These are the kind of people who would have stood by Joseph McCarthy to the very end. Hell, they probably think his ideas weren't too bad. | |
It will be people like this that will be the death of us all someday. I am of the camp that reason, while it is a tool and subject to its user's limitations and therefore not the 'key' to understanding things as it is, it is still very much a useful tool for our daily interactions and understanding, and should be used wherever possible. This claim of theirs is simply not rational, it's madness. I really do not understand how one can come to such insane conclusions, or for what reason. | |
I know the people behind that party were ridiculous, but this is beyond that, this is just dangerously mad. What if tomorrow it's not a bus line but a person of group of people that incurs their wrath? If they're this far gone already, no doubt they could justify crimes against people for their political goals as well. | |
I would say that calling them John Birchers (which if they had membership cards in their wallets, I wouldn't be surprised at all) is more apt. It's just a pet peeve of mine how McCarthey's influence is vastly overstated. | |
Sometimes it's better not to ask. Faith in humanity and all that. | |
Well, I guess assuming they had a somewhat realistic view of Cold War Culture was too much. And they made my reply to Lilani look dumb. Those Bastards. | |
I think I'll let Spiderman take it from here... | |
And he wants to end the Methodist church, too? What a fruitcake.
I don't really know enough about John Birchers to know, but I just wanted you to know that made me smile :-) | |
Well they were an ultra-conservative faux-grassroots movement (sounds familiar eh?) that was started early on in the cold war. They're still around today but I don't think they're nearly as popular. They definitely were at the forefront of the modern american conservatism which developed during the Cold War and is what we think of as "conservative" today. McCarthy is granted historical troll status because of the term McCarthyism, which was meant as a somewhat satirical term in the first place. He didn't create an atmosphere of fear, he just took advantage of it, got his 15 minutes of fame, and then everyone realized he was kinda crazy and he fell from grace nearly as quickly as he rose to power in the mass public eye. All in a very short span of time. He was a mere product of his culture, not some authority over it. It's like a more political version of how Mick Jagger is getting a second wave of fame just because his name rhymes with "swagger". Sorry for the tangential history lesson but I love this stuff. | |
apparently there is something going around that says the aim of agenda 21 eventually is to remove private ownership of property and vehicles and that the eventual aim is to move people into high density new cities based on the masdar initative in dubai. thats what they are protesting about and the conspiracy. ive done research myself and personally i cant find anything about removing property rights. it merely goes for encouraging people to use the most sustainable options. honestly i think its an example of an urban legend gotten way out of hand and people are just running with it without researching themselves | |
You went to the trouble of researching that? I'm impressed, I'd probably just laugh it off out of hand. | |
i hadnt heard of the agenda 21 and i was curious is this document had anything that could come remotely close to what they were claiming. plus i also look into urban legends. you can usually bust them once you start looking | |
True, but that usually leads me to not bother. :) | |
If anyone thinks this is novel or unusual, I recommend watching Louis Theroux's Weird Weekends episode "Survivalists" (the first 10 minutes of which is available on YouTube). The paranoid conspiracy belief that the UN is planning to destroy the American way of life has been going on for decades (Theroux's Survivalists documentary was aired way back in 1998.) My belief is that ultimately this has nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with the failure of the American Dream and the lack of personal meaning that can come from America's real religion- no, not Christianity, the worship of the invisible hand of the Free Market[1]. The religion is that the free market perfectly judges what companies, laborers, and products deserve. If you have more money, you earned that money by providing the Market[2] what the Market[3] desires. If you have less money, you deserve to have less because you have failed to provide the Market[4] the products/service(/sacrifices) it demands. Through capitalism, we supposedly have a perfect judge of all forms of quality, be they design, efficiency, or moral. But what of the people who begin to see through the droning of Market's[5] priests? What of the people who spend their lives toiling in Market's[6] name only come to the realization that they will never achieve the glory of real success? The day you realize that you are not innovative, efficient, or desirable enough to earn Market's[7] blessing, what do you do? Where do you find your source of self-worth? Many find it by adopting a new religion. Luckily, Market[8] is not a jealous god. Market[9] is content to share people's worship with other gods- even to let worshipers claim that other gods come before it, only so long as in the worshipers heart of hearts they keep MMMN as the foremost deity. This is why so many Americans turn to Christianity and so readily accept prosperity theology despite the doctrine having nearly zero support from the words of Jesus. But for some, Christianity isn't enough to give them meaning or value. Because Christianity promises an apocalypse, but who knows when that will be? And what good is salvation after death when you are desperate for a belief that gives you value now. And that's where the UN comes in. By constructing a mythology that places the UN as a supervillain trying to destroy them personally, these people suddenly have the value they crave. Because if the UN wants to destroy you, you must have some value to be worth destroying. Watch the people in Survivalists- every one of them is convinced that at some point in the near future UN patrol cars are going to show up on their property looking for them personally. And each of these people in their own way, whether that is learning how to shoot, building houses out of straw, or by selling underground WMD shelters, has constructed a mythology where their special expertise is key to surviving the Tribulations they have just decided are coming. And the Tea Party has shown us that this mythology has deep resonance for many Americans. They can tweak the details to fit current events, perhaps substituting for the UN a black President of the USA, and still create an imaginary world where they are the central heroes in the oncoming crisis. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr3shfKZuIs MMMN, our Heavenly Market[10], has been withholding His blessings from most of us for years now. People are desperate and insecure, and are watching the blessings of MMMN move to strange foreign people with strange foreign ways. There is also a demographic shift rocking the foundations of what many Americans thought was the American way. The older generation grew up in a country where the norm for middle class success was being a straight, white Christian with a high school diploma who worked hard in a factory or skilled trade. Now these people have to face their children knowing that living as their parents did is a recipe for poverty, and all the things they took for granted about who they were seem to be fading away. Women can be soldiers. Gays can get married. A black man is President. Girls are squealing in excitement over metrosexual asian guys. The world has gone mad today and good's bad today, and black's white today, and day's night today, and that gent today you gave a cent today once had several chateaux. I predict these conspiracies are going to spread, not go away. There is no amount of education that can be done to drive these conspiracy theories away. The only hope is either to just wait many long years until the hold-outs from the old demographic die off, or to found a new religion/philosophy where people are taught that their value can be found not in the money they they get from the old gods or in apocalyptic showdowns with cosmic enemies, but in simply being good to each other and helping those in need. Anyone want to be a prophet? The pay is shit and you might get crucified, but at least you get to work with people. | |
Heh, nicely put...and I'd not disagree with you too strongly. Personally I'd say it's not so much about feeling valued as it is wanting to fight the social changes, which you can do if they take the form of Black Helicopters coming to get you. But, not having had the opportunity to crack open a survivalists skull and consume their brains, I can't really be sure what they are thinking. | |
Oh, I'd definitely agree this is a factor. You can imagine shooting at a black helicopter. You can't shoot demographic shift. I see a lot of this in my father. He grew up in a time where semi-skilled manual labor was the first step up a ladder that led to having one's own small-town company and becoming prosperous. He didn't get or need an academic degree. Now his kids all have not only college degrees, but are looking at or already engaged in post-graduate studies. We can't even talk to him about the things we study because the founding principles of our fields go over his head. It's not that he's dumb at all, it's just that he just isn't informed about the sciences. And on one hand, he is extremely proud that we have been able to achieve things that he never had the chance to do. On the other hand though, I think he's pretty insecure about how our lives have turned out so different, and how what worked for him would be disastrous for us. And he's not a hard-core survivalist, but he does come out with conspiracy theories like these from time to time. | |
Godsdamn it. This really pisses me off. It's one thing to say gays are abominations, and shit, but saying stuff like this is a threat to the world. We need to get rid of them! They are going to destroy the fucking world just to spite normal people. | |
Maybe someone can explain this to me, because I simply can't comprehend it, but... Okay, I get that some people may doubt global warming and man made climate change etc. Regardless of that, the way you tackle the problem (real or otherwise) is by the exact same methods you deal with the issue of our looming energy crisis. So you can't complain about wind farms or solar panels really, because how else do you expect to eventually have energy? I just don't get what people think we're going to do when oil runs out. Use pixie dust? Power things by good will and hope? These people are living in cloud cuckoo land, and obviously have never approached the notion that our Earth and its resource are finite and highly fragile. | |
