George144: I fail to see how anyone can take Odinism seriously as a religion, I mean elves, wizards and giants its pure mythology now a days, if you want to take up fringe religion at least take up one thats still taken partly seriously like Vodoun. But to awsner your questions
2. Its clearly a religion one would only follow to either differentiate themselves, to cause controversy or in the best case just from being a bit deluded. So yes it seems like someone would be doing it to provoke a reaction, though saying their racist is going a bit far.
Because, just like any other religion, it is allegorical. Being an Asatru doesn't mean one has to believe, verbatim, that Loki is living on some cave here on earth with poison dripping into his eyes. It is open to the interpretations of the Asatru in question. All religions, at heart, say utterly ridiculous things if taken at face value. Picking on Norse mythology is no different than picking on the Garden of Eden or the Hindu elephants.
A lot of people get into it for reasons you gave, they think it's "cool" or are trying to become 'western Samurais' or something. But you will find a few Asatrus about, I have met one or two in my time.
Godavari: I still think you're either a neo-pagan or delusional, though.
i'm not sure what you mean by that. Explain please.
People are either theists or atheists. If you're an Odinist and theist, then you honestly believe that these norse mythologies are true, which would make you delusional. If you're an Odinist and atheist, that would mean you only identified with the religion because it was "cool", not because you believed it. That would make you a neo-pagan.
So I think we've at least established you have no fucking clue what neo-pagan means.
The Infamous Scamola: Isn't there something in the legends about Odin only letting fair-skinned viking warriors into Valhalla? I'm not implying anything, I really want to know if it's true.
Also, in what way are you a practiser of Odinism? Do you actually perform any rituals/abide by a set of rules and stuff? Or do you just wear a bunch of norse themed pendants and think you're cool because of it?
I do preform Daily/Annual rituals and I do abide by the "rules" or the Nine Noble Virtues, which are: Truth, Honour, Courage, Discipline, Fidelity, Hospitality, Industriousness, Seff-Reliance and Perserverance. These are meant to be the basis of how we, Odinists, live our lives
IrishBerserker: As I've stated countless times before in real life and about three times in this thread.
I chose odinism for what it preaches and how I want to spend my afterlife. not because of the Stories/Legends(which I enjoy reading)
I'm sorry for being a bit repetitive, but I can't get around your choice of words. "wish to", "chose", "want to". Is it how you want it to be, or how you believe it to be? And out of curiousity, how do you choose a religion? It seems to me that either you believe in it, or you don't. There's not much one can do to affect faith.
I'm not trying to be confrontational or anything, I just can't understand whether this is your genuine belief or your wishful thinking.
I will address the words/Phrases one at a time.
"Wish to go to Valhalla or Hel" - the only other place I could go when I die is Neiflhel. Which is basically the Odinist version of Hell.
"Chose" 1 - My parents are Christian and I was not bapsised because they wanted me to chose what religion I would follow. which I'm sure they thought would be Protestant or Catholic.
"Chose" 2 - A soon as an Odinist's child reaches the age of majority they are free to chose whether they want to become an Odinist, like their parents or chose another faith
"Want to" - I would rather spend my afterlife as a warrior in Valhalla or with my loved ones in Hel, than in any other way.
The Infamous Scamola: Isn't there something in the legends about Odin only letting fair-skinned viking warriors into Valhalla? I'm not implying anything, I really want to know if it's true.
Nomad: The only requirement for getting into Valhalla - as far as I know - is being a bloodthirsty warrior. If you're a less bloodthirsty warrior, you'll go to Folkvangr. The ratio is supposed to be roughly 50/50. But if you don't die in battle, then you're going to Hel. It's important, however, not to confuse Hel with Hell. Hel isn't a very awful place, it's simply where the weaklings are taken when they die. Because the Aesir don't have any use for them in Valhalla/Folkvangr.
Now this isn't technically true. You don't have to be "bloodthirsty" to enter Valhalla, the Valkaries will take the souls of the dead from the battlefeild. Freyja, is one of the valkaries and she choses who will go to her hall, Folkvangr. After the Valkaries finish their task the souls are then taken to the Golden Halls of Valhalla, where Odin decides if these fresh souls should join the Einherjer. Those that have not lead a good life/died an honourable death will be sent to Neiflhel.
Also, wheather or not a warrior was/is burried/burned with or without a sheild contributes to where he will go.
Godavari: I still think you're either a neo-pagan or delusional, though.
i'm not sure what you mean by that. Explain please.
People are either theists or atheists. If you're an Odinist and theist, then you honestly believe that these norse mythologies are true, which would make you delusional. If you're an Odinist and atheist, that would mean you only identified with the religion because it was "cool", not because you believed it. That would make you a neo-pagan.
So I think we've at least established you have no fucking clue what neo-pagan means.
Neopaganism or Neo-Paganism is an umbrella term used to identify a wide variety of modern religious movements, particularly those influenced by pre-Christian pagan beliefs of Europe.[1][2]
Neo-Pagan religious movements are extremely diverse, with beliefs that range widely from polytheism to animism, to pantheism and other paradigms. Many Neopagans practise a spirituality that is entirely modern in origin, while others attempt to accurately reconstruct or revive indigenous, ethnic religions as found in historical and folkloric sources.[3]
Wikipedia copypasta. You may have a point. I guess that neopagans can be theists. I just don't know the word for what I'm trying to get across. Neo-neopagan? I'm trying to imply something along the lines of "You're probably a rebellious teenager who chose this because you're trying to alienate yourself from your parents or because it sounds cool." Think of some teenage girl who becomes a Wiccan. 99.99% of the time, she's just doing it because it's "cute" or "cool" or to be a rebel. Very rarely do people with neopagan "beliefs" actually believe them.
Godavari: Neopaganism or Neo-Paganism is an umbrella term used to identify a wide variety of modern religious movements, particularly those influenced by pre-Christian pagan beliefs of Europe.[1][2]
Neo-Pagan religious movements are extremely diverse, with beliefs that range widely from polytheism to animism, to pantheism and other paradigms. Many Neopagans practise a spirituality that is entirely modern in origin, while others attempt to accurately reconstruct or revive indigenous, ethnic religions as found in historical and folkloric sources.[3]
Wikipedia copypasta. You may have a point. I guess that neopagans can be theists. I just don't know the word for what I'm trying to get across. Neo-neopagan? I'm trying to imply something along the lines of "You're probably a rebellious teenager who chose this because you're trying to alienate yourself from your parents or because it sounds cool." Think of some teenage girl who becomes a Wiccan. 99.99% of the time, she's just doing it because it's "cute" or "cool" or to be a rebel. Very rarely do people with neopagan "beliefs" actually believe them.
I hope I'm demonstrating my point.
I believe the word you are looking for is "Poser [explative]". At least thats what I use to describe them.
Inccidently, I know a wiccan I'm not sure if she is a practicing wiccan but I know her mother and Grandmother are.
You don't have to be in the military to die in battle.
Of course not, but it makes it infinitely more likely. Where are you going to find all-out combat in civilian society?
IrishBerserker: "Wish to go to Valhalla or Hel" - the only other place I could go when I die is Neiflhel. Which is basically the Odinist version of Hell.
Isn't Nifelheim a part of hel? To my knowledge, there isn't really a nordic counterpart to hell, since the norse didn't believe in the concept of sin. Therefore there wasn't really any reason to have a place in which the "sinners" would go. The closest thing would be Hel itself, where the non-warriors ended up. Because either you were a brave warrior, or you weren't. And the only thing that made them separate was that the gods wanted the warriors with them in preparation for Ragnarok. Later accounts of Hel did have elements in common with hell, but that was because of the christian influence (as mentioned earlier, the vikings had a habbit of merging foreign religions with their own).
IrishBerserker: "Chose" 1 - My parents are Christian and I was not bapsised because they wanted me to chose what religion I would follow. which I'm sure they thought would be Protestant or Catholic.
"Chose" 2 - A soon as an Odinist's child reaches the age of majority they are free to chose whether they want to become an Odinist, like their parents or chose another faith
I don't think you quite understood my question. I'm asking about the concept of "choosing" a religion. In my understanding, you can't "choose" your religion any more than you can "choose" your sexuality. You either believe or you don't. You either like having sex with prismatic butterflies or you don't. It's not really something you can choose either way, it's just something you have to deal with. Since faith isn't a concious process, "choosing" to believe in something can't really do anything else but mimic the true thing. You can think it'd be cool if it'd be true, and you can think it's logical, but you can't decide whether to believe in it or not. Your mind takes care of that part for you.
IrishBerserker: "Want to" - I would rather spend my afterlife as a warrior in Valhalla or with my loved ones in Hel, than in any other way.
Yeah, but if you really believe in nordic paganism, then that's a moot point. Because if you believe that's what will happen, your preference will be irrelevant, because you already "know" where you'll end up regardless of what you want. That's the root of my question. Do you believe that's how things are, or do you just want it to be that way?
IrishBerserker: Now this isn't technically true. You don't have to be "bloodthirsty" to enter Valhalla, the Valkaries will take the souls of the dead from the battlefeild. Freyja, is one of the valkaries and she choses who will go to her hall, Folkvangr. After the Valkaries finish their task the souls are then taken to the Golden Halls of Valhalla, where Odin decides if these fresh souls should join the Einherjer. Those that have not lead a good life/died an honourable death will be sent to Neiflhel.
Also, wheather or not a warrior was/is burried/burned with or without a sheild contributes to where he will go.
With Sheild - Folkvangr
Without Sheild - Valhalla
First of all, Freyja isn't a valkyrie. She's one of the Vanir, the defeated god-race. She was taken hostage by the Aesir as a part of the peace settlement, to prevent further dispute. She is the mistress of the valkyries, but not one of the valkyries herself.
Second, yes, the valkyries pick up the dead from the battlefield. That's all well and good, and I haven't really contradicted that point. The choice on which warriors go to which place, however, is based on their blood-thirst. In nordic paganism, blood-thirst wasn't something negative. It made you a fine warrior, which is what the Aesir are looking for in Valhalla. Therefore the most blood-thirsty and adept warriors were taken to Valhalla to spearhead the hosts as Einherjers, as you say, while the remaining warriors were taken to Folkvangr. Again, the vikings had no concept of sin and did not have any definition of a "good life", to my knowledge. Those who died in combat ended up in Valhalla or Folkvangr, and those who didn't went to Hel. The "good life"-part is another after-construction brought in by influences from christianity.
About the part with the shield, I can't really say anything about that, because I've never heard of it. It makes sense, however, that the influential people would have thought of a way to "secure" a place for them in the most sought-after destination. I would've thought it to be the other way around, though, that the shield-bearers are taken to Valhalla. I'll cede that point to you, anyway, since I don't have any conflicting information.
Where did you learn about all this anyway? You seem to have some heavy christian influences in there, making me think you've gotten your information primarily from the prose edda, which was authored after the ascension of christianity in most norse settlements.
You don't have to be in the military to die in battle.
Of course not, but it makes it infinitely more likely. Where are you going to find all-out combat in civilian society?
That is a good point. To answer your original question, on the matter no I am not in the military or "Armed Forces" as they are called in Canada. Though I might join up if my current plans do not work out.
IrishBerserker: "Wish to go to Valhalla or Hel" - the only other place I could go when I die is Neiflhel. Which is basically the Odinist version of Hell.
Isn't Nifelheim a part of hel? To my knowledge, there isn't really a nordic counterpart to hell, since the norse didn't believe in the concept of sin. Therefore there wasn't really any reason to have a place in which the "sinners" would go. The closest thing would be Hel itself, where the non-warriors ended up. Because either you were a brave warrior, or you weren't. And the only thing that made them separate was that the gods wanted the warriors with them in preparation for Ragnarok. Later accounts of Hel did have elements in common with hell, but that was because of the christian influence (as mentioned earlier, the vikings had a habbit of merging foreign religions with their own).
Yes, Neiflheim is a part of Hel, that is why it can also be refer to as Neiflhel
I only used Hell as a comparison because I really couldn't think of another.
While it is true their is no sin in Odinism. Neiflhel is still a place were "bad/evil" people go. By that I mean: rapists, cowards, the dishonourable, etc. All of which, if I'm not mistaken, were considered the worst of society, back in the day.
On the subject of merging religions, I personally think most people would be surprised to learn how much of Christianity has been influenced by/taken from pagan culture.
IrishBerserker: "Chose" 1 - My parents are Christian and I was not bapsised because they wanted me to chose what religion I would follow. which I'm sure they thought would be Protestant or Catholic.
"Chose" 2 - A soon as an Odinist's child reaches the age of majority they are free to chose whether they want to become an Odinist, like their parents or chose another faith
I don't think you quite understood my question. I'm asking about the concept of "choosing" a religion. In my understanding, you can't "choose" your religion any more than you can "choose" your sexuality. You either believe or you don't. You either like having sex with prismatic butterflies or you don't. It's not really something you can choose either way, it's just something you have to deal with. Since faith isn't a concious process, "choosing" to believe in something can't really do anything else but mimic the true thing. You can think it'd be cool if it'd be true, and you can think it's logical, but you can't decide whether to believe in it or not. Your mind takes care of that part for you.
Let us not get into the subject of sexuality, as it is a touchy subject, though I do agree that you can not choose it.
With respect, I disagree, I believe you can choose, at least some, of your beliefs. What beliefs you can choose is up to debate though, as is whether it is a consious or subconciuos decision.
Also, you can choose what religion you believe in. For example, convertion, you can convert to Islam, Judism and/or Christianity. Though that could be because they basically worship the same god, just with different interpritations and texts.
IrishBerserker: "Want to" - I would rather spend my afterlife as a warrior in Valhalla or with my loved ones in Hel, than in any other way.
Yeah, but if you really believe in nordic paganism, then that's a moot point. Because if you believe that's what will happen, your preference will be irrelevant, because you already "know" where you'll end up regardless of what you want. That's the root of my question. Do you believe that's how things are, or do you just want it to be that way?
I do beleive, whole heartedly and I only use that phrase as a quick explanation of why I embraced Odinism as my religion, at least in reference to the afterlife.
IrishBerserker: Now this isn't technically true. You don't have to be "bloodthirsty" to enter Valhalla, the Valkaries will take the souls of the dead from the battlefeild. Freyja, is one of the valkaries and she choses who will go to her hall, Folkvangr. After the Valkaries finish their task the souls are then taken to the Golden Halls of Valhalla, where Odin decides if these fresh souls should join the Einherjer. Those that have not lead a good life/died an honourable death will be sent to Neiflhel.
Also, wheather or not a warrior was/is burried/burned with or without a sheild contributes to where he will go.
With Sheild - Folkvangr
Without Sheild - Valhalla
First of all, Freyja isn't a valkyrie. She's one of the Vanir, the defeated god-race. She was taken hostage by the Aesir as a part of the peace settlement, to prevent further dispute. She is the mistress of the valkyries, but not one of the valkyries herself.
That is mis-interpritation, on my part, of the prhase "Mistress of the Valkaries". I took it to meen that she was their "leader"(for lack of a better word).
Also, just as clarification, I know that she is a Vanir and that she was traded as a hostage. Though, I always thought of it as more of a peace treaty, than one side defeating the other.
Nomad: Second, yes, the valkyries pick up the dead from the battlefield. That's all well and good, and I haven't really contradicted that point. The choice on which warriors go to which place, however, is based on their blood-thirst. In nordic paganism, blood-thirst wasn't something negative. It made you a fine warrior, which is what the Aesir are looking for in Valhalla. Therefore the most blood-thirsty and adept warriors were taken to Valhalla to spearhead the hosts as Einherjers, as you say, while the remaining warriors were taken to Folkvangr. Again, the vikings had no concept of sin and did not have any definition of a "good life", to my knowledge. Those who died in combat ended up in Valhalla or Folkvangr, and those who didn't went to Hel. The "good life"-part is another after-construction brought in by influences from christianity.
I don't think of Blood-thirst as something negative, mainly beacause I am, technically, a berserker, I am just saying there are other things taken into consideration upon judging whether a warrior is fit for either hall. Also, by "good life", I mean an hounorable life.
Nomad: About the part with the shield, I can't really say anything about that, because I've never heard of it. It makes sense, however, that the influential people would have thought of a way to "secure" a place for them in the most sought-after destination. I would've thought it to be the other way around, though, that the shield-bearers are taken to Valhalla. I'll cede that point to you, anyway, since I don't have any conflicting information.
To by honest, I got that off of Wikipedia, so I take it with a huge grain of salt. Though it could be true.
Nomad: Where did you learn about all this anyway? You seem to have some heavy christian influences in there, making me think you've gotten your information primarily from the prose edda, which was authored after the ascension of christianity in most norse settlements.
The basics, I learnt from a grade 6 history class. As part of the course we learnt about vikings, speciffically their landing in Vinland/Newfoundland and the settlement at L'Anse Aux Meadows.
The rest, I find wherever I can: forums, books, websites, etc. The websites include but are not limited to various organizational groups, that are made up of Odinsists. (Ex. Asatru Alliance, Odin Brotherhood, etc,)
As far as the Christian influence goes. As I stated both my parents are Christians, so my up brining has no doubt influenced some of my thoughts. Also, I do own a, translated, copy of the Prose Edda, so some of my information does come from it.
On the subject of merging religions, I personally think most people would be surprised to learn how much of Christianity has been influenced by/taken from pagan culture.
Naturally, it goes both ways. What makes norse paganism special is that it was influenced and gradually altered during a long period of time by christianity, and so the more recent accounts of it are like half paganism/half christianity.
Also, you can choose what religion you believe in. For example, convertion, you can convert to Islam, Judism and/or Christianity. Though that could be because they basically worship the same god, just with different interpritations and texts.
Yeah, see, I still don't think you see what I'm saying. I'm not arguing against the ability to switch religion. I'm arguing against the concept that it's a choice. Either you believe in something or you don't, it's a subconcious process that you can't conciously affect. You can affect what you think and how you act, but not what you believe, because it's a subconcious process. There's no argument about the existance of convertion. It's entirely possible to convert from one religion to another. But you convert because you've had some sort of spiritual revelation where your belief system has changed. You don't convert because you think it'd be more awesome if you were reborn as a cow after you died than it would be to go to a paradise in the heavens. You convert because after hearing about this new theory, it makes more sense to you and you can't really believe in your old religion anymore. It's not a choice, it's a state of mind. You can never choose what you believe in, whether it be religion or ideology. It's a matter of your personal foundational morals and faith, and you can't affect it any more than you can affect - for example - your sexuality.
IrishBerserker: I do beleive, whole heartedly and I only use that phrase as a quick explanation of why I embraced Odinism as my religion, at least in reference to the afterlife.
If you believe rather than hope, then you don't need an explanation - because there is none. Faith isn't rational, it's spiritual. It's very hard to argue for the logic of religion, but people believe in various ideas anyway because they feel it's right.
IrishBerserker: Also, just as clarification, I know that she is a Vanir and that she was traded as a hostage. Though, I always thought of it as more of a peace treaty, than one side defeating the other.
Yupp, it was a peace treaty. The Vanir got hostages as well. But the Vanir were the defeated party, which is the reason the mythology focuses so heavily on the Aesir. The Vanir scurried off into oblivion after the defeat.
IrishBerserker: As far as the Christian influence goes. As I stated both my parents are Christians, so my up brining has no doubt influenced some of my thoughts. Also, I do own a, translated, copy of the Prose Edda, so some of my information does come from it.
My comment about christian influences wasn't so much a comment on your reasoning as a comment on your facts. It seemed to me as if you had gotten them from one of the more recent sources that had been influenced by christian ideals. Such as the Prose Edda. For a more "pure" account, I suggest the Poetic Edda.
