar.

No, the game has been out and the jokes have been around since Dark Souls original. It is only now being brought up after 4 games and a remake.

The vast number of people who have played these games have been able to ignore them if they don't like them or have enjoyed them.

Saelune:
Really? Ones preference for bad jokes should be what determines if someone should play online? Not the co-op or PvP elements?

One's inability to move on or simply not read some harmless scribble. I never said they can not play the game in any capacity, I am suggesting how someone can overcome their fear of reading a potentially sexist message of cobbled together words from a template.

And again, it comes down to 'Whos fun deserves more respect' cause why do we need to let sexists ruin the fun of people who don't like sexism?

The jokes aren't sexist, they're sexual or just crude.

I think the people defending the sexism are just as guilty of what you claim is a persecution complex. They certainly are as offended that people are offended as the offended are about the comments.

You are wrong twice here and arguing in bad faith.

Why cant we just expect people to have the ability to not be sexist? Why do we have to put the blame on people wanting things to be better?

The jokes are sexist.

I am not wrong just because you say I am, and just going 'you're wrong' is not a good argument, ever.

I am arguing in atleast as much faith as you.

The only people successfully showing none of this offends them are the people not posting at all. Either you're offended cause you think the messages are sexist (I am in this camp) or you are offended cause other people think they are sexist. The people in the later half are arguing that people should not be offended...ever. But by being offended have worked against their own point.

Saelune:
Why cant we just expect people to have the ability to not be sexist? Why do we have to put the blame on people wanting things to be better?

They're not being sexist, they're making crude sexual jokes.

Nobody is under any obligation to be "better" with their jokes or less crude with them. I say go full hog, stretch the template they're presented with to the limit. I ENJOY the jokes they make because I have a dark sense of humour.

I am not wrong just because you say I am, and just going 'you're wrong' is not a good argument, ever.

I am not going to repeat myself again and again as to the differences between discussing an opinion on a subject on a forum and being offended by it. If you can not grasp that concept by yourself I am under no obligation to lead you down that blatantly obvious path.

I am arguing in atleast as much faith as you.

You are presenting the idea that because I have a differing opinion than the article itself that I am somehow proving myself wrong. That is arguing in bad faith.

The only people successfully showing none of this offends them are the people not posting at all. Either you're offended cause you think the messages are sexist (I am in this camp) or you are offended cause other people think they are sexist. The people in the later half are arguing that people should not be offended...ever. But by being offended have worked against their own point.

Why do you believe I am offended? Because I have a differing opinion? That is all, I have a differing opinion. I am not OFFENDED at all. Disagreeing does not mean taking offence. It is baffling that you conflate the two.

Abomination:

Saelune:
Why cant we just expect people to have the ability to not be sexist? Why do we have to put the blame on people wanting things to be better?

They're not being sexist, they're making crude sexual jokes.

Nobody is under any obligation to be "better" with their jokes or less crude with them. I say go full hog, stretch the template they're presented with to the limit. I ENJOY the jokes they make because I have a dark sense of humour.

I am not wrong just because you say I am, and just going 'you're wrong' is not a good argument, ever.

I am not going to repeat myself again and again as to the differences between discussing an opinion on a subject on a forum and being offended by it. If you can not grasp that concept by yourself I am under no obligation to lead you down that blatantly obvious path.

I am arguing in atleast as much faith as you.

You are presenting the idea that because I have a differing opinion than the article itself that I am somehow proving myself wrong. That is arguing in bad faith.

The only people successfully showing none of this offends them are the people not posting at all. Either you're offended cause you think the messages are sexist (I am in this camp) or you are offended cause other people think they are sexist. The people in the later half are arguing that people should not be offended...ever. But by being offended have worked against their own point.

Why do you believe I am offended? Because I have a differing opinion? That is all, I have a differing opinion. I am not OFFENDED at all. Disagreeing does not mean taking offence. It is baffling that you conflate the two.

'They aren't being racist, they are just making fun of black people'

I do not doubt you enjoy the jokes.

Just because you say you arent offended, doesnt mean you arent offended.

