Vatican second-in-command blames pedophilia on homosexuality...

 Pages 1 2 3 4 NEXT
 

The vatican's second highest man, the cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, claimed on a visit to Chile that the massive problems with pedophilia is not due to celibacy (or the church protecting pedophile priests by relocating them...), but is linked to homosexuality.

"Many psychologists and psychiatrists have demonstrated that there is no relation between celibacy and pedophilia. But many others have demonstrated, I have been told recently, that there is a relation between homosexuality and pedophilia. That is true," said Bertone. "That is the problem."

The cardinal cited no actual psychologists and psychiatrists who holds this view (and who have apparently also been given independent scientific access to study and rule out the effects of celibacy or other possible causal effects...), and to me, it seems to border on hatespeech and is certainly tasteless - didn't even that Jesus-dude whom they supposedly serve say not to throw rocks if your hands weren't clean?

This would seem but the latest in a long line of disasterous media handling by the church, although personally I'm beginning to wonder whether the church is simply dropping its engagement in the modern civilized parts of the world for defending itself in more primitive regions where gaybashing stuff (an old favorite of the church) like this can still fly, and where religion still holds any real power.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/12/tarcisio-bertone-vaticans_n_534837.html

So the Vatican is still backwards, so what. They have always been like that, just ignore them.

Of course he does. I mean there's a tendency to think that Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwell represent some kind of lunatic fringe when it comes to blaming things on The Gay, but it's actually rather not like that at all, they're just the only ones doctrinally correct enough to say it out loud.

Hardcore_gamer:
So the Vatican is still backwards, so what. They have always been like that, just ignore them.

No, actually let's not ignore them, they're a hugely influential organization with a great deal of power in many societies, and they are using that power to foster division and hatred, cause suffering due to AIDS by elevating their own doctrine over the lives of real people, and conceal the crimes of their members.

They need to be held to a higher standard, not simply due to the fact that they claim they are of a higher standard due to their religion, but because their potential for social damage is massively higher than many other people.

Hardcore_gamer:
So the Vatican is still backwards, so what. They have always been like that, just ignore them.

If they kept to just being backwards in private, with the occasional hatespeech slip-up, then I would be happy to. Since their weird claims and doctrines are destroying millions upon millions of lives however (in the third world nowadays, as they can't really get away with much in the west), I do take some interest in their dealings, even if they'll never have any effects on me whatsoever.

Lets hope no one believes this man, although maybe I'm being a tad foolish to think that's possible.

GloatingSwine:

Hardcore_gamer:
So the Vatican is still backwards, so what. They have always been like that, just ignore them.

No, actually let's not ignore them, they're a hugely influential organization with a great deal of power in many societies, and they are using that power to foster division and hatred, cause suffering due to AIDS by elevating their own doctrine over the lives of real people, and conceal the crimes of their members.

They need to be held to a higher standard, not simply due to the fact that they claim they are of a higher standard due to their religion, but because their potential for social damage is massively higher than many other people.

In theory, their instructions do not spread AIDS.
They say "Don't have sex with condoms", but they sure as hell don't say "Do it with everyone you see."
When they say "No condoms" they also say "Abstinence", pope fanatics who really listen to what the church says do not spread AIDS (providing their parents didn't have it) because they would only have sex to get children with their spouse.

No excuses for paedophiles, however. They've been doing that for hundreds of years.

Well I'm glad they've finally found an appropriate explanation for all those decades, if not centuries, of child abuse.

Becuase no-one was buying that 'Satan made them do it' crap. Even less were distracted by pointing out all the child abusers who AREN'T Catholic Clergy. (Dozens apparently, literally dozens)

And the "Its all a jewish conspiracy" stuff http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/11/catholic-bishop-blames-jews only draws attrention to the church's collabaooration with the nazi's (necessary as that might have been at the time becuase they might have been, errr, fined or something if they had done a single fucking thing to prevent the holocaust) http://www.concordatwatch.eu/showtopic.php?kb_header_id=752

So we can all rest easy in our beds now that we've discovered its the fault of homosexuals. Maybe we should make all homosexuals wear yellow stars on their jackets and 'resettle' them somewhere far away like madagascar...

Pedo = Homo!11!!

That is the level the vatican is at now? All moral and personal issue aside, its an odd tatic to defend a preist who got a girl pregnant.

Monocle Man:
In theory, their instructions do not spread AIDS.
They say "Don't have sex with condoms", but they sure as hell don't say "Do it with everyone you see."

They say condoms spread aids. Thats a lie that will get people killed.

Double post.

Monocle Man:

In theory, their instructions do not spread AIDS.
They say "Don't have sex with condoms", but they sure as hell don't say "Do it with everyone you see."
When they say "No condoms" they also say "Abstinence", pope fanatics who really listen to what the church says do not spread AIDS (providing their parents didn't have it) because they would only have sex to get children with their spouse.

In practise, abstinence does not work, because people don't. As I said, maintaining the Catholic approach in the face of real world evidence that it is harmful is placing doctrine above lives.

It's also worth noting that it "abstinence" in the form of total celibacy which seperates Catholic priests from Protestant, Jewish, or Islamic clergy. Which of the four groups has a wide pattern of diddling kids? Oh, right.

Never mind the fact that they also attempt to discredit the use of condoms as a protective measure, up to and including one African bishop claiming that they were deliberately designed to let the AIDS through as part of a great white conspiracy against black Africans. (and before you complain that it's just one person, it's one person who speaks with the authority of the church.)

Monocle Man:

GloatingSwine:

Hardcore_gamer:
So the Vatican is still backwards, so what. They have always been like that, just ignore them.

No, actually let's not ignore them, they're a hugely influential organization with a great deal of power in many societies, and they are using that power to foster division and hatred, cause suffering due to AIDS by elevating their own doctrine over the lives of real people, and conceal the crimes of their members.

They need to be held to a higher standard, not simply due to the fact that they claim they are of a higher standard due to their religion, but because their potential for social damage is massively higher than many other people.

In theory, their instructions do not spread AIDS.
They say "Don't have sex with condoms", but they sure as hell don't say "Do it with everyone you see."
When they say "No condoms" they also say "Abstinence", pope fanatics who really listen to what the church says do not spread AIDS (providing their parents didn't have it) because they would only have sex to get children with their spouse.

Telling people who don't practice abstinence not to use condoms is like denying medical assistance to a man whio has fallen off a building becuase you told himnever to go up there in the first place.

The catholic church actively spreads disinformation (ie lies) about sexuallty transmitted diseases. For example, for a number of years there was a catholic banner in a doorway on O'connell St. in Dublin which said 'If the HIV virus is the size of a pin, the holes in a latex condom are the size of this doorway. Condoms don't prevent AID's.' Catholic literature on HIV and AID's is riddled with these kind of deadly lies.

Their rules on sex are so ludicrous they know full well most people will not follow them yet the still oppose basic protection agaisnt this terrible disease.

And they clearly don't a flying rats ass about vulnerable groups like prostitutes for whom condom use is literally a matter of life and death.

The AID's issue is a far more serious scandal than the sexual abuse scandal imo becuase the suffering caused is orders of magnitude greater.

GunboatDiplomat:

So we can all rest easy in our beds now that we've discovered its the fault of homosexuals. Maybe we should make all homosexuals wear yellow stars on their jackets and 'resettle' them somewhere far away like madagascar...

Pink triangles, I think you'll find.

Wow just wow thats an impressive display of ignorance i've ever heard it doesn't even make logical sence

GloatingSwine:

GunboatDiplomat:

So we can all rest easy in our beds now that we've discovered its the fault of homosexuals. Maybe we should make all homosexuals wear yellow stars on their jackets and 'resettle' them somewhere far away like madagascar...

Pink triangles, I think you'll find.

I would think if anything they would go for rainbow stickers. Ever been to a pride parade?

OT: H's a deal all you theists out there. I'll ignore these assholes, you ignore the atheist assholes, and we live happily ever after!(ignorance is bliss after all)

jamesworkshop:
Wow just wow thats an impressive display of ignorance i've ever heard it doesn't even make logical sence

Neither does that sentence.
When making short and sweet replies please at least have the courtesy of using proper spelling and punctuation lest well all take you for an idiot, or a troll......or both.
OT: Yeah, it makes no logical sense. Really, what did you expect from these people? A well thought out argument with some sort of physical proof to back it up?

ARREST THE POPE

I dunno, I mean isn't molesting little boys gay?