Nomad: Yeah, see, I still don't think you see what I'm saying. I'm not arguing against the ability to switch religion. I'm arguing against the concept that it's a choice. Either you believe in something or you don't, it's a subconcious process that you can't conciously affect. You can affect what you think and how you act, but not what you believe, because it's a subconcious process. There's no argument about the existance of convertion. It's entirely possible to convert from one religion to another. But you convert because you've had some sort of spiritual revelation where your belief system has changed. You don't convert because you think it'd be more awesome if you were reborn as a cow after you died than it would be to go to a paradise in the heavens. You convert because after hearing about this new theory, it makes more sense to you and you can't really believe in your old religion anymore. It's not a choice, it's a state of mind. You can never choose what you believe in, whether it be religion or ideology. It's a matter of your personal foundational morals and faith, and you can't affect it any more than you can affect - for example - your sexuality.
Ah. Now I see what you mean.
In the terms you used, I did have a "revalation". As I stated my interest in the vikings and Norse mythology was peaked in grade 6. For years after that I read up on some of the history and legends. As I studied the subject more, specifically the stories and legends concerning the gods and the world, I began to notice that what I was reading closely mirrored the way I saw the world. At eighteen, coincidently the age of majority in Canada, I felt I was old enough to make some informed decisions about my life. So, I embraced Odinism as my religion and the Aesir & Vanir as my gods.
and as far as the afterlife goes, I DO believe that I will go either to Valhalla or Hel.
If you still don't think I am a believer thats fine but I honetly can't explain myself in more detail, at least not over the internet. Really in the long run it doesn't matter wether or not you think I'm a believer, as I know that I am one and really thats all that matters to me.
Oh and just to let you know I have enjoyed these post. It's nice to talk with someone who is actually educated about my beliefs. I thank you for that.
IrishBerserker: I do beleive, whole heartedly and I only use that phrase as a quick explanation of why I embraced Odinism as my religion, at least in reference to the afterlife.
If you believe rather than hope, then you don't need an explanation - because there is none. Faith isn't rational, it's spiritual. It's very hard to argue for the logic of religion, but people believe in various ideas anyway because they feel it's right.
I think you misunderstood. The explanation isn't for me but for others that can't understand why I am an Odinist or that need an explanation to be given.
Nomad: Yupp, it was a peace treaty. The Vanir got hostages as well. But the Vanir were the defeated party, which is the reason the mythology focuses so heavily on the Aesir. The Vanir scurried off into oblivion after the defeat.
Now see thats not entirely true. Some of the most important feasts are dedicated to the Vanir. For example: Spring Equinox, First Harvest Feast and Yule. There are more but I don't know them by hand.
Nomad: My comment about christian influences wasn't so much a comment on your reasoning as a comment on your facts. It seemed to me as if you had gotten them from one of the more recent sources that had been influenced by christian ideals. Such as the Prose Edda. For a more "pure" account, I suggest the Poetic Edda.
I also have a copy of that. Though it isn't a very good translation.
IrishBerserker: 1) Why do you think people do not infom themselves or find reputable sources before commenting on whether or not this religion/the Believer is racist
Because most people are ignorant and lazy and are quite comfortable staying that way. Also because of the Nazis and their blatant use of Mythological Norse Symbols.
IrishBerserker: 2) Do you think it Asatru/Odinism is a racist religion? Why?
If you still don't think I am a believer thats fine but I honetly can't explain myself in more detail, at least not over the internet. Really in the long run it doesn't matter wether or not you think I'm a believer, as I know that I am one and really thats all that matters to me.
Now I'm convinced! It's just that I've seen a lot of people running around claiming to believe in nordic mythology, but everyone I've met so far have only really thought it's a cool concept and run with it. My previous experiences have made me a little sceptic towards the entire group.
Oh and just to let you know I have enjoyed these post. It's nice to talk with someone who is actually educated about my beliefs. I thank you for that.
And it's nice to talk to someone who actually believes in it rather than wanting to roleplay their real life.
IrishBerserker: I think you misunderstood. The explanation isn't for me but for others that can't understand why I am an Odinist or that need an explanation to be given.
Yupp, miscommunication on my part.
IrishBerserker: Now see thats not entirely true. Some of the most important feasts are dedicated to the Vanir. For example: Spring Equinox, First Harvest Feast and Yule. There are more but I don't know them by hand.
Huh, I didn't know that. As I said, most of my knowledge comes from the school system, and we generally only have time to cover the basics when trying to squeeze 2000 years of national history into an 8-month class. The only thing I ever heard was that the Vanir were supposedly part of a previous religion in the area, and that the ascension of the new one all but wiped out the "old ways", with the notable exceptions of the symbolic hostages and stuff. I would've assumed the harvest feast at least would be directed specifically towards Freyr, which would indirectly make it directed towards the Vanir. It's interesting to hear they have more of a part in it than that.
rossatdi: Cool stories but you can't seriously believe it can you? I mean, you're Canadian, you're not even living in the right area to be associated with the folklore.
Take an active interest in the folklore, that's cool, I wish I knew mine better, but don't pretend its actually a 'religion'.
As for the racist links, the revival of the religion was integral to the rise of the Nazi party and a later soft revival isn't going to fix that. Thems the breaks.
