What if we killed God?

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God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

Has anyone posted this yet?

HardkorSB:

He wasn't all powerful, even in the Bible.
Here's why:

1. It took him 7 days to create everything. If he was all powerful, he would do it instantly.
2. He had to rest on the 7th day. That means that he was tired. Being tired implies that he could run out of power.
3. The most he could do to punish humans is to flood a planet where 2/3 of it's surface is water.
4. In the story of Babel, he was afraid of humans reaching him. Fear implies vulnerability. Plus, that was in the days where we didn't have all the sophisticated weaponry we have today.

You forgot his crippling iron weakness, especially when in the form of a chariot.

Hazy992:
We'd have to then hope we can kill Satan, otherwise we'd be fucked.

Satan's a humanist, I don't think we'd have a majro problem with that guy ;P

As for the OP: Ever heard of the Preacher comics?

~Sylv

He wouldn't be a God if he could die.

Nudu:
God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

I like this post a lot. It raises a great question. Why would we want to kill God?

Magical029:
I would laugh. Because he is supposedly omnipotent. And what he made killed him.
And he knew we would kill him before he made us. He is omniscient, apparently, therefore... So he knowingly killed himself. He knew he would die - he could've intervened. He suicided.

TL;DR
I would laugh. He suicided.

Thanatos Gambit? Wonder what would be behind that door

Reminds me of the later books of the series that the golden compass was in. OT Theroeticly the universe would stop working

I'm pretty sure even if we say God dead a lot of people still wouldn't believe it because it's the devil's work or some crap like that. But I would just laugh at them and do my daily thing.

I'm pretty sure even if we say God dead a lot of people still wouldn't believe it because it's the devil's work or some crap like that. But I would just laugh at them and do my daily thing.

Legiondude:

Magical029:
I would laugh. Because he is supposedly omnipotent. And what he made killed him.
And he knew we would kill him before he made us. He is omniscient, apparently, therefore... So he knowingly killed himself. He knew he would die - he could've intervened. He suicided.

TL;DR
I would laugh. He suicided.

Thanatos Gambit? Wonder what would be behind that door

Uhm...I don't think God would need to manipulate the circumstances of his death to his advantage...because he's supposedly omnipotent.

Of course, this is all pure fantasy as the god of the Bible cannot exist.

That means we won. USA! USA!

chaosyoshimage:
That means we won. USA! USA!

One nation... indivisible... sitting on a throne made of God's bones...
That's how that goes, right?

Okay. I am envisioning this hypothetical scenario.

Well, the first thing I'd do is personally absolve all ties to the organization responsible. Because the OP states that only God died, and His Son and angels are still alive. I've been around enough of TvTropes to know how that goes.

If god is killed then he is not god, so who cares

Katatori-kun:

But it does reveal something about this forum. [...]

Some O. Therguy: Let's talk about my religious beliefs!
Forum: Boo! Quit pushing your beliefs on us! People like you are why there is war in the middle east! All religious people support fascism because Hitler was religious! Stop oppressing the women and gay people that I am deeply concerned about as long as we are talking about religion and not women and gay people!

And so on.

I'm a little surprised you found my silly passing comment worth replying to, but since we're on the subject...

Religion is divisive. This is nothing new. Most religions are intellectually and theologically incompatible with each other (hell, even the individual sects and denominations within religions find stuff to squabble about), and religion and atheism is doubly incompatible.

Every once in a while I see you express sentiments like "the bias on this forum..." or "I'm surprised by the intellectual hypocrisy of a lot of the posters here...", as if you think that the members of a predominantly young, white, left-wing forum should "know better" than to engage in tribalistic "cheerleading", as you put it. Personally, I think that it's completely natural to find yourself in one camp or the other - either you believe A is correct and know B to be false, or vice-versa. The position you take, a kind of militant fence-sitting (if I may describe it so) is the one that surely requires a lot more Orwellian doublethink.

If you'd like some perspective on how "skewed and twisted" the opinions expressed on this forum are, in all seriousness might I suggest that you spend some time on a Christian forum and see how the quality of discussion compares (if you want a real challenge, try a Christian Teens forum, and have the sick-bag on standby).

So, His Dark Materials?
Damn, can't ever stop bringing that series up :/

Orange12345:
If god is killed then he is not god, so who cares

But that does bring up the question, does a god need to be immortal? Or is a god simply mortal in another sense than we are?

It's a rather fascinating question, actually.

Batou667:
Religion is divisive. This is nothing new. Most religions are intellectually and theologically incompatible with each other (hell, even the individual sects and denominations within religions find stuff to squabble about), and religion and atheism is doubly incompatible.

This isn't true though. You're imposing a predominantly Christian/Islamic view on religion that makes assumptions about it that don't apply to all religions. The notion that a religion can be right or wrong or that one's own religion must be defended as the only true religiion is not a universal aspect of religion. Heck, that attitude doesn't even apply to most Christians/Muslims. I happen to know an extremely devout Muslim who is close friends with some very devout Christians. I have a Muslim friend that I talk with every day- often about Islam. Never once has he suggested that I should become Muslim, that my beliefs are wrong, or even challenged my beliefs. His religion is his choice, my beliefs are mine, and we respect each other.

Every once in a while I see you express sentiments like "the bias on this forum..." or "I'm surprised by the intellectual hypocrisy of a lot of the posters here...", as if you think that the members of a predominantly young, white, left-wing forum should "know better" than to engage in tribalistic "cheerleading", as you put it.

The bias is really a separate concern, as I do believe based on moderator action that there is a clear editorial bias that is consistent but maybe not conscious, where "being a jerk" to atheists is judged at a much different standard than "being a jerk" to religious people. I bring it up because frankly, I have had very mixed experiences dealing with the forum moderation directly and airing these concerns publicly is the only way I see to get them addressed.

But the tribalistic cheerleading is an issue that you are right, it is something that comes very naturally to young people. Teenager psychological development practically requires teens to form tribes- it's part of the psychological process of forming an independent personal identity that is defined separately from one's family relationships. This is why cliques form at schools, this is why school sports teams form rivalries with other nearby schools, this is why "jocks vs. nerds" is a theme that practically anyone in the US can relate to. And we know that much of the opposition for religion comes from this sort of tribalistic cheerleading rather than a thoughtful opposition to faith or whatever because we see in this very thread that loads of people here are totally willing to engage in a discussion about a topic that is imaginary- that they do not believe in. This thread does not appear connected with any group opposed by atheists, so even though it is a completely mythological topic suddenly it's a-ok.

The key thing is though, for proper psychological development into educated adulthood, people should eventually move past this tribalism. But unfortunately, a lot of people don't. And religion is one of those issues that some people remain tribal about for the rest of their lives- though obviously we can't say this tribalism comes from religion itself as atheism is not a religion and we see the exact same tribalistic behavior coming from atheistic adults.

So when I call this forum out for tribalistic cheerleading, it's because people need to see that they are opposing groups not because of any behavior that can be objectively generalized across the group, but simply because the group is different from their own. And that in the long run this is not healthy behavior.

Personally, I think that it's completely natural to find yourself in one camp or the other - either you believe A is correct and know B to be false, or vice-versa. The position you take, a kind of militant fence-sitting (if I may describe it so) is the one that surely requires a lot more Orwellian doublethink.

I don't think this is a fair characterization of my position, but "militant fence-sitting" is such an awesome turn-of-phrase that I'm going to encourage you to continue to use it to describe me. ;)

I'm absolutely not opposing people being members of groups, nor am I opposing people having opinions about other groups. There are a lot of things about a lot of religions I reject (obviously, as I'm not a member of any religion.) What I'm calling for is some basic respect. A religion does not become false just because you aren't a member of it. Just because you dislike the behavior of certain people who happen to be members of a religion does not mean that that behavior is a trait of all members of that religion nor caused by that religion, nor can you generalize it to religion as a whole.

On this forum a Christian can propose that atheists lack morals and they will be shouted down by at least 10 people within the day. And yet any of those same atheists can claim that all religious people oppose free will or free thought and it will be remarkable if the claim even gets a single comment. This goes beyond simple pride in one's own group, this is intellectual bias that leads to shoddy thinking.

If you'd like some perspective on how "skewed and twisted" the opinions expressed on this forum are, in all seriousness might I suggest that you spend some time on a Christian forum and see how the quality of discussion compares (if you want a real challenge, try a Christian Teens forum, and have the sick-bag on standby).

There are two big problems I have with this: First of all, a Christian forum is explicitly marked as a forum for Christians who want to discuss things as they relate to Christianity. This is not an atheist forum. This is not a forum only for people who want to discuss atheism. This is a forum for any political/religious discussion. So setting up a Christian forum as a contrast is not a reasonable argument. It's like claiming that Fox News isn't biased and throwing up North Korea's state-run news as a counter example. Fox News isn't supposed to be biased, so it should be compared against other news sources that aren't supposed to be biased.

The other problem is, so what if there are other forums that are worse? I don't know about you guys, but I don't come here because most other forums on the internet are slightly more shit. I come here because I am a fan of Yahtzee and LRR and so it makes sense for me to be part of the community on this site. And since I enjoy politics and religion, this forum is a decent fit for me. A community shouldn't aspire to be the least-obnoxious group in town, they should aspire to be something they can be proud of.

Katatori-kun:
-snip-

After writing my previous post, I realised that what I wrote might easily have been misconstrued as a personal attack. It wasn't meant that way and I'm grateful that you didn't take it as such.

I suppose what prompted me to post was the dawning realisation that a lot of your posts aren't straight-up argument but meta-arguments - you don't take issue with the content of people's posts, so much as the way they present their reasoning. That struck me as a little odd - after all, a parrot who has been trained to squawk "E equals mc squared" is every bit as objectively correct as Einstein, although the thought processes behind the statement are by no means equal in value.

I hear what you're saying about tribalism, although I'm not sure I agree with your verdict that it's a result of immature thinking - look at the people who devote themselves to the support of a particular sports club or political party, for example. Or, for that matter, their religion. Society is a quite tolerant of religious inflexibility of thought - we don't make any expectation of the average churchgoer to actively reassess their faith on a regular basis, let alone for them to consider the merit of other religious systems. Why then is the average atheist expected to be constantly introspecting; perpetually educating themselves on every esoteric cult, juju and denomination lest they get their facts wrong; eternally willing to read every last scripture or sura that gets waved under their noses or else be branded closed-minded and bigotted?

I actually quite like doing my homework on religious matters but that's more for my own satisfaction rather than any genuine possibility of having my stance on religion or its legitimacy changed. A lot of people, however, have come to the conclusion that they're atheist and they're pretty happy with that. And why not? What's fundamentally wrong with being a dogmatic atheist? Chances are they're right, after all.

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