Ummm.... let's not replicate the right's rhetoric of personal destruction, shall we? While you aren't of course outright advocating violence against Tea Partiers, this kind of talk really is only a stone's throw away from expressions like, "Second Amendment Solutions". The Tea Party is not going to destroy the entire world. That's the same sort of apocalyptic fear-mongering that gives these conspiracy theorists their strength. Even though I predicted that these conspiracy theories would spread before they diminish, the actual theories themselves aren't that much of a threat. It's spineless politicians who would court the Tea Party just to keep their jobs who are the real threat, and these people need to be voted out of office. The fact is, the world will move on without America if America doesn't choose to keep up with the times, and America will move on without the Tea Party if the Tea Party doesn't choose to keep up. If some loser in rural Nebraska thinks buying an incandescent light instead of a CFL is going to stop the secret UN gestapo from invading his house, we really shouldn't care. Just like how we really shouldn't care if a racist lunatic out there thinks Obama isn't really American or that 9/11 was an inside job. It's the politicians who court them who are the problem, and these politicians need to be held accountable for their actions. And don't worry, the UN hasn't eliminated our method of holding them accountable. For the moment, we are still allowed to vote. | |
There is some merit and justification for these peoples fears. Several of the "Green" bills have limited property rights in the past, most notably the Endangered Species Act. If even ONE example of any of the listed species of the act on an undeveloped property you spent thousands of dollars on, your dreams of building that home have gone bye bye. Extensions to existing houses are also need direct approval, even if the animal in question is living on the side of the house your NOT going to put an extension on. A large chunk of the American logging industry was put to a halt by an endangered species of Wobbler, who not only lived in the woodlands they were planning on cutting down, but the forests the logging companies planted so they would have their own sustainable supply of wood to cut. Our country (which has some of the largest amounts of forests in the world) is now a net wood importer. I am not saying that there is some "global U.N. conspiracy," (they are FAR too incompetent to pull that off) I am just saying the fears are not unjustified, and one shouldn't just blindly believe good intentions from the government. | |
That has more to do with an unsustainable high use of cheap wood than with environmental protection laws. Houses for instance could also be built in stone. Especially in places that are often hit by tornados it makes sense to build storm-proof. It actually struck me as weird that both in river deltas (lots of clay for bricks) and mountainous regions (lots of stone close by) all that I saw in the US and Canada too were wooden houses. Go to a harbour, what are the piers made of? Wood. It's a choice of materials fuelled by a policy of unlimited strip-mining of resources in the past, that's become unsustainable in the present. You've seen the same with American cars: design has always been based on the premise of the US providing unlimited cheap fuel, so mileage was no consideration. Some olders American cars and SUVs have a milage comparable with a bloody armoured vehicle. Then oil became more scarce, prices went up, and suddenly there was a problem. A problem that could've been prevented by less thinking in 'what is the most I can possibly use up without immediate problems?' and more in 'what is a prudent choice on the long term?'. So all in all that's not really an argument against such bills. Not suggestion that's your opinion, but if a use of a resource demands gaining it at any cost without any regulations, there's something wrong with how it's used, and not with how it's production is being regulated. | |
a form of sustainable building ive been looking into is earthbag building.. and its exactly that earth in a bag or roll and used like bricks.. when they tested it for durability well the house outlasted tests better than the testing equipment | |
I was just noting that Green bills have, IN THE PAST, limited property rights, even when the directed goal of the bill in question. The point of the ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT was to protect species, it has nothing to do with logging industry, and it has limited what people have done with their property. THAT was my point, that Green bills have, in the past, messed with property rights. Any arguments over the logging industry is a tangentially related side issue. | |
You know, every once in a while, when I've read or reread a particularly inspiring sci-fi novel, or have seen an encouraging new piece of research, I entertain the idea of starting a political party, one dedicated to moving us towards a sustainable society inhabiting arcologies, where scarcity-reducing technology allows everyone to have what we today consider an "upper-middle class" lifestyle, where fusion and efficient renewables make energy essentially free, where technology makes education not only available to all but entirely ubiquitous. Then I remember that I live in a world inhabited mainly by people who are bugfuck-retarded enough to believe shit like this. People who would rather cling to an outmoded and intangible concept of "property rights" than actually improve their lives and the lives of others in a definite way. Politicians who pander to such retardation, because even though the vocal minority are a minority, the main base of humanity is just stupid enough to think "hmm, well maybe there's something to it" if the minority is vocal enough often enough. If only..... | |
So conserving energy is a "plot" now? What? | |
Eh, there is an evil conspiracy to have Canada, Mexico and the USA adopt the same currency. I bet they get laughed at by the lizard people and the NWO. | |
Presenting it like that isn't entirely truthfull. The way you're painting the two as opposites and mutually exclusive, it's like one can either be some sort of eco-communist, or an American ultra-right conservative. Plus that 'sustainable' isn't a magic word that fixes everything. Some of those technologies are phohibitively expensive. Spend all your money for sustainability on that and you'll end up not making much of an impact, and flat broke. For instance you have this lobby against nuclear energy that claims to be green, while nuclear power is the only type of zero emission power generation that has sufficient power and is economically viable. So basically the anti-nuclear lobby is protesting for more greenhouse gas emissions for power generation and against the environment. | |
For all we know it could well be a UN plot... A UN plot to avoid the human race ripping itself apart in 50-70 years time when a resource war begging due to the drastically high number of humans, and the drastic lack of oil for cars, Uranium for Nuclear power stations and coal for power plants... UN plot, could be(no evidence, purely one of many courses of logical possibility)... No? Not to prevent 0ur own destruction? Its to drive us towards cities... you fucking lunatics xD | |
Yeah the Tea Party has never been very good at putting perspective on anything at a global scale. Hell, their whole foreign policy is pretty much good old fashioned isolationism, us versus the world mentality. | |
Same ol' same ol'. The reason this country is in the crapper? American conservatives haven't adapted to the changing world. Overpopulation, scarcer, more expensive resources, capitalist pressures, etc. They deride as communist or fascist every institution or initiative designed to restore or promote basic quality of life for all. They conflate liberty with the freedom to oppress or take way more than your fair share. They're stupid, short-sighted, and selfish. They're scum. | |
Well, I suppose it kind of is, but that's resting on the assumption that the UN is a monolithic executive body, which it famously isn't. Still, it's present on UN agenda after UN agenda and despite the USA's best efforts is being gradually adopted by the international community not because they want to destroy TEH AMERICUN WAI UV LAEF but because it makes sense to do things more efficiently. That's a fucking core of the market, but because it's being decided intelligently rather than by aggregate decision making it's perplexingly dismissed as 'Communist centralisation' and doomed to failure. It may well be a plot, but it's hardly possessed of the secrecy implied by a conspiracy. This ironic use of 'Freedom' as an obstacle to change has got to stop. It's become too trite a buzz-word for powerful interest groups interested in preserving the status quo. | |
Well here's the deal. Agenda 21 and legislation like it, in a clear and non-insidious nature, establish that the overall environment is of higher priority than the individual's right to do whatever the hell they want, even if the harm to anyone is immeasurably small. Nobody here is going recognize this out of this case because they all agree with the positions being propogated, but one could argue that it is inherently subversive to democracy to make legislation that uses tax money to influence the habits and positions of the citizens. And it is a doubly legitimate concern when the order is being handed down from an organization that has no accountability to the people whatsoever. Of course, taking that concern, legitimate or not, and protesting local efforts makes about as much sense as the WBC thinking we're all going to hell so they protest a child's funeral. There's a huge disconnect. | |
*slow clap* But holy shit (wo)man, do you mind if I copy parts of this for later use when the need arises? Powerful stuff. On Topic: blah disgraceful blah. But let's not go overboard with the derision. | |
Well my comment was more of a joke but I glad that a more thoughtful post arose :) | |
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/04/us/activists-fight-green-projects-seeing-un-plot.html?pagewanted=all&src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB
Seriously? I thought I was used to american right-wing paranoia, but this is just...silly.