Respect Military Men? If so you might be doing more harm than good.

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I've probably posted about this before, but I like to reiterate it from time to time. Thanking, showering in praise, or automatically anyone wearing a U.S. military uniform is a terrible thing to do.

The U.S. has a love affair with the military. If you're a war vet, you can do no wrong according to some people. Soldiers get preferred in job interviews, get discounts everywhere, get called heroes, and it seems like everyone wants to shake their hand. Before any word is said about what the soldier did, he's already being called a hero.

I don't respect military men any more than any other career. In fact I'm sad to say that I probably look at them with hesitance and skepticism more than anything else. I see a guy wearing a Marine or Navy Seals uniform, I don't think hero, I think arrogant and probably heartless.

Don't jump on my back. Arrogant and heartless is exactly what some military officials will say guys like elite Navy Seals are and should be. Talk to any Navy Seal out there and I guarantee there will be a tone of superiority in his voice.

While I think this is a bit ridiculous and the military needs to focus on being human instead of creating numb killing machines, you may disagree.

With that being said...what do you think about the following links?

U.S. soldiers taunt Iraqi children with water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9yRzoOB1C4

U.S. soldiers abuse children.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQKWqNX6xKc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKKiVxYC-8Y&feature=related

Soldier throws puppy off a mountain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdyN2_GJmP8

...and the newest one I've just seen.

Soldiers beating a ram with a baseball bat for fun.
http://video.haberturk.com/haber/video/amerikan-askerleri-kocu-kafasina-vura-vura-oldurdu/55571

Now I'm sure you'll say that there are bad eggs everywhere and that's true. Not every soldier is like this, that's also true. I've met plenty decent military men, but then again I've probably met just as many who don't deserve to even live in this country.

The problem is that a hell of a lot of this stuff is condoned or even perpetrated by officers and leaders within the military. They at the very least know about what's going on and they don't stop it. Better yet, a lot of the men in the above videos were never reprimanded. Some even received praise for their actions.

Stuff like this is always coming out, but in two days, it's gone and forgotten about. No public outcry, no call for justice, nothing. Yet some civilian women in Bosnia throws puppies into a river and a worldwide manhunt involving internet groups occurs and finds the women in a few days where she is then arrested.....double standard. Hell fucking yes.

As far as I'm concerned. The most patriotic thing you can do is treat the military with skepticism. Make them think twice about what they're doing. I can see that if there wasn't such a pro military culture that that Ram would not have been tortured. Those kids might not have been abused.

Talk to a soldier. Don't kiss his ass. The chances of him joining for any reason other than personal gain is slim. Very few people join to actually defend us.

Skepticism and objectivism...that's all I'm asking. It's the only way we'll stop seeing cruel acts perpetrated by the men wearing our flag.

There are bad apples in any group but you have to remember one thing, these men and women in uniform are volunteering to put their own life on the line for others, that is why they at least deserve the same reverence that you should show to people like cops and firefighters.

Absolutely soldiers can do wrong, everyone can, thats no reason not to show the proper amount of reverence and give a soldier some benefit of the doubt unless there is solid evidence of wrong doing.

The Marines and special forces get a bad rap and have an unfair stereotype of being nothing but a bunch of gung-ho muscle heads. They are the elite but you don't get to be elite without at least a good head on your shoulders. The marines in particular have a knack for being resourceful because they have to do what they can with whatever funds the Navy sends their way.

Until they change shit like this, I seriously don't understand the US's fetish for the uniform.

Hmmm, it might seem strange coming from me, but I'm actually a real fan of the military.

I understand what you're saying, and I know some of the behavior is less than... acceptable? But even as an Australian without a fetish for murder and guns (joking, OR AM I?) I can't help but respect people in uniform.

Whether that be a Soldier, police officer, fireman, or any job where people risk their lives.

Like you've said, some of them do shit things, and it's definitely important that they're called out and punished for doing shit things because otherwise they might continue to get away with said shit.

But overall, I like the military.

Amnestic:
Until they change shit like this, I seriously don't understand the US's fetish for the uniform.

What else are women with longer hair going to do with it (I assume you are going on about the hair bun)?

Seriously though sexual assault and rape is a problem in any military that includes both genders (seriously those Israeli women soldiers...) and in a military as large as Americas it is going to happen. That being said all measures to prevent it should be taken within reason. I know the Navy for example is currently debating whether or not putting women on submarines with men is a good idea given the narrow corridors and cramped living conditions.

Seekster:
The Marines and special forces get a bad rap and have an unfair stereotype of being nothing but a bunch of gung-ho muscle heads.

That's true. They're also womanizers and drunks, and that sometimes gets overlooked.

Before anyone jumps on me for saying that, that's what one of the women in uniform at USAF recruitment told me about the marines when I was considering joining the military in some way long ago before I instead went to college. Actually, I think it was a (much) more insulting term than 'womanizer' that she used... though for the life of me I can't remember exactly what it was.

Seanchaidh:

Seekster:
The Marines and special forces get a bad rap and have an unfair stereotype of being nothing but a bunch of gung-ho muscle heads.

That's true. They're also womanizers and drunks, and that sometimes gets overlooked.

Before anyone jumps on me for saying that, that's what one of the women in uniform at USAF recruitment told me about the marines when I was considering joining the military in some way long ago before I instead went to college. Actually, I think it was a (much) more insulting term than 'womanizer' that she used... though for the life of me I can't remember exactly what it was.

Really? You are calling the entire military or even just the Marines a bunch of "womanizers and drunks?" The Vandals were womanizers and drunks, our military ain't the vandals. If you are drunk on the job or caught womanizing you get court martialed as you should.

It is kind of funny that an Air Force recruiter said that about the marines given that the armed forces DO compete for recruits. Still the Marine's unfair rap is not just something spread among civilians, I know that the branches of the armed forces have choice words for each other (most are tongue-in-cheek but not all). The Marines in particular get a lot of flak due to their reputation.

Seanchaidh look at who you were talking to. I mean come on you don't talk to a chairforce recruiter about the marine corp and expect to get a glowing review of them.

I respect them for being willing to put their lives on the line to fight for their country.

For all those stories that you showed there are tons of stories of heroism and soldiers saving each others lives and the lives of civilians. I'll give a soldier my respect unless he proves he doesn't deserve it.

Being in the military definitely does not earn my automatic respect. I respect individual people based on whether or not the deserve it, and simply enlisting is not a noble act in and of itself, especially when, as TC described, many soldiers are complete scumbags. And guess what, many non-soldiers are complete scumbags too.

Simply being a soldier doesn't tell me anything about what kind of person someone is.

sharks9:
I respect them for being willing to put their lives on the line to fight for their country.

For all those stories that you showed there are tons of stories of heroism and soldiers saving each others lives and the lives of civilians. I'll give a soldier my respect unless he proves he doesn't deserve it.

Quite, good sir.

Military men and women are the reason I can enjoy my freedom. Anyone who risked their life on a daily basis is, to me, a hero. They get my respect by default, unless they prove they don't deserve it.

EDIT: I concede this debate. No need to quote me.

Zekksta:
Whether that be a Soldier, police officer, fireman, or any job where people risk their lives.

I see this argument come up a lot, and it's starting to get on my nerves.

A police officer is a public servant who's duty it is to enforce the law and protect the citizens of the state.

A firefighter is a public servant who's duty it is to save lives and property from the hazards of fire.

A soldier is a job who's duty it is to enforce the political policies for their respective governments against those that oppose them.

And before you get on me about what I'm sure you want to say...

An aid worker is a volunteer position that brings humanitarian support to those who need it anywhere around the world.

Anytime soldiers are praised for their humanitarian deeds; they aren't being soldiers anymore.

A "volunteer" doesn't get paid for what they do.

I have zero respect for soldiers. I have zero respect for hypocrits that think they can support soldiers without supporting military action; as if you like bullets but hate guns.

Nebraskaslim:
Seanchaidh look at who you were talking to. I mean come on you don't talk to a chairforce recruiter about the marine corp and expect to get a glowing review of them.

I am not normally a grammar nazi but I couldnt let this one go, its too funny.

Chairforce? Best visual image ever (or at least so far this week).

DevilWithaHalo:

Zekksta:
Whether that be a Soldier, police officer, fireman, or any job where people risk their lives.

I see this argument come up a lot, and it's starting to get on my nerves.

A police officer is a public servant who's duty it is to enforce the law and protect the citizens of the state.

A firefighter is a public servant who's duty it is to save lives and property from the hazards of fire.

A soldier is a job who's duty it is to enforce the political policies for their respective governments against those that oppose them.

And before you get on me about what I'm sure you want to say...

An aid worker is a volunteer position that brings humanitarian support to those who need it anywhere around the world.

Anytime soldiers are praised for their humanitarian deeds; they aren't being soldiers anymore.

A "volunteer" doesn't get paid for what they do.

I have zero respect for soldiers. I have zero respect for hypocrits that think they can support soldiers without supporting military action; as if you like bullets but hate guns.

Public servant or not they are still people who put their live's on the line.

With all due respect, I can't respect someone who has zero respect for a soldier.

Seekster:

Nebraskaslim:
Seanchaidh look at who you were talking to. I mean come on you don't talk to a chairforce recruiter about the marine corp and expect to get a glowing review of them.

I am not normally a grammar nazi but I couldnt let this one go, its too funny.

Chairforce? Best visual image ever (or at least so far this week).

DevilWithaHalo:

Zekksta:
Whether that be a Soldier, police officer, fireman, or any job where people risk their lives.

I see this argument come up a lot, and it's starting to get on my nerves.

A police officer is a public servant who's duty it is to enforce the law and protect the citizens of the state.

A firefighter is a public servant who's duty it is to save lives and property from the hazards of fire.

A soldier is a job who's duty it is to enforce the political policies for their respective governments against those that oppose them.

And before you get on me about what I'm sure you want to say...

An aid worker is a volunteer position that brings humanitarian support to those who need it anywhere around the world.

Anytime soldiers are praised for their humanitarian deeds; they aren't being soldiers anymore.

A "volunteer" doesn't get paid for what they do.

I have zero respect for soldiers. I have zero respect for hypocrits that think they can support soldiers without supporting military action; as if you like bullets but hate guns.

Public servant or not they are still people who put their live's on the line.

With all due respect, I can't respect someone who has zero respect for a soldier.

And I can respect that.

Sorry, I just had to.

OT: I'm not demanding everyone share my standard for giving respect. It's rather complicated and convoluted. But to say that the actions of a few damn a group? No. I cannot accept that.

EDIT: I concede this debate. No need to quote me.

sharks9:

I'll give a soldier my respect unless he proves he doesn't deserve it.

Why not wait until they prove they do deserve it? People join the military for all sorts of reasons, I would wager few are doing it to "lay their lives down for their country".

Seekster:

Amnestic:
Until they change shit like this, I seriously don't understand the US's fetish for the uniform.

What else are women with longer hair going to do with it (I assume you are going on about the hair bun)?

Seriously though sexual assault and rape is a problem in any military that includes both genders (seriously those Israeli women soldiers...) and in a military as large as Americas it is going to happen.

That doesn't explain the rape rate being twice that of civilian populations. It doesn't explain "only 8% of cases that are investigated end in prosecution, compared with 40% for civilians arrested for sex crimes. Astonishingly, about 80% of those convicted are honorably discharged nonetheless."

80%.

Honorable discharge.

For a rape conviction.

:|

Seekster:

Public servant or not they are still people who put their live's on the line.

With all due respect, I can't respect someone who has zero respect for a soldier.

I see what you did there.

I, on the other hand, will not respect anyone until they're proven they deserve it. And no, just signing up with the army won't win my respect. I don't respect people for the profession they took, I respect them for what they are as a person.

So yes, if I'm a horrible, horrible person because I don't give a rat's ass about a uniform, then I'm a horrible, horrible person. And damn proud of it.

Amnestic:

Why not wait until they prove they do deserve it? People join the military for all sorts of reasons, I would wager few are doing it to "lay their lives down for their country".

Exactly. There are plenty of those who only sign up because they think they're gonna get more chicks if they wear a uniform.

DevilWithaHalo:

Zekksta:
Whether that be a Soldier, police officer, fireman, or any job where people risk their lives.

I see this argument come up a lot, and it's starting to get on my nerves.

A police officer is a public servant who's duty it is to enforce the law and protect the citizens of the state.

A firefighter is a public servant who's duty it is to save lives and property from the hazards of fire.

A soldier is a job who's duty it is to enforce the political policies for their respective governments against those that oppose them.

And before you get on me about what I'm sure you want to say...

An aid worker is a volunteer position that brings humanitarian support to those who need it anywhere around the world.

Anytime soldiers are praised for their humanitarian deeds; they aren't being soldiers anymore.

A "volunteer" doesn't get paid for what they do.

I have zero respect for soldiers. I have zero respect for hypocrits that think they can support soldiers without supporting military action; as if you like bullets but hate guns.

I'm sure you had a point in there but I know I for one certainly missed it.

I'm not sure if you're telling me I shouldn't respect them because they get a paycheck for doing it, or something else entirely.

Some clarification on whatever you're talking about would be nice.

EDIT: Oh, are you saying comparing soldiers to police/firefighters is apples and oranges? Well maybe it is. But you know, I don't agree that if you support the military, somehow you're a hypocrite for not supporting some of the actions the military takes. That sounds like awfully bad logic to me.

Vegosiux:

Seekster:

Public servant or not they are still people who put their live's on the line.

With all due respect, I can't respect someone who has zero respect for a soldier.

I see what you did there.

I, on the other hand, will not respect anyone until they're proven they deserve it. And no, just signing up with the army won't win my respect. I don't respect people for the profession they took, I respect them for what they are as a person.

So yes, if I'm a horrible, horrible person because I don't give a rat's ass about a uniform, then I'm a horrible, horrible person. And damn proud of it.

Amnestic:

Why not wait until they prove they do deserve it? People join the military for all sorts of reasons, I would wager few are doing it to "lay their lives down for their country".

Exactly. There are plenty of those who only sign up because they think they're gonna get more chicks if they wear a uniform.

So you don't respect doctors or police officers or anyone in those kinds of positions? Not even a little deference for the profession? If so then you and I just have an irreconcilable difference in how we view the world.

Amnestic:

sharks9:

I'll give a soldier my respect unless he proves he doesn't deserve it.

Why not wait until they prove they do deserve it? People join the military for all sorts of reasons, I would wager few are doing it to "lay their lives down for their country".

Seekster:

Amnestic:
Until they change shit like this, I seriously don't understand the US's fetish for the uniform.

What else are women with longer hair going to do with it (I assume you are going on about the hair bun)?

Seriously though sexual assault and rape is a problem in any military that includes both genders (seriously those Israeli women soldiers...) and in a military as large as Americas it is going to happen.

That doesn't explain the rape rate being twice that of civilian populations. It doesn't explain "only 8% of cases that are investigated end in prosecution, compared with 40% for civilians arrested for sex crimes. Astonishingly, about 80% of those convicted are honorably discharged nonetheless."

80%.

Honorable discharge.

For a rape conviction.

:|

I would need to look at the statistics more before I say anything about that, something just seems off.

Whatever the actual statistics, yes its higher than it is in the civilian population (mostly because you are dealing with young men and women usually between 20 and 30 which is the time when most people are at their peak of sexual activity as opposed to the general population which has a much much wider age range), but I get the feeling you are misrepresenting something or whatever source you were using is misrepresenting something.

Edit: Now I will say that whatever the numbers are they are still unacceptable and rape is a serious problem in the US military, it is also a recognized problem and steps are being taken to address it.

Seekster:

So you don't respect doctors or police officers or anyone in those kinds of positions? Not even a little deference for the profession? If so then you and I just have an irreconcilable difference in how we view the world.

No more respect or deference than I have for plumbers, garbage men and electricians. I don't think I'm the one with irreconcilable differences.

I'd like to know where the op gets the idea that we vet's can do no wrong in the public eye, or where he gets the idea that we get great discounts everywhere we go. I'm honestly surprised when I get a discount somewhere that covers tax. The only place I can think of off the top of my head I get a discount is at some fast food places and even then it barely covers tax. I've never been called a hero and I hate shaking people's hands.

I would also like to see proof that the soldiers in the videos were never reprimanded or recieved praise for their actions. (I hate calling for prrof on stuff but that seems like a statement pulled out of someone's ass)

Sorry about the rant

Vegosiux:

Seekster:

So you don't respect doctors or police officers or anyone in those kinds of positions? Not even a little deference for the profession? If so then you and I just have an irreconcilable difference in how we view the world.

No more respect or deference than I have for plumbers, garbage men and electricians. I don't think I'm the one with irreconcilable differences.

You have to be one with irreconcilable differences, it doesnt make sense if only one person has differences. Different means that more than one thing is different.

So you trust you trust the guy who puts you to sleep and does surgery on you the same you trust the man who fixes your toilet? Interesting, I probably can't even begin to understand the reasoning behind that but I am still curious as to why you feel that way.

Seekster:

You have to be one with irreconcilable differences, it doesnt make sense if only one person has differences. Different means that more than one thing is different.

Of course you know for a fact that I'm the only one who feels that way, because any normal person would feel the way you do therefore I'm the odd one here, hm?

So you trust you trust the guy who puts you to sleep and does surgery on you the same you trust the man who fixes your toilet? Interesting, I probably can't even begin to understand the reasoning behind that but I am still curious as to why you feel that way.

For one, the guy who puts me to sleep is not the guy who does surgery on me. Second, interesting how you quickly switched from "respect and deference" to "trust". I'm pretty sure you'll find a way to twist my words again, but, are you basically asking me if I trust a toaster to make me toast the same as I trust a washing machine to keep my laundry clean? Why yes. Yes, I do, that's what they're for.

The severity of potential consequences for myself if they do a sloppy job has nothing to do with trust, respect or deference.

Also; I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions.

I'll just quote myself from another thread.

Comando96:

Warforger:

Comando96:
You can't accuse them of being unpatriotic or anti-American... they have some form of magical immunity under societies current rules :P

There was a thread on here called "shut up I'm a soldier" paste that into the search bar.

That's what bothers me, Oswalt the guy who shot Kennedy was a top army sniper, there was a veteran who received a medal of honor for his tour in Somalia during the US intervention there who came back home who raped and killed a bunch of prostitutes. Soldiers are brave for their fights (well if they were brave, some aren't) but this does not improve their dark side or their intelligence. Especially considering that there have been trouble when gang members join the army and bring their gang rivalries into the army.

Just to add I live in Herefordshire, Home of the SAS.
http://www.herefordtimes.com/news/9372745.Hereford_SAS_soldier_guilty_of_child_abuse_charges/

^18th of November this year^

My dad was in the SAS, he is now a 52 year old alcoholic factory worker who's mental and verbal abuse almost resulted in my suicide.

However the public perception of someone who was a soldier... more than often it raises their perceptions of the person.

Should it? No.

The Army produces no middle ground. Being in the Army will either have Positive effects on a persons characteristics and personality, with the exception of emotional hangovers. Or it will have had a bad impact on a persons personality and introduced negative characteristics to them.

Being in the army should be taken into strong consideration when talking to an individual as their either going to be good... or bad... for the UK at least I'd say is about 35% Bad, 65% good. Of course some are worse than others, however bad my dad his he isn't a rapist or a "murderer". He's killed people but All murders go punished except when committed in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets - Voltaire

I know this as I have insider knowledge but people nowadays don't need any information to form an opinion. Sad really that Free Speech has gone to our heads.

Now... with that in mind don't you dare have the mindset you should not respect a soldier... DON'T YOU DARE. These men and women have been through hell often enough so you should respect them for that.

However, you do not extend this respect to anything else about them.
Soldiers opinions on the economy... be skeptical, may be worthless.
Soldiers opinions on pretty much anything apart from being a soldier... be skeptical, likely worthless as would be the average Joe's opinion.

Also soldiers getting preferential treatment with Jobs... often thats just bloody common sense. It all depends on the job.

Security Guard...... recruit the SOLDIER!!!
Police...... recruit the SOLDIER!!!
Banker...... recruit the guy with a degree in Economics >.>

Well really, any job where you have a chain of command, you recruit those who have been following a chain of command for a good part of their lives. Soldiers have it embedded into their minds with their basic training. Therefore if you have a job that requires little free thought and mainly you can program the human mind for the task.

Zekksta:
I'm sure you had a point in there but I know I for one certainly missed it.

When I ramble I sometimes forget to make things obvious. My bad.

Zekksta:
I'm not sure if you're telling me I shouldn't respect them because they get a paycheck for doing it, or something else entirely.

I'm saying don't do it for the wrong reasons. If you want to respect them, that's fine. But don't tell me their volunteers because that's not what a volunteer is. You might as well call everyone volunteers for specifically getting a job.

Putting your life on the line to save someone from a burning biulding is one thing. Putting yourself at mortal risk because someone is shooting at you because they are opposed to your political idealogies is quite another. Cops do it because there are people taking advantage of others in *their* society.

This isn't WW2 anymore. Our military hasn't defended our country since then. We haven't fought for peace and justice since then (the few times we did, we fucked it up). We've conviniently only fought countries with strategic advantages; or if you prefer the non-conspiracy-theory, it's been pretty arbitrary where we place our soldiers.

Zekksta:
EDIT: Oh, are you saying comparing soldiers to police/firefighters is apples and oranges? Well maybe it is.

You could look at it that way. In the same vien you could compare an architect to an arsonist.

Zekksta:
But you know, I don't agree that if you support the military, somehow you're a hypocrite for not supporting some of the actions the military takes. That sounds like awfully bad logic to me.

One directly supports the other, how can you not see the logic in that? You don't support war, but you support the military. You don't support the military, but you support the soldier. I don't get it. I'm going back to my analogy, you respect the bullet, but you disagree with the function behind the gun. That is bad logic to me.

Comando96:

Now... with that in mind don't you dare have the mindset you should not respect a soldier... DON'T YOU DARE. These men and women have been through hell often enough so you should respect them for that.

I sense a false dichotomy. You don't have "should respect soldiers" versus "should not respect soldiers" here.

The mindset is not "You should not respect soldiers." The mindset is "I do not respect someone simply because they happen to be a solider." or "Being a soldier should not mean automatic respect."

So, I, as opposing the notion that "soldiers should be respected because they're soldiers", do not retort with "Fuck soldiers, they shouldn't be respected", I merely say that it's not the fact that they're soldiers where my respect is won.

Oh come on Seekster. You're asking people to respect an entity that has essentially bankrupted an entire country and is responsible for some of the worst civil rights abuses in years. Every single soldier in the US army is guilty of something, be it for abusing their powers or for letting their fellow comrades do so.

AndyFromMonday:
Oh come on Seekster. You're asking people to respect an entity that has essentially bankrupted an entire country and is responsible for some of the worst civil rights abuses in years.

I am not asking the respect Congress.

Vegosiux:

Seekster:

You have to be one with irreconcilable differences, it doesnt make sense if only one person has differences. Different means that more than one thing is different.

Of course you know for a fact that I'm the only one who feels that way, because any normal person would feel the way you do therefore I'm the odd one here, hm?

So you trust you trust the guy who puts you to sleep and does surgery on you the same you trust the man who fixes your toilet? Interesting, I probably can't even begin to understand the reasoning behind that but I am still curious as to why you feel that way.

For one, the guy who puts me to sleep is not the guy who does surgery on me. Second, interesting how you quickly switched from "respect and deference" to "trust". I'm pretty sure you'll find a way to twist my words again, but, are you basically asking me if I trust a toaster to make me toast the same as I trust a washing machine to keep my laundry clean? Why yes. Yes, I do, that's what they're for.

The severity of potential consequences for myself if they do a sloppy job has nothing to do with trust, respect or deference.

Also; I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions.

No I am just saying that for us to have irreconcilable difference we must both have different views. I never said anything about mainstream views (even though for an American your views certainly arent mainstream but I doubt you care).

If you respect someone you would have some level of trust for them. You seem to see people doing certain jobs in the same way you see tools who are designed to do a job. If you trust a person to do a job and do it right and do it well then you have some level of respect for them.

Sabiancym:
The U.S. has a love affair with the military. If you're a war vet, you can do no wrong according to some people. Soldiers get preferred in job interviews, get discounts everywhere, get called heroes, and it seems like everyone wants to shake their hand. Before any word is said about what the soldier did, he's already being called a hero.

I disagree that war vets, as individuals, can do no wrong. I think that's taking this a step too far. However, I do agree that American culture has gone too far in the other direction by characterizing all soldiers in general as "heroes." People should be given respect according to what they've done, and that includes what they have chosen to do with their lives. Soldiering is at least an honorable profession, in and of itself and to the extent that it represents a willingness to risk life and limb and to endure extreme hardship for the defense of one's country. I don't know that that makes a soldier a "hero" by default, but it does lend soldiers some base level of professional respect. The issue I take with the "hero worship" is that it tends to raise some members of society on a pedestal (soldiers, doctors, fire fighters, cops, etc.) and cast other members of society low, even though those other people are just as crucial (I for one would not want to live in a society without some kind of systematic garbage collection/disposal service).

Sabiancym:
I don't respect military men any more than any other career. In fact I'm sad to say that I probably look at them with hesitance and skepticism more than anything else. I see a guy wearing a Marine or Navy Seals uniform, I don't think hero, I think arrogant and probably heartless.

Here, however, you've gone back the other way. You're not being objective; you're judging people more harshly only because of their chosen profession.

Sabiancym:
Don't jump on my back. Arrogant and heartless is exactly what some military officials will say guys like elite Navy Seals are and should be. Talk to any Navy Seal out there and I guarantee there will be a tone of superiority in his voice.

You guarantee that, do you? I've met very humble Navy SEALS. I'm sure there are arrogant ones out there, and I know there are humble ones out there. Since there are both, I think it's best to wait until I meet a particular SEAL (or any member of the special forces) before I decide that he's arrogant or heartless. Of course, that would comport with the kind of objective analysis that you're arguing for.

Sabiancym:
While I think this is a bit ridiculous and the military needs to focus on being human instead of creating numb killing machines, you may disagree.

I do disagree. The military needs to focus on doing its job, which is accomplishing the missions assigned to it. I don't think they need to be creating numb killing machines out of people, but that's because I suspect that it would be counterproductive to an effective military in the long run. Of course, if the military starts building numb killing machines, then more power to them.

Sabiancym:
With that being said...what do you think about the following links?

*snip*

Now I'm sure you'll say that there are bad eggs everywhere and that's true. Not every soldier is like this, that's also true. I've met plenty decent military men, but then again I've probably met just as many who don't deserve to even live in this country.

The problem is that a hell of a lot of this stuff is condoned or even perpetrated by officers and leaders within the military. They at the very least know about what's going on and they don't stop it. Better yet, a lot of the men in the above videos were never reprimanded. Some even received praise for their actions.

Stuff like this is always coming out, but in two days, it's gone and forgotten about. No public outcry, no call for justice, nothing. Yet some civilian women in Bosnia throws puppies into a river and a worldwide manhunt involving internet groups occurs and finds the women in a few days where she is then arrested.....double standard. Hell fucking yes.

As far as I'm concerned. The most patriotic thing you can do is treat the military with skepticism. Make them think twice about what they're doing. I can see that if there wasn't such a pro military culture that that Ram would not have been tortured. Those kids might not have been abused.

This doesn't happen because soldiers are praised in American society. This was happening back during Vietnam when people spat on soldiers coming home from the war. These soldiers should be held accountable for what they did, in a manner that is fair and just. But acts like these are caused by a number of things, including the extreme psychological stresses that soldiers are put under as well as the military culture that inevitably develops when you have an organization made up predominantly of young males separated from their society (and its attendant guidance) for extended periods of time. The double standard you point out takes these differing circumstances into consideration. Sometimes the double standard may go too far, but a double standard of some kind is justified in this situation. And in any case, cutting back on the "hero worship" will not, by itself, solve the problem.

EDIT: Double post >_<

Vegosiux:

Comando96:

Now... with that in mind don't you dare have the mindset you should not respect a soldier... DON'T YOU DARE. These men and women have been through hell often enough so you should respect them for that.

I sense a false dichotomy. You don't have "should respect soldiers" versus "should not respect soldiers" here.

The mindset is not "You should not respect soldiers." The mindset is "I do not respect someone simply because they happen to be a solider." or "Being a soldier should not mean automatic respect."

So, I, as opposing the notion that "soldiers should be respected because they're soldiers", do not retort with "Fuck soldiers, they shouldn't be respected", I merely say that it's not the fact that they're soldiers where my respect is won.

Do you come from a military family?
Do you come from a military family whom one member (ex-military) almost led to your own suicide?

I still respect my father, not for being father at all in any way shape or form... but for the fact he was a soldier and went through hell...

Anyone is a soldier deserves respect for that sole fact.

Overall as an individual that respect can be easily countered but telling me these individuals do not warrant respect for being a soldier...

...

I can't give my truthful response without warranting moderator intervention so I'll just say this:

Suicide... have you been there... sitting waiting for the next train to come where it'll just all end? But then afterwards when by chance something stopped you... you still respected the person who drove you to be sitting next to the rails?

TL:DR
Your ignorant (definition) to what their life is like... or just soulless.

Comando96:

Suicide... have you been there... sitting waiting for the next train to come where it'll just all end? But then afterwards when by chance something stopped you... you still respected the person who drove you to be sitting next to the rails?

Yes. Because that person was me, or rather, I was the only one who could make that decision for myself. Complicated and unpleasant stuff, really.

And as I said, if not respecting the uniform makes me ignorant and soulless, then I'm ignorant and soulless. I've had people fight in wars in my family, yes, but they were all conscripted. Old wars, talking WW1 and 2 here, so they weren't actually "soldiers" by choice, I suppose.

But don't think I'm going to go into a frothing rage and call for mod cavalry to bust your butt. You make too much sense around here otherwise. We're in a disagreement, I can live with that.

DevilWithaHalo:

When I ramble I sometimes forget to make things obvious. My bad.

You should see me in the SOPA threads, I look like a lunatic I'm sure. (Or maybe that's every thread? I should rethink posting sometimes).

DevilWithaHalo:

I'm saying don't do it for the wrong reasons. If you want to respect them, that's fine. But don't tell me their volunteers because that's not what a volunteer is.

Ahh, no, I didn't call them volunteers. I said for doing a job that risks their lives. The word *job* there being important I think.

DevilWithaHalo:
Putting your life on the line to save someone from a burning biulding is one thing. Putting yourself at mortal risk because someone is shooting at you because they are opposed to your political idealogies is quite another. Cops do it because there are people taking advantage of others in *their* society.

Ahhhh, I think I'm seeing where your comparison to the volunteer thing comes in, I wasn't quite sure where you got the idea I thought they were volunteers before but this must be it.

So you're essentially saying, that while even though they get paid for their job, firemen are doing something that is not a direct cause of being a fireman? <-- Phrased terribly, I'll try again.

Take two: Since firemen have no actual relation to the fire that's been caused (hopefully) it's a profession where it's respectful to risk their lives, because being a firemen is irrelevant to what caused the fire to begin with?

While the military sign up to the military, knowing that they are going to go occupy another country and are indirectly, or not so indirectly, causing distress among civilians?

DevilWithaHalo:
This isn't WW2 anymore. Our military hasn't defended our country since then. We haven't fought for peace and justice since then (the few times we did, we fucked it up). We've conviniently only fought countries with strategic advantages; or if you prefer the non-conspiracy-theory, it's been pretty arbitrary where we place our soldiers.

I see.

DevilWithaHalo:
You could look at it that way. In the same vien you could compare an architect to an arsonist.

What a scathing retort. I like it.

DevilWithaHalo:
One directly supports the other, how can you not see the logic in that? You don't support war, but you support the military. You don't support the military, but you support the soldier. I don't get it. I'm going back to my analogy, you respect the bullet, but you disagree with the function behind the gun. That is bad logic to me.

I see the logic, I just think it's oversimplified a bit. You briefly touched on it earlier, but I believe that countries need an army for defense. For this reason, I support the military. I support their actions when they are defending the country. I don't support their actions when they are marching off to ravage and destroy civilians.

I like the way my countries army isn't really a massive powerhouse or anything. The only reason a few of our people went to Iraq to help America, was because shit was hitting the fan, and.. we're allies? At least that's how it was explained to us.

Our army just stays put most of the time and defends the borders.

Since in my own little mind I consider that to be the primary job of the military, I respect the people who sign up to do it.

Though, if the Australian military was suddenly ordered to go bomb Japan because of dubious WMD launch information found scribbled on a bus ticket or whatever, I wouldn't support that action at all, and it would most likely force me to re-evaluate my respect for the people signing up for the job.

I don't think that makes me a hypocrite, but if it does, well, everyone has their flaws.

Yeah maybe, but problems like this aren't exclusive to the military; they're a human problem. And I sure as hell have more respect for the military than I do for the police.

Vegosiux:
And as I said, if not respecting the uniform makes me ignorant and or soulless, then I'm ignorant and or soulless.

Or.
You could be both but I very much doubt that. I'd incline towards the former but I'm not you.

We're in a disagreement, I can live with that.

--------------

Zekksta:
Though, if the Australian military was suddenly ordered to go bomb Japan because of dubious WMD launch information found scribbled on a bus ticket or whatever, I wouldn't support that action at all, and it could/would lead to me disrespecting the military-men who decide to follow such an order.

I don't think that makes me a hypocrite, but if it does, well, everyone has their flaws.

That example is a really really tricky one.

The military is a machine of which the soldiers are gears and pinions.
Soldiers follow their orders, that is their purpose of being.

However... if those orders are of a certain caliber, say, bomb this district where there are a high civilian population. You question those orders. If that person does not then your right to think badly of them.

However if their orders are to take part in a dubious war... they are soldiers... they are the weapon, not the ultimate power giving the orders (who are the Government).

Its a fiddly area in general.

I think you'd need to go down to a further macro level upon which you discriminated but otherwise I certainly wouldn't call you a hypocrite.

AndyfromMonday That is quite the accusatory statement regarding men and women in uniform. I'm not sure if I am more offended by the fact you think the military is responsible for some of the worst civil rights violations or the fact you think that everyone in uniform is guilty of some crime or another.

I can guarantee you both of those are false statements. As for the bankrupting the country that goes to the governement, the military has no control over our budget.

Also to keep things on a lighter note: Do you know why the navy carries marines on their ships? ...Sheep would be too obvious.

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