Gay Conversion Therapy Victim Tells His Story

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-manske/gay-conversion-therapy_b_997330.html

Basically a man telling his experiences with trying to be "cured" man these "therapists" should be arrested for torture. Also man southern baptists are crazy people.

People who think Gays could be "cured" are the ones who need therapy.

Isn't religion great?

To be fair there are also atheists who think "the ghey" can be cured.

It would be a good idea to bring down the force of the law on religious extremists running such shows. One or two convictions, and the whole circus is going to disappear and go underground, and hundreds of people whom might otherwise fall victim of it will have a better life.

Based on the facts, there's no arguing they make themselves guilty of psychological torture and assault. It's extremely harmfull to make a person hate themselves.
All that's needed to solve it is for society to mature enough to realise "But I'm doing this because some desert tribe wrote a book" is not a valid excuse to hurt other people.


But there's even more harmfull things about. Some religious extremists also organise 'healings' where they try to cure homosexuals infected with HIV from both homosexuality and HIV. Guess what's going to happen when someone truly believes he no longer has HIV and 'goes forth to multiply'?

Oh wow.

That was great.

Cut all government funding / tax breaks to any institution that performs or endorses these "Gay-Wellness" programs, please.

Blablahb:
Based on the facts, there's no arguing they make themselves guilty of psychological torture and assault. It's extremely harmfull to make a person hate themselves.
All that's needed to solve it is for society to mature enough to realise "But I'm doing this because some desert tribe wrote a book" is not a valid excuse to hurt other people.

Neither is "I think its wrong so lets ban something that could be considered constitutional"
But i do agree that what they did to him his wrong. I didnt watch the video but from the text above sounds torturous. Sounds like something out of Guantanamo bay. I don't think gay can be cured because there is nothing to cure. Its not a disease. Its a sexual attraction just like how some men are attracted to husky women.
in the words of the immortal philosopher lady gaga "I was born this way"

Blablahb:
It would be a good idea to bring down the force of the law on religious extremists running such shows. One or two convictions, and the whole circus is going to disappear and go underground, and hundreds of people whom might otherwise fall victim of it will have a better life.

While I agree competely that those programs are useless, and probably harmful, what exactly would you charge them with? Presumably an adult voluntarily entered them. To ban the physical harm, you would also have to ban full contact sports (actually probably all professional sports), half the food on the market, S&M, Bondage, multiple kinds of rollplay, water sports (not talking the kind that involves real water).

To ban the psychological harm, you would have to ban all the above, plus name calling and arguably every social action group you like because I guarentee I can find someone else who thinks its harmful to you.

Kendarik:
While I agree competely that those programs are useless, and probably harmful, what exactly would you charge them with?

Assault, possibly agrevated. Systematic psychological abuse and torture ranks as a assault.

It's especially the systematic component, and the inescapability for the victims that elevates it well above some random name calling. Another circumstance is that victims are coerced using false information, to trick them into undergoing such a thing.

It's the same as lying to someone that he's a brilliant fighter, could take on anyone while they're not even a good amateur, and then make them fight someone for money in which they get seriously hurt. In such a case the one who tricked the other into undergoing it has committed a criminal offense by conciously exposing them to serious harm under false pretenses.

hotsauceman:
Neither is "I think its wrong so lets ban something that could be considered constitutional"

I'm not sure where the torture of other people based on a mythology is allowed, in *any* country's constitution.

Okay, that's a rhetorical exageration. North Korea or Iran probably allows it, but still... All your comparison's are way of. Even fighting sports are for recreation, stress relief, enjoyment, or in case of professionals, money. bdsm related sex is for enjoyment. Trying to cure homosexuals however is for the sole purpose of doing them harm.

If you want to make an accurate comparison, you'd have to compare it to fraud or happy slapping. In both those activities, the perpetrator makes himself feel better at the expense of his victims, much like how religious fanatics seek to enhance their status as a 'good believer' at the expense of their victims by 'healing' them. Note how both those activities we can compare it to are a criminal offense.

His parents should be in jail for child abuse. My god, that is horrible.

Yikes. Yeah, horrible stuff. Not really sure what else to say. This extreme homophobia needs to go, simple as that.

Steven Weinberg words are ever so vital here.

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.

Not-so-dear god, how absolutely atrocious.

Those parents should be locked up for extreme child abuse.

Blablahb:
...
It's the same as lying to someone that he's a brilliant fighter, could take on anyone while they're not even a good amateur, and then make them fight someone for money in which they get seriously hurt. In such a case the one who tricked the other into undergoing it has committed a criminal offense by conciously exposing them to serious harm under false pretenses.
...

Not really sure that'd be a crime when concerning an adult of legal age and mental maturity who "wants to fight". Particularly not since these people actually believe that he's "a brilliant fighter"(i.e. can be "cured"), and hence lack the criminal intent necessary for a conviction, even if the law objectively covered a situation like that (which I rather doubt it does in the first place).

What adults of legal age and mental maturity do to themselves is nobody's business but their own. If they want to gamble on some crackpot religious theory on how to "cure" their homosexuality, that's entirely up to them. And since they're obviously the kind of filth that view homosexuality as a sin - and hence condemn other homosexuals - there's no reason to pity them anyway.

Wow. So much discussion value here, it is unbelievable!

OT: Pretty certain that counts as either child abuse or torture (probably both). They should be arrested and jailed, and the children that are still in the house should be put into foster care. Actually, not sure why that hasn't happened yet, since he has come out and talked about it with people. Shouldn't the police in that area do something? Anyway, pretty horrible stuff.

Thats fucking horrible, and those parents should be locked up and their other children taken from them. I have a brother who is gay, and if anyone ever did this sort of thing to him, there would be hell to pay. Unfortunately, I don't think that anything will happen to them because he doesn't really have proof.

Can't you just make it so homosexuals are accepted in your country? This isn't the Dark Ages, you know, civilization is already catching up to your bronze age myths here in northern Europe.

I can get so very worked up about this and other gay issues, they are people for pete's sake. But all over the world people are taking away their freedom, their happiness and their identity. This is because the world is a crappy place, but I realy, REALY expected better from the US of A. Sometimes it's like a large portion of that country has more in common with Iran then with the lot you left behind in Europe.

Rastelin:
Steven Weinberg words are ever so vital here.

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.

Or war. Or love. Or jealousy. Or politics. Or loss. Or vengeance. Or greed. Or poverty. Or peer pressure. Or etc.

But, you know, your answer is good too. ;)

BreakfastMan:
Or war. Or love. Or jealousy. Or politics. Or loss. Or vengeance. Or greed. Or poverty. Or peer pressure. Or etc.
But, you know, your answer is good too. ;)

In reality however, wars that don't involve religion are fairly limited and always involve less brutality than religious wars.

Why? Same as the cause of the video this topic opened: It's completely irrational to hate someone for their sexual orientation. The only way such intense hatred can be created is by using religion. After all, if you've got divine justification, what could you possibly do wrong, no matter how extreme your actions?

I've literally heard preachers say things like "It's true this condemning is bad, and you should not abandon your friends generally speaking, but here, God's will demands it, so it is okay. All you are doing is saving your place in heaven."

BreakfastMan:

Or war. Or love. Or jealousy. Or politics. Or loss. Or vengeance. Or greed. Or poverty. Or peer pressure. Or etc.

But, you know, your answer is good too. ;)

They where torturing their own child because of their irrational religious beliefs. Need I say more?
Torture is evil no matter how you slice it. But religion can make it good in the heads of the ones that execute it.

Boris Goodenough:
To be fair there are also atheists who think "the ghey" can be cured.

But they're few and far between. There are certainly no organisations full of them designed entirely to "curing" homosexuality.

Rastelin:
They where torturing their own child because of their irrational religious beliefs. Need I say more?
Torture is evil no matter how you slice it. But religion can make it good in the heads of the ones that execute it.

Admittedly, so can other ideologies. Think of torture, I mean, enhanced interrogation techniques that people used to be executed for doing... erm, forget that second part. Justified with nationalism and tribalism, basically.

That said, I'm not going to disagree with you. Religion can certainly manifest as an ideology well-suited to this kind of thing, especially as it can be very big on in- versus out-groups. It's not the only one out there, but that doesn't really make it better.

Many motivations that BreakfastMan mentioned are valid examples, however many of them affect people on an individual level. One person may decide to torture because of jealousy. One person may torture for vengeance. But only some of them, such as religious and political ideologies, are really adept at bringing this kind of behaviour onto a larger scale, a group scale, a community scale.

Zef Otter:
Isn't religion great?

Yeah, "religion" did that. <roll>

Fawcks:
Cut all government funding / tax breaks to any institution that performs or endorses these "Gay-Wellness" programs, please.

Agreed. And anyone who subjects a minor to it should be prosecuted for child abuse. As wrong-headed as I think conversion therapy is if an adult wants to undergo it that's their business. But to put a child through it is barbaric.

Blablahb:
In reality however, wars that don't involve religion are fairly limited and always involve less brutality than religious wars.

The 1.5-2 million people who died in the Battle of Stalingrad and the ~10 million soldiers who died in World War I would like to have a word with you about these ideas you pulled out of some bodily orifice.

Blablahb:

BreakfastMan:
Or war. Or love. Or jealousy. Or politics. Or loss. Or vengeance. Or greed. Or poverty. Or peer pressure. Or etc.
But, you know, your answer is good too. ;)

In reality however, wars that don't involve religion are fairly limited and always involve less brutality than religious wars.

You mean like in WWI where they pumped out gas that ate out your lungs?

Or maybe Vietnam where they dropped bombs that turned innocent humans into flaming messes that screamed as they burned to death?

Oh I know, you must be talking about Rwandan when Hutus and Tustsis went to war and raped and chopped up civilians over tribal differences and past historic conflict.

Rastelin:

BreakfastMan:

Or war. Or love. Or jealousy. Or politics. Or loss. Or vengeance. Or greed. Or poverty. Or peer pressure. Or etc.

But, you know, your answer is good too. ;)

They where torturing their own child because of their irrational religious beliefs. Need I say more?
Torture is evil no matter how you slice it. But religion can make it good in the heads of the ones that execute it.

I don't believe what they were doing works, but aversion thearaphy is still in use by real doctors and is an accepted practice. If a doctor can do that to you to help with smoking, you can't automatically say this is torture and yet using it for that medical purpose is not. And don't even consider what the currently accepted practice of electroshock therapy does to its patients.

Kendarik:
And don't even consider what the currently accepted practice of electroshock therapy does to its patients.

You do realize that electroshock therapy involves anesthesia, right?

I always can't help but wonder whose job it is in these places to go scouring for gay porn to use, and how they decide which pictures should be used.

ReservoirAngel:
But they're few and far between. There are certainly no organisations full of them designed entirely to "curing" homosexuality.

Scientologists are arguably atheistic, because Xenu is an alien, and I think they try and cure the gay.

Kendarik:
I don't believe what they were doing works, but aversion thearaphy is still in use by real doctors and is an accepted practice.

That may be true, but smoking isn't a sexual orientation. Training someone through pain not to choose to engage in a destructive habit is an entirely different issue from training someone through pain not to have thoughts and desires that are deeply-rooted in their psychology without their choice and may very likely have at least part of their origins in the person's biology.

Dags90:

ReservoirAngel:
But they're few and far between. There are certainly no organisations full of them designed entirely to "curing" homosexuality.

Scientologists are arguably atheistic, because Xenu is an alien, and I think they try and cure the gay.

On the list of Scientology's problems, approval and practise of conversion therapy is pretty low. It's somewhere below "stalking and blackmailing people who want to leave", "demanding money for enlightenment" and "generally being nuttier than squirrel shit spread on a Snickers bar."

I can actually forgive them for it in fact. When you believe that an alien warlord created all life on Earth, you kind of get a free pass for believing bullshit and being a raving lunatic. It's when you claim to follow a Deity that apparently preaches love and kindness that I have to call you out on your antagonistic, bigoted, hate-spewing nonsense.

Dags90:
Scientologists are arguably atheistic, because Xenu is an alien, and I think they try and cure the gay.

That's not correct. It being a religion and them being atheists are two mutually exclusive things.

For one thing scientology thinks people are immortal spirits, among other metaphysical nonsense. Another religious trait of scientology is that they attack science, and extort their members money 'for the good cause'.

People like this are the reason that when I have finished training to be a counselor (in about four years) I will work with gay clients that are having trouble with their sexuality.

Blablahb:
That's not correct. It being a religion and them being atheists are two mutually exclusive things.

For one thing scientology thinks people are immortal spirits, among other metaphysical nonsense. Another religious trait of scientology is that they attack science, and extort their members money 'for the good cause'.

Atheism and religion are not mutually exclusive by most accepted definitions of these terms. Buddhism is an atheist religion, there are atheistic Hindu sects, and atheist Jains. Atheism and believing in the supernatural are not mutually exclusive.

Kendarik:
And don't even consider what the currently accepted practice of electroshock therapy does to its patients.

Let me guess; you know damn all about ElectroConvulsive Therapy (ECT)?

Well then, stay quiet about it. Since you clearly don't understand it, you really shouldn't comment on it at all.

Skeleon:

Kendarik:
And don't even consider what the currently accepted practice of electroshock therapy does to its patients.

You do realize that electroshock therapy involves anesthesia, right?

You do realize that aversion therapy does not right?

And that there are serious negative consequences electroshock even with the anesthesia?

Katatori-kun:

Kendarik:
I don't believe what they were doing works, but aversion thearaphy is still in use by real doctors and is an accepted practice.

That may be true, but smoking isn't a sexual orientation. Training someone through pain not to choose to engage in a destructive habit is an entirely different issue from training someone through pain not to have thoughts and desires that are deeply-rooted in their psychology without their choice and may very likely have at least part of their origins in the person's biology.

The last part I have bolded is not a fact, its an opinion. While I agree with that opinion, not all doctors do.

Once you take that out, the rest of the situation is a parallel.

Elcarsh:

Kendarik:
And don't even consider what the currently accepted practice of electroshock therapy does to its patients.

Let me guess; you know damn all about ElectroConvulsive Therapy (ECT)?

Well then, stay quiet about it. Since you clearly don't understand it, you really shouldn't comment on it at all.

You guess wrong, my uncle is undergoing treatments.

So then why don't you stay quite since you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

It's pretty sad that things like this are still happening in the United States of America in the 21st century.

Kendarik:

Katatori-kun:

Kendarik:
I don't believe what they were doing works, but aversion thearaphy is still in use by real doctors and is an accepted practice.

That may be true, but smoking isn't a sexual orientation. Training someone through pain not to choose to engage in a destructive habit is an entirely different issue from training someone through pain not to have thoughts and desires that are deeply-rooted in their psychology without their choice and may very likely have at least part of their origins in the person's biology.

The last part I have bolded is not a fact, its an opinion. While I agree with that opinion, not all doctors do.

Once you take that out, the rest of the situation is a parallel.

No. It's not an opinion. It's a modalized statement that already acknowledges the possibility it might not be true through the use of the modal "may". Just because something may not be true does not mean it is an opinion.

But in any case, the situations are still not parallel. You can choose not to smoke a cigarette. A gay person cannot choose not to be gay. It is impossible. So gay conversion therapy is not remotely comparable to aversion therapy. It's abuse, plain and simple, just like subjecting someone without their consent to any medical procedure that is incapable of producing a useful result would be.

Edited to add: I would very much like to see people who have as minors been subjected to this kind of torture sue their torturers for malpractice.

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