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I am confused as to what you really want. Do you want us to answer that final question in your post(there isn't one)? Do you want us to give you ideas on how to convert your father(you can't)? Or do you want us to give you ideas on how to make them stop bothering you?
My smart-ass answer was always something to the effect of "Well from what I understand we are all destined to burn in Hell for eternity just by being born because of this 'original sin'. The way I see is I can't get more punishment by sinning more so I may as well enjoy the ride down". | |
Are you looking for answers to come back at your parents with? I'd just not bother. "Death is better than living in sin" is not something said by someone given to reason. After all, it doesn't jive with the whole redemption thing. Just ignore 'em. | |
I think he's trying to draw a comparison to God's, shall we say, more genocidal tendencies in the Old Testament and a human application of the same principles. As for me, I can't say I'm totally against the "burn it all" approach. Every once and a while, the thought enters my mind that the human race could use a good 90-95% wipe out event. Then I remember that it is easier to harness the power of stupid people than to try to kill them all. | |
I got that, but I want to know why he wants to do that. There really isn't logic behind genocide and random murders. There may be rationalizations and things of the like, but there isn't logic. OP seems to be looking for logic where none belongs, and it seems to me OP knows that. I just get the feeling that if we debate hypotheses around why genocide is ok during the old testament, OP won't get the answer he is looking for. | |
My father says proof of god is the trees/nature and the fact we are alive... My father is more hard headed in his beliefs than the hardest substance known to man. -_- | |
I have never fully understood this part. I have always viewed this as someone getting backed into a corner and saying "A wizard did it". Rather I have never understood how people can be satisfied with that answer. Ask him to elaborate on that. While you are at it, tell him the proof of Cell Theory is also in the trees.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." | |
I'd agree that the Divine exist and I think you should look at Deism before you completely dismiss the possibility of the Divine. | |
I'd do option A... With ants though that would require my kettle to get some boiling water to boil the nest and its inhabitants off of the face of the earth. So what if there is a worm down there? I want results now, not next year. ----------------- I think the key is I want this shit to happen now! I don't want survivors to start another nest. I don't want one ant to carry out an egg and find it to be a queen... Nuke 'em. As for God? Well I am a "Christian" the "" representing that I totally disregard all of the parts of the Bible not about Jesus which is all of the old testament, and everything after 43 days after he was crucified. Also I believe there could be a God... I live my life by the principle of be good, not a prick, which is the brief summary of Jesus's teachings. If you want your parents off your back then say you are a "Christian" which is basically a Christian with the bullshit hypocritical parts of the bible cut out. | |
and why do you think the divine exists, ironically you say you should look at deism before dismissing the divine, yet one of the main points to deism is that although our universe was created by a powerful being, that being does not however intervene, s/he just lets the universe run its course. by definition nothing can be divine in the beliefs of deists because everything must follow the laws of the universe as it was created, the divine of course being things that occur outside of those laws. of course deism has exactly the same amount of evidence as any religion. the only thing going for deism is that because they have not gone with the crazy stories and have a non intervening god they are very close to one popular sci-fi theory that is at least more plausible then "god did it", even if it has the same amount of evidence (well technically it has more evidence in that we exist, therefore it is possible other intelligent life exists) that theory being that our universe was created by an extremely advance alien race, of course where deism goes wrong is the assertion that this = god, when if this was the case they would be no more god like then you or me, they would just be unimaginably advanced in science and technology | |
Our house has a mouse infestation and does actually need to be nuked..but if it were ants, I'd choose (a). If you're looking for good counterarguments, keep pressing how convenient it is that out of the thousands of religions there are that say they are the only true one, your parents just happened to be born into Christianity and in comparison know very little about the other ones. | |
Forgive me for this generalization, