Cop breaks into black man's house and murders him, put on administrative leave.

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Saelune:
Her going to the wrong apartment cause she is tired? Acceptable, understandable. Everything after that is not and she is 100% guilty for her own actions.

Yes, she is. Precisely no-one on this forum thus far has disagreed with that, just like no-one thinks ploughing into a pedestrian whilst drunk at the wheel is sufficient reason to evade prosecution.

Agema:

Saelune:
Her going to the wrong apartment cause she is tired? Acceptable, understandable. Everything after that is not and she is 100% guilty for her own actions.

Yes, she is. Precisely no-one on this forum thus far has disagreed with that, just like no-one thinks ploughing into a pedestrian whilst drunk at the wheel is sufficient reason to evade prosecution.

You have seen the lengths people will go to defend awful behavior.

This whole issue is due to that, where cops blatantly murder people and get off scot-free.

Yes, we both want to believe that no one could be that stupid or terrible, but they keep showing up.

Baffle2:

Palindromemordnilap:

Baffle2:
Not that we know whether that's the case here, and not that that would change culpability. But it would justify finding out why people are allowed to carry guns and get that strung out at the same time.

Is there a reason that US police don't keep their guns at the station?

That whole Second Amendment thing I'd imagine

I mean the gun they carry in a professional capacity -- I understand they might own a personal firearm (though I don't think people should), but I'd have thought the police-issued one should only be carried while on duty.

But whats the overlap between "This gun the police department gave me is to be used in my professional capacity as an officer" and "This gun the police department gave me is my gun" and they feel they can carry it everywhere regardless of whether they're on duty or not

Saelune:
Her going to the wrong apartment cause she is tired? Acceptable, understandable. Everything after that is not and she is 100% guilty for her own actions.

You know what the weirdest thing I've ever done was? Consoling a woman who had stabbed her own infant baby to death with a pair of scissors during a psychotic episode. I've also lent a sympathetic ear to a man who was heart broken because he had repeatedly abused his wife, due to abuse in his own childhood.

I can't say that I sympathized with either of the two, since I think that both of their actions are absolutely despicable and that even with mitigating circumstances they are still responsible for their own actions. Yet talking to them I could see why they did what they did and I can feel some degree of empathy for them because it is pretty damn likely that other people (me included) would have done the same in their situation. That doesn't make it right or fine, but it makes it human.

The cop that did this should probably go to jail, or receive some sort of psychiatric care, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to see past what she did and see why she did it. Maybe she's just a raging asshole who refused to see that she was on the wrong floor. Maybe there's something much more tragic like substance abuse or overworking that caused her to act like she did. It won't make her less guilty, but it will make the whole thing more understandable.

And we can always stand to understand the world we live in a little better.

Gethsemani:

Saelune:
Her going to the wrong apartment cause she is tired? Acceptable, understandable. Everything after that is not and she is 100% guilty for her own actions.

You know what the weirdest thing I've ever done was? Consoling a woman who had stabbed her own infant baby to death with a pair of scissors during a psychotic episode. I've also lent a sympathetic ear to a man who was heart broken because he had repeatedly abused his wife, due to abuse in his own childhood.

I can't say that I sympathized with either of the two, since I think that both of their actions are absolutely despicable and that even with mitigating circumstances they are still responsible for their own actions. Yet talking to them I could see why they did what they did and I can feel some degree of empathy for them because it is pretty damn likely that other people (me included) would have done the same in their situation. That doesn't make it right or fine, but it makes it human.

The cop that did this should probably go to jail, or receive some sort of psychiatric care, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to see past what she did and see why she did it. Maybe she's just a raging asshole who refused to see that she was on the wrong floor. Maybe there's something much more tragic like substance abuse or overworking that caused her to act like she did. It won't make her less guilty, but it will make the whole thing more understandable.

And we can always stand to understand the world we live in a little better.

They can get in line behind all the people who deserve empathy who DIDNT do bad things.

I am just tired of giving the bad people the benefit of the doubt while people so quickly condemn people for doing nothing wrong.

I am just being karmic balance to that bullshit.

The cop is not the victim, the man she murdered is.

Saelune:
I am just being karmic balance to that bullshit.

Thank you for service to this noble cause, Thanos.

OP: Manslaughter is likely the correct charge.

CM156:

Saelune:
I am just being karmic balance to that bullshit.

Thank you for service to this noble cause, Thanos.

OP: Manslaughter is likely the correct charge.

What type of manslaughter? I can't imagine it'll be Involuntary Manslaughter. Maybe Criminally Negligent? Imperfect Self-Defense Maybe?

Silentpony:

CM156:

Saelune:
I am just being karmic balance to that bullshit.

Thank you for service to this noble cause, Thanos.

OP: Manslaughter is likely the correct charge.

What type of manslaughter? I can't imagine it'll be Involuntary Manslaughter. Maybe Criminally Negligent? Imperfect Self-Defense Maybe?

I'm afraid I don't know the language of that state's statute.

Baffle2:

I mean the gun they carry in a professional capacity -- I understand they might own a personal firearm (though I don't think people should), but I'd have thought the police-issued one should only be carried while on duty.

I concur ... honestly, if Americans want to carry so much heat they double as a walking barbecue, treat it like cars and heavy machinery. You're not allowed to carry a loaded gun with a BAC over .05, or under the effects of certain drugs or heavy fatigue... and police officers can't just carry a loaded service firearm off rostered hours.

She's been charged with manslaughter by the way: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45468083

So, she has been charged appropriately, and the article describes 'the black man' as...

The victim was a devout Christian who graduated from a university in Arkansas and was working for multinational PricewaterhouseCoopers.

Cant wait to see how certain people twist this into their 'all cops are evil, the media is pro-cop racists' tale.

Have to admit I feel uncomfortable watching this. I'm glad she's being charged, but I've been burned by the blue wall of silence before.

Elijin:
So, she has been charged appropriately, and the article describes 'the black man' as...

The victim was a devout Christian who graduated from a university in Arkansas and was working for multinational PricewaterhouseCoopers.

Cant wait to see how certain people twist this into their 'all cops are evil, the media is pro-cop racists' tale.

What about the "Forget this one undeniably horrible incident, let's focus on black on black killing to highlight that something is wrong with them" twist?

Because you don't have to wait. Fox News Commenters have you covered.

And if anything, it is mindsets like these that gives the average citizen more pause that the cops themselves. United, the police would feel more pressure to be open. With the populous as fractured as it is, why should cops be transparent if the majority supports them infallibly?

Elijin:
So, she has been charged appropriately, and the article describes 'the black man' as...

The victim was a devout Christian who graduated from a university in Arkansas and was working for multinational PricewaterhouseCoopers.

Cant wait to see how certain people twist this into their 'all cops are evil, the media is pro-cop racists' tale.

I cant wait to see how people twist this into 'problem solved, now stop complaining'.

ObsidianJones:

Elijin:
So, she has been charged appropriately, and the article describes 'the black man' as...

The victim was a devout Christian who graduated from a university in Arkansas and was working for multinational PricewaterhouseCoopers.

Cant wait to see how certain people twist this into their 'all cops are evil, the media is pro-cop racists' tale.

What about the "Forget this one undeniably horrible incident, let's focus on black on black killing to highlight that something is wrong with them" twist?

Because you don't have to wait. Fox News Commenters have you covered.

And if anything, it is mindsets like these that gives the average citizen more pause that the cops themselves. United, the police would feel more pressure to be open. With the populous as fractured as it is, why should cops be transparent if the majority supports them infallibly?

If you cant see that comment is about a single person arguing a stance NO ONE HERE was taking, then you should read before talking. Because Saelune spent this whole thread having an argument with a theoretical other, and we were all just the dirty, cop defending bigot's defending racism and championing cops, in spite of literally no one here being on the officers side.

Saelune:
'She was a scared frail little woman, he was a big scary black man, she is innocent'

If you take "black" out, it still usually works that way. A woman generally has to be excessive and caught actively planning to deceive law enforcement (think Jodi Arias) to get found guilty and get the kind of punishments we give men.

Elijin:

ObsidianJones:

Elijin:
So, she has been charged appropriately, and the article describes 'the black man' as...

Cant wait to see how certain people twist this into their 'all cops are evil, the media is pro-cop racists' tale.

What about the "Forget this one undeniably horrible incident, let's focus on black on black killing to highlight that something is wrong with them" twist?

Because you don't have to wait. Fox News Commenters have you covered.

And if anything, it is mindsets like these that gives the average citizen more pause that the cops themselves. United, the police would feel more pressure to be open. With the populous as fractured as it is, why should cops be transparent if the majority supports them infallibly?

If you cant see that comment is about a single person arguing a stance NO ONE HERE was taking, then you should read before talking. Because Saelune spent this whole thread having an argument with a theoretical other, and we were all just the dirty, cop defending bigot's defending racism and championing cops, in spite of literally no one here being on the officers side.

And don't forget that 'everyone I disagree with I think is a Nazi'.

Elijin:

If you cant see that comment is about a single person arguing a stance NO ONE HERE was taking, then you should read before talking. Because Saelune spent this whole thread having an argument with a theoretical other, and we were all just the dirty, cop defending bigot's defending racism and championing cops, in spite of literally no one here being on the officers side.

So, in your mind, a conversation should only be about the topics you feel are relevant? No matter if the topic at hand has different viewpoints than just the ones you seem valid?

I don't engage in inflammatory methods of speech like some, as I have no need. But likewise do I suggest you read what I'm saying. There's more to this than just cop hating and media lying. There is race-baiting and misrepresentation. Things that crop up whenever these situations come up.

As they would have inevitably came up now.

Like it or not, it's apart of the conversation. Police get to do what they do because of citizen support. Obvious slam dunk verdicts get upset because of personal bias. And it's already showing its head.

Pretending it doesn't exist and not understanding why a not-guilty verdict might be handed in the future is folly.

Weren't you the one who said we should look at the situation from all angles?

Elijin:

It's an excuse if it's being argued that she doesn't deserve to be punished, neither of us are doing that. This is a major problem with people who see the world in such black and white terms. You know what helps shit like this from happening again? Understanding what happens, and why. If you're not interested in understanding a problem, and just want harsh consequences to be dolled out based on outrage, you're just creating future problems, not solving current ones.

Yup, you were. Ok, well once again, if a biased group in the jury (like these fox news commentators) who rule on their bias against minorities and in favor of the police, that will create more schisms between the populous and the police. That's bad and we have to understand the pit falls that will come with that.

ObsidianJones:
snip

Have you followed the other half of this conversation? Because Im not pretending there isnt an issue prevalent with police shootings and a failure to deliver consequences, especially in the case of the victim being black.

I am however, annoyed that almost every post from Saelune attacked anyone who didnt instantly demand this cops head, and carried on like we were all saying things that only took place in her head.

Elijin:

Xprimentyl:
snip

Silentpony:
snip

Apparently neither of you have ever reached, or seen someone reach that 'to the bone' level of exhaustion? Where the brain just sort of goes into autopilot. In my youth I had a housemate who worked double shifts (against labour laws), at night he would come home, have something to eat, check in, then pass out on the couch. Each morning he would have no recollection of even leaving work, let alone everything after that. So yeah, I can see someone in that state getting home, or in this case, almost home, then in their confused state, reacting in shock... add a weapon to that situation, and things get real fucked up.

But here's the kicker: That's not an excuse, that's an explanation.

I don't suggest it to absolve her of guilt, I offer it as an attempt to make sense of this. I actually think it's super important to consider the option because someone in that state should not be driving, operating machinery or in control of a weapon. And if they were in that state, they were an active duty police officer, in or near that state just a short time before. So not only should they be punished, but their senior officer should be punished, and the station house(?) should be investigated to ensure that's not a normal thing. Because the idea that cops might be being stretched past their limits by questionable shift schedules is terrifying. Not only should that not be happening, but someone should be seeing people in these states, and taking action to take them off duty and take their damn weapon away.

All that assumes my theory has any grounds. Though, if she was under the influence of drugs or alcohol I would still call for the same investigation: She was on duty, very recently, in that state. Someone above her should also be going down.

For the record, I personally have experienced that bone-level of exhaustion working security in the banking industry for 3 months without a day off. I leap-frogged 8 hour shifts Monday through Friday (work 1st, sleep 2nd, work 3rd, sleep 1st, work 2nd, etc., etc.) with 12 hours shifts (7am to 7pm) on Sundays and Saturdays. I lost all concept of time and my biology was thrown completely off, so yeah, I KNOW that kind of tired and overworked, but I don't ASSUME it every time a cop finds a reason to kill an innocent person.

To those arguing that the cop's actions might be explainable-if-regrettable, reverse the roles here: tired black man comes home after a long night's work, approaches the wrong apartment door thinking it his own, and a split second of confusion later, white female cop, rightful tenant of the apartment, is shot dead by his hand. Or what if, in the original situation, that black man was able to defend himself and shot the cop dead in genuine self-defense. Would he receive the same tacit benefit of the doubt? The same consideration that his actions might have been explainable-if-regrettable? Do you think he'd have been afforded any kind of "leave" while the system investigated and tightened up the appropriate charges? Or is it more likely he'd find himself in a cell that same night, a 'cop killer' surrounded by cops?

I'd like to think some of you'd be able to throw this "coulda, woulda, shoulda" rationality out the window in lieu of the reality we all share and respond honestly, but I already know how some of you might answer; it's a hypothetical, so you'll answer with whatever logical, reasonable response that only serves best to remove any weight from my point, but we all know the innate bias that is more than prevalent in our society. You know had a black man killed a white cop on any side of any hypothetical, aside from personally being present at the time of the crime to witness evidence to the contrary, you'd be hard pressed to believe or even entertain the idea that there might be a rational explanation for the incident; it'd go right into the "another black person commits another violent crime" folder and tossed into the "No Surprise There" section of the annals of your mind.

The point is, even if this particular situation is completely and sadly above board and that cop had no malicious intent or bias, the de facto benefit of the doubt cops enjoy is the same across the board for all of them and is the figurative mother's skirt behind which the truly bad and biased cops are allowed hide in plain sight. THAT is the problem people like Saelune and myself are pointing out; not that you don't agree she should suffer some retribution, but that the whole "everyone calm down until we consider all the facts" mentality is NOT the one multiple innocent minorities on the receiving end of excessive/lethal police force are privy to, least of all from cops, from the media, and from the general public with their multitude of preconceived notions fed from the teats of the two former.

But hell, this is just what happens on the internet: divisive issue comes up, someone feels obligated to take the role of contrarian and lay on their sword as they attempt to make the other side out to be irrational nut jobs, right?

Elijin:

ObsidianJones:
snip

Have you followed the other half of this conversation? Because Im not pretending there isnt an issue prevalent with police shootings and a failure to deliver consequences, especially in the case of the victim being black.

I am however, annoyed that almost every post from Saelune attacked anyone who didnt instantly demand this cops head, and carried on like we were all saying things that only took place in her head.

Ok, that's enough.

Because that's patently untrue.

At the most, Baffle had a discussion with Saelune, and Saelune had a discussion with you. You might not have the same point of view, and by all means go ahead. But for the most part, Saelune has been calling for the police not to protect this officer and let her actually experience Law and Order like we all would.

Saelune is making statements about how Police have acted in the past and are acting in the present. Police protect their own for things that would get any of us locked in Jail. It is not wrong to be exhausted over that, nor enraged. But the passion coming from Saelune is simply summed up as "Treat the Officer in question as a civilian, especially because she was a civilian when the crime took place."

erttheking:
Have to admit I feel uncomfortable watching this. I'm glad she's being charged, but I've been burned by the blue wall of silence before.

That is how I feel about it. This was horrific, I can't even begin to imagine what his loved one's are feeling right now. Dallas though seems to at least be willing to act and not just try to cover it up and hide it from everyone as so many others have done so I am hopeful they will follow through here. They have even been willing to contest the officer's version of the story, so that is unusual as well. I was told that Dallas Police actually reached out to his family immediately and tried to provide as many details as possible this time rather than keep it from them, so at least there's that. The police apparently wanted the family to know before the press did.

So while checking on if there were any updates on this story, I stumbled across the actual arrest warrant.
https://twitter.com/steveeagar/status/1039253468387725312

The story that's told in that warrant is....well it makes no fucking sense. On top of that it's heavily defensive in favor of the officer (which I find to be really weird considering it's an arrest warrant), and doesn't match the previous stories that we were given. It's shifted multiple times, and now we ended up with this version that potentially gives her a chance for an easier sentence. My memory is fuzzy regarding the matter, but can't off-duty officers basically declare themselves to be on-duty if they are sure a crime is happening? And wouldn't her thinking her place was broken into by potentially armed burglars fall into that criteria?

Even if that's not the case though, they're still trying to paint this as her being the victim, and seeking to minimize the punishment that she receives.

As a side note to this story, the NRA decided to openly endorse shooting cops in self defense.
https://www.newsweek.com/nra-dana-loesch-botham-jean-dallas-cop-killed-neighbor-apartment-1116267
Never thought I'd see the day, but there ya go.

Nedoras:
So while checking on if there were any updates on this story, I stumbled across the actual arrest warrant.
https://twitter.com/steveeagar/status/1039253468387725312

The story that's told in that warrant is....well it makes no fucking sense. On top of that it's heavily defensive in favor of the officer (which I find to be really weird considering it's an arrest warrant), and doesn't match the previous stories that we were given. It's shifted multiple times, and now we ended up with this version that potentially gives her a chance for an easier sentence. My memory is fuzzy regarding the matter, but can't off-duty officers basically declare themselves to be on-duty if they are sure a crime is happening? And wouldn't her thinking her place was broken into by potentially armed burglars fall into that criteria?

Even if that's not the case though, they're still trying to paint this as her being the victim, and seeking to minimize the punishment that she receives.

As a side note to this story, the NRA decided to openly endorse shooting cops in self defense.
https://www.newsweek.com/nra-dana-loesch-botham-jean-dallas-cop-killed-neighbor-apartment-1116267
Never thought I'd see the day, but there ya go.

Yes, looks like the arrest warrant was written only from the POV of the defendant and does not include the witness testimony. Not that it will matter how nice the arrest warrant was written once the DA reviews all the evidence.

Nedoras:
As a side note to this story, the NRA decided to openly endorse shooting cops in self defense.
https://www.newsweek.com/nra-dana-loesch-botham-jean-dallas-cop-killed-neighbor-apartment-1116267
Never thought I'd see the day, but there ya go.

The NRA want gun sales up. They would say anything as means to that goal.

Apparently same officer shot another person last year. Though can't tell if that was justified or not from the sources I've seen.

http://www.keranews.org/post/dallas-officer-who-killed-botham-jean-his-home-also-shot-man-2017

Thaluikhain:
Apparently same officer shot another person last year. Though can't tell if that was justified or not from the sources I've seen.

http://www.keranews.org/post/dallas-officer-who-killed-botham-jean-his-home-also-shot-man-2017

So she's trigger-happy at best, or is easily panicked and/or spooked at worst.

