A question for atheists

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As I browse the net and search the forums of various sites it truly saddens me the verbal beatings that atheists unleash on people who say they believe in God or any form of creationism(and sometimes they do the same to conservatives). This site is quite mature and I haven't seen any horrible abuses on a person ,for there beliefs(i'm new). If any of you have ever been on 9gag, went to and read the comments on posts pertaining to religion you'll know what i'm talking about. So what i'm asking is why do people, of atheistic views, constantly have to attack people? They call us inbred, war mongering rednecks who are stupid and horrible people! Yet all they do is rip on us for our beliefs...pretty tolerant huh?

What do you guys think?

I think those particular atheists are doing it wrong. We should criticize/attack the belief system, not the believers.

Hate goes both ways, don't judge a whole group of people based on their beliefs (or lack there of) in the same way we don't judge you for the narrow-minded ones who are part of your religion.

I don't really see the question in this post.

What I think though (if that's your question) is that people throwing hate at the followers of a faith won't solve anything for them, they need to try make their point of view more accessible if they want others to understand it, not just piss people off so much they start to hate atheism, that will never win people over.

Popadoo:
in the same way we don't judge you for the narrow-minded ones who are part of your religion.

Are you by chance new to this forum? While your point about not judging atheists is very reasonable and salient, judging all of religion by the behavior of a tiny number of narrow-minded religious people is practically this forum's hobby.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that on any given day of the year, you could come to this forum, and one of the top 10 threads would contain someone making a sweeping judgement about all religious people or all religions based on an incorrect stereotype. Meanwhile, it is considerably less likely that you would find the same stereotyping of atheists.

Well said, although I don't agree with attacking the belief system either. People give Christians the stereotype that we push religion onto others but let me ask you a question. Who do you see pushing their beliefs more atheists or Christians?

mdk31:
I think those particular atheists are doing it wrong. We should criticize/attack the belief system, not the believers.

Sorry didn't think I'd get any hits :P

Midgeamoo:
I don't really see the question in this post.

What I think though (if that's your question) is that people throwing hate at the followers of a faith won't solve anything for them, they need to try make their point of view more accessible if they want others to understand it, not just piss people off so much they start to hate atheism, that will never win people over.

Yes that is my question Why the disgusting hate. Go to 9gag.com look at any post with any mention to religion,most likely trashing it, and you will be appalled! Its truly sad that were the ones considered intolerant of others beliefs...

Nick Snover:

Midgeamoo:
I don't really see the question in this post.

What I think though (if that's your question) is that people throwing hate at the followers of a faith won't solve anything for them, they need to try make their point of view more accessible if they want others to understand it, not just piss people off so much they start to hate atheism, that will never win people over.

Yes that is my question Why the disgusting hate. Go to 9gag.com look at any post with any mention to religion,most likely trashing it, and you will be appalled! Its truly sad that were the ones considered intolerant of others beliefs...

By saying "were" you're acting as if all of the religious are targeted by all of the atheists though, this is a bunch of people on a website that speak as themselves, not for all atheists. Some people will be douches to those that believe differently to them, not just on religious grounds, but on all of them. It's a trait of the internet douche, not the atheist.

Oh thank God. I saw the thread title and thought the topic would be something like, "How can atheists have real morality without religion?" or something equally flamebait-y.

Yeah, some atheists do develop an elitist attitude towards anybody else who believes in God. Even though that subsection can, I think, have relatively good intentions in trying to "educate" people, ironically they can end up mirroring their annoying, preachy counterparts that try to tell you about Jesus. Don't think that all atheists are jerks. It's just a vocal minority that ruin it for everyone else. Again, much like Christianity, or any other religion you can name.

(Personally, I don't much see the point in arguing. We're probably never going to get a definite answer, so we should spend time discussing more important things. Like pie.)

Midgeamoo:

Nick Snover:

Midgeamoo:
I don't really see the question in this post.

What I think though (if that's your question) is that people throwing hate at the followers of a faith won't solve anything for them, they need to try make their point of view more accessible if they want others to understand it, not just piss people off so much they start to hate atheism, that will never win people over.

Yes that is my question Why the disgusting hate. Go to 9gag.com look at any post with any mention to religion,most likely trashing it, and you will be appalled! Its truly sad that were the ones considered intolerant of others beliefs...

