At What Point Does Acceptance Become Enabling?

I think all can agree that the universal tipping point for accepting someone's choices is when those choices impact others against their will, but what about choices that harm the chooser?

At what point does society or the authorities get to say "Enough." and intervene?

This can cover directly harmful things such as alcohol over-consumption or the ingestion of illegal substances such as Meth. Or even extend to choices such as having far more children than an individual can hope to support, relying on the state to care for them.

It can also extend to humoring someone's beliefs (the line between religion and kooky cult), or how someone identifies in spite of the obvious (transgender to otherkin) - is that blurred or is there a distinction?

Is there a point also when intervention moves from something society has a right to take, should it desire, or intervention now becomes an obligation of society.

Where do you draw your lines?

How is acceptance of trans people 'enabling'? Oh Christ, you're one of those conversion therapy types, aren't you?

Addendum_Forthcoming:
How is acceptance of trans people 'enabling'? Oh Christ, you're one of those conversion therapy types, aren't you?

Well, this thread is off to a wonderful start now, isn't it? Mike Pence is probably monitoring the thread right now. Just in case.

image

Oh, halfway through reading presents that was the direction this was aiming for. Not sure why I'm even surprised anymore.

So... Are we going to force Trans people to wear certain clothes that match their chromosomes? Or genitals? Becuase they don't have to be the same.

Here's an interesting question: should Trans people be forced to be accountable to sexual partners, making sure they know, before sex, that they used to be a different gender? Becuase some people believe that Chromosomes determines gender, and even if the partner has the appropriate genitalia, the fact that they have the wrong chromosome means that they have had homosexual relations. Is that damaging to the 'victim'

trunkage:
So... Are we going to force Trans people to wear certain clothes that match their chromosomes?

just little triangles on their clothes

The question becomes for me... When do we draw the line at all body modification when we're talking about how people feel.

Hey, skinny 5'6 guy. I know women/men don't look at you. And I know you might feel inferior because modern society makes any man under 5'10 feel like a failure at life. But hey, don't lift those weights. It's unnatural. Just learn to be ok with the feeling of disappointment and the throngs of women/men who will pass you by.

Yo, Barely A-cup girl. Wow. Society REALLY seems to focus on breasts, huh? Also seems like dates for you are few and far between. But hey, I have good news for you. This is how life made you! So don't do anything to rectify what you might not be comfortable with. Because we know you have small breasts. And that's how you should stay.

Hey, woman who gave birth but your linea alba never healed correctly. You might be disheartened that bringing life into this world has changed your figure. Your stomach isn't healing by its self, but this is how life is now. Learn to accept it.

Greetings, Mr. Horrible Burn Victim. You're alive. You're still here! You made it! You're breathing fine, you're ambulating... So, 3/4th of your face is burned scar tissue. That's superficial. But more over, that's how you are now. This is your reality. No matter how you feel on the inside, be ok with what we all see you as, because we've decided that's how you should be: How we see you.

It's honestly no one's business of what someone wants to do with their own body. If someone is of sane mind, our personal 'morality' has nothing to do with their very reality. If a person was born in the body of the man, hates it, knows inside that she is a woman, gets the surgery, and becomes a happy, functioning adult... I praise her. Because she did what she had to do to find peace in this life. We all should be so lucky.

There is a very distinct line that should never be crossed and that line is "is it fucking with someone else?" If the answer is no then have at it, get a tail grafted on your butt, have your dick cut in two and get a tattoo of Betty White doing the hula on your face. As long as it isn't directly impacting someone else or threatening them go nuts.

CM156:

Well, this thread is off to a wonderful start now, isn't it? Mike Pence is probably monitoring the thread right now. Just in case.

image

I've run into this argument before, I'm 'calling it likes I sees it' ... because inevitably it always boils down to some level of teachers should allow other kids to beat the shit out of them, or ostracize them, and not actually extending one's duty of care to protect them as much as those same parents would demand I would do for their kids.

I've been down this road numerous times.

Worgen:
There is a very distinct line that should never be crossed and that line is "is it fucking with someone else?" If the answer is no then have at it, get a tail grafted on your butt, have your dick cut in two and get a tattoo of Betty White doing the hula on your face. As long as it isn't directly impacting someone else or threatening them go nuts.

... I honestly feel if people could get a working tail grafted to their butts, they would. Tail fashion would be interesting.

And an Aside. From Xsjadoblayde's Guitar Playing Bear, Trunkage's Roy Mustang looking like he's about to Drop dat Verse, Undeadsuitor's Valley-girl Robot avatar, my Lucio, Worgen's Miguel Strumming away, and Addendum's Rarity rocking out... it looks like our Avatars are throwing a music festival and I'm a little jealous.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
How is acceptance of trans people 'enabling'? Oh Christ, you're one of those conversion therapy types, aren't you?

I never said what MY beliefs were.

I am all for transitional surgery for those old enough to consent. But I also know that others hold beliefs that it should be illegal to do so. I can admit something is a topic of discussion even if I fall squarely on one side of it.

ObsidianJones:

Worgen:
There is a very distinct line that should never be crossed and that line is "is it fucking with someone else?" If the answer is no then have at it, get a tail grafted on your butt, have your dick cut in two and get a tattoo of Betty White doing the hula on your face. As long as it isn't directly impacting someone else or threatening them go nuts.

... I honestly feel if people could get a working tail grafted to their butts, they would. Tail fashion would be interesting.

And an Aside. From Xsjadoblayde's Guitar Playing Bear, Trunkage's Roy Mustang looking like he's about to Drop dat Verse, Undeadsuitor's Valley-girl Robot avatar, my Lucio, Worgen's Miguel Strumming away, and Addendum's Rarity rocking out... it looks like our Avatars are throwing a music festival and I'm a little jealous.

Abomination clearly looks like he's from some trash metal concert. Don't go exluding ppl. Roy likes some trash

ObsidianJones:

Worgen:
There is a very distinct line that should never be crossed and that line is "is it fucking with someone else?" If the answer is no then have at it, get a tail grafted on your butt, have your dick cut in two and get a tattoo of Betty White doing the hula on your face. As long as it isn't directly impacting someone else or threatening them go nuts.

... I honestly feel if people could get a working tail grafted to their butts, they would. Tail fashion would be interesting.

And an Aside. From Xsjadoblayde's Guitar Playing Bear, Trunkage's Roy Mustang looking like he's about to Drop dat Verse, Undeadsuitor's Valley-girl Robot avatar, my Lucio, Worgen's Miguel Strumming away, and Addendum's Rarity rocking out... it looks like our Avatars are throwing a music festival and I'm a little jealous.

Oh cmon now, you are clearly our Dj that we have for some reason.

Well, the OP turned out exactly as expected from the title.

Obviously not a libertarian.

Worgen:

Oh cmon now, you are clearly our Dj that we have for some reason.

I think he's the keyboardist

trunkage:

Worgen:

Oh cmon now, you are clearly our Dj that we have for some reason.

I think he's the keyboardist

We just need Scarim Coral, now.

Abomination:
I think all can agree that the universal tipping point for accepting someone's choices is when those choices impact others against their will, but what about choices that harm the chooser?

This is a HUGE topic. Things like "sin taxes" (alcohol & tobacco duties) or prohibition, seatbelt enforcement, etc.

Seatbelts are actually an interesting topic. Seatbelts were made mandatory to be put in cars, but use of them by car users was very low (with corresponding injury and mortality). Use of seatbelts by car users only rose heavily when the state made it punishable to not use them.

The argument from this is sometimes that better outcomes for people can emerge from non-acceptance of their choices. However, it is obviously a very difficult topic, because at some point it gets to bullshit and abuse, like conversion therapy.

trunkage:

Worgen:

Oh cmon now, you are clearly our Dj that we have for some reason.

I think he's the keyboardist

Maybe, I actually have no idea about his back story. In the gif it looks like his spinning a couple discs though.

Agema:

The argument from this is sometimes that better outcomes for people can emerge from non-acceptance of their choices. However, it is obviously a very difficult topic, because at some point it gets to bullshit and abuse, like conversion therapy.

They're not even relative. There is no sliding scale here. The reason why we mandated seat belts is because people can't be 100% trusted driving a metric ton of metal, glass and plastic on a bit of bitumen surrounded by other moving blocks of metal, glass and plastic.

How exactly does being LGBTQ fit on that supposed scale? Unless being gay or queer alone can give you triple digit horsepower...

If it does I got cheated in terms of superpowers, then.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
How is acceptance of trans people 'enabling'??

How about when idiot parents are "transitioning" their 5 year old son because he played with a Barbie doll that one time?
A lot of ignorant overly progressive parents do this kind of stuff. Meanwhile, medical professionals say that 95% of gender confusion disappears as soon as the child goes through puberty so doing this to a prepubescent child is child abuse.
In the UK, for example, gender reassignment therapy is available from age 12 which is scary.

Vanilla ISIS:

How about when idiot parents are "transitioning" their 5 year old son because he played with a Barbie doll that one time?

You do understand that's not how it works, right?

A lot of ignorant overly progressive parents do this kind of stuff. Meanwhile, medical professionals say that 95% of gender confusion disappears as soon as the child goes through puberty so doing this to a prepubescent child is child abuse.
In the UK, for example, gender reassignment therapy is available from age 12 which is scary.

A: No, it's not. For starters puberty blockers may be prescribed if significant distress is present.
B: By 'gender reassignment therapy' you mean surgical options inclusive? Well, no it's not.
C: Why exactly is it scary?
D: How the fuck is that 'enabling'? Do people ever look up words in a dictionary?

With improvements in diagnostic evaluations, age is kind of irrelevant. For starters, to qualify under any diagnosis of gender dysphoria, 'confusion' is not a criterion. Playing with Barbie dolls does not a criterion of gender dysphoria make.

There has to be evidence of significant impairment or distress. People are not going to diagnose your children with gender dysphoria if they just so happen to see them playing with Barbies or Tonka trucks. That's stupid.

Vanilla ISIS:

Addendum_Forthcoming:
How is acceptance of trans people 'enabling'??

How about when idiot parents are "transitioning" their 5 year old son because he played with a Barbie doll that one time?
A lot of ignorant overly progressive parents do this kind of stuff. Meanwhile, medical professionals say that 95% of gender confusion disappears as soon as the child goes through puberty so doing this to a prepubescent child is child abuse.
In the UK, for example, gender reassignment therapy is available from age 12 which is scary.

Surely they have to consult doctors before that? Or at least should be required to.

Thaluikhain:

Surely they have to consult doctors before that? Or at least should be required to.

Yes, they do. By multiple people no less. Moreover, not simply because a child is seen playing with a Barbie. That is some Yellow Peril-level fear mongering. Basically any accurate diagnosis of gender dysphoria requires distress or impairment on behalf of other extant criterion to make that evaluation.

Giving puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones to a 12 year old for playing with barbies is ... so fucking outside the realms of best practice it's like saying doctors will throw benzodiazepines at someone just because they offhandedly say they're feeling a bit stressed out at work.

I'm sure there might be one doctor in the world that might do it ... but then again, hardly best practice.

Thaluikhain:

Vanilla ISIS:

Addendum_Forthcoming:
How is acceptance of trans people 'enabling'??

How about when idiot parents are "transitioning" their 5 year old son because he played with a Barbie doll that one time?
A lot of ignorant overly progressive parents do this kind of stuff. Meanwhile, medical professionals say that 95% of gender confusion disappears as soon as the child goes through puberty so doing this to a prepubescent child is child abuse.
In the UK, for example, gender reassignment therapy is available from age 12 which is scary.

Surely they have to consult doctors before that? Or at least should be required to.

They have to consult like 12 doctors over years and hundreds of miles, don't let outright lies and falsification try to pretend that this is some overwhelming thing sweeping across the nation

this is on some million mom facebook FWD:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE: level bullshit

So, this thread's gonna get locked.

Vanilla ISIS:
How about when idiot parents are "transitioning" their 5 year old son because he played with a Barbie doll that one time?

Transitioning by definition of an expression of interior gender identity. You cannot "transition" someone else, even in inverted commas.

Gender non-conformity in young children is not a form of "confusion", either it's a form of experimentation and play or it's symptomatic of a transgender identity. Either way, it's harmless to indulge.

Vanilla ISIS:
In the UK, for example, gender reassignment therapy is available from age 12 which is scary.

No, it isn't.

It's scary if you believe that all children are heterosexual and cisgender from birth and trans people only exist because "overly progressive parents" force children to be trans as part of the sinister trans agenda.

Imagine living in role full time at age 12, at which age a child is attending high school. At that age, it is impossible for a child to actually "pass" because so much of a child's life is built around communal activities. Do you think a self-consciously trans child aged 12 is going to be able to persist in that life without an enormous degree of personal awareness of their own identity?

That is the reality of the situation. At age 12, a significant group of trans people will already be consciously aware of their gender identity and will require specialised treatment and management of symptoms like dysphoria, as well as support with coping with the transphobia a child of that age will inevitably face. Now, that can be as simple as talking therapy, but in a few cases where there is a very high degree of certainty puberty blockers are reversable with few side effects, and will make a trans person's life much, much easier in the long run (as well as making it much cheaper to treat them). Gender reassignment surgery is never performed on children.

The idea that we should be forcing people to go through unwanted puberty, not based on sound medical reasoning, but because you find it "scary" is utter trash. It's the kind of obvious, knee jerk "think of the chilluns!" response which people who just don't like trans people use to hide the fact that they just don't like trans people.

Unfortunately, the British press is full of people who just don't like trans people. So we have to deal with this nonsense. Sorry, rest of the world.

At what point is it okay to call something "a mistake" by purely subjective measures? Even something like a ugly full-face tattoo isn't objectively a bad call -- it's other people who won't give that person a job.

This is the essence hanging over a billion petty arguments. However, people aren't really free to like what they like or "you do you". Our "free" choices are determined by our past, background, and beyond. Like, I have a relative who's a total bum (for the time being) that spends his days playing video games and watching Twitch, Netflix, anime etc. He is totally free to do so and isn't hurting anybody, but being critical of this even to the point of calling his choices mistakes is fair in my opinion. If you care about somebody, do you want them to actualize their illusions of freedom, or realize that they've ended up in a crappy place?

Agema:

Seatbelts are actually an interesting topic. Seatbelts were made mandatory to be put in cars, but use of them by car users was very low (with corresponding injury and mortality). Use of seatbelts by car users only rose heavily when the state made it punishable to not use them.

The argument from this is sometimes that better outcomes for people can emerge from non-acceptance of their choices.

Interestingly, bicycle helmet enforcement has a negative effect on cyclists' safety. Not because a helmet doesn't protect one's head when falling, but because it increases the risk of crashing in the first place.

evilthecat:
So, this thread's gonna get locked.

 

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked