John McCain dies

 Pages 1 2 3 NEXT
 

It's in the title, really.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/25/obituaries/john-mccain-dead.html
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/25/john-mccain-obituary-legacy-297689

McCain's family had announced that they were halting his cancer treatment just a day ago, but I wasn't expecting him to pass this soon. Cancer moves a heck of a lot faster than you expect sometimes. Cancer's a jerk like that.

Now, I know he was a warhawk. I know he was a Republican. But he was a rare specimen of a dying breed, the last of his kind; a Republican with principles. They do not make Republicans like John McCain anymore and I doubt they ever will again.

Holy heck really? Damn thats a shame. He was relatively good for a republican.

bastardofmelbourne:

But he was a rare specimen of a dying breed, the last of his kind; a Republican with principles. They do not make Republicans like John McCain anymore and I doubt they ever will again.

Eh, he may have had principles, but he sure did step all over them. He cynically picked Sarah Palin to be his running mate, despite despising how she was and the craziness she represented. Despite him being pretty vocal about how he hates what his party has become, he had no problem trying to use that to his advantage ten years ago. He didn't exactly give a damn that his party made a pact never to support a thing Obama did either. It doesn't matter that you have principles, if you're so easily willing to throw them aside. Hell, it's why Rand Paul is a laughing stock and always will be.

Cancer sucks, but I don't feel anything for his death. I'm certainly not going to remember him as being anything more than a warmongering grand stander at best. He may have hated his own party, but there he sat, wallowing in the shit that he was complaining about.

At least he was mildly upset about it though? Yay for that I guess?

John McCain is a terrible person. Lets not pretend he wasn't. Oh, he was the LAST republican to vote on a thing? So fucking what? Who was the first? Who was the one that said "I cant support this, even if no one else on my side agrees?"

(I was going to put "A maverick he was not" video where Biden criticizes McCain, but I cant find it)

Being dead doesn't make someone suddenly not so bad, other than being unable to exert their will anymore. He was all talk. His bark was worse than his bite, and he only starting barking when he got terminally ill.

They do still make Republicans like McCain, spineless. Its the Lincoln model we need to revive.

Don't worry, his daughter is still around to be awful like he was.

More accurate to say that glioblastoma can knock you on the head a lot quicker than many things. Glioblastoma is basically the worstform of braincancer youcan get ...and, you know... it's your brain. It's basically as vulnerable a place to get severe and aggressive physiological change as you can get. So will the burial be in the U.S. or the Panama Canal? Oh wait ... Republicans don't care if it's own when it comes to that ...

Also when it happens to be true and and Obama was provably born in Hawai'i.

In all seriousness, he was reasonable as a Republican and his political career shouldn't entirely colour his service record. Arguably he was an actual warhawk rather than a chickenhawk ... which makes a nice change from the usual Republican coward. That being said, he was kind of an awful politician so I don't see where your argument of 'principles' comes in.

Let's never forget that he would be complicit in cutting back on VA initiatives that would assist soldiers with blast related TBIs and other persistent head and brain wounding. You know, the irony that he was afforded the very best medical attention because he was a politician, not a soldier for whom would simply suffer or die bankrupted for brain injuries...

Tulsi Gabbard was the last veteran politician I remember in the U.S. that actually spoke like a soldier, and represented their interests in turn with her talks about social welfare and taking care of the people that return home... and she was a Democrat. Turns out people from a socialist organization replete with socialist operations might actually have socialist opinions when they maintain longterm links to people in said socialist formation. Who'da thunk it?

McCain for a long time seemed to represent the callous distancing from their constituents that politicians seem to develop as years go on.

Condolences to his family, including his 106 year old mother who has the unfortunate task of having to bury her son.

That said, I haven't been a fan of him for a while now (I disliked his pro-war stance ever since I became anti-war around 2010-2011).

To me, he is a key example of the fact that many people cannot simply be classified as good or bad (morally or in terms of skill). Most people are a mix of both.

We're going to keep a very close watch on this thread and any related ones.

As I mentioned to the Moderators I recall many people dancing and cheering when the death of Margaret Thatcher was announced so we expect many to do the same here.

That said we'll be extra watchful for anyone deliberately flaming others, etc.

On Topic: Senator McCain had his strengths and his faults. I certainly didn't agree with him on many matters but I genuinely respected him. His death saddens me. I wish his family well.

He certainly had more class than some of the politicians striving to replace him. Arizona candidate for the Senate Kelli Ward has already made McCain's death all about herself.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/08/arizona-gop-senate-candidate-kelli-ward-accuses-john-mccain-dying-push-negative-narrative/

He did give us Sarah Palin. Not saying he wasn't a war hero and a 'maverick' apparently, but he gave us VP Trump Jr. and paved the way for the normalization of crazy.

Sad to see him go, but his flawless record is somewhat stained ink black these last 10 years.

There's something pretty nasty I could have posted here. I'm not going to, but I want you all to know that it takes me no small amount of restraint to do so.

Saelune:
They do still make Republicans like McCain, spineless. Its the Lincoln model we need to revive.

John McCain is really bad, but let's not pretend Abraham Lincoln would be anywhere near acceptable by today's standards.

Saelune:
He was all talk.

He fought for his country, got captured and tortured for years, turned down the offer to be released (as his father was an admiral) unless his fellow prisoners were also released, all before going on into politics.

And then people have the gall to mock him about the injuries he sustained while doing it.

The guy lived by his principles. He may not have aligned with your own personal perspective, but he personally did more self-sacrifice for the sake of others than pretty much any politician out there.

Catnip1024:

Saelune:
He was all talk.

He fought for his country, got captured and tortured for years, turned down the offer to be released (as his father was an admiral) unless his fellow prisoners were also released, all before going on into politics.

So that's where his lifelong devotion to peace and diplomacy started.

Saelune:
They do still make Republicans like McCain, spineless.

You can call him many things, but spineless ain't one of them if you know his history.

Saelune:
Its the Lincoln model we need to revive.

They're called Democrats now. The parties basically switched after Republicans adopted the Southern Strategy.

PsychedelicDiamond:

So that's where his lifelong devotion to peace and diplomacy started.

To be fair, it displays some manner of devotion and principles to be a warhawk and remain so even after you've experienced the horrors of war first hand. Whatever else McCain was, he was a man of principle. Even if I very rarely agreed with his principles.

Gethsemani:

PsychedelicDiamond:

So that's where his lifelong devotion to peace and diplomacy started.

To be fair, it displays some manner of devotion and principles to be a warhawk and remain so even after you've experienced the horrors of war first hand. Whatever else McCain was, he was a man of principle. Even if I very rarely agreed with his principles.

This is pretty much how I feel about McCain. In addition though I do feel I Owe him a bit of gratitude as well for taking a stand against Torture, Helping remove a serial child rapist from my school and provide funding to help the families recover that tragedy, and for helping millions of Americans keep access to the healthcare they need to survive.

There was plenty I disagreed with him on of course, but there are also many things he has done that I do respect him for and am thankful he did.

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
They do still make Republicans like McCain, spineless. Its the Lincoln model we need to revive.

John McCain is really bad, but let's not pretend Abraham Lincoln would be anywhere near acceptable by today's standards.

Lincoln fought a war for black people. I'd like Republicans now to atleast think cops shooting unarmed black people was bad.

Catnip1024:

Saelune:
He was all talk.

He fought for his country, got captured and tortured for years, turned down the offer to be released (as his father was an admiral) unless his fellow prisoners were also released, all before going on into politics.

And then people have the gall to mock him about the injuries he sustained while doing it.

The guy lived by his principles. He may not have aligned with your own personal perspective, but he personally did more self-sacrifice for the sake of others than pretty much any politician out there.

That immigrant girl who died in a cage is more a war hero than McCain. McCain got to walk away from his cage and live a long life.

His principles sucked.

Adam Jensen:

Saelune:
They do still make Republicans like McCain, spineless.

You can call him many things, but spineless ain't one of them if you know his history.

Saelune:
Its the Lincoln model we need to revive.

They're called Democrats now. The parties basically switched after Republicans adopted the Southern Strategy.

I am surprised to see you defend him. You shouldn't defend him though.

And I know about the second part. He still is the 'Republican' I think we should praise.

Gethsemani:

PsychedelicDiamond:

So that's where his lifelong devotion to peace and diplomacy started.

To be fair, it displays some manner of devotion and principles to be a warhawk and remain so even after you've experienced the horrors of war first hand. Whatever else McCain was, he was a man of principle. Even if I very rarely agreed with his principles.

He had ONE principle, and that was one that encouraged war.

