Socialism, why are American's so afraid?

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Okay, so almost every prospering country in the world is a Socialist country.

But but but, Socialism is bad! It infringes on my civil liberties you may say. Okay, you could say that but I would just say shut up.

In those countries they have legal use of pot, gay people are free to marry, they have paid vacations, free health care, maternity leave is 6 months, better road and rail systems, and people employers (most of them at least) Will let employees clock in for 2 hours a day to get paid while at the gym.

Now, why is this bad? I think that American's have been tricked by big business owners. We, and by we I mostly mean Republicans, have been tricked into thinking they are fighting for Capitalism when they are actually fighting for big business, and believe me, that is two very very different things.

So what do you think? Why does this scare us? I am sure there will be a wave of people telling me how wrong and stupid I am but I really hope someone can argue all my points and not be rude about it.

iplaygamesyo:
Okay, so almost every prospering country in the world is a Socialist country.

But but but, Socialism is bad! It infringes on my civil liberties you may say. Okay, you could say that but I would just say shut up.

In those countries they have legal use of pot, gay people are free to marry, they have paid vacations, free health care, maternity leave is 6 months, better road and rail systems, and people employers (most of them at least) Will let employees clock in for 2 hours a day to get paid while at the gym.

Now, why is this bad? I think that American's have been tricked by big business owners. We, and by we I mostly mean Republicans, have been tricked into thinking they are fighting for Capitalism when they are actually fighting for big business, and believe me, that is two very very different things.

Not all of those things you stated are universally true. Just sayin'. Also, they aren't "socialist" countries as such. They're mixed economies. Economies with aspects of both free markets and socialism.

I didn't say all just most. Such as Spain, England, France, and Italy for a few.

Labeling something makes it easier to define it as other and create an us/them dichotomy. Makes people easier to control and influence. Easier to compare it to extreme and negative examples of said philosophy (Stalinist Russia in this case), and control the national discussion on politics.

Because the ruskies were socialist and we can't be them. It's mostly just demonizing other viewpoints so ours feels more correct, kind of like how everyone cringes when communism is brought up.

well for one thing they are so ill informed they think they live is some theoretical political system rather than reality:

as someone has already alluded to everyone in the world lives inside a "mixed economy" and always has done.

all the chatter about everything else is purely that but unfortunately US politics, the ingrained two party system and the ease of the right/left right/wrong black/white view on the mind leads a situation where people don't want to see the much more complicated reality of the world for what it is.

So do you guys think we would benifit from switching to a Socialist nation or at the very least letting the gov have more regulations of businesses?

there's no such thing as a "Socialist nation" and there never has been

i don't know what you think your nation is at the moment but if you are given to using terminology like that i would bet that you are wrong.

mikozero:
there's no such thing as a "Socialist nation" and there never has been

i don't know what you think your nation is at the moment but if you are given to using terminology like that i would bet that you are wrong.

What are you talking about? That does not even make sense. Are you saying it does not exist. So Socialism is like Big Foot?

point to what you think might be a "Socialist nation" and i'll tell you that it still has all the trappings of "the opposite" ticking away somewhere to varying degrees (even the likes of north korea has multinationals working away on it's soil)

the theoretical disscussions of political systems that most people indulge in (including politicians) have no reflection in reality.

that's the point i'm making.

they are just easy to teach, accept and discuss because for the most part they are dealt with in dualistic terms.

you can copy the little cross diagram out a text books and plot single points of contact where you think people or nations or whatever fall within it and get graded "A" but the truth of the matter is the real world doesn't work like that.

Folks equate socialism to communism in this country.

Something I haven't made my stance clear on as of yet: the idea of Communism isn't a bad one, nor is one of the Free Market. Both have good aspects which are not mutually exclusive. If something works in another country, but would have problems of x, y, and z in yours, find a way to fix these issues, then incorporate it into your country.

People equate socialism to communism, and since the cold war, there has been a sub-culture about hating communism. Most Americans against socialism couldn't define it if you asked.

In simple terms, the answer to your question is ignorance. Not all Americans are afraid of socialism, by the way.

ultrachicken:
People equate socialism to communism, and since the cold war, there has been a sub-culture about hating communism. Most Americans against socialism couldn't define it if you asked.

In simple terms, the answer to your question is ignorance. Not all Americans are afraid of socialism, by the way.

Most Americans would define socialism as "the economic system of communism."

Can we get our resident communist to comment on this?