By saying "were" you're acting as if all of the religious are targeted by all of the atheists though, this is a bunch of people on a website that speak as themselves, not for all atheists. Some people will be douches to those that believe differently to them, not just on religious grounds, but on all of them. It's a trait of the internet douche, not the atheist.

I agree douche bags will be douche bags sorry for generalizing

Captain Booyah:
Oh thank God. I saw the thread title and thought the topic would be something like, "How can atheists have real morality without religion?" or something equally flamebait-y.

Yeah, some atheists do develop an elitist attitude towards anybody else who believes in God. Even though that subsection can, I think, have relatively good intentions in trying to "educate" people, ironically they can end up mirroring their annoying, preachy counterparts that try to tell you about Jesus. Don't think that all atheists are jerks. It's just a vocal minority that ruin it for everyone else. Again, much like Christianity, or any other religion you can name.

(Personally, I don't much see the point in arguing. We're probably never going to get a definite answer, so we should spend time discussing more important things. Like pie.)

agreed whats your favorite flavor of pie?

Katatori-kun:

Popadoo:
in the same way we don't judge you for the narrow-minded ones who are part of your religion.

Are you by chance new to this forum? While your point about not judging atheists is very reasonable and salient, judging all of religion by the behavior of a tiny number of narrow-minded religious people is practically this forum's hobby.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that on any given day of the year, you could come to this forum, and one of the top 10 threads would contain someone making a sweeping judgement about all religious people or all religions based on an incorrect stereotype. Meanwhile, it is considerably less likely that you would find the same stereotyping of atheists.

Those people who bash religion are the equivalent of the narrow-minded religious ones, they're there, but we aren't all like that. It's just that they make themselves heard by flaming louder.

Nick Snover:

Captain Booyah:
(Personally, I don't much see the point in arguing. We're probably never going to get a definite answer, so we should spend time discussing more important things. Like pie.)

agreed whats your favorite flavor of pie?

Cherry, clearly. There is no other reasonable answer. /cherrypiefundamentalist

Nick Snover:
They call us

What a peculiar wording, this. Ussually those words indicate an attempt at generalizing people to a sort of rally call, or demonizing another group.

Anyway, if you want an example of why, leave your church, or first make yourself a member of a more radical church and then leave it. I can't guarantee your personal safety or mental wellbeing if you decide to try that experiment, but at least if you've lived through months of harassment, getting talked down to like you need 'rescue' or need 'redemption' and see so-called friends turn their backs on you, you'll probably understand why some people are allergic to a few types of religion.

For certain if you'd seen what I saw, I suspect you'd want to bury certain clerical characters on the spot as well. And it would be a testament to your tolerance if you didn't put that idea into actions.

Captain Booyah:
Oh thank God. I saw the thread title and thought the topic would be something like, "How can atheists have real morality without religion?" or something equally flamebait-y.

Yeah, some atheists do develop an elitist attitude towards anybody else who believes in God. Even though that subsection can, I think, have relatively good intentions in trying to "educate" people, ironically they can end up mirroring their annoying, preachy counterparts that try to tell you about Jesus. Don't think that all atheists are jerks. It's just a vocal minority that ruin it for everyone else. Again, much like Christianity, or any other religion you can name.

(Personally, I don't much see the point in arguing. We're probably never going to get a definite answer, so we should spend time discussing more important things. Like pie.)

I'm glad you brought up this very important subject.

Recently I bought a Mud Pie. For those unaware it is coffee and chocolate flavored ice cream cake, but they call it pie so I still feel like i'm on topic here.

Well, just last night I ate a slice and put some whipped cream on top but as I put it on the can of whipped cream expired. Now I'm sitting here, desiring a slice of mud pie but I do not know if it is worth eating a slice without the whipped cream and I just so happen to be snowed in at the moment.

In your humble opinion, oh pie conosseurs, should I eat a slice regardless of cream or not?

Nick Snover:
As I browse the net and search the forums of various sites it truly saddens me the verbal beatings that atheists unleash on people who say they believe in God or any form of creationism(and sometimes they do the same to conservatives). This site is quite mature and I haven't seen any horrible abuses on a person ,for there beliefs(i'm new). If any of you have ever been on 9gag, went to and read the comments on posts pertaining to religion you'll know what i'm talking about. So what i'm asking is why do people, of atheistic views, constantly have to attack people? They call us inbred, war mongering rednecks who are stupid and horrible people! Yet all they do is rip on us for our beliefs...pretty tolerant huh?

What do you guys think?

Well vociferous arguments from militant atheist are nothing new, and there's just as violent a group of evangelicals trying to shout down the atheist. It's easy to try and take the words of extreme elements and try to paint the whole in a similar color, but you only do yourself a disservice.

Most atheist are very polite and thoughtful people, and so are most religious people. There are those who will think you are thickheaded or stupid for disagreeing with them. Then again there are those who think briefs are better than boxers *scoff*.

Don't be meek when it comes to sharing your views but don't expect not to be attacked by those with dissenting opinions. Try to understand that people go through a lot in their lives, and it wouldn't surprise me if many of the folks who "hate" religion and people of faith have dealt with some pretty mean characters on the other side of the aisle which has polarized them firmly against our beliefs.

Captain Booyah:

Nick Snover:

Captain Booyah:
(Personally, I don't much see the point in arguing. We're probably never going to get a definite answer, so we should spend time discussing more important things. Like pie.)

agreed whats your favorite flavor of pie?

Cherry, clearly. There is no other reasonable answer. /cherrypiefundamentalist

Won't you cherries ever see the truth, blueberry is the true berry!!!!!

It's because the internet has an odd tendancy to make people assholes.

More generally, it can be attributed to a feeling of being attacked by religion or that religion is leading us to make questionable decisions. Even ignoring the nuts that strap on bombs in the name of Allah, comments and legal posturing on things ranging from modern entertainment to our sexual practices lead to a feeling that the crusades never ended and we are still being told what is "right" to beleive and expected to convert. Worse is when this spills over into very tangible things. I'm not sold on climate change, but I'm going to defer to the scientist with scientific evidence than a bible thumper that says only "god" will destroy the world, becuae I don't think the arguement of a centuries old, questionably translated book should hold any weight.

I don't deny anyone the right to beleive that they want, but when I'm expected to follow those beleifs, or faith trumps evidence when important people make decisions, it's hard not to see legitimized bigotry and a hinderance to progress. Granted this isn't as prevelant as die hard Aethists like Christopher Hitchens or bill Maher make it out to be, but when a politican responds to a drought by asking people to pray for rain, I do worry for the future.

Nick Snover:
Well said, although I don't agree with attacking the belief system either. People give Christians the stereotype that we push religion onto others but let me ask you a question. Who do you see pushing their beliefs more atheists or Christians?

Definitely christians, any day of the week. No doubt about it. Heck, it's right there in the job description; make everybody in the world a disciple.

Elcarsh:

Nick Snover:
Well said, although I don't agree with attacking the belief system either. People give Christians the stereotype that we push religion onto others but let me ask you a question. Who do you see pushing their beliefs more atheists or Christians?

Definitely christians, any day of the week. No doubt about it. Heck, it's right there in the job description; make everybody in the world a disciple.

Depends on the sphere, surely.

Probably more likely to be atheists in cyberspace, but Christians in meatspace.

Then again there are those who think briefs are better than boxers *scoff*. [/quote]

Well i see we don't agree on undergarment choices...Ps3 or 360?

Oirish_Martin:

Elcarsh:

Nick Snover:
Well said, although I don't agree with attacking the belief system either. People give Christians the stereotype that we push religion onto others but let me ask you a question. Who do you see pushing their beliefs more atheists or Christians?

Definitely christians, any day of the week. No doubt about it. Heck, it's right there in the job description; make everybody in the world a disciple.

Depends on the sphere, surely.

Probably more likely to be atheists in cyberspace, but Christians in meatspace.

Yeah, I was going to say this but then you beat me to it. Religious people are most common and vocal in real life, while atheists like myself are more common on the Internet. I do notice an annoying tendency of atheists which is like pseudo-trolling, in which they find an article about religion like "Is Easter Really About Chocolate" and then start fights with people about how there is no good. Pick your battles guys!

Oirish_Martin:
Depends on the sphere, surely.

Probably more likely to be atheists in cyberspace, but Christians in meatspace.

I disagree. People tend to use far too wide concepts of "pushing your beliefs into someone's face". Writing on an internet forum cannot possibly constitute doing that, because people come here exclusively to exchange views. It's what this whole thing is made for! Anyone saying otherwise are absolutely and doubtlessly wrong, completely and utterly.

Redd the Sock:
It's because the internet has an odd tendancy to make people assholes.

More generally, it can be attributed to a feeling of being attacked by religion or that religion is leading us to make questionable decisions. Even ignoring the nuts that strap on bombs in the name of Allah, comments and legal posturing on things ranging from modern entertainment to our sexual practices lead to a feeling that the crusades never ended and we are still being told what is "right" to beleive and expected to convert. Worse is when this spills over into very tangible things. I'm not sold on climate change, but I'm going to defer to the scientist with scientific evidence than a bible thumper that says only "god" will destroy the world, becuae I don't think the arguement of a centuries old, questionably translated book should hold any weight.

I don't deny anyone the right to beleive that they want, but when I'm expected to follow those beleifs, or faith trumps evidence when important people make decisions, it's hard not to see legitimized bigotry and a hinderance to progress. Granted this isn't as prevelant as die hard Aethists like Christopher Hitchens or bill Maher make it out to be, but when a politican responds to a drought by asking people to pray for rain, I do worry for the future.

Yes it seems like all to often Christians act like use car salesmen and try too hard! I've chatted about god, and other philosophies, with people at my job but I don't really expect to get anywhere either. I just do it for fun and the praying for rain thing really is just stupid you shouldn't do that for approval by ,i'm assuming conservatives, That's something you do in the privacy of your own home between you and God ,not news cameras.

Elcarsh:

Oirish_Martin:
Depends on the sphere, surely.

Probably more likely to be atheists in cyberspace, but Christians in meatspace.

I disagree. People tend to use far too wide concepts of "pushing your beliefs into someone's face". Writing on an internet forum cannot possibly constitute doing that, because people come here exclusively to exchange views. It's what this whole thing is made for! Anyone saying otherwise are absolutely and doubtlessly wrong, completely and utterly.

Well, I wasn't referring to forum usage in general, although I suppose that's most likely where the statements of non-belief are going to occur.

But I take your point.

aPod:

Captain Booyah:
(Personally, I don't much see the point in arguing. We're probably never going to get a definite answer, so we should spend time discussing more important things. Like pie.)

I'm glad you brought up this very important subject.

Recently I bought a Mud Pie. For those unaware it is coffee and chocolate flavored ice cream cake, but they call it pie so I still feel like i'm on topic here.

Well, just last night I ate a slice and put some whipped cream on top but as I put it on the can of whipped cream expired. Now I'm sitting here, desiring a slice of mud pie but I do not know if it is worth eating a slice without the whipped cream and I just so happen to be snowed in at the moment.

In your humble opinion, oh pie conosseurs, should I eat a slice regardless of cream or not?

How out-of-date is the whipped cream? If it's only out by, like, a day, then as a general rule, if it looks, smells and tastes all right, then it probably is all right (ohgodI'mgoingtogivesomeonefoodpoisoning). Any more than that, though, and I wouldn't risk it and just eat the pie by itself. The moment you're not snowed in, run out and buy some more cream. This is assuming there is still pie left and/or the pie isn't out-of-date too.

Or, eat the pie with cream regardless of how out-of-date it is. Food poisoning is but a small risk to truly show your love for pie. It's a test of devotion.

Extra bonus solution: MacGuyver your own cream out of the snow. This is for professionals only.

Nick Snover:

Captain Booyah:

Nick Snover:

agreed whats your favorite flavor of pie?

Cherry, clearly. There is no other reasonable answer. /cherrypiefundamentalist

Won't you cherries ever see the truth, blueberry is the true berry!!!!!

Yeah, sure it is. If you're wrong. *snubs*

No, I've never been to "9gag".
Regardless, I have to say it's probably due to their experiences with religious people in real life. In many places Atheists are marginalized, hated, considered inferior, violently accosted etc. by the religious and primarily the Christian or Muslim majorities.
On the internet, people are freer. They can say what they mean to. But they can also vent. Atheists are people, too, and when we are continually under attack, we react emotionally and overgeneralize.
Additionally, there are many issues where organized religion leads to horrible, horrible results. Not just in the past but in the present as well, both in our own countries and in other countries. We learn about these things and are angered by the power and influence religions have and may forget that there are other religious people, too, people who have little to do with the atrocities we are angered by, who want a secular state, people who don't want to infringe on Human Rights, who could even be potential allies.
Yet also some religious people have overly thin skin and consider any criticism of their religion a vicious personal attack. Not saying you, OP, are necessarily such a person, but these people exist and they make having a proper argument impossible.
From my point of view, where we Atheists are at fault is when it comes to overgeneralizations and lack of qualifications of the things we say.
But that's not to say I don't see a lot to fault the religious with, too.

