Kim Jung IL II is dead.

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Gwarr:
can we nuke it yet?(the country)

Why would you want to do that? Your beef was with the now-dead guy, not the people, right?

Ah well, the guy's dead, so I'll let history be the one to judge him instead of wasting my breath on it myself.

As for what this means for the future of N.Korea...Going to take more time than a few hours to be able to see about that. These things take a while. I suspect, however, that Kim Jong Un will try to work on improving relations with China first.

I highly doubt anything relevant will happen until the end of the year, though. Besides, if N.Korea tries anything stupid, Chinese flags will fly over Pyongyang before they can say "Well shit".

@Angie7F: Strictly speaking, really, really not true.

Now things will get interesting on the Korean peninsula.

Gwarr:
can we nuke it yet?(the country)

Yes, fuck those starving men, women and children who have lived their entire lives with a gun to their head. Exterminating innocent people is clearly what we need to do.

Anyway hopefully the dilution of divinity in the public mind will reach the point where it is no longer beyond question that the Dear Great Leader might be wrong. I've heard rumours of unrest for some time and read stories from people who escaped that indicated the decay just kept on getting worse, but with North Korea one can never know.

"Ding dong the bastard's dead, which bastard, that old bastard..."

Ahem, sorry, it's just good to know...

davidmc1158:

2012 Wont Happen:
Goodnight, sweet Prince. And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.

Just curious. Do you mean the sweet, heavenly kind or are you kinda hoping Sephiroth came by for a pick-up?

I just tend to say it whenever important people die. I suppose the sweet heavenly kind though seeing as that was the context of the original quote.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/19/world/asia/north-korea-leader-dead/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

There's video here on CNN, it shows people in North Korea "reacting" to the news of his death. All of the crying is so fake...let's hope things get better from here.

Lilani:

There's video here on CNN, it shows people in North Korea "reacting" to the news of his death. All of the crying is so fake...let's hope things get better from here.

Oh, I think the tears are genuine.

What is "fake", I think, is what they believe to be the reason for them. They are supposedly crying for their "beloved leader", while I'm pretty sure the real reason that they don't even realize themselves is simply "What now? This was all we ever knew, what do we do now?"

But that's just my overly convoluted logic I guess *cough*

Rest in pieces. Hope his son isn't as bad.

Do you really think this fleet will ever be led by someone who isn't named Kim Jong?

Joshing:
Rest in pieces. Hope his son isn't as bad.

Odds are if anything he will start out worse. He has to prove himself to the military or they may just put someone else in his chair.

I want to say "Good, and none too soon". But I don't know how much of a dick his son is going to be so, we'll see.

This could either be very good or very bad. If his successor is a reformer North Korea may be moving toward acceptance in the international field. If he tries to "prove" himself, we may be seeing war in the coming months.

Zach of Fables:
Do you really think this fleet will ever be led by someone who isn't named Kim Jong?

Kim is their surname, the equivalent of "Washington" in George Washington.

2012 Wont Happen:

davidmc1158:

2012 Wont Happen:
Goodnight, sweet Prince. And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.

Just curious. Do you mean the sweet, heavenly kind or are you kinda hoping Sephiroth came by for a pick-up?

I just tend to say it whenever important people die. I suppose the sweet heavenly kind though seeing as that was the context of the original quote.

I don't think he would appreciate that, as 'heavenly' and 'flights of angels' are very Christian notions, as being a elegid communist, Kim Jong Il was certainly not only not christian, he would have opposed, you can't be communist and christian.

In addition, given the nature of his leadership, he'd more likely to end up in hell on the off chance christianity is right, I hear Satan just broke up with Saddam Hussein again and has a thing for 'dick-tators'

Rage19:

2012 Wont Happen:

davidmc1158:

Just curious. Do you mean the sweet, heavenly kind or are you kinda hoping Sephiroth came by for a pick-up?

I just tend to say it whenever important people die. I suppose the sweet heavenly kind though seeing as that was the context of the original quote.

I don't think he would appreciate that, as 'heavenly' and 'flights of angels' are very Christian notions, as being a elegid communist, Kim Jong Il was certainly not only not christian, he would have opposed, you can't be communist and christian.

In addition, given the nature of his leadership, he'd more likely to end up in hell on the off chance christianity is right, I hear Satan just broke up with Saddam Hussein again and has a thing for 'dick-tators'

Yeah, dear Mr. Kim is more of a double rainbow, talking swallow, new star to mark the occasion kind of guy.

Rage19:
I don't think he would appreciate that, as 'heavenly' and 'flights of angels' are very Christian notions, as being a elegid communist, Kim Jong Il was certainly not only not christian, he would have opposed, you can't be communist and christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

I have a question for you: why would you even make such a claim as you did?

Now, if you wanted to remark on his religious views you could have stated that Juche hold that Kim Il-sung created the world. I haven't seen substantiation for it, but that is a claim I hear quite a bit. I haven't looked into it because I care very little about the DPRK or Juche in general.

In addition, given the nature of his leadership, he'd more likely to end up in hell on the off chance christianity is right, I hear Satan just broke up with Saddam Hussein again and has a thing for 'dick-tators'

And Hamlet was a murderer guided by vengeance who died unrepentant, and indeed in a state of mortal sin. He was certainly hell-bound based on the Catholic theology that Shakespeare believed and that was the state religion of Denmark in the era during which Hamlet is set. The quote was still said regarding him.

This is one of those things we can only watch, from all levels.
It's why the world leaders are only offering kind words.
N.Korea is insanely secretive and quiet. We've just got to wait.

We can hope that his son is more pragmatic than his father for the guy was educated abroad.
Either way, it'll be interesting to watch.

This just in, seems like Kim Jung Un wont be the sole dictator like his father was:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-korea-north-exclusivetre7bk0fx-20111220,0,4365734.story

Exclusive: North Korea's military to share power with Kim's heir

BEIJING (Reuters) - North Korea will shift to collective rule from a strongman dictatorship after last week's death of Kim Jong-il, although his untested young son will be at the head of the ruling coterie, a source with close ties to Pyongyang and Beijing said.

The source added that the military, which is trying to develop a nuclear arsenal, has pledged allegiance to the untested Kim Jong-un, who takes over the family dynasty that has ruled North Korea since it was founded after World War Two.

The source declined to be identified but has correctly predicted events in the past, telling Reuters about the North's first nuclear test in 2006 before it took place.

The comments are the first signal that North Korea is following a course that many analysts have anticipated -- it will be governed by a group of people for the first time since it was founded in 1948.

Both Kim Jong-il and his father Kim Il-sung were all-powerful, authoritarian rulers of the isolated state.

The situation in North Korea appeared stable after the military gave its backing to Kim Jong-un, the source said.

"It's very unlikely," the source said when asked about the possibility of a military coup. "The military has pledged allegiance to Kim Jong-un."

North Korea's collective leadership will include Kim Jong-un, his uncle and the military, the source said.

Jang Song-thaek, 65, brother-in-law of Kim Jong-il and the younger Kim's uncle, is seen as the power behind the throne along with his wife Kim Kyong-hui, Kim Jong-il's sister. So too is Ri Yong-ho, the rising star of the North's military and currently its most senior general.

The younger Kim, who is in his late 20s, has his own supporters but is not strong enough to consolidate power, analysts said.

"I know that he's been able to build a group of supporters around himself who are of his generation," said Koh Yu-hwan, president of the Korean Association of North Korean Studies in Seoul.

"So it is not entirely elders in their 70s, plus some like Jang in their 60s, who are backing him. These young backers will be emerging fairly soon."

Koh said the coterie was put in place by Kim Jong-il before he died. "The relative calm seen these few days shows it's been effective. If things were not running smoothly, then we'd have seen a longer period of 'rule by mummy', with Kim Jong-il being faked as still being alive."

He said the younger Kim would accept the set-up, for now. "Considering the tradition of strongarm rule by his father and grandfather, things can't be easy for him," he said.

"REGIME SURVIVAL"

Ralph Cossa, an authority on North Korea and president of the U.S. think tank Pacific Forum CSIS, said it made sense that the ruling group would stick together.

"All have a vested interest in regime survival," he said. "Their own personal safety and survival is inextricably tied to regime survival and Kim Jong-un is the manifestation of this. I think the regime will remain stable, at least in the near-term."

He added in a commentary that the new group may be inclined to reform, but stressed this was far from confirmed.

"Over the long term, there appears to be some hope, primarily emanating from Beijing, that Kim Jong-un will take North Korea down the path of Chinese-style reform, apparently based on the belief that Jang is or will be a 'reformer'."

Well, as surprising as it may come, it makes sense. Jong Il had several sons if I'm correct, and the current heir was only put forward pretty recently, he's by no means trained for life for this kind of thing, and even in North Korea you can't grow loyalty overnight.

He'll be a whelp now for that reason, maybe a whelp especially in a country where having power in itself is a dangerous activity. The fact that said general is an influential general puts him at risk because he's a threat, so he'll seek to maintain his power to safeguard himself.

It's pretty much that the North Korean system encourages powermongering in such a way. As soon as you step on the ladder, you're at risk, and the higher you come, the bigger people you become a potential threat to.


Then again, outside of the communist ruling classes, it will have little to no implications. Much like Seekster's article pointed out, everyone has an interest in the regime itself surviving. They may struggle among themselves, but nobody will change anything about the distribution of power that involves a course change.

Stagnant:
@Angie7F: Strictly speaking, really, really not true.

I know, I know. :)
Its just a stupid theory my professor was trying to prove.
Probably for his own research for all I care.

So, my new concern is that N.Korea is complaining about how Japan did not pay their condolences.
I think the Japanese government should have done what they should have done and paid their condolences. After all, despite all the controversy, N. Korea sent funds to japan after the 3.11 earthquake.
In time of need and grief, I think we should put our squabbles aside...

The current Japanese government is hopeless, not that any other regime was any better.

Sleekit:

drmigit2:
it means Kim Jong Un is going to run the country in the same style as his dad and nothing will be different.

you might be surprised.

children tend to (naturally imo) have an inbuilt drive to differ from their parents.

there is an entirely different history he could write for himself that would (eventually) see the lives of all his people greatly improve and see himself become a major & positively lit figure in Korean history and all he has to do is, basically, say "yes" to Korean reunification.

he would get as much support as they could realistically lend from both the South and the Chinese and at the end of it all would still be likely to enjoy a very comfortable life personally.

what's more this option is almost undoubtedly in his head rattling around already and very probably weighing heavily.

after all how would you feel about your dad and his ideas if he was all "just shut up, and praise the leader" ? :P

So what was the difference between Kim Jong Il and Kim Sung Il?

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