Nedoras:
So while checking on if there were any updates on this story, I stumbled across the actual arrest warrant.
https://twitter.com/steveeagar/status/1039253468387725312

The story that's told in that warrant is....well it makes no fucking sense. On top of that it's heavily defensive in favor of the officer (which I find to be really weird considering it's an arrest warrant), and doesn't match the previous stories that we were given. It's shifted multiple times, and now we ended up with this version that potentially gives her a chance for an easier sentence. My memory is fuzzy regarding the matter, but can't off-duty officers basically declare themselves to be on-duty if they are sure a crime is happening? And wouldn't her thinking her place was broken into by potentially armed burglars fall into that criteria?

Even if that's not the case though, they're still trying to paint this as her being the victim, and seeking to minimize the punishment that she receives.

As a side note to this story, the NRA decided to openly endorse shooting cops in self defense.
https://www.newsweek.com/nra-dana-loesch-botham-jean-dallas-cop-killed-neighbor-apartment-1116267
Never thought I'd see the day, but there ya go.

The NRA and gun-nuts in general have always insinuated shooting cops and government workers and politicians in their arguments for guns. They just ignore the hypocrisy of it when the people they say to shoot support them. Kind of like when people act like Trump is not everything poor right-wingers hate, an elitist swampy city-slicker who doesn't value their middle-class work ethic.

And ofcourse it skews to defend the cop. That is what I have been arguing for pages about, and that Obsidian Jones put way too much effort in chronicaling (though I appreciated his effort to defend me).

This reddit post made some good points too
https://np.reddit.com/r/BlackPeopleTwitter/comments/9f3bwa/dont_blame_the_victim/e5tmdxu/

Cause either A) She immediatly shot him after he opened the door cause she told himt to, so her thinking was 'I will shoot him the second he COMPLIES WITH A COPS ORDERS' which is bad, or
B) She had time to order him some more and then him act a threat when she could have used that time to realize it wasnt her apartment.

Instead I guess she thought 'That sicko broke into my house and replaced my pictures with those of his family!'

Elijin:
Bugs me none of you have considered exhaustion as a factor. What if this is some sort of "straight off a double shift" walking dead mistake.

I don't know about YOU, but I've worked multiple shifts and been worked to death and not once have I ever came into the wrong house and shot the person inside.

Good gawd, I knew there'd be a few people trying to say this was justified, but holy moly, you exceeded my expectations on what rationale, baby.

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/09/attorney-reveals-potential-link-dallas-cop-innocent-man-gunned-apartment/

Huh.

Also, I note she apparently shot at a "large silhouette". Didn't wait to see who or what they were shooting at, or what they were doing.

Thaluikhain:
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/09/attorney-reveals-potential-link-dallas-cop-innocent-man-gunned-apartment/

Huh.

Also, I note she apparently shot at a ?large silhouette?. Didn't wait to see who or what they were shooting at, or what they were doing.

That's not looking good at all. This whole thing may be far worse than originally claimed. And if so; how much do her police buddies already know of it all, we can only wonder.

Xprimentyl:

This woman, as a trained officer, should have had astute enough powers of observation

This is the problem. Cops aren't trained for jack and are there to arrest people and get paid. The days of the helpful officer that actually protects people are long gone.

Smithnikov:

I don't know about YOU, but I've worked multiple shifts and been worked to death and not once have I ever came into the wrong house and shot the person inside.

The shooting bit, no, obviously. But I know someone on anxiety meds and they can make him a little fuzzy (like he's a little drunk). He's gone to get stuff out of his car before and spent some time actually trying to get it out of my (locked) car without realising why it isn't working. The cars are nothing alike. Brains are strange.

Smithnikov:

Elijin:
Bugs me none of you have considered exhaustion as a factor. What if this is some sort of "straight off a double shift" walking dead mistake.

I don't know about YOU, but I've worked multiple shifts and been worked to death and not once have I ever came into the wrong house and shot the person inside.

Good gawd, I knew there'd be a few people trying to say this was justified, but holy moly, you exceeded my expectations on what rationale, baby.

My thoughts exactly. Or are they are trying to state a correlation between cop's exhaustion and cop violence? If exhaustion made cops so dangerous towards innocent people, they would be forced to not carry their firearms after their shift is over.

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