Like I said, I am arguing in atleast as much faith as you, if that is in bad faith, then you are also arguing in bad faith. But go on and tell ME how I am wrong about my opinion.

Saelune:
'They aren't being racist, they are just making fun of black people'

Race and sex are different things. Something can be sexual without being sexist. Just like how someone can disagree with something without being offended.

Just because you say you arent offended, doesnt mean you arent offended.

It also does not mean I am offended. I will take my authority as to what offends me over your opinion.

Like I said, I am arguing in atleast as much faith as you, if that is in bad faith, then you are also arguing in bad faith. But go on and tell ME how I am wrong about my opinion.

This is pointless. I do not have the time nor patience to explain how you were arguing in bad faith if you are incapable of seeing the tautological argument you were presenting for what it was.

The jokes are harmless, they are fun, I want people to be able to continue to make them.

Abomination:

Saelune:
'They aren't being racist, they are just making fun of black people'

Race and sex are different things. Something can be sexual without being sexist. Just like how someone can disagree with something without being offended.

Just because you say you arent offended, doesnt mean you arent offended.

It also does not mean I am offended. I will take my authority as to what offends me over your opinion.

Like I said, I am arguing in atleast as much faith as you, if that is in bad faith, then you are also arguing in bad faith. But go on and tell ME how I am wrong about my opinion.

This is pointless. I do not have the time nor patience to explain how you were arguing in bad faith if you are incapable of seeing the tautological argument you were presenting for what it was.

The jokes are harmless, they are fun, I want people to be able to continue to make them.

Sure, but these are sexist sexual jokes that are not funny, and sexist.

And sure, you can disagree with something without being offended, but that also is not the case here. You're offended that people don't like or approve of the sexist jokes you like.

I am saying you are doing what you are accusing me of doing. That you are also arguing 'in bad faith'.

The jokes arent harmless, are not fun, and I dont want people to continue to make them. It is less of being unable to, and more of wanting people to have the decency to not want to make sexist jokes that serve to do nothing but demean and gatekeep against women.

Saelune:
snip

You still cannot seem to understand the difference between "sexual" and "sexist" despite people trying to explain it to you. Sexist means: "characterized by or showing prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, on the basis of sex". None of these messages show anything that could be classified under those three obligations to make the jokes "sexist". Talking about a set of breasts, or "thrusting try but hole" comments do not stereotype, show prejudice, nor are they discriminating. Therefore they cannot be sexist.

Nothing in these jokes are oppressing anyone or anything. And the fact that you cannot separate your offense from your seemingly non-existant sense of humor is baffling to me. I believe that you don't find the messages funny and that's fine. But to call them out (like the article itself) as some kind of deliberate section of the player-base specifically TRYING to keep other players(women) from playing is absurd.

erttheking:
snip

Citation needed? Seriously? Have you ever been around a group of women before? To suggest that sexualization of the opposite sex is something only men do, is seriously ignorant. Look around, watch some female youtubers, twitch streamers, or better yet, go to a party supply door and look at the Bachelorette party supplies! You'll find just as much ingrained desire to sexualize men as men do towards women.

And frankly MOST of it is completely harmless, merely part of the human desire to fuck.

Now yes, some of these things can cross the line, no one is denying that. But we are denying that the Dark Souls message of allllllll things, is not an issue in anyway and the entire reason this article was written was merely an exercise in trying to find ANYTHING to be offended by in the Souls games.

RobertEHouse:
snip

Yes pretty much exactly this.

CaitSeith:
snip

I'm not offended by the article. I'm disgusted that the desire to be offended by literally anything these days has resulted in people getting offended by 6th grade level jokes. When you are upset by shit that grade schoolers would come up with, then you clearly have deep underlying personality issues and therapy is probably a good idea.

To put it into comparison, there are ZP episodes on this very sight where Yahtzee uses the N-word freely. He makes far worse jokes against women (and men too, but jokes against them are free game). And yet, where is the outrage against him? I haven't seen anyone clamoring for his job. It's almost as if people are capable of understanding the concept of JOKES! Insane right?

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