Why is America so afraid of socialism?
Because what it actually knows about countries that use mixed socialist along with democratic systems is tiny and the ignorance is something played up to by their media.

Naheal:

ultrachicken:
People equate socialism to communism, and since the cold war, there has been a sub-culture about hating communism. Most Americans against socialism couldn't define it if you asked.

In simple terms, the answer to your question is ignorance. Not all Americans are afraid of socialism, by the way.

Most Americans would define socialism as "the economic system of communism."

Can we get our resident communist to comment on this?

I'm not a "Communist" myself, but.. Communism is a damned economic system in itself. Socialism is more political. Though then again, I don't expect much American's to even want to equate Socialism with anything other than "those darned Red's/Ruskies!", although humorously ignorant in itself.

ShadowsofHope:

Naheal:

ultrachicken:
People equate socialism to communism, and since the cold war, there has been a sub-culture about hating communism. Most Americans against socialism couldn't define it if you asked.

In simple terms, the answer to your question is ignorance. Not all Americans are afraid of socialism, by the way.

Most Americans would define socialism as "the economic system of communism."

Can we get our resident communist to comment on this?

I'm not a "Communist" myself, but.. Communism is a damned economic system in itself. Socialism is more political. Though then again, I don't expect much American's to even want to equate Socialism with anything other than "those darned Red's/Ruskies!", although humorously ignorant in itself.

Considering you lean more towards socialist, I believe you're qualified to answer that.

Naheal:

ShadowsofHope:

Naheal:

ultrachicken:
People equate socialism to communism, and since the cold war, there has been a sub-culture about hating communism. Most Americans against socialism couldn't define it if you asked.

In simple terms, the answer to your question is ignorance. Not all Americans are afraid of socialism, by the way.

Most Americans would define socialism as "the economic system of communism."

Can we get our resident communist to comment on this?

I'm not a "Communist" myself, but.. Communism is a damned economic system in itself. Socialism is more political. Though then again, I don't expect much American's to even want to equate Socialism with anything other than "those darned Red's/Ruskies!", although humorously ignorant in itself.

Considering you lean more towards socialist, I believe you're qualified to answer that.

Afaik, neither communism nor socialism are an "economic system". They are political systems, or closer to the truth, ideologies.

The economic system of the CCCP was a planned economy, a lot of other communist states adopted this practice but its not inherently tied to communism.
China is an example for this, they bent towards capitalism in the macro economy but on the micro scale it looks different.

But as i said, its just afaik, and i might be wrong about this.

Naheal:

ShadowsofHope:

Naheal:

ultrachicken:
People equate socialism to communism, and since the cold war, there has been a sub-culture about hating communism. Most Americans against socialism couldn't define it if you asked.

In simple terms, the answer to your question is ignorance. Not all Americans are afraid of socialism, by the way.

Most Americans would define socialism as "the economic system of communism."

Can we get our resident communist to comment on this?

I'm not a "Communist" myself, but.. Communism is a damned economic system in itself. Socialism is more political. Though then again, I don't expect much American's to even want to equate Socialism with anything other than "those darned Red's/Ruskies!", although humorously ignorant in itself.

Considering you lean more towards socialist, I believe you're qualified to answer that.

I've got to start battling ignorance of my political stance at some point. Mind as well take every opportunity I can, even if in vain some of those points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

"As a political ideology, communism is usually considered to be a branch of socialism, a broad group of economic and political philosophies that draw on various political and intellectual movements with origins in the work of theorists of the Industrial Revolution and the French Revolution.[4] Communism attempts to offer an alternative to the problems with the capitalist market economy and the legacy of imperialism and nationalism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#Social_and_political_theory

While Socialism has both political and economic theories and ideals behind it as a philosophy (as does any other philosophy), Communism came directly from the ideals of Karl Marx. "The classical and Marxist conception, where socialism is a stage of economic development in which wage labour, private property in the means of production and monetary relations have been made redundant through the development of the productive forces, so that capital accumulation has been superseded by economic planning. Economic planning in this definition means conscious allocation of economic inputs and the means of production by the associated producers to directly maximise use-values as opposed to exchange-values, in contrast to the "anarchy of production" of capitalism."

Most modern day Socialists fall under this category: "The Social Democratic concept, which defines socialism as a set of values rather than a specific type of social and economic organisation. It includes unconditional support for parliamentary democracy, gradual and reformist attempts to establish socialism, and support for socially progressive causes. Social democrats are not opposed to the market or private property; instead they try to ameliorate the effects of capitalism through a welfare state, which relies on the market as the fundamental coordinating entity in the economy and a degree of public ownership/public provision of public goods in an economy otherwise dominated by private enterprise."

It really depends on your view of Socialist theory to answer that question.

adamtm:

Naheal:

ShadowsofHope:

Naheal:

ultrachicken:
People equate socialism to communism, and since the cold war, there has been a sub-culture about hating communism. Most Americans against socialism couldn't define it if you asked.

In simple terms, the answer to your question is ignorance. Not all Americans are afraid of socialism, by the way.

Most Americans would define socialism as "the economic system of communism."

Can we get our resident communist to comment on this?

I'm not a "Communist" myself, but.. Communism is a damned economic system in itself. Socialism is more political. Though then again, I don't expect much American's to even want to equate Socialism with anything other than "those darned Red's/Ruskies!", although humorously ignorant in itself.

Considering you lean more towards socialist, I believe you're qualified to answer that.

Afaik, neither communism nor socialism are an "economic system". They are political systems, or closer to the truth, ideologies.

The economic system of the CCCP was a planned economy, a lot of other communist states adopted this practice but its not inherently tied to communism.
China is an example for this, they bent towards capitalism in the macro economy but on the micro scale it looks different.

But as i said, its just afaik, and i might be wrong about this.

I forget the guy's name (Hammer and sickle avatar), but I'd really like to hear his side on this. It's like asking a teabagger or a republican what their ideology is.

God dammit.

Can we please stop referring to the European countries as socialist? They are not socialist in any form, other than in angsty American Republican jargon.

The European countries are capitalist democracies with open economies, but with a greater dedication to social security. Which, again, does not make it socialist.

If you must stick a label to it, than please... please use the term 'social-democracy'. Because, honestly, the actual socialists are a minority in pretty much every European country. And even they are firmly stuck in a democratic tradition.

adamtm:

Afaik, neither communism nor socialism are an "economic system". They are political systems, or closer to the truth, ideologies.

Very true. Though the core of Communist policy and ideology focused more upon how the economy ran under a Socialistic government, or in Soviet Russia's case - a dictatorship. Which of course, was never the plan of Karl Marx to have. Lenin basically went on his own ideals in that case.

ShadowsofHope:

adamtm:

Afaik, neither communism nor socialism are an "economic system". They are political systems, or closer to the truth, ideologies.

Very true. Though the core of Communist policy and ideology focused more upon how the economy ran under a Socialistic government, or in Soviet Russia's case - a dictatorship. Which of course, was never the plan of Karl Marx to have. Lenin basically went on his own ideals in that case.

Of course, after all you need to "beat" free market economy to declare victory as a communistic country, its just something that stuck since Stalin.
Communism started wrong, it tried to be better at everything. No matter what country you are, if you stretch your resources too thin, you are going to fail.

Thats why i brought up China, they sort of learned from past mistakes and mostly focus on fixing their internal problems first before trying to dominate the world (market, ideas, etc.).
Also they did the smart thing of waiting a generation with their more intense international relationships. That way young Chinese have no way of comparing their system with a previous one, they so to speak, do not get "tempted" by capitalism.

Of course i still disagree with their politics, ideology an policy, but i just think they are smart(er).

adamtm:

ShadowsofHope:

adamtm:

Afaik, neither communism nor socialism are an "economic system". They are political systems, or closer to the truth, ideologies.

Very true. Though the core of Communist policy and ideology focused more upon how the economy ran under a Socialistic government, or in Soviet Russia's case - a dictatorship. Which of course, was never the plan of Karl Marx to have. Lenin basically went on his own ideals in that case.

Of course, after all you need to "beat" free market economy to declare victory as a communistic country, its just something that stuck since Stalin.
Communism started wrong, it tried to be better at everything. No matter what country you are, if you stretch your resources too thin, you are going to fail.

Thats why i brought up China, they sort of learned from past mistakes and mostly focus on fixing their internal problems first before trying to dominate the world (market, ideas, etc.).
Also they did the smart thing of waiting a generation with their more intense international relationships. That way young Chinese have no way of comparing their system with a previous one, they so to speak, do not get "tempted" by capitalism.

Of course i still disagree with their politics, ideology an policy, but i just think they are smart(er).