1. Cool stories indeed. And I guess you dont know the half of it. But no, I guess they are no more "real" than the bible, koran, tora and whatever it is the hindu read. Then again it is ne less "real" either.
2. Actually, the vikings did sail to modern day Canada and even as far south along the cost as modern day New York (U.S.). And even if that were not the case I doubt his location has anything to do with it.
3. Yes, the nazis sure did steal alot of their iconagraphy from it. Most notisably the sun wheel (swastika) and the sig-rune (SS symbol). But claiming it should forever be tarnished because of that is like claiming that from now on America should stand for stupidity, greed and murder. Because that is, like, totaly what Gorge Walker Bush was for.
No. I think that I will continue to remember and honor my cultural heratige thank you very much. Just As I expect the Americans (most of them anyway) will continue to value truth freedom and justice.
Oh, and to the OP: No, the whole point of the Ásatrú is that everyone should be judged on his or her ability and certinly not the color of their skin.
Let me say this, I know it is based on stories and legends. I am a beliver and when I inevitably die I wish to go to Valhalla or at least Hel.
Do you "wish" to go to Valhalla or Hel, or do you believe you'll go there?
Also, as far as I can remember from school, you only go to Valhalla if you die in battle. Are you in the army?
You don't have to be in the military to die in battle.
I'm confused now. How exactly does one get into Valhalla? Is Hel any "worse" than Valhalla, or are they both a sort of heaven, except Valhalla being warriors-preparing-for-Ragnarok-heaven? What's the difference between Valhalla and Fólkvangr?
Let me say this, I know it is based on stories and legends. I am a beliver and when I inevitably die I wish to go to Valhalla or at least Hel.
Do you "wish" to go to Valhalla or Hel, or do you believe you'll go there?
Also, as far as I can remember from school, you only go to Valhalla if you die in battle. Are you in the army?
You don't have to be in the military to die in battle.
I'm confused now. How exactly does one get into Valhalla? Is Hel any "worse" than Valhalla, or are they both a sort of heaven, except Valhalla being warriors-preparing-for-Ragnarok-heaven? What's the difference between Valhalla and Fólkvangr?
To enter Valhalla you must die an honourable death in battle.
Hel isn't worse than Valhalla. Its for those that have not died in battle but have lived an honourable life.
Valhalla is in Asgard and is Odin's hall. Fólkvangr is ruled by Freyja and her hall is Sessrúmnir. Each houses half the host that have died an hounorable death in battle.
IrishBerserker: To enter Valhalla you must die an honourable death in battle.
Do you have to literally die in battle? That seems a little weird. Wouldn't the great accomplishment be to live as a terrific warrior and survive the whole thing? What would happen to a soldier who dies outside of war? What if a soldier is injured in battle, but it doesn't become serious and causes his death until many years later?
IrishBerserker: Hel isn't worse than Valhalla. Its for those that have not died in battle but have lived an honourable life.
What's the Norse paganism definition of an honourable life?
IrishBerserker: Valhalla is in Asgard and is Odin's hall. Fólkvangr is ruled by Freyja and her hall is Sessrúmnir. Each houses half the host that have died an hounorable death in battle.
IrishBerserker: To enter Valhalla you must die an honourable death in battle.
Do you have to literally die in battle? That seems a little weird. Wouldn't the great accomplishment be to live as a terrific warrior and survive the whole thing? What would happen to a soldier who dies outside of war? What if a soldier is injured in battle, but it doesn't become serious and causes his death until many years later?
You can die as a result of battle, within reason. Meaning if you die from a piece of an artillery shell entering your heart after years of being fine, with it in your body, you probably won't end up in Valhalla.
IrishBerserker: Valhalla is in Asgard and is Odin's hall. Fólkvangr is ruled by Freyja and her hall is Sessrúmnir. Each houses half the host that have died an hounorable death in battle.
Any reason for the split then?
I believe it was part of the peace treaty for the Aesir-Vanir war
Godavari: I still think you're either a neo-pagan or delusional, though.
i'm not sure what you mean by that. Explain please.
People are either theists or atheists. If you're an Odinist and theist, then you honestly believe that these norse mythologies are true, which would make you delusional. If you're an Odinist and atheist, that would mean you only identified with the religion because it was "cool", not because you believed it. That would make you a neo-pagan.
Wait, you can have a religion and be atheist? how the hell does that work? Off topic, I'd love a replica of Mojlinier because the Norse gods are awesome and Thor's hammer is the only artifact I can think of (and I'm sure Loki's trickery doesn't count as an artifcat)
Oh That Dude: Buddhists are all atheists, I'm pretty sure.
Not necessarily, but yeah, they generally lean towards agnostic or atheist. The westernized version of Taoism is atheistic as well. LaVeyan Satanism too. Actually, there are quite a few atheistic religions.
Godavari: I still think you're either a neo-pagan or delusional, though.
i'm not sure what you mean by that. Explain please.
People are either theists or atheists. If you're an Odinist and theist, then you honestly believe that these norse mythologies are true, which would make you delusional. If you're an Odinist and atheist, that would mean you only identified with the religion because it was "cool", not because you believed it. That would make you a neo-pagan.
Wait, you can have a religion and be atheist? how the hell does that work? Off topic, I'd love a replica of Mojlinier because the Norse gods are awesome and Thor's hammer is the only artifact I can think of (and I'm sure Loki's trickery doesn't count as an artifcat)
IrishBerserker: You can die as a result of battle, within reason. Meaning if you die from a piece of an artillery shell entering your heart after years of being fine, with it in your body, you probably won't end up in Valhalla.
Still seems a bit weird. If I were a Norse God, I'd definitely be looking for the bad ass warriors who lived their entire lives.
Anyway, you have to die honourably in battle, presumably meaning if you high-tail it outta there and a-splode along the way you'll end up in Norse Hell (forget what it's called), but besides the obvious how does one define dying honourably in battle? Were someone to die in a gang shoot-out, over crack or whatever it is those people fight over, would they end up in Valhalla? Or, if someone was fighting a legitimate war and was sniped to the head from a distance, does that count as "honourable"?
If someone was being attacked (a mugging or whatever) by one or two people, would that constitute a battle? And if I were to take a bullet for them and die, would I end up in Valhalla or Fólkvangr? Does dying for someone in battle count as honourable?
Sorry for all the "what-if" questions, but this Norse stuff is actually quite interesting.
IrishBerserker: You can die as a result of battle, within reason. Meaning if you die from a piece of an artillery shell entering your heart after years of being fine, with it in your body, you probably won't end up in Valhalla.
Still seems a bit weird. If I were a Norse God, I'd definitely be looking for the bad ass warriors who lived their entire lives.
They'll need everyone at Ragnarok. Every warrior that isn't taken to the honour halls or hel, is sent to Neiflhel and will fight on the side of Loki and the Jotunn.
Cakes: Anyway, you have to die honourably in battle, presumably meaning if you high-tail it outta there and a-splode along the way you'll end up in Norse Hell (forget what it's called), but besides the obvious how does one define dying honourably in battle? Were someone to die in a gang shoot-out, over crack or whatever it is those people fight over, would they end up in Valhalla? Or, if someone was fighting a legitimate war and was sniped to the head from a distance, does that count as "honourable"?
As long as the person is not a coward and has led an hounorable life he will go to the honour halls.
Cakes: If someone was being attacked (a mugging or whatever) by one or two people, would that constitute a battle? And if I were to take a bullet for them and die, would I end up in Valhalla or Fólkvangr? Does dying for someone in battle count as honourable?
Yes that would count as a battle as lon as they fought back. As far as you going, that I can not say as I don't know how you have lived your life to the point of death.
Yes, dieing in defence of another is one of the most honourable ways to die.
Cakes: Sorry for all the "what-if" questions, but this Norse stuff is actually quite interesting.
scotth266: I like how a lot of people mention how religion is "delusional." It's a complete misuse of the word.
According to Freud religion is a sared mass delusion. Other athiest physcologists agree.
OT: The more i read on Asatru the more i find myself becoming convinced. I have been reading up on it for about 6 months and since i started living in accorance with it, the more things seem to be working out for me. Over the last two weeks i have been researching Rune Casting and Galdr and over the christmas holidays i am intending to carve my own set of runes. I thinnk here in the UK its something that is not well known at all andas such has ittle or no racist connotations with it. The big problem is with the symbols the Nazis' usurped. Anyone with a more in depth understandng of history and mythology recognises them for what they really are but that is a minority of people unfortunately.
IrishBerserker: You can die as a result of battle, within reason. Meaning if you die from a piece of an artillery shell entering your heart after years of being fine, with it in your body, you probably won't end up in Valhalla.
Still seems a bit weird. If I were a Norse God, I'd definitely be looking for the bad ass warriors who lived their entire lives.
Ah, but if they died of old age, then they'd be past their prime. I'm not sure if a warrior in Valhalla exists as he died or as an idealized version of himself, but it makes sense to me that it'd be the former.
If you died in battle, then you'd be most likely in the most physically powerful time of your life, or near to it. It's also direct proof of your valour. If you died outside of battle, then chances are you're either not a warrior, and therefore useless as an Einherjar, or you were a warrior (emphasis on the past tense) but are now, as I said, past your prime and therefore less-than-ideal as an Einherjar.
IrishBerserker: You can die as a result of battle, within reason. Meaning if you die from a piece of an artillery shell entering your heart after years of being fine, with it in your body, you probably won't end up in Valhalla.
Still seems a bit weird. If I were a Norse God, I'd definitely be looking for the bad ass warriors who lived their entire lives.
Ah, but if they died of old age, then they'd be past their prime. I'm not sure if a warrior in Valhalla exists as he died or as an idealized version of himself, but it makes sense to me that it'd be the former.
If you died in battle, then you'd be most likely in the most physically powerful time of your life, or near to it. It's also direct proof of your valour. If you died outside of battle, then chances are you're either not a warrior, and therefore useless as an Einherjar, or you were a warrior (emphasis on the past tense) but are now, as I said, past your prime and therefore less-than-ideal as an Einherjar.