Lullabye:

jamesworkshop:
Wow just wow thats an impressive display of ignorance i've ever heard it doesn't even make logical sence

Neither does that sentence.
When making short and sweet replies please at least have the courtesy of using proper spelling and punctuation lest well all take you for an idiot, or a troll......or both.
OT: Yeah, it makes no logical sense. Really, what did you expect from these people? A well thought out argument with some sort of physical proof to back it up?

You think i'm a troll? I didn't even get a chance to call someone Hitler yet.

I didn't expect a logical argument but this is someone thats going to get noticed and called out by a lot of people a statement like that carries no weight to back it up especially from a group that normally has a lot of scripture to back them up.

jamesworkshop:

You think i'm a troll? I didn't even get a chance to call someone Hitler yet.

I didn't expect a logical argument but this is someone thats going to get noticed and called out by a lot of people a statement like that carries no weight to back it up especially from a group that normal has a lot of scripture to back them up.

What?

GunboatDiplomat:

Monocle Man:

In theory, their instructions do not spread AIDS.
They say "Don't have sex with condoms", but they sure as hell don't say "Do it with everyone you see."
When they say "No condoms" they also say "Abstinence", pope fanatics who really listen to what the church says do not spread AIDS (providing their parents didn't have it) because they would only have sex to get children with their spouse.

Telling people who don't practice abstinence not to use condoms is like denying medical assistance to a man whio has fallen off a building becuase you told himnever to go up there in the first place.

The catholic church actively spreads disinformation (ie lies) about sexuallty transmitted diseases. For example, for a number of years there was a catholic banner in a doorway on O'connell St. in Dublin which said 'If the HIV virus is the size of a pin, the holes in a latex condom are the size of this doorway. Condoms don't prevent AID's.' Catholic literature on HIV and AID's is riddled with these kind of deadly lies.

Their rules on sex are so ludicrous they know full well most people will not follow them yet the still oppose basic protection agaisnt this terrible disease.

And they clearly don't a flying rats ass about vulnerable groups like prostitutes for whom condom use is literally a matter of life and death.

The AID's issue is a far more serious scandal than the sexual abuse scandal imo becuase the suffering caused is orders of magnitude greater.

I'm not saying anything of their diabolic lies, nor have I researched in those.
But never have I heard a speech where the people may hump as much as they want as long as they don't use the devil's tool that is the condom.
I'm quite sure they condemn both the excessive humping and the condom (do tell me if I'm wrong)
So if people listened to the whole thing, and do exactly as told, there wouldn't be any problem.
Abstinence is possible, sure it may be hard, sure it may be tempting but you can live without humping someone.

When I went to primary school we went to the church every so often and I still remember a story where a man could continue in two directions:
- One was a beautiful and very wide hall, decorated with flowers and gold.
- The other was a small hole, just big enough to crawl through. Undecorated and with some spiky bits sticking out.
The nice stroll in the golden hallway led to Hell, the difficult crawl led to Heaven.

If you always take the easy way, never put some effort in something to do the morally right you're doomed to turn to sins which lead to Hell.

Abstinence is your crawlspace.

It isn't a way of giving an impossible task with the intention to spread disease, it's telling you the so-called road to heaven and if you don't follow it you'll end up in Hell.

Having sex with a condom is evil because you're not doing it to have children.
Having sex for pleasure is evil because, again, you're not doing it to have children.
Having sex with strangers is evil because you do not plan to take care of the child she might bear.
The only sex that is good is sex with your wife with the sole intend of having a child. All other sex is considered evil.
The reason they say condoms are bad is not because they want to spread diseases, but because saying condoms are good means having sex for pleasure is good.

Your metaphor is a little off too. Unless the medical assistance refers to Heaven.
In that case it becomes the same as denying a man freedom because he murdered someone after you showed him that murder is against the law. Which is perfectly acceptable, is it not?

To these people sex for pleasure is evil. If they want to advocate their believe they'll say it's evil and everything that makes it easier to have sex for pleasure with no consequences is evil too.

jamesworkshop:

I didn't expect a logical argument but this is someone thats going to get noticed and called out by a lot of people a statement like that carries no weight to back it up especially from a group that normally has a lot of scripture to back them up.

No, it's not, because anyone who actually does call them out on it is just going to be branded a shrill antitheist who secretly yearns to send all religious people to the ovens. And the Catholic Church is going to go on doing harm well in excess of the social good it does.

Monocle Man:

Having sex with a condom is evil because you're not doing it to have children.
Having sex for pleasure is evil because, again, you're not doing it to have children.
Having sex with strangers is evil because you do not plan to take care of the child she might bear.
The only sex that is good is sex with your wife with the sole intend of having a child. All other sex is considered evil.
The reason they say condoms are bad is not because they want to spread diseases, but because saying condoms are good means having sex for pleasure is good.

Which all rather raises the question, why should we take advice on sexual politics from a single gender organization who have solemnly sworn to never actually engage in the act themselves?

Surely they are the very least qualified people on the earth to ask about sex. Even a sniggering thirteen year old might get laid one day, and so has more validity to his opinions on the subject.

GloatingSwine:

In practise, abstinence does not work, because people don't. As I said, maintaining the Catholic approach in the face of real world evidence that it is harmful is placing doctrine above lives.

Then in spiritual practise, people go to Hell.
If a religion keeps changing, people say they don't take themselves seriously.
If a religion keeps their ideals people will call them impossible because their sinners are today's regular people.

If you believe in the pope's God you do exactly as he says or go to Hell. If you don't you better listen to those doctors that are giving your means to protect yourself from AIDS.

GloatingSwine:

Monocle Man:

Having sex with a condom is evil because you're not doing it to have children.
Having sex for pleasure is evil because, again, you're not doing it to have children.
Having sex with strangers is evil because you do not plan to take care of the child she might bear.
The only sex that is good is sex with your wife with the sole intend of having a child. All other sex is considered evil.
The reason they say condoms are bad is not because they want to spread diseases, but because saying condoms are good means having sex for pleasure is good.

Which all rather raises the question, why should we take advice on sexual politics from a single gender organization who have solemnly sworn to never actually engage in the act themselves?

Their credibility doesn't matter. If you believe them you do exactly as you are told or go to their Hell. If you do not believe them you listen to others.

GloatingSwine:

jamesworkshop:

I didn't expect a logical argument but this is someone thats going to get noticed and called out by a lot of people a statement like that carries no weight to back it up especially from a group that normally has a lot of scripture to back them up.

No, it's not, because anyone who actually does call them out on it is just going to be branded a shrill antitheist who secretly yearns to send all religious people to the ovens. And the Catholic Church is going to go on doing harm well in excess of the social good it does.

True that is a standard responce to criticism but plenty of people are not scared enought to keep their mouths shut, most people in the thread are not and I doubt most of the western population is particular scared of the church.
Protestants for instance enjoy the chance to take a shot at the Catholic church whenever they can.

How someone still wants to be associated with those people is beyond me...

And they will get away with this, without a single consequence. They will get away with this.

Monocle Man:

Their credibility doesn't matter. If you believe them you do exactly as you are told or go to their Hell. If you do not believe them you listen to others.

Which is why their credibility matters, because they have the power to do immense harm to real people.

We're not talking theological niceties here, we're talking forty million AIDS victims in Africa, we're talking tens of thousands of child sex abuse victims in America, Ireland, Australia, Germany, and all over the world, we're talking rampant homophobia in developing countries.

We are talking real suffering, and the Catholic Church promotes and prolongs it.

Wake the fuck up, get your head out of the clouds, and look at what's happening to real people.

jamesworkshop:

Protestants for instance enjoy the chance to take a shot at the Catholic church whenever they can.

I reckon if the Pope does come to Britain we should hang as many portraits of Henry VIII around the place as possible.

Knight Templar:

jamesworkshop:

You think i'm a troll? I didn't even get a chance to call someone Hitler yet.

I didn't expect a logical argument but this is someone thats going to get noticed and called out by a lot of people a statement like that carries no weight to back it up especially from a group that normal has a lot of scripture to back them up.

What?

I was replying to Lullabye, I didn't accidental quote you did I?

If you didn't understand, what I meant was often Relgious folk often have scripture to back them up (a bit like a source) and thus it's strange for them not to cite the studies claiming a link between homosexuality and pedophilia.

GloatingSwine:

jamesworkshop:

Protestants for instance enjoy the chance to take a shot at the Catholic church whenever they can.

I reckon if the Pope does come to Britain we should hang as many portraits of Henry VIII around the place as possible.