Quite. Soviet Russia tried to expand far too fast without adequate planning to attempt to make match with the Free Market America that was thriving economically beyond doubt. While Russia is a country filled with rather rich resources, any political leader from Lenin up was more focused with power than actually trying to work along the lines of what Communism was always meant to accomplish (the citizens well-being and welfare first overall, directed by more or less centralized government planning through both government census and economist input). Especially Stalin, whom basically screwed original Communistic ideals for his own cult worship Stalinism (Yes, Stalin was never a Communist Americans!), and made Soviet Russia into more Nazi Germany without the Corporatism. (leadership wise)

Countries like Sweden and Canada now are more along the lines of successful Socialistic governmental structure and economic policies in the modern era. Though I should have been more specific in my first post response to Naheal, as Communism compared to Socialism is more focused on the economics, whereas Socialism alone is more politically charged in philosophy. Despite the two being careful branches of one another.

I think it is because America is still a young country, they make the mistakes us older countries have long forgotten. They have much to learn whilst growing up but eventually they will old and wise like the rest of us.

All this fear of socialism comes from the cold war as others have said. The people who truly fear socialism however misguided I (as a socialist) believe they are I can still understand where they are coming from. These people were brought up in an environment of fear perpetuated by the government in order to quell any opposition to the corporations which are the people who truly rule through their puppets in the senate. Through out the majority of their life they have been told that communism is evil and we of the younger generation really weren't around to be stuffed with all the propaganda that ran rampant during those times. It does not however excuse the ignorance of the good that socialism can do for a country, these people are holding us back because they can't be bothered to even get a rudimentary knowledge of socialism by going on Wikipedia before they sit there and whines about how Obama is a socialist.

GrimTuesday:
..whines about how Obama is a socialist.

Which in actuality, is quite an insult to most of any self-respecting Socialist out there. Including myself.

socialism is teh devil! (just kidden :) )

Thing is that the US has been transformed to a highly nationalist country. Class identity has been replaced by the notion that 'we are all Americans' and thus this somehow means "equal and the same". This overshadows the divide between rich and poor whom both have different goals and needs. If people regained their class identity you would see a demand for a more socialist oriented political party because both the republicans and the democrats are lead by big business and career politicians who do not support the needs of the poor or the workingclass.

Side note: There are several socialist groups active in the US. Some have a long history of actual support for socialism and social change. Do a google search!

http://www.socialistalternative.org/

"I want to smoke pot. Let's become a socialist police-state."

Don't like the country? Leave.

Cassita:
"I want to smoke pot. Let's become a socialist police-state."

Don't like the country? Leave.

INGENIOUS!
That fixes EVERYTHING!
WHY DID NOBODY ELSE THINK OF THIS MARVELOUS SOLUTION FOR OUR PROBLEMS!?

No wait...its complete BS.

Cassita:
"I want to smoke pot. Let's become a socialist police-state."

Don't like the country? Leave.

Or stay and try to change this problem.

Zef Otter:

Cassita:
"I want to smoke pot. Let's become a socialist police-state."

Don't like the country? Leave.

Or stay and try to change this problem.

The problem's yours. The country is fine. Get out of all that freedom and go hang out with some repressed citizens if that's your scene.

God I hate middle-class people living in a free country bitching about all the freedom they have.

Cassita:

Zef Otter:

Cassita:
"I want to smoke pot. Let's become a socialist police-state."

Don't like the country? Leave.

Or stay and try to change this problem.

The problem's yours. The country is fine. Get out of all that freedom and go hang out with some repressed citizens if that's your scene.

God I hate middle-class people living in a free country bitching about all the freedom they have.

oh look a republican :)

Cassita:

Zef Otter:

Cassita:
"I want to smoke pot. Let's become a socialist police-state."

Don't like the country? Leave.

Or stay and try to change this problem.

The problem's yours. The country is fine. Get out of all that freedom and go hang out with some repressed citizens if that's your scene.

God I hate middle-class people living in a free country bitching about all the freedom they have.

I think i broke my funnybone, seriously, funniest shit ive ever read on here.

Zef Otter:

Cassita:

Zef Otter:

Cassita:
"I want to smoke pot. Let's become a socialist police-state."

Don't like the country? Leave.

Or stay and try to change this problem.

The problem's yours. The country is fine. Get out of all that freedom and go hang out with some repressed citizens if that's your scene.

God I hate middle-class people living in a free country bitching about all the freedom they have.

oh look a republican :)

You might want to have a look at what fucking country I'm in.

God damn, why are there so many idiots on tonight?

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