All this is true, but wouldn't it suck to let a good warrior go to waste just because he died outside of battle? Yes, it's true, he'd probably be past his prime if he died outside of battle, but couldn't Odin (or whoever is in charge of this) just magic them back to their glory days? Of course, that may not be possible, I've no idea how powerful the Norse gods are supposed to be.
Another question for IrishBerserker: Is Hel ever described in detail in Norse mythology? What exactly is the place like?
EMFCRACKSHOT: The more I read on Asatru the more I find myself becoming convinced. I have been reading up on it for about 6 months and since I started living in accordance with it, the more things seem to be working out for me. Over the last two weeks I have been researching Rune Casting and Galdr and over the christmas holidays I am intending to carve my own set of runes.
When you do carve your runes if you make them out of wood might I suggest Oak. Only because that tree is sacred to Thor and in my opinion it is a beautiful wood. Also, as you know doubt read, don't guess at the meaning of the runes.
Another question for IrishBerserker: Is Hel ever described in detail in Norse mythology? What exactly is the place like?
It is, there are two parts to it: Hel and NeiflHel. Hel, for a quick description, is like Elysian Fields. There you are reunited with your loved ones until Ragnarok. NeiflHel (or Neiflheim) is, for a quick description, like Hell from the Abrahamic religions. the ceiling there are made from the spines of snakes, with a poisonous, seering venom dripping from them and the floor is a river of blood.
Of course there are other depictions of Neiflhel, none of them pleasent.
George144: I fail to see how anyone can take Odinism seriously as a religion, I mean elves, wizards and giants its pure mythology now a days, if you want to take up fringe religion at least take up one thats still taken partly seriously like Vodoun. But to awsner your questions
1. Many people clearly do as they have made the connection between Odinism and the Nazi's who not only used its iconography but also had a few members among the Nazi party. If you mean people should really look into the roots of Odinism (which is based off elaborate stories people used for entertainment and an excuse to get drunk a lot.) then maybe, but I think it would make them laugh at you rather then hate you.
2. Its clearly a religion one would only follow to either differentiate themselves, to cause controversy or in the best case just from being a bit deluded. So yes it seems like someone would be doing it to provoke a reaction, though saying their racist is going a bit far.
3. I'm more likely to take Wiccans more seriously then Odinists, so yeah I don't particularly want to know.
Still you want to worship childrens stories thats your choice.
Dude, neo-pagan revival is aimed at taking the old religions before they became 99% instruments of power and using them to practice. There is a major allure to these religions. They are (this is in general) not sexist or controlling. They often interpret every religion as having the same God (Cree here in Canada and Wicca anywhere). You don't need to go to a Church. Thus, people are inclined towards these religions as they are much more liberal in nature. I am interested in Wicca myself since it matches my already pagan beliefs.
That picture makes me laugh. Though as stated in the link they are Druids not Odinists.
Yeah, the Neo-Druids are a little weird. I stand by my "respect all religions" thing, but I'm not entirely sure Neo-Druidism even qualifies. It's essentially people make-believing they're druids (often not resembling real, historical druids in the slightest, mind you) which is fine, I suppose, but not really a religion. Celtic Reconstructionism, on the other hand, attempts to accurately reconstruct pre-Christian Celtic practices, which is certainly commendable.
Anyway, thanks for clearing up all that stuff about Norse mythology.
EMFCRACKSHOT: The more I read on Asatru the more I find myself becoming convinced. I have been reading up on it for about 6 months and since I started living in accordance with it, the more things seem to be working out for me. Over the last two weeks I have been researching Rune Casting and Galdr and over the christmas holidays I am intending to carve my own set of runes.
When you do carve your runes if you make them out of wood might I suggest Oak. Only because that tree is sacred to Thor and in my opinion it is a beautiful wood. Also, as you know doubt read, don't guess at the meaning of the runes.
[...] couldn't Odin (or whoever is in charge of this) just magic them back to their glory days? Of course, that may not be possible, I've no idea how powerful the Norse gods are supposed to be.
As you theorize, that wouldn't be possible. In norse mythology, the gods are closer to being another form of humans than they are to the classic god-almighty-image. They have their specific areas of expertise where they can do awesome stuff, like Thor with his lightning and Odin with his wisdom, but they can't do magic as such. Odin himself, arguably being the most godlike of the gods, had to give up one of his eyes to Mimir's well in order to gain his "special" ability. The mythology is highly complicated with a lot of twists and turns. The various gods/giants/others exist in a sort of symbiosis where they are eachother's sources of power, meaning that no one creature in the mythology is truly omnipotent.
To illustrate my point about complexity, here's a picture describing the creation of the world according to norse paganism.
Because, just like any other religion, it is allegorical. Being an Asatru doesn't mean one has to believe, verbatim, that Loki is living on some cave here on earth with poison dripping into his eyes. It is open to the interpretations of the Asatru in question. All religions, at heart, say utterly ridiculous things if taken at face value. Picking on Norse mythology is no different than picking on the Garden of Eden or the Hindu elephants.
A lot of people get into it for reasons you gave, they think it's "cool" or are trying to become 'western Samurais' or something. But you will find a few Asatrus about, I have met one or two in my time.