Nice burn I forgot we had our own offical Church of England

GloatingSwine:

Monocle Man:

Their credibility doesn't matter. If you believe them you do exactly as you are told or go to their Hell. If you do not believe them you listen to others.

Which is why their credibility matters, because they have the power to do immense harm to real people.

We're not talking theological niceties here, we're talking forty million AIDS victims in Africa, we're talking tens of thousands of child sex abuse victims in America, Ireland, Australia, Germany, and all over the world, we're talking rampant homophobia in developing countries.

We are talking real suffering, and the Catholic Church promotes and prolongs it.

Wake the fuck up, get your head out of the clouds, and look at what's happening to real people.

It's people who believe that everything is nice and dandy as long as they partially follow their Catholic instructions.
The church says "No condoms AND no sex with anyone besides your wife", then they assume they're doing good when they only do the "no condoms" part.
It's as if you believe you're good when you murder someone but don't steal of their corps.

If someone stones a homo they're acting against the religion. If someone abuses a child they're acting against the religion.
If someone goes against the religion "God will punish him".
They're supposed to respect other people and if those other people happen to be gay they will be punished by god for their "impurity". That's supposed to be their philosophy. That's supposed to mean a whole lot priests are going to Hell.

But of course everyone ignores the parts in their holy book they don't like and contradictions are especially useful to mask your own sins.

In the ideal world everyone will think for themselves, everyone will treat others like how they want to be treated and your wealth will not depend on your origin but on your choices.
We're not there, yet. Until that time the world will be filled with crazies and it's very difficult to fight it.
You can answer the Vatican' second-in-command with "Then explain why your priests abuse children while many homosexuals don't."
The ability to question anyone is necessary. Unfortunately we are not given that ability. Unfortunately there are many people who bend the truth when they fear it may reach the public.

Can you REALLY say that celibacy causes child molestation?
I don't buy that at all.

Neither does homosexuality.
Still, the OP offers a false dichotomy between the two. Maybe the priesthood should just stop sheltering society's pervs.

Monocle Man:

It's people who believe that everything is nice and dandy as long as they partially follow their Catholic instructions.
The church says "No condoms AND no sex with anyone besides your wife", then they assume they're doing good when they only do the "no condoms" part.

Except the Catholic instructions don't work, they never have worked, and they never will work. They are inappropriate to the task, and so a body which insists that they are followed is culpable for the harm they do. This is a widely recognised principle which informs, for instance, all modern health and safety and public health legislation. If the steps taken by an authority are inappropriate to the task of preventing the harms they seek to prevent, then that authority is culpable for the harm done.

In the ideal world everyone will think for themselves, everyone will treat others like how they want to be treated and your wealth will not depend on your origin but on your choices.
We're not there, yet. Until that time the world will be filled with crazies and it's very difficult to fight it.

And it will be even more difficult to fight it if people keep making excuses for the harms done by the religious.

GloatingSwine:

Monocle Man:

It's people who believe that everything is nice and dandy as long as they partially follow their Catholic instructions.
The church says "No condoms AND no sex with anyone besides your wife", then they assume they're doing good when they only do the "no condoms" part.

Except the Catholic instructions don't work, they never have worked, and they never will work. They are inappropriate to the task, and so a body which insists that they are followed is culpable for the harm they do. This is a widely recognised principle which informs, for instance, all modern health and safety and public health legislation. If the steps taken by an authority are inappropriate to the task of preventing the harms they seek to prevent, then that authority is culpable for the harm done.

In the ideal world everyone will think for themselves, everyone will treat others like how they want to be treated and your wealth will not depend on your origin but on your choices.
We're not there, yet. Until that time the world will be filled with crazies and it's very difficult to fight it.

And it will be even more difficult to fight it if people keep making excuses for the harms done by the religious.

In the immortal words of Gareth Kuhn: "If you're stupid enough to bang without a condom, you're stupid enough to die."
And that's that. Wander out into a busy road with your eyes closed, and chances are, you may well die. Do it repeatedly, and that chance naturally increases exponentially.
Also, considering that Protestant parts of Africa still see massive AIDS rates, we can assume that much of this is due to the inveterate stupidity of the Third World.

Yes, the gays are the ones touching up little girls. Of course.

 Pages 1 2 3 4 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked