How bad was 9/11 really

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Seekster:
I mean where are you getting that from? Source and page # if applicable please.

Page 2 of this declassified US government secret document.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq43.pdf

I did link it before (well the parent page).

Seekster:
Oh it is on, I concur with BOOM on this one. You don't level an insult like that and get away with it. Go on, explain yourself.

In the words of Boom, shit HAS gotten real. And out of respect for him (though I am not sure why), I will NOT use the words he asked me not to use.

#1: Prepetuating the negative American steryotype held by the rest of the world. When the rest of the world thinks of America, the first thing that comes to mind are years of racial prejedice and ignorance. It is rarely seen in the North and on the West Coast where you see racial or sexual hate crimes. Those are seen a lot more often in the South, and Midwest, and some households in those regions still attempt to fly the Confederate Flag. You also have a tone of illiteracy and just plain incompetence and stupidity, though that mainly comes from the Bush years, and I feel sorry for Texans because they now are compated to the likes of Bush and Perry, even though they are the extremes.

#2: Bush and Perry. Some of the worst leadership and potential leadership to ever come out of this nation. I don't think I need to explain much about why Bush was bad, and Perry is just tripping all over himself.

#3: The Oil lobby: The South and Midwest are home to some of the biggest oil producers and lobbyists in America, with arguably the largest concentration in Texas. It is the oil lobby that prevents progress in the form of renewable energy.

Those are three very valid reasons, none of which contain any of the words Boom asked me not to use.

Spartan448:

Seekster:
Oh it is on, I concur with BOOM on this one. You don't level an insult like that and get away with it. Go on, explain yourself.

In the words of Boom, shit HAS gotten real. And out of respect for him (though I am not sure why), I will NOT use the words he asked me not to use.

#1: Prepetuating the negative American steryotype held by the rest of the world. When the rest of the world thinks of America, the first thing that comes to mind are years of racial prejedice and ignorance. It is rarely seen in the North and on the West Coast where you see racial or sexual hate crimes. Those are seen a lot more often in the South, and Midwest, and some households in those regions still attempt to fly the Confederate Flag. You also have a tone of illiteracy and just plain incompetence and stupidity, though that mainly comes from the Bush years, and I feel sorry for Texans because they now are compated to the likes of Bush and Perry, even though they are the extremes.

#2: Bush and Perry. Some of the worst leadership and potential leadership to ever come out of this nation. I don't think I need to explain much about why Bush was bad, and Perry is just tripping all over himself.

#3: The Oil lobby: The South and Midwest are home to some of the biggest oil producers and lobbyists in America, with arguably the largest concentration in Texas. It is the oil lobby that prevents progress in the form of renewable energy.

Those are three very valid reasons, none of which contain any of the words Boom asked me not to use.

You think those are 3 valid reasons people in the south and midwest? What kind of monster are you?

1. No thats mostly on ignorant people like you who believe those stereotypes. Yes bad stuff happened in the past, emphasis on "in the past". As for the Confederate flag, its a symbol of southern pride, nothing at all wrong with that. Hell i've seen black guys fly it before.

2. Sorry but both of these are your opinion and only the one about Perry is justifiable. I consider Bush a below average President but right now I would argue that he ranks a bit above Obama so for me the implications of you calling him the worst leader in US history basically has amusing implications. Perry is just a politician who likes Texas. Nobody here in Texas likes Rick Perry, we just vote for him.

3. Renewable energy can compete in the marketplace just like every other power source. This thing about the oil lobby is just an excuse for the poor efficiency of things like solar and wind power right now. Let the technology develop until its actually cost effective and then I will be all to happy to buy a solar car or whatever.

Even if all three of those reasons were valid...

Spartan448:

TechNoFear:

Spartan448:
There are not many people who could honestly say that the world would mourn if the Iraquis just up and killed each other.

The same can be said about Americans.

If they are from the Midwest or Deep South, or California, then yes, I concur.

What is wrong with you? Dude seriously, thats one of the most ignorant and hateful things I have read on this forum and I have been here a long time.

In defence of the southern US, and in ignorance of the actual numbers of hate crimes or how they are defined in various jurisdictions, there seems to be a bit of confirmation bias there.

A hate crime in the Deep South, and OMG, them Southerners, must be the result of slavery and confedaracy and whatnot.

Someone plants a bomb full of shrapnel covered in anti-coagulants on a MLK day parade in Washington, and yet nobody accuses the Washingtoners of being hateful racists (also, the word terrorism wasn't used, but that's another issue).

Now, for all I know, there are lots of lynchings and other less newsworthy stuff going on in the south, but...a bomb with anti-coagulant on the shrapnel? Fuck!

Regardless of location, such things are horrific, but geography seems only a big deal when people can have a go at southerners.

Spartan448:
#1: Prepetuating the negative American steryotype held by the rest of the world.

IMO only one person is reinforcing that stereotype in this thread...

PS Thanks for using the version of my post that was there for less than a minute, before I added a qualification.

I suppose you thought that would deflect some of the angst towards me, I appreciate that...

lRookiel:
Yes, mainly because it was a man made disaster, over three thousand people died because of other human beings hatred/stupidity or whatever you think the cause was. I know the death toll was less than earthquakes and hurricanes that killed thousands more, but they were natural disasters and may be perceived as it being noones fault.

Therefore man made disasters like 9/11 really are that bad, because certain individuals were the cause, not like the random occurances of an earthquake..

Now see, I can understand this concept, but what I can't understand is why the very same people who advocate this view of 9/11 will dismiss, or even outright celebrate the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in the wars that America waged as a result of 9/11.

By any rational measure, America's response to 9/11 has been a far more destructive and hateful affair than the original act.

Seekster:

3. Renewable energy can compete in the marketplace just like every other power source. This thing about the oil lobby is just an excuse for the poor efficiency of things like solar and wind power right now. Let the technology develop until its actually cost effective and then I will be all to happy to buy a solar car or whatever.

I have to take issue with this part Seeks; the ONLY reason Oil, Gas and Coal fuels are so much more "efficient" in terms of cost vs energy produces at the moment is because of the MASSIVE subsidies those industries benefit from. If the governments of the world were to remove all taxpayer subsidy of fossil fuels, renewables would be on-par or more efficient than them, and the reason people rail against the oil lobby is because they're the ones out there every day bribing American officials(lets not mince words, in America lobbying is legalised bribery) to keep the subsidies, and vote against any subsidy of renewables.

Expecting a non-subsidised technology with large startup costs to compete against an established industry with near-complete infrastructure, massive existing contracts, and huge government subsidy is unreasonable in the extreme.

There's an ungodly amount of corruption in the US Senate, only surpassed by 3th world countries. About anything they do seems to have eben orchestrated or meddled with by big businesses. I mean, what the fuck? That's not what you'd expect from the "greatest country on earth".

Magichead:

lRookiel:
Yes, mainly because it was a man made disaster, over three thousand people died because of other human beings hatred/stupidity or whatever you think the cause was. I know the death toll was less than earthquakes and hurricanes that killed thousands more, but they were natural disasters and may be perceived as it being noones fault.

Therefore man made disasters like 9/11 really are that bad, because certain individuals were the cause, not like the random occurances of an earthquake..

Now see, I can understand this concept, but what I can't understand is why the very same people who advocate this view of 9/11 will dismiss, or even outright celebrate the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in the wars that America waged as a result of 9/11.

By any rational measure, America's response to 9/11 has been a far more destructive and hateful affair than the original act.

Seekster:

3. Renewable energy can compete in the marketplace just like every other power source. This thing about the oil lobby is just an excuse for the poor efficiency of things like solar and wind power right now. Let the technology develop until its actually cost effective and then I will be all to happy to buy a solar car or whatever.

I have to take issue with this part Seeks; the ONLY reason Oil, Gas and Coal fuels are so much more "efficient" in terms of cost vs energy produces at the moment is because of the MASSIVE subsidies those industries benefit from. If the governments of the world were to remove all taxpayer subsidy of fossil fuels, renewables would be on-par or more efficient than them, and the reason people rail against the oil lobby is because they're the ones out there every day bribing American officials(lets not mince words, in America lobbying is legalised bribery) to keep the subsidies, and vote against any subsidy of renewables.

Expecting a non-subsidised technology with large startup costs to compete against an established industry with near-complete infrastructure, massive existing contracts, and huge government subsidy is unreasonable in the extreme.

Well then get rid of the oil and gas subsidies or give renewable energy subsidies as well. No need to get pissy with the Oil and Gas lobby. If it annoys you that much form your own damn lobby.

You know what is unreasonable? Thinking that the Oil and Gas lobby is a valid reason to call for all the people in the South and Midwest to just kill each other.

Seekster:

You know what is unreasonable? Thinking that the Oil and Gas lobby is a valid reason to call for all the people in the South and Midwest to just kill each other.

Technically not calling for it, just saying that no one would mourn them if they chose to.

There's a difference. Not much, but it is there.

Amnestic:

Seekster:

You know what is unreasonable? Thinking that the Oil and Gas lobby is a valid reason to call for all the people in the South and Midwest to just kill each other.

Technically not calling for it, just saying that no one would mourn them if they chose to.

There's a difference. Not much, but it is there.

Pft, give it a little time and the entire US economy would mourn.

3400 people dead give or take? Very bad. Not the worst day in American history though.

The problems came when we started two wars and began limiting freedoms in the name of security. It has also created a hostile political atmosphere and ruined our relations with the world as the wars continued, and human rights abuses got exposed. Bin Laden kicked us straight in the wallet and we're still feeling it.

Some people were shocked that a terrorist act happened... those people are idiots.

This happened in New York. Many media outlets are based in New York. Of course the tragedy was felt more by them. I think it's going too far though. 9/11 Generation? Are you kidding? How about the Iraqi kids growing up in that fucked up country. There's a generation I feel bad for.

Seekster:
Well then get rid of the oil and gas subsidies or give renewable energy subsidies as well. No need to get pissy with the Oil and Gas lobby. If it annoys you that much form your own damn lobby.

Yes! Brilliant! I'll just hit up the old bank account... oh fuck. So much for a lobby. :(

Guess I'll just keep paying douchebag oil men and foreign dictators. lalalalalalalalalalaaaaa

Enslave_All_Elves:

Seekster:
Well then get rid of the oil and gas subsidies or give renewable energy subsidies as well. No need to get pissy with the Oil and Gas lobby. If it annoys you that much form your own damn lobby.

Yes! Brilliant! I'll just hit up the old bank account... oh fuck. So much for a lobby. :(

Guess I'll just keep paying douchebag oil men and foreign dictators. lalalalalalalalalalaaaaa

Well we could make the situation better by getting oil from Canada but apparently Obama hates that idea.

Enslave_All_Elves:
3400 people dead give or take? Very bad. Not the worst day in American history though.

The problems came when we started two wars and began limiting freedoms in the name of security. It has also created a hostile political atmosphere and ruined our relations with the world as the wars continued, and human rights abuses got exposed. Bin Laden kicked us straight in the wallet and we're still feeling it.

Some people were shocked that a terrorist act happened... those people are idiots.

This happened in New York. Many media outlets are based in New York. Of course the tragedy was felt more by them. I think it's going too far though. 9/11 Generation? Are you kidding? How about the Iraqi kids growing up in that fucked up country. There's a generation I feel bad for.

I think what you pointed out about the major media centers being in NY having an effect is true.
Had the 3.11 earthquake and tsunami hit Tokyo, not the northern region, of course the coverage and emphasis on the incident would have been much much more than now.
(Not factoring in how the location would have effected the number of casualties)

So I guess Bin Ladin put together a pretty damn effective attack...

Spartan448:
In the words of Boom, shit HAS gotten real. And out of respect for him (though I am not sure why), I will NOT use the words he asked me not to use.

Amazing. You still found a way to insult my home, pigeon-hole hundreds of millions of people, AND point out every bullshit argument against the midwest and south, All while not EXPLICATELY saying the words I said not to use, but still implying them anyway, And even thought up some that have been disproven for so long, we here have completely forgotten about them.

Well done sir, you deserve a round of appluse:

Now, dont be shy, take a bow...so I can stick my boot up your ass.

Seek covered the south, so I will cover MY homefront of the midwest:

#1: Rasicm, sexism, unintellegent

Speaking for Kansas here, did you know that we were one of the first states to intergrate after Brown Vs. Board? That we were not only one of the only states to have full suffrage in the 1800's, but that a KANSAS SENATOR PROPOSED THE 19TH AMENDMENT? That even thought the Equal Rights Act didnt become a national amendment, we added it to our state constitioun anyway? Now, I ask you: HOW ARE WE RACIST OR SEXIST?!?!!? As Seek said, any and all racism is IN THE PAST!

As for the being ignorent, That is something that doesnt bother me. You can be ignorent and still function in society fine. Heck, some of the greatest inventors of all time dropped out of college. Knowledge helps, but lack of knowledge isnt a detrement either.

#2: Bush and Perry.

This one is entirely subjective. I never had Perry as a governor, so I cant speak for him. I doubt he is anything like Brownback. As for Bush, I thought that he was average, maybe just slightly below average. But I think he was WAY better than who we have at the helm now.

#3: The Oil lobby (or, squashing renewables)

I am with seek on this one. Most renewables are at the moment too ineffecient. Plus, they are extremely expensive, and most people around here will never get rid of thier pickup trucks. BECAUSE THEY NEED THEM!! Unless you can direct me to a hybrid or renewable powered pickup truck that fits the following criteria:
1) Cheap, around the price of a new truck now
2) Ease of mantainance, A farmer will have to be able to fix it with tools on the farm
3) Reliable, I am talking able to run for 40 years on the same engine, like some of the stuff made in the '50s
4) Heavy haul capable, The average farmer where I live hauls 5 tons (thats 10,000 lbs) of hay in thier trucks.
5) Durability, Again, has to last a long time, and be able to take the punishment of driving on dirt roads every day.

If you can show me a vehicle that fits those criteria, and is hybrid and cheap, I will GLADLY tell all of my farmer Neighbors about it.

I know that there was a new tech that the oil companies are putting alot of money into. It is a device that absorbs greenhouse gasses (namely, CO2) from the atmosphere and through I process I will not attempt to understand, turns it into OIL, thus making oil into a renewable, and causing the burning of oil to make more oil. That sounds win-win to me. However, the scienist says that while the prototype works fine, it will be 10 years before he can build one refinery size.

After playing your hand, you have proven WHY people here hate New York. Congradulations, Jerk.

Seekster:

Pft, give it a little time and the entire US economy would mourn.

Not only that, I could forsee BILLIONS WORLDWIDE starving to death if just the Midwest disappeared. We aint called "The Breadbasket" for nothing.

BOOM headshot65:
After playing your hand, you have proven WHY people here hate New York. Congradulations, Jerk.

Now hold on I know some people from New York who are actually pretty cool. I agree with most of what you said in your post but I wanted to make sure you arent falling into the same trap Spartan fell into (I don't think you are I just want to make sure).

Spartan is unfortunately perpetuating the stereotype of the ignorant, stuck up, big-headed, snobish, northerner who looks down on others. I know this stereotype is overwhelming false just as much as the stereotypes about the south and midwest and basically everywhere else are likewise false. Like all stereotypes they are created by focusing on and highlighting a small minority of the population and applying those characteristics to everyone in a region or group.

Seekster:

Now hold on I know some people from New York who are actually pretty cool. I agree with most of what you said in your post but I wanted to make sure you arent falling into the same trap Spartan fell into (I don't think you are I just want to make sure).

Spartan is unfortunately perpetuating the stereotype of the ignorant, stuck up, big-headed, snobish, northerner who looks down on others. I know this stereotype is overwhelming false just as much as the stereotypes about the south and midwest and basically everywhere else are likewise false. Like all stereotypes they are created by focusing on and highlighting a small minority of the population and applying those characteristics to everyone in a region or group.

Oh no, I am just saying that that sterotype is REALLY big around here. I treat things person to person, so While I have all kinds of problems with Spartan himself, I don NOT believe the stereotype that EVERYONE in New York is like him. I am just saying that a lost of people around here would be like "ZOMG, someone from NY! Quick, form the lynch mob! Get him before his spreads his lies!!" because alot of people here see New York and California (as in the state, not the people) as our FOIL, or exact opposite. Considering thier policies, I can see that, but I also live near a town with a major university in it, so we get people from all over the world here. And we will treat you right around here...just so long as we dont find out you come from somewhere more "left" than Lawrence *Kansas insider joke*

BOOM headshot65:

Seekster:

Now hold on I know some people from New York who are actually pretty cool. I agree with most of what you said in your post but I wanted to make sure you arent falling into the same trap Spartan fell into (I don't think you are I just want to make sure).

Spartan is unfortunately perpetuating the stereotype of the ignorant, stuck up, big-headed, snobish, northerner who looks down on others. I know this stereotype is overwhelming false just as much as the stereotypes about the south and midwest and basically everywhere else are likewise false. Like all stereotypes they are created by focusing on and highlighting a small minority of the population and applying those characteristics to everyone in a region or group.

Oh no, I am just saying that that sterotype is REALLY big around here. I treat things person to person, so While I have all kinds of problems with Spartan himself, I don NOT believe the stereotype that EVERYONE in New York is like him. I am just saying that a lost of people around here would be like "ZOMG, someone from NY! Quick, form the lynch mob! Get him before his spreads his lies!!" because alot of people here see New York and California (as in the state, not the people) as our FOIL, or exact opposite. Considering thier policies, I can see that, but I also live near a town with a major university in it, so we get people from all over the world here. And we will treat you right around here...just so long as we dont find out you come from somewhere more "left" than Lawrence *Kansas insider joke*

Heh yeah thats what I thought and just wanted to make sure. The feeling in Texas is similar (though a funny piece of trivia, the phrase "Don't Mess with Texas" actually started off as a slogan for a state program to fight littering, I am dead serious.)

BOOM headshot65:
Amazing. You still found a way to insult my home, pigeon-hole hundreds of millions of people, AND point out every bullshit argument against the midwest and south, All while not EXPLICATELY saying the words I said not to use, but still implying them anyway, And even thought up some that have been disproven for so long, we here have completely forgotten about them.

Well done sir, you deserve a round of appluse:

Now, dont be shy, take a bow...so I can stick my boot up your ass.

Seek covered the south, so I will cover MY homefront of the midwest:

#1: Rasicm, sexism, unintellegent

Speaking for Kansas here, did you know that we were one of the first states to intergrate after Brown Vs. Board? That we were not only one of the only states to have full suffrage in the 1800's, but that a KANSAS SENATOR PROPOSED THE 19TH AMENDMENT? That even thought the Equal Rights Act didnt become a national amendment, we added it to our state constitioun anyway? Now, I ask you: HOW ARE WE RACIST OR SEXIST?!?!!? As Seek said, any and all racism is IN THE PAST!

As for the being ignorent, That is something that doesnt bother me. You can be ignorent and still function in society fine. Heck, some of the greatest inventors of all time dropped out of college. Knowledge helps, but lack of knowledge isnt a detrement either.

#2: Bush and Perry.

This one is entirely subjective. I never had Perry as a governor, so I cant speak for him. I doubt he is anything like Brownback. As for Bush, I thought that he was average, maybe just slightly below average. But I think he was WAY better than who we have at the helm now.

#3: The Oil lobby (or, squashing renewables)

I am with seek on this one. Most renewables are at the moment too ineffecient. Plus, they are extremely expensive, and most people around here will never get rid of thier pickup trucks. BECAUSE THEY NEED THEM!! Unless you can direct me to a hybrid or renewable powered pickup truck that fits the following criteria:
1) Cheap, around the price of a new truck now
2) Ease of mantainance, A farmer will have to be able to fix it with tools on the farm
3) Reliable, I am talking able to run for 40 years on the same engine, like some of the stuff made in the '50s
4) Heavy haul capable, The average farmer where I live hauls 5 tons (thats 10,000 lbs) of hay in thier trucks.
5) Durability, Again, has to last a long time, and be able to take the punishment of driving on dirt roads every day.

If you can show me a vehicle that fits those criteria, and is hybrid and cheap, I will GLADLY tell all of my farmer Neighbors about it.

I know that there was a new tech that the oil companies are putting alot of money into. It is a device that absorbs greenhouse gasses (namely, CO2) from the atmosphere and through I process I will not attempt to understand, turns it into OIL, thus making oil into a renewable, and causing the burning of oil to make more oil. That sounds win-win to me. However, the scienist says that while the prototype works fine, it will be 10 years before he can build one refinery size.

After playing your hand, you have proven WHY people here hate New York. Congradulations, Jerk.

Not only that, I could forsee BILLIONS WORLDWIDE starving to death if just the Midwest disappeared. We aint called "The Breadbasket" for nothing.

... Obviously you do not understand how this works. You never said anything about not implying the words. You only said I couldn't say them. In general debating terms, that leaves implication of the words as fair game, a trap any halfway descent debator could fall into, thus proving my point about ignorance. That being said...

#1: You expect to beat me with facts any grade-school student could come up with out of a book?? Get real, man. Addmittedly, Kansas is one of the states of the Midwest region that I feel I could tolerate if I absolutely had to, and I do give the state credit for being one of the first to integrate after Brown V. Board and for being so quick to ratify the 19th Ammendment. But my biggest problem with your argument is that since all the racist stuff happened in the past, we should ignore it. Does the phrase "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it", mean anything to you?? Other than that if you somehow manage to get the rest of the country to forget about the Civil War and the Civil Rights Era and all that stuff that you might get your slaves back? Fat chance.

#2: Obama ended a useless war and has terminated some of the greatest threats to our national security. Bush was focused on revenge and oil, and money. Nothing more, nothing less. His policies reflect that.

#3: The key to defeating the oil lobby and freeing science from it's chains to progress freely doens't need to start with a jump straight to hybrid vehicles. It starts with making vechicles that can do more with less, and there are cetainly a plethora of high-MPG trucks on the world market that fit your criteria. Ford makes one, I believe, if you MUST keep it American.

Eliminating CO2 only solves part of the problem, and this new tech is just simply a way to stick our heads in the sand in a misplaced hope that the theory of "if I can't see you, you aren't real", actually works. CO2 is only one greenhouse gas, and that still doesn't stop other non-greenhouse pollutants from ruining the environment as well. Oil burns off more than just CO2, and that's why this solution won't fix a damn thing except our oil fix. It's like trying to quit smoking by smoking more and more every day: It doesn't work, and just makes things worse.

Seekster:

You think those are 3 valid reasons people in the south and midwest? What kind of monster are you?

1. No thats mostly on ignorant people like you who believe those stereotypes. Yes bad stuff happened in the past, emphasis on "in the past". As for the Confederate flag, its a symbol of southern pride, nothing at all wrong with that. Hell i've seen black guys fly it before.

2. Sorry but both of these are your opinion and only the one about Perry is justifiable. I consider Bush a below average President but right now I would argue that he ranks a bit above Obama so for me the implications of you calling him the worst leader in US history basically has amusing implications. Perry is just a politician who likes Texas. Nobody here in Texas likes Rick Perry, we just vote for him.

3. Renewable energy can compete in the marketplace just like every other power source. This thing about the oil lobby is just an excuse for the poor efficiency of things like solar and wind power right now. Let the technology develop until its actually cost effective and then I will be all to happy to buy a solar car or whatever.

Even if all three of those reasons were valid...

Spartan448:

TechNoFear:

The same can be said about Americans.

If they are from the Midwest or Deep South, or California, then yes, I concur.

What is wrong with you? Dude seriously, thats one of the most ignorant and hateful things I have read on this forum and I have been here a long time.

#1: Again, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it". The Confederacy will always be a huge black mark on the South and America as a whole, and because of your constant racism against other ethnic groups as well, a few THOUSAND New Yorkers died. That alone is a good enough reason for why we Northerners hate you Southerners so much.

#2: No other president in HISTORY (Except Carter) has proven himself to be so inept, so single-minded, so easily corrupted, and so willing to go against the popular voice of the people and HIS OWN DAMN PARTY, often in little more than the names of power, money, personal revenge, and for some odd reason which I STILL cannot comprehend, God, that nonexistiential being that Atheists like myself DISPISE for all the strife it causes.

#3: I could not put it better than Magichead did. This is your most unreasonable argument. Wind and solar are perfectly capable of carrying the National Grid with no power loss and PLENTY of extra room on the grid well into the future. The problem is that no-one wants offshore wind turbines because they'll "spoil the view", and because of lack of national unity, the Chinese can run any glimmer of an American Solar industry into the ground.

Now I will admit there are a few states in the South that are slowly becoming... tolerable (and that's a very generous remark), but the idea still stands that what happened in the past is influencing the public opinion of foreigners in the present, and we Northerners don't very much like US getting killed over things YOU did. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN DAMN ACTIONS FOR ONCE!

Spartan448:

Seekster:

You think those are 3 valid reasons people in the south and midwest? What kind of monster are you?

1. No thats mostly on ignorant people like you who believe those stereotypes. Yes bad stuff happened in the past, emphasis on "in the past". As for the Confederate flag, its a symbol of southern pride, nothing at all wrong with that. Hell i've seen black guys fly it before.

2. Sorry but both of these are your opinion and only the one about Perry is justifiable. I consider Bush a below average President but right now I would argue that he ranks a bit above Obama so for me the implications of you calling him the worst leader in US history basically has amusing implications. Perry is just a politician who likes Texas. Nobody here in Texas likes Rick Perry, we just vote for him.

3. Renewable energy can compete in the marketplace just like every other power source. This thing about the oil lobby is just an excuse for the poor efficiency of things like solar and wind power right now. Let the technology develop until its actually cost effective and then I will be all to happy to buy a solar car or whatever.

Even if all three of those reasons were valid...

Spartan448:

If they are from the Midwest or Deep South, or California, then yes, I concur.

What is wrong with you? Dude seriously, thats one of the most ignorant and hateful things I have read on this forum and I have been here a long time.

#1: Again, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it". The Confederacy will always be a huge black mark on the South and America as a whole, and because of your constant racism against other ethnic groups as well, a few THOUSAND New Yorkers died. That alone is a good enough reason for why we Northerners hate you Southerners so much.

#2: No other president in HISTORY (Except Carter) has proven himself to be so inept, so single-minded, so easily corrupted, and so willing to go against the popular voice of the people and HIS OWN DAMN PARTY, often in little more than the names of power, money, personal revenge, and for some odd reason which I STILL cannot comprehend, God, that nonexistiential being that Atheists like myself DISPISE for all the strife it causes.

#3: I could not put it better than Magichead did. This is your most unreasonable argument. Wind and solar are perfectly capable of carrying the National Grid with no power loss and PLENTY of extra room on the grid well into the future. The problem is that no-one wants offshore wind turbines because they'll "spoil the view", and because of lack of national unity, the Chinese can run any glimmer of an American Solar industry into the ground.

Now I will admit there are a few states in the South that are slowly becoming... tolerable (and that's a very generous remark), but the idea still stands that what happened in the past is influencing the public opinion of foreigners in the present, and we Northerners don't very much like US getting killed over things YOU did. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN DAMN ACTIONS FOR ONCE!

1. Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. In a way simply forgetting history isnt as dangerous as thinking you know it but no knowing it, so yes I am worried about you.

Slavery is a black mark on the south as is the century of legalized discrimination that lingered after slavery was abolished. The south knows this more than anyone else, and has taken more action than anyone else to correct for that stain. The Confederacy on the other hand is not a stain. It represents the lengths that southerners and Americans in general are willing to go to fight for our rights. The irony of course is that much like the 13 colonies, the Confederacy was fighting for the rights of some but also denying rights to others.

2. I get it, you are incapable of having a fair minded or intellegent covnersation about President George W Bush, someone who I will stand up and gladly argue was a better President than our current one and many times a better man. I am proud Bush is from Texas and nothing you or anyone else says is going to change that.

3. I don't care if you want to build a bunch of wind turbines out in the ocean or in the desert somewhere. If it provides power enough to pay for itself then that is fantastic. Do that.

"Now I will admit there are a few states in the South that are slowly becoming... tolerable (and that's a very generous remark), but the idea still stands that what happened in the past is influencing the public opinion of foreigners in the present, and we Northerners don't very much like US getting killed over things YOU did. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN DAMN ACTIONS FOR ONCE!"

No that is a very arrogant and idiotic remark, nothing generous about it. Are you not aware of the racism in northern states too? Are you not aware of the Chicago lynchings or the riots in Cincinnati, New York, and Detroit. We have taken responsibility for the actions of our ancestors (even though it is not possible to be forgiven for something your ancestor did), you will not dare to tell us to take responsibility while simultaneously acting as if there are not black marks in northern states as well.

Spartan448:
... Obviously you do not understand how this works. You never said anything about not implying the words. You only said I couldn't say them. In general debating terms, that leaves implication of the words as fair game, a trap any halfway descent debator could fall into, thus proving my point about ignorance. That being said...

#1: Forget the racism, it will happen again

Now, who is pushing this one. Certainly not I. We NEVER forget the racism here. How CAN we! We were killing eachother over slavery here LONG before the rest of the country was. [see: Bleeding Kansas] No one is FORGETTING RACISM!! But we also dont let the fact it happened lord over us.

#2: Obama is better (or, Evil Bush)

Now, while I cant feel the same pride for Bush that Seekster does, I know I liked Bushs "Good ole Texan boy" nature and I am sure that it is the same pride we feel for Eisenhower here. However, I think Bush was WAY better than Obama. He demonstrated he is cool under pressure, he fought for what he believed was right, no matter who tried to stand in his way, and he oversaw insane prosperity in America. I find it funny that people conviently forget that when the shit hit the fan, the DEMOCRATS CONTROLLED THE SENATE!

#3: Those trucks already exist

Ah, tis true that Ford makes a high-MPG truck (and YES, it HAS too be American-made around here). But heres the thing. It may fit #1 and #4 on my requirments list, but it fails #2, #3, and #5. That is why you see people in the country driving trucks from the 1950-85. They are REALLY easy to fix, they have cheap parts, and are EXTREMELY durable. The only thing they dont have is good MPG, but people are more than willing to overlook that in favor of having all 5 requirements met.

#3: The pollution shall continue until morale improves

Do you not see the principal behind that technology?! A scientist has found a way to take a harmful greenhouse gas (CO2) and turn it into something that can help all of mankind (oil)! What if you could do it with OTHER greenhouse gasses?! Plus, I am not against subsidizing current energy with green energy. Kansas fits that well. Brownback recently approved a MASSIVE windfarm in the western part of the state that will supply 10% of the states power on a SLOW day. Then we get 15% of our power from Wolf Creek Nuclear, but the remaining 75% comes from coal-plants. As somewho who ACTUALLY LIVES NEAR a coal-fired plant, I can say all the arguments against them are scare-tactics only. Jeffry Energy (the one I live near) produces VERY little greenhouse gasses, about the only time it is serious is when they change out the carbon scrubbers, and even then, that is only for about an hour.

Again, Spartan, you have proven that in this debate, YOU are the only ignorent one here.

Seekster:

2. I get it, you are incapable of having a fair minded or intellegent covnersation about President George W Bush, someone who I will stand up and gladly argue was a better President than our current one and many times a better man. I am proud Bush is from Texas and nothing you or anyone else says is going to change that.

Hi. Just wanted to hear what you have to say about Bush. What's so great about him? I have no problem with you or anybody from the south, and Spartan is being completely unnecessarily rude for no reason, but, being British and young enough that I didn't care too much about foreign politics at the time, all I've heard of bush is how damn stupid and corrupt and warmongering he was. I would just like to hear the other side of it.

Chairman Miaow:

Seekster:

2. I get it, you are incapable of having a fair minded or intellegent covnersation about President George W Bush, someone who I will stand up and gladly argue was a better President than our current one and many times a better man. I am proud Bush is from Texas and nothing you or anyone else says is going to change that.

Hi. Just wanted to hear what you have to say about Bush. What's so great about him? I have no problem with you or anybody from the south, and Spartan is being completely unnecessarily rude for no reason, but, being British and young enough that I didn't care too much about foreign politics at the time, all I've heard of bush is how damn stupid and corrupt and warmongering he was. I would just like to hear the other side of it.

I'm from Texas and I like many Texans first encountered Bush not as President but as Governor (or alternately when he was the owner of the Texas Rangers MLB team). You know all those jobs that Rick Perry bragged about when he got in the race. The truth is that while Texas did create a large number of jobs under Perry it has much more to do with Bush than with Perry (Perry was Bush's Lieutenant Governor though word is they dont get along that much).

What I like most about Bush, and from what I have heard a lot of people like Bush for this reason, is that he is about as genuine as you can get in politics and still be elected to high office in today's political climate. When Bush says something, he believes it. I will admit that as far as his presidency goes he is below average (though I would rank him higher than both his father and Obama) but I get pissed when people try to attack his character.

Both Bush and Obama share a common trait in that both believe what they are doing is best for the country and once they have made up their mind in this regard it is next to impossible to shift them from this. Both Bush's friends and enemies will agree that the man stuck to his guns.

I also think that Bush responded to 9/11 and carried on the war against terrorism far better than Gore or Kerry ever could have. Though his foreign policy is certainly controversial and its long-term effects will not be known for a generation, one thing cannot be denied. The world today is a great deal different than it was a decade ago and a great deal of that has to do either directly or indirectly with Bush's decisions.

Bush was not stupid but he was a poor speaker. I've had the privledge of hearing him speak in person (he spoke at the University I graduated from last year). His speaking style and his manner are very plain (that demeanor is popular in Texas, Perry is further evidence of this). What you see with Bush is what you get. Saying the man is stupid is simply a partisan attack with no basis. It is just as baseless as the idiotic claim that Obama is a muslim.

Corrupt? I don't think so, he was a politician though. I think Bush did surround himself with some people who certainly lacked his level of integrity.

Warmongering? Thats a tricky accusation, after 9-11 all Americans were enraged and wanted to make sure that who ever had done this would pay dearly for it. Bush gave us exactly what we wanted in that regard. In retrospect Iraq probably was something we never should have gotten involved in but we did and credit to Bush, he stuck with it no matter how unpopular it made him. It was because of that we were able to leave Iraq in a relatively calm state (calm compared to 2005-2007 at least). If he had bowed to pressure then we would doubtlessly see an all out civil war rip Iraq apart. Obviously this is still a possibility but it was only a few years ago when virtually every foreign policy expert was convinced that Iraq was lost and nothing could prevent an all out civil war.

Seekster:

Chairman Miaow:

Seekster:

2. I get it, you are incapable of having a fair minded or intellegent covnersation about President George W Bush, someone who I will stand up and gladly argue was a better President than our current one and many times a better man. I am proud Bush is from Texas and nothing you or anyone else says is going to change that.

Hi. Just wanted to hear what you have to say about Bush. What's so great about him? I have no problem with you or anybody from the south, and Spartan is being completely unnecessarily rude for no reason, but, being British and young enough that I didn't care too much about foreign politics at the time, all I've heard of bush is how damn stupid and corrupt and warmongering he was. I would just like to hear the other side of it.

I'm from Texas and I like many Texans first encountered Bush not as President but as Governor (or alternately when he was the owner of the Texas Rangers MLB team). You know all those jobs that Rick Perry bragged about when he got in the race. The truth is that while Texas did create a large number of jobs under Perry it has much more to do with Bush than with Perry (Perry was Bush's Lieutenant Governor though word is they dont get along that much).

What I like most about Bush, and from what I have heard a lot of people like Bush for this reason, is that he is about as genuine as you can get in politics and still be elected to high office in today's political climate. When Bush says something, he believes it. I will admit that as far as his presidency goes he is below average (though I would rank him higher than both his father and Obama) but I get pissed when people try to attack his character.

Both Bush and Obama share a common trait in that both believe what they are doing is best for the country and once they have made up their mind in this regard it is next to impossible to shift them from this. Both Bush's friends and enemies will agree that the man stuck to his guns.

I also think that Bush responded to 9/11 and carried on the war against terrorism far better than Gore or Kerry ever could have. Though his foreign policy is certainly controversial and its long-term effects will not be known for a generation, one thing cannot be denied. The world today is a great deal different than it was a decade ago and a great deal of that has to do either directly or indirectly with Bush's decisions.

Bush was not stupid but he was a poor speaker. I've had the privledge of hearing him speak in person (he spoke at the University I graduated from last year). His speaking style and his manner are very plain (that demeanor is popular in Texas, Perry is further evidence of this). What you see with Bush is what you get. Saying the man is stupid is simply a partisan attack with no basis. It is just as baseless as the idiotic claim that Obama is a muslim.

Corrupt? I don't think so, he was a politician though. I think Bush did surround himself with some people who certainly lacked his level of integrity.

Warmongering? Thats a tricky accusation, after 9-11 all Americans were enraged and wanted to make sure that who ever had done this would pay dearly for it. Bush gave us exactly what we wanted in that regard. In retrospect Iraq probably was something we never should have gotten involved in but we did and credit to Bush, he stuck with it no matter how unpopular it made him. It was because of that we were able to leave Iraq in a relatively calm state (calm compared to 2005-2007 at least). If he had bowed to pressure then we would doubtlessly see an all out civil war rip Iraq apart. Obviously this is still a possibility but it was only a few years ago when virtually every foreign policy expert was convinced that Iraq was lost and nothing could prevent an all out civil war.

Thanks, it made for a very interesting read, I've honestly never heard anybody defend bush on any front.

chuckman1:

Was 9/11 really that bad?

Yes. Yes it was. 3,000 civilians, which included children, died in an unprovoked attack.
That is huge fucking deal.

Is it enough to justify some of the following actions taken in retaliation to it? Probably not, but that depends on your own personal views. But yes, as an individual event, it was measurably tragic and emotional responses to it are extremely understandable.

Seekster:

Spartan448:

Seekster:
Oh it is on, I concur with BOOM on this one. You don't level an insult like that and get away with it. Go on, explain yourself.

In the words of Boom, shit HAS gotten real. And out of respect for him (though I am not sure why), I will NOT use the words he asked me not to use.

#1: Prepetuating the negative American steryotype held by the rest of the world. When the rest of the world thinks of America, the first thing that comes to mind are years of racial prejedice and ignorance. It is rarely seen in the North and on the West Coast where you see racial or sexual hate crimes. Those are seen a lot more often in the South, and Midwest, and some households in those regions still attempt to fly the Confederate Flag. You also have a tone of illiteracy and just plain incompetence and stupidity, though that mainly comes from the Bush years, and I feel sorry for Texans because they now are compated to the likes of Bush and Perry, even though they are the extremes.

#2: Bush and Perry. Some of the worst leadership and potential leadership to ever come out of this nation. I don't think I need to explain much about why Bush was bad, and Perry is just tripping all over himself.

#3: The Oil lobby: The South and Midwest are home to some of the biggest oil producers and lobbyists in America, with arguably the largest concentration in Texas. It is the oil lobby that prevents progress in the form of renewable energy.

Those are three very valid reasons, none of which contain any of the words Boom asked me not to use.

You think those are 3 valid reasons people in the south and midwest? What kind of monster are you?

1. No thats mostly on ignorant people like you who believe those stereotypes. Yes bad stuff happened in the past, emphasis on "in the past". As for the Confederate flag, its a symbol of southern pride, nothing at all wrong with that. Hell i've seen black guys fly it before.

2. Sorry but both of these are your opinion and only the one about Perry is justifiable. I consider Bush a below average President but right now I would argue that he ranks a bit above Obama so for me the implications of you calling him the worst leader in US history basically has amusing implications. Perry is just a politician who likes Texas. Nobody here in Texas likes Rick Perry, we just vote for him.

3. Renewable energy can compete in the marketplace just like every other power source. This thing about the oil lobby is just an excuse for the poor efficiency of things like solar and wind power right now. Let the technology develop until its actually cost effective and then I will be all to happy to buy a solar car or whatever.

Even if all three of those reasons were valid...

Spartan448:

TechNoFear:

The same can be said about Americans.

If they are from the Midwest or Deep South, or California, then yes, I concur.

What is wrong with you? Dude seriously, thats one of the most ignorant and hateful things I have read on this forum and I have been here a long time.

"No thats mostly on ignorant people like you who believe those stereotypes."
My heart swelled at that sentence. The level of ignorance a lot of Americans show about an entire region of their own country is despicable. Bigotry didn't die, it just moved north.

I've started to have to simply ignore the Internet's anti-Southern bias though. Its to prevalent to try to argue with every time I see it. Exceptions are made though, that it would be best if a majority of my friends and family 'killed each other off'. What a progressive, morally superior person. Reported.

I love the south, I love the Midwest. People there just have a traditional tendency to be nicer, prouder, more hospitable, and more down to earth.

almostgold:

chuckman1:

Was 9/11 really that bad?

Yes. Yes it was. 3,000 civilians, which included children, died in an unprovoked attack.
That is huge fucking deal.

Is it enough to justify some of the following actions taken in retaliation to it? Probably not, but that depends on your own personal views. But yes, as an individual event, it was measurably tragic and emotional responses to it are extremely understandable.

3,000 people died in a provoked attack. But...how many people die a year in America because of other reasons? Far more.
How many innocent people died because of America's response? 66,081 from Jan '04 to Dec '09 according to WikiLeaks.
Hmmm...justifying killing over 65,000 innocent people because 3,000 innocent people died in a provoked attack...you want a go?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War Linky.

Magical029:

3,000 people died in a provoked attack. But...how many people die a year in America because of other reasons? Far more.
How many innocent people died because of America's response? 66,081 from Jan '04 to Dec '09 according to WikiLeaks.
Hmmm...justifying killing over 65,000 innocent people because 3,000 innocent people died in a provoked attack...you want a go?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War Linky.

Ohhh, but if Americans kill people that's totally okay, you know...

Vegosiux:

Magical029:

3,000 people died in a provoked attack. But...how many people die a year in America because of other reasons? Far more.
How many innocent people died because of America's response? 66,081 from Jan '04 to Dec '09 according to WikiLeaks.
Hmmm...justifying killing over 65,000 innocent people because 3,000 innocent people died in a provoked attack...you want a go?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War Linky.

Ohhh, but if Americans kill people that's totally okay, you know...

Sorry for forgetting the sacred rule.

But really, I find that attitude quote annoying...

Magical029:

almostgold:

chuckman1:

Was 9/11 really that bad?

Yes. Yes it was. 3,000 civilians, which included children, died in an unprovoked attack.
That is huge fucking deal.

Is it enough to justify some of the following actions taken in retaliation to it? Probably not, but that depends on your own personal views. But yes, as an individual event, it was measurably tragic and emotional responses to it are extremely understandable.

3,000 people died in a provoked attack. But...how many people die a year in America because of other reasons? Far more.
How many innocent people died because of America's response? 66,081 from Jan '04 to Dec '09 according to WikiLeaks.
Hmmm...justifying killing over 65,000 innocent people because 3,000 innocent people died in a provoked attack...you want a go?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War Linky.

Please read my entire post next time. Thank you. Relevant part bolded above and repeated below, in case you're really just that bad at missing it.

"Is it enough to justify some of the following actions taken in retaliation to it? Probably not, but that depends on your own personal views. But yes, as an individual event,..."

BOOM headshot65:

#1: Forget the racism, it will happen again

Now, who is pushing this one. Certainly not I. We NEVER forget the racism here. How CAN we! We were killing eachother over slavery here LONG before the rest of the country was. [see: Bleeding Kansas] No one is FORGETTING RACISM!! But we also dont let the fact it happened lord over us.

#2: Obama is better (or, Evil Bush)

Now, while I cant feel the same pride for Bush that Seekster does, I know I liked Bushs "Good ole Texan boy" nature and I am sure that it is the same pride we feel for Eisenhower here. However, I think Bush was WAY better than Obama. He demonstrated he is cool under pressure, he fought for what he believed was right, no matter who tried to stand in his way, and he oversaw insane prosperity in America. I find it funny that people conviently forget that when the shit hit the fan, the DEMOCRATS CONTROLLED THE SENATE!

#3: Those trucks already exist

Ah, tis true that Ford makes a high-MPG truck (and YES, it HAS too be American-made around here). But heres the thing. It may fit #1 and #4 on my requirments list, but it fails #2, #3, and #5. That is why you see people in the country driving trucks from the 1950-85. They are REALLY easy to fix, they have cheap parts, and are EXTREMELY durable. The only thing they dont have is good MPG, but people are more than willing to overlook that in favor of having all 5 requirements met.

#3: The pollution shall continue until morale improves

Do you not see the principal behind that technology?! A scientist has found a way to take a harmful greenhouse gas (CO2) and turn it into something that can help all of mankind (oil)! What if you could do it with OTHER greenhouse gasses?! Plus, I am not against subsidizing current energy with green energy. Kansas fits that well. Brownback recently approved a MASSIVE windfarm in the western part of the state that will supply 10% of the states power on a SLOW day. Then we get 15% of our power from Wolf Creek Nuclear, but the remaining 75% comes from coal-plants. As somewho who ACTUALLY LIVES NEAR a coal-fired plant, I can say all the arguments against them are scare-tactics only. Jeffry Energy (the one I live near) produces VERY little greenhouse gasses, about the only time it is serious is when they change out the carbon scrubbers, and even then, that is only for about an hour.

Again, Spartan, you have proven that in this debate, YOU are the only ignorent one here.

#1: I know about the "Bleeding Kansas" incident, but you cannot ignore the fact that in that incident, the people were urging on the pro-slavery person. And while you may not be "lording it over yourselvs" down there, the fact that most all White Southern Americans in the election voted Republican, and most all of that group said that race was an issue, still makes an impression upon the rest of the nation.

#2: You cannot compare Eisenhower and Bush at all, especially not their attitudes. Eisenhower was focused on doing good for a whole nation, not just a single state. And Bush more or less took advantage of Clinton in the prospect of overseeing large amounts of prosperity. The policies the Republican congress and White House put into effect did nothing to help and everything to hurt the economy. These things have delayed reactions. It's like saying that despite the fact that the economy is starting to recover now it's only because the Republicans now control the house. Also, Bush was a divider, not a uniter. Under Bush, anti-homosexual sentiments reached a high, and under Obama, some states now legally recognize gay marrage. And I do believe that Kansas is one of them, so clap clap clap for you. Obama also has tried to push through things he believes is right, but he wants to do it with bipartisan support in an effort to unite a currently divided political spectrum. I would probably be holding the South, the Midwest, AND the Republican Party in a lot higher regard if the first thing on their list of reasons for voting out Obama was "Because we believe we have a plan that won't re-instate the bad parts of the Bush years and also fixes the economy", instead of "Because he's a Democrat", and "Because he's Black". Let's also not forget that Bush ticked off a lot of important existing and potential allies, and made diplomatic situations with Russia, China, and North Korea quite a bit trickier than what would be good.

#3: Trucks from the 50's were a lot simpler and could be more easily repaired. You really can't do that with newer trucks. However, they are certainly both more durable, able to do more, and last longer than trucks made in the 50's. Admittedly, yes, newer trucks are made more for hauling around boats and construction equipment, but you can still take an old truck into a shop to see if the engine can be made to run cleaner. It all starts with taking the INITIATIVE, which is why I'm very glad to see that there is a wind farm going up.

#4: CO2 is a very simple greenhouse gas. It is very easy to do something like that scientist did with compounds with only three molecules in them. However, it would take too long for ways to do this with other gasses to develop, so long that it would be impractical. I also don't consider anything that has the potential to kill any living thing within a hundred-mile radius and then poison the land for years to come as a "clean source of energy". Here in New York, where we have pretty much the most dangerous nuclear plan in the nation, we've been trying hard to get Indian Point shut down. As for the coal-fired plant, how OFTEN do they change the scrubbers, is one thing you need to say to make a convincing argument. In addition, the few greenhouse gasses you're noticing are ones that are again very simple to work with, but were just a bit too complicated to do anything about. When you have a coal-fired plant, the goal is to spend as little on cleanup as possible. Therefore, you only spend money on scrubbing out gasses that people will actually notice. There are lots more greenhouse emissons being released than your realizing. It may be safe to live near, but it certainly isn't any less clean that other plants.

And if your going to call me ignorant, at least spell it right. That's only prepetuating the steryotype that people in your region can't spell.

Spartan448:

#1: You got the civil war in your own state wrong

You do realise that until 1965, the DEMOCRATS were the party of racism and slavery, right?! LBJ and Kennedy were the ones who changed that, and even then, the democrats in the south were trying to stop the civil rights act. Racism knew no party lines, it knew no borders. It was omnipresent and omnipotent. That is the plan and simple truth. Also, Mr. Spelling Nazi:

Spartan448:
Lord it over yourselvs

Spartan448:
If your going to call me ignorant, at least spell it right

Look whos talking.

#2: Obama is STILL better than Bush, and so was Eisenhower

Actually, you are right for once, Eisenhower WAS better than Bush. But then, I think he was the BEST PRESIDENT WE EVER HAD! with Reagan finishing close second. As for being a divider:

image

I'd say that Obama has done WAY more to divide the country than Bush did. I mean, if someone had told me America would be like this in 2004, I would have loled in thier face. Also, you are wrong, In Kansas, same-sex marriage is still illegal, and most likely always will be. Am I happy about that? No. However, Same-sex civil unions are legal and it seems most people dont notice. Maybe because that is "big daddy feds" job, and people usually to him out.

#3: Buy new trucks and green tech NAO!!!

New trucks more durable and reliable than old ones??

Most new trucks break down REALLY fast, usually within 5 years of rolling off the line. As for making trucks run cleaner, that cost money, and ALOT of it. Most farmers are too much in debt because of the darn farm subsidize to even AFFORD a new truck, let alone fix up the one they have now.

#4: Simple gasses are simple

First off, I am not a big fan of nuclear either, but for now we have to live with it.

Now, as for the rest...How do YOU know that other gasses are to complex? Could you have forseen a way to remove CO2 from the atmosphere. Science will always find a way. As for the answer to your question, they change out the scrubbers once every 10 years. But it doesnt matter, I have heard environmentalist complain about all green energy:

Wind: The turbine blades will kill birds
Solar: The reflected light will increase global warming
Hydro: That dam will destroy wildlife

Heck, I have heard them complain about things that are GOOD for the envrionment, like the buring of the tallgrass prarie every year in the spring.

almostgold:

Magical029:

almostgold:

Yes. Yes it was. 3,000 civilians, which included children, died in an unprovoked attack.
That is huge fucking deal.

Is it enough to justify some of the following actions taken in retaliation to it? Probably not, but that depends on your own personal views. But yes, as an individual event, it was measurably tragic and emotional responses to it are extremely understandable.

3,000 people died in a provoked attack. But...how many people die a year in America because of other reasons? Far more.
How many innocent people died because of America's response? 66,081 from Jan '04 to Dec '09 according to WikiLeaks.
Hmmm...justifying killing over 65,000 innocent people because 3,000 innocent people died in a provoked attack...you want a go?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War Linky.

Please read my entire post next time. Thank you. Relevant part bolded above and repeated below, in case you're really just that bad at missing it.

"Is it enough to justify some of the following actions taken in retaliation to it? Probably not, but that depends on your own personal views. But yes, as an individual event,..."

Considering the Iraq War had little-to-nothing to do with the September 11th attacks, I fail to see how said war could be called 'justified' based on them unless you're doing Olympic level mental gymnastics.

BOOM headshot65:

Spartan448:

#1: You got the civil war in your own state wrong

You do realise that until 1965, the DEMOCRATS were the party of racism and slavery, right?! LBJ and Kennedy were the ones who changed that, and even then, the democrats in the south were trying to stop the civil rights act. Racism knew no party lines, it knew no borders. It was omnipresent and omnipotent. That is the plan and simple truth. Also, Mr. Spelling Nazi:

Spartan448:
Lord it over yourselvs

Spartan448:
If your going to call me ignorant, at least spell it right

Look whos talking.

#2: Obama is STILL better than Bush, and so was Eisenhower

Actually, you are right for once, Eisenhower WAS better than Bush. But then, I think he was the BEST PRESIDENT WE EVER HAD! with Reagan finishing close second. As for being a divider:

I'd say that Obama has done WAY more to divide the country than Bush did. I mean, if someone had told me America would be like this in 2004, I would have loled in thier face. Also, you are wrong, In Kansas, same-sex marriage is still illegal, and most likely always will be. Am I happy about that? No. However, Same-sex civil unions are legal and it seems most people dont notice. Maybe because that is "big daddy feds" job, and people usually to him out.

#3: Buy new trucks and green tech NOW!!!

New trucks more durable and reliable than old ones??

Most new trucks break down REALLY fast, usually within 5 years of rolling off the line. As for making trucks run cleaner, that cost money, and ALOT of it. Most farmers are too much in debt because of the darn farm subsidize to even AFFORD a new truck, let alone fix up the one they have now.

#4: Simple gasses are simple

First off, I am not a big fan of nuclear either, but for now we have to live with it.

Now, as for the rest...How do YOU know that other gasses are to complex? Could you have forseen a way to remove CO2 from the atmosphere. Science will always find a way. As for the answer to your question, they change out the scrubbers once every 10 years. But it doesnt matter, I have heard environmentalist complain about all green energy:

Wind: The turbine blades will kill birds
Solar: The reflected light will increase global warming
Hydro: That dam will destroy wildlife

Heck, I have heard them complain about things that are GOOD for the envrionment, like the buring of the tallgrass prarie every year in the spring.

#1: You are correct, Racism does not know party lines. I never implied that it did, just that is was much more prevalent amongst the Republican party, and social surveys taken during the '08 election year prove that. And again, if you're going to complain about my spelling, you should get your grammar right. You're missing an apostrophe.

#2: Give me one thing Obama did to divide the Country, OTHER than pushing same-sex marrige laws.

#3: Crushing debt is a problem, I do concur. Yes, we even do feel it up here in NYC, Home of Wall Street and money-mongering banks. However, that is why our government needs to give tax breaks and grants and such to people who DO want to make their old trucks run more cleanly, and more efficiently.

#4: It's simple chemistry, really. Simple gases have less parts, therefore, it is easier to figure out how to break them down by chemical means. The removal of CO2 from the atmosphere could be esily done, my guess is that they found some way to more efficiently break down CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen, it's component elements. More complex chemicals can take longer to work with though. Say, for example, if a greenhouse gas had a large concentration of Sodium. You'd have to figure out a way to safely seperate it even before small-scale testing, or your lab might be engulfed in a blazing inferno when the Sodium reacts with the Oxygen in the air. That's why pure Sodium is never found in nature. BECAUSE FIRE HAPPENS!!!

As for those claims you've heard about solar, wind, and hydro, most of those are invented claims.

Solar: Reflection of sunlight is what our planet does naturally, so there really is no difference. In addition, these solar rays are focusing on a collection tower, much like the tech on the ISS, one of Humankind's greatest achievements. If anything, it may result in a global COOLING.

Wind: Most studies show that as long as turbines are built out of the way of bird migration paths or offshore, bird casualties would be slim to none. The REAL danger would be for boats running passive radar or sonar that don't detect the turbines in foggy weather, or boats and small aircraft running without instruments in similar conditions.

Hydro: We don't necessarily need to dam up rivers, all we need to do is have the water spin a turbine. If we build on waterfalls instead of rivers, damage to ecosystems is reduced, in a system that has already proven to have minimal impact on wildlife.

And yeah, hippies will say stuff along the lines of "burning any grass is bad, man!"

Anyway, I've been thinking: It's obvious neither one of us is going to give more than an inch. So, in the spirit of the great debator Henry Clay, I say that we aggree that we agree that we both hate each other, and arguing is no use as we're never going to get anywhere. (See we can do this because this is the internet, not a bunch of religious fanatics or governments)

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