Elcarsh:

Nick Snover:
Well said, although I don't agree with attacking the belief system either. People give Christians the stereotype that we push religion onto others but let me ask you a question. Who do you see pushing their beliefs more atheists or Christians?

Definitely christians, any day of the week. No doubt about it. Heck, it's right there in the job description; make everybody in the world a disciple.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Many Atheists can't help but meddle in others business. They constantly try to start stuff like removing the cross at ground zero taking nativity scenes out of small towns, heck creationism isn't taught in school but evolution is and which one is followed by atheists and taught in every public school in the country? I go to church about 4hrs a week how many hours a week do kids go to science class and learn evolution?

Nick Snover:
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Many Atheists can't help but meddle in others business. They constantly try to start stuff like removing the cross at ground zero taking nativity scenes out of small towns,

How much do you know about the particular cases, and how much is stuff you've just heard about or read about on the internet?

Nick Snover:
heck creationism isn't taught in school but evolution is and which one is followed by atheists and taught in every public school in the country? I go to church about 4hrs a week how many hours a week do kids go to science class and learn evolution?

Wait, you're complaining that creationism isn't taught in school but evolution is? You do realize that creationism is made up bullshit and evolution is science, right?

Nick Snover:

Elcarsh:

Nick Snover:
Well said, although I don't agree with attacking the belief system either. People give Christians the stereotype that we push religion onto others but let me ask you a question. Who do you see pushing their beliefs more atheists or Christians?

Definitely christians, any day of the week. No doubt about it. Heck, it's right there in the job description; make everybody in the world a disciple.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Many Atheists can't help but meddle in others business. They constantly try to start stuff like removing the cross at ground zero taking nativity scenes out of small towns,heck creationism isn't taught in school but evolution is and which one is followed by atheists and taught in every public school in the country? I go to church about 4hrs a week how many hours a week do kids go to science class and learn evolution?

Have you considered their arguments?

Off the top of my head:

- An opposing religious symbol at the site of an obviously religiously-motivated terrorist attack is not necessarily the best idea seeing as most people are trying to not turn this into some kind of holy war on both sides (in addition, while it was certainly an evocative symbol the cross was hardly a miraculous creation as pretty much every structure contains cross-beams).

- Evolution simply is not an exclusively atheistic concept. The majority of evolutionists are Christians. There is also little to no scientific support of creationism.

- The nativity scenes recently that were countered by atheists were funded by public money. Like it or not, there's a whole mess of precedent in the USA that interprets publicly funded religious displays as a violation of the Establishment Clause of the Constitution.

You'll notice that two of these involved Christian symbolism being present as an accepted standard. But it's only when this is questioned that people start getting upset, even if it comes from a minority.

As another example, there's a public broadcast show I stream called the Atheist Experience, which frequently gets calls from irate Christians saying they need to stop what they're doing and stop offending Christians. These guys are the one atheist radio show in an area swamped with Christian broadcasting - and the Christians there don't even want them to have that.

Nick Snover:
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Many Atheists can't help but meddle in others business. They constantly try to start stuff like removing the cross at ground zero taking nativity scenes out of small towns

Because after all, placing a monument that says "Hey you barbaric Muslims hordes, we Americans are all Christians and this is indeed a religious war we're fighting" is a good thing, right?

As for the rest, 95% of that stuff is lies spread by evangelists, and in the remaining few, you can be pretty certain it was genuine religious harassment that was being targeted.

Nick Snover:
heck creationism isn't taught in school but evolution is and which one is followed by atheists and taught in every public school in the country? I go to church about 4hrs a week how many hours a week do kids go to science class and learn evolution?

Wait, what, you're comparing classes in biology to a religious belief? Do you also compare the top speed at which racing cars and apples can be driven across the highway?

Besides, it's impossible that 'atheists follow' something. Atheism has no doctrine, thus it can not be followed by definition. Atheism is quite simply the lack of believing in the existance of fictional supreme beings, and/or the lack of adherence to a religion.

Elcarsh:

Nick Snover:
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Many Atheists can't help but meddle in others business. They constantly try to start stuff like removing the cross at ground zero taking nativity scenes out of small towns,

How much do you know about the particular cases, and how much is stuff you've just heard about or read about on the internet?

Nick Snover:
heck creationism isn't taught in school but evolution is and which one is followed by atheists and taught in every public school in the country? I go to church about 4hrs a week how many hours a week do kids go to science class and learn evolution?

Wait, you're complaining that creationism isn't taught in school but evolution is? You do realize that creationism is made up bullshit and evolution is science, right?

http://www.wreg.com/news/wreg-cross-whiteville-removed,0,4646449.story
Now the way of dealing with it was strange but there's an example... and there are countless others just google it

And thank you for your religious tolerance my religion is complete bullshit. Sorry I don't believe in the "theory" of evolution and know the secrets of the universe live you seem to have figured out.

Would it be so wrong if public school student and their families had the choice of classes between creationism science and evolutionary science?

Nick Snover:
heck creationism isn't taught in school but evolution is and which one is followed by atheists and taught in every public school in the country?

Ugh. This is why we can't have nice things.

Teaching evolution is not an attack on Christians, and especially not an attack on religious people in general. It's science. That's what schools are supposed to teach. Creationism is not science. There are plenty of salient examples of poor behavior from atheists to harass or bully religious people on this forum. In fact, I would even go so far as to say there is evidence of moderator bias towarpro-atheism posts on this forum. But the moment you start trying to pass off state-funded schoools not actively taching your beliefs asthough they were facts as equivalent to pushing atheism on you, you've lost the plot. You undermine any crdibility your claim had, and you make anyone who might normally support you look bad by association. Frankly, you look like a troll.

Get over evolution. It's not a threat to you. It's a fact. Facts are good. Learning facts makes the children of a country smart.

Nick Snover:
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Many Atheists can't help but meddle in others business. They constantly try to start stuff like removing the cross at ground zero taking nativity scenes out of small towns, heck creationism isn't taught in school but evolution is and which one is followed by atheists and taught in every public school in the country? I go to church about 4hrs a week how many hours a week do kids go to science class and learn evolution?

Okay, now you just completely lost me.
These are issues of secularization, not of Atheism. Atheists are interested in secularization, but so are many other people. Where I live, almost nobody believes in Creationism. So to answer your question? Christians "follow" evolution, too, just like pretty much everybody else. Your country is an utter anomaly for Western countries in regards to the adherence of Creationism.
Evolution is science, Creationism is not. That's why evolution is taught in science classes.
Now, I'm aware that apparently the USA do not have religious education classes (classes where you learn about religions), but that would be the perfect venue for children to learn about Genesis as well as the creation myths of other religions.
Where Creationism of any kind has absolutely no place, however, is in science classes, taught as fact or a scientific alternative or anything of the sort.

EDIT:

Nick Snover:
Would it be so wrong if public school student and their families had the choice of classes between creationism science and evolutionary science?

Yes, it absolutely would be, because you'd allow public schools to spread misinformation and intentionally dumb down the pupils if they came to believe Creationism to be a scientific alternative to evolution. What you need are, as I said above, RE classes! Comparative religious studies!

Nick Snover:
Would it be so wrong if public school student and their families had the choice of classes between creationism science and evolutionary science?

Yes, because one is not science, the other is. Creationism has not and likely will not earn the same level of merit as evolution. In science merely dissenting with a theory isn't enough, it has to be empirically backed up.

Also, if we're going to teach Christian creationism, then in the interests of fairness it will also be legally required to teach Muslim creationism, Hindu creationism.... (there's that precedent+establishment clause coming into play again)

Skeleon:

Okay, now you just completely lost me.
These are issues of secularization, not of Atheism. Atheists are interested in secularization, but so are many other people.

Actually, I need to append this quote to one of my earlier posts.

In fact, all of the things Nick has posted are not inherently atheistic. I was a secularist long before I dropped Christianity and became an atheist.

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