McCain was a relic from a bygone era where you could heavily disagree with the opposing side while still believe that your political rival truly wanted what was best for the country and that he can be trusted with leadership regardless of personal differences. That has now changed so I suppose its somewhat fitting he died in the middle of the Trump era. Trump obviously doesn't care what's best and he obviously can't be trusted with leading a country, and those that support Trump would say the exact same thing about whoever the Democrats decide to put forward. Its interesting to see how the entirely political atmosphere is now unrecognizable from when McCain ran for president. The basic agreement that the other side has merit and has his heart in the right place is now entirely gone no matter what side you're on.

The Republican party as a whole feels rather alien to Europeans thanks to their extreme opposition to basic stuff like healthcare, regulations and LGBT rights so I doubt a President McCain would have gotten much applause, but I also doubt any European would have been troubled by his election either or think he didn't have what it took.

I hear McCain being a war hawk and particularly his votes for the war on Terror is held against him but I find that to be unfair. Pretty much all of America was suffering from mass hysteria at the time and certainly not without reason.

bastardofmelbourne:
But he was a rare specimen of a dying breed, the last of his kind; a Republican with principles.

So when did principles become a synonym for etiquette?

Hades:

I hear McCain being a war hawk and particularly his votes for the war on Terror is held against him but I find that to be unfair. Pretty much all of America was suffering from mass hysteria at the time and certainly not without reason.

You see there's thig thing called principles where...

...shit...

So who here hates that crazy Trump eh!?

Never forget all the good he did.

But never forget all the wrong he did either. Being dead doesn't mean you get a free pass on either.

image

Saelune:
Lincoln fought a war for black people. I'd like Republicans now to atleast think cops shooting unarmed black people was bad.

Lincoln's aim for most of the wear, in his own words, was "to preserve the union". Only later on did he switch to talking about ending slavery as a moral issue worth fighting for. Unless you mean Lincoln as being ahead of the curve of many of his contemporaries, not his absolute position.

IMHO, McCain was not bad for a Republican leader. But that's mostly because they've set the bar pretty low.

Thaluikhain:

Saelune:
Lincoln fought a war for black people. I'd like Republicans now to atleast think cops shooting unarmed black people was bad.

Lincoln's aim for most of the wear, in his own words, was "to preserve the union". Only later on did he switch to talking about ending slavery as a moral issue worth fighting for. Unless you mean Lincoln as being ahead of the curve of many of his contemporaries, not his absolute position.

IMHO, McCain was not bad for a Republican leader. But that's mostly because they've set the bar pretty low.

Lincoln had been anti-slavery before being President. His 'keep the union together' stuff was Obama style 'Lets work together, even if it means working with shitty people' rhetoric. The right of his era said 'fuck you' to that. And where Lincoln and Obama differ, is Lincoln said 'fuck you' right back.

When push came to shove, Lincoln did the right thing and abolished slavery, even if it meant going to war over it. THAT is principled. He did not war for war's sake, that is not admirable, despite being saying that it is of McCain. He warred cause good moral decency said that this was something to fight to the death over, and it was. The Civil War was literally a war over the concept of humanity, not oil.

McCain was a horrible person, and I will not feed into this notion that being dead means we need to bite our tongue and spread this air of fake respect.

If we want to really 'respect the dead', there are tons of immigrants and black people who died cause of Republicans and general bigotry that we could be doing a lot more to respect, but instead people waste it on an old white man who supported a political party that denied those people their humanity.

Don't let how awful Trump is fool us into forgiving McCain (or Bush).

Ninjamedic:

bastardofmelbourne:
But he was a rare specimen of a dying breed, the last of his kind; a Republican with principles.

So when did principles become a synonym for etiquette?

I would argue that McCain did have principles that went beyond etiquette. He was vocally opposed to the use of torture, thanks to his personal experience in Vietnam. He was a dogged supporter of campaign finance reform and regulation, probably as an attempt to atone for his involvement in the Keating scandal in the 80s. He was much more forward-thinking on immigration reform than most Republicans, and was instrumental to the drafting of a doomed immigration reform package that would have provided a path to citizenship for ten to twenty million illegal immigrants. And he quite memorably voted against Bush's 2001 tax cut package - which a dozen or so Democratic senators had crossed the aisle to support - on the basis that he felt it disproportionately benefited the wealthy, and later opposed attempts to fast-track its implementation with the unique argument that it was fiscally irresponsible to cut taxes during a time of war. And a lot of people forget this, but he was a key Republican supporter of the then-controversial decision by Bill Clinton to normalise relations with Vietnam. Believe it or not, the Vietnamese actually kinda like McCain.

I certainly wouldn't say he's without faults. He has many policy positions that I disagree with very strongly, and even when it comes to the principles I outlined above, his track record of actually sticking to them isn't too great. And I think the world will never really forgive him for the pivotal role he played in elevating Sarah Palin to the forefront of Republican politics and mainstreaming her cocktail of race-baiting, showmanship, and thundering ignorance.

Fundamentally - it's just a very rare thing for there to be a conservative politician who's actually willing to make a clear statement of moral principle and then to make a (sometimes unsuccessful) effort to stick to it. Modern conservatism is so completely devoid of any central values or principles that even a guy who maybe only stuck to his guns half the time looks like a fucking Kantian moral philosopher in comparison. It's sad that things have gotten that way, but the reason Republicans like John McCain are so exceptional is precisely because there are not enough Republicans who are like John McCain. Most Republicans are like Mitch McConnell - boneless men, bending whichever way the money is blowing. Is it so wrong to say the US would be better off if the Republicans traded in all their McConnells and replaced them with McCains?

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

Saelune:
They do still make Republicans like McCain, spineless. Its the Lincoln model we need to revive.

John McCain is really bad, but let's not pretend Abraham Lincoln would be anywhere near acceptable by today's standards.

Lincoln fought a war for black people.

No he didn't. Lincoln fought in no war and the vast majority of Unionists didn't do so out of the kindness of their heart to free black people, they just didn't want these slave owning states to secede. I mean he personally wanted the institution to eventually go away before he was elected and southern morons thought basically the same thing as when any Democrat will be voted now. "They are coming for our guns slaves!" He didn't view blacks as equal to whites, didn't support them having full equal rights, and even had this neoliberal view of slavery eventually ending like the founding fathers. He wasn't this benevolent figure to African Americans, he was a flawed and divisive politician who slowly did the right thing in order to hurt the Confederates and never saw the end of this conflict he was at the center of.

On topic: I am not going to look fondly at McCain's legacy as I can acknowledge the many shitty things he has done, but I also have no relief or pleasure for his passing. He will undoubtedly be remembered favorably for his service and likely even some of the few things he has done that weren't awful, but there is a lot of bad to remember. https://splinternews.com/the-myth-of-john-mccain-1828587230

Although I do acknowledge in this present political climate, McCain could easily pass as a moderate/conservative Democrat if he wanted to, much like quite a few Trump hating Republicans are doing now. I mean just like McCain, there is a large number of Democrats that are warhawks and that will gut social safety nets and reduce taxes on millionaires and even go up to the point of them saying shit like " I am willing to work with Trump on..." if they are from a particularly red district or state. That's not really saying much of McCain, but does show off the problems of the other two major parties.

Skatologist:

Saelune:

Seanchaidh:

John McCain is really bad, but let's not pretend Abraham Lincoln would be anywhere near acceptable by today's standards.

Lincoln fought a war for black people.

No he didn?t. Lincoln fought in no war and the vast majority of Unionists didn?t do so out of the kindness of their heart to free black people, they just didn?t want these slave owning states to secede. I mean he personally wanted the institution to eventually go away before he was elected and southern morons thought basically the same thing as when any Democrat will be voted now. ?They are coming for our guns slaves!? He didn?t view blacks as equal to whites, didn?t support them having full equal rights, and even had this neoliberal view of slavery eventually ending like the founding fathers. He wasn?t this benevolent figure to African Americans, he was a flawed and divisive politician who slowly did the right thing in order to hurt the Confederates and never saw the end of this conflict he was at the center of.

On topic: I am not going to look fondly at McCain?s legacy as I can acknowledge the many shitty things he has done, but I also have no relief or pleasure for his passing. He will undoubtedly be remembered favorably for his service and likely even some of the few things he has done that weren?t awful, but there is a lot of bad to remember. https://splinternews.com/the-myth-of-john-mccain-1828587230

Although I do acknowledge in this present political climate, McCain could easily pass as a moderate/conservative Democrat if he wanted to, much like quite a few Trump hating Republicans are doing now. I mean just like McCain, there is a large number of Democrats that are warhawks and that will gut social safety nets and reduce taxes on millionaires and even go up to the point of them saying shit like ? I am willing to work with Trump on...? if they are from a particularly red district or state. That?s not really saying much of McCain, but does show off the problems of the other two major parties.

In this post, you condemn Lincoln and condone McCain. If we are going to pretend that McCain had something to respect despite his faults, why not Lincoln? Ya know, the guy who actually did some good for this country?

bastardofmelbourne:

I certainly wouldn't say he's without faults.

Unending wars since the early 2000s while campaigning for more, the destruction of the 4th amendment with the Patriot Act and paving the way for the financial crash by supporting financial deregulation aren't exactly what I'd downplay by referring to them as faults.

Foe one thing, calling it a fault is claiming they weren't by design.

Ninjamedic:
Unending wars since the early 2000s while campaigning for more, the destruction of the 4th amendment with the Patriot Act and paving the way for the financial crash by supporting financial deregulation aren't exactly what I'd downplay by referring to them as faults.

I'm not sure if it's a point for or against him, but he also flip-flopped on financial deregulation.

Ninjamedic:
Foe one thing, calling it a fault is claiming they weren't by design.

I don't think McCain intended to crash the US economy. I think he subscribed to a flawed economic policy, one that was eventually proven to be flawed, and which he eventually admitted was flawed. Altogether, I'd call that a fault.

Look, I know how people feel about him around here. I don't want to get balls-deep into an argument over the many apparent failings of the recently deceased. I know he's not a saint. I know people get grumpy to see McCain showered with superlative praise for his occasional displays of basic human decency. I'm just saying that he was halfway decent most of the time, and that even being halfway decent is goddamn fucking rare in modern conservatism.

Saelune:
In this post, you condemn Lincoln and condone McCain.

No I don't. I correct your perception of Lincoln being this great guy who loved black people like I would for any leftist worth their salt saying McCain was good without the caveat of "for a spineless Republican who says he wants to do the right thing but almost never does". That article I link even goes into it. Also just because Lincoln took right courses of action doesn't mean he cared about the wellbeing of black people above maintaining the union. He was no abolitionist radical despite what the South thought.

If we are going to pretend that McCain had something to respect despite his faults, why not Lincoln?

There is for both, I just don't think saying "Republicans should be as anti racist as Lincoln" is beneficial because it's not Lincoln is less racist than some Republicans now, most specifically McCain. Also just name one good thing I said about McCain. I mean, I am willing to do so now. Any politician taking an anti torture stance like McCain in a country with a sizable population thinking torture works, is justified, and even necessary should be acknowledged for not being complete shit for that reason. Low bar, yes, but it isn't as if there aren't Democrats that can even pass that bar.

Ya know, the guy who actually did some good for this country?

Doing the right thing and doing something for the right reasons are two different things and just because Lincoln did the right thing doesn't excuse his actual positions or why he did it. He should be remembered fondly and congradulated for keeping the country together and opposing the institution more harshly as the war continued, but to imply he was some progressive hero instead of at best center center left for his time is doing him a disservice as a man and not a myth.

bastardofmelbourne:
I'm just saying that he was halfway decent most of the time, and that even being halfway decent is goddamn fucking rare in modern conservatism.

Here's the thing about that: I have plenty of Conservatives back home I can point to. Simon Coveney is a good example, watching the brexit talks.

You're attempting to say that he was a rarity when he was one of the people who acted to turn US republicanism into what it is now. That's what baffles me.

Ninjamedic:

bastardofmelbourne:
I'm just saying that he was halfway decent most of the time, and that even being halfway decent is goddamn fucking rare in modern conservatism.

Here's the thing about that: I have plenty of Conservatives back home I can point to. Simon Coveney is a good example, watching the brexit talks.

I don't know much about Irish politics, but in Australia we have a pretty severe dysfunction within our conservative party, where far-right ideologues like Abbott and Dutton periodically try to hijack the entire fucking government on the basis of some crazy mixture of pseudo-racist claptrap and climate change denial. That's what modern conservatism looks like to me; a once-proud animal, now sick and rabid, slowly cannibalising itself in a senile haze.

If you have conservatives in your national politics who you can respect as human beings, then more power to you. The rest of the world seems to be going downhill. Malcolm Turnbull gets pushed out and replaced with a more acceptably conservative figurehead. Theresa May has to deal with half her Cabinet resigning because she's hesitant to hurl her country into economic collapse and food shortages. John McCain gets brain cancer and dies while Donald Trump coasts to the White House on a shitstorm of incompetence and brazen corruption. It's all just depressing.

Ninjamedic:
You're attempting to say that he was a rarity when he was one of the people who acted to turn US republicanism into what it is now. That's what baffles me.

It's not that baffling; I alluded to it myself when I said I find it difficult to forgive him for Sarah Palin. John McCain was one of the architects of his own dishonour. That's tragic, but it's not logically inconsistent; the human capacity for accidentally fucking things up beyond repair is, sadly, without limit.

Saelune:
In this post, you condemn Lincoln and condone McCain. If we are going to pretend that McCain had something to respect despite his faults, why not Lincoln? Ya know, the guy who actually did some good for this country?

Lincoln also wanted to return all of the blacks in America to Africa or to move them to colonize Central America. He didn't want the "races" intermixing. He wanted the U.S. for whites.

He knew it couldn't be accomplished--too many blacks--but if he could have he would have deported all of the blacks to Africa. Many of whom were descended from blacks who'd been in the U.S. for centuries i.e. much longer than most whites. He openly called for freedmen to deport themselves to their faces.

Saints are very rare creatures and the further back you go in history the less saintly folks tend to be to the modern perspective because people were, as always, creatures of their own time, however forward thinking they may have been on certain matters.

At 81 years of age John McCain lived through World War II (my mother is 81 years old and though she was a child at the time and is now rather senile she still remembers life during WW II), the Korean War, fought in the Vietnam War and suffered as a POW. Like all Americans who remember the Cold War--including myself--he endured the reality that a human error could lead to nuclear genocide without warning at any moment (which we now know almost happened several times).

He lived though the Civil Rights era--which was far, far, far more terrible, confrontational, and violent than what we're experiencing now within the U.S. He went from military service to public service and labored to do his best for his country rather than to serve his own interests--a truth that can be easily acknowledged in his case while being inapplicable to most politicians.

Modern day perspectives and judgements can and are being harshly directed towards John McCain. I'm not surprised in the least at this. But I'm old enough to remember some of what McCain and the country went through in the decades before most Escapists were born so I'm less inclined towards damning him for not being a perfect human being.

He never claimed to be such. He readily acknowledged his faults and failures. What matters is that he strove to do good and managed to indeed do far more good than harm. And he did it with a sense of duty towards others.

Few of us will likely have earned such an epitaph by the time we die.

Thaluikhain:

Saelune:
Lincoln fought a war for black people. I'd like Republicans now to atleast think cops shooting unarmed black people was bad.

Lincoln's aim for most of the wear, in his own words, was "to preserve the union". Only later on did he switch to talking about ending slavery as a moral issue worth fighting for. Unless you mean Lincoln as being ahead of the curve of many of his contemporaries, not his absolute position.

IMHO, McCain was not bad for a Republican leader. But that's mostly because they've set the bar pretty low.

Also, it should be noted, the war didn't even actually end slavery. Only in places where there was active and organized revolt, and even then some states didn't end up as if a hugfest for either the recently liberated or the still indentured.

The reason for the war in the North was preserving the Union, the reasonfor the war in the South was to keep using slaves ... and this disposition was primarily created due to an economic imbalance between the industrial capacities of North and South. But even given the regressive technological state of the South, slavery wasn't exactly doing them many favours. In fact there's an argument that basically the only thing that slavery accomplished was making cotton and tobacco relatively cheap.

And before anybody actually says 'Preserving the Union' = 'War of Northern Aggression' ... the South fired the first shot in anger ...

The South were effectively rebels ... I still fail to see why such a claim is considered contentious at this point.

"We demand to split off from the union."

"Um, no?"

"Rargh, garrr, -boom- ..."

It was a rebellion against the Union.

Honestly, I fail to see why certain people have a problem calling it a rebellion to begin with. On that point alone does not exactly dictate the morality of the war. Rebellions often happen for good reasons ... and let's face it, 'U.S.' politics of the time were a shitshow and I can see legitimate reasons why people might have wanted to form their own union disconnected to it.

Just only the reasons for the rebellion and wanting to split offfrom the Union give rise to metaethical debate. Not that it was in fact a rebellion alone.

All I can say is he seemed better then the majority of republicans. However, I'm not sure if that's because he was better or because they have become such a shitshow.

 Pages 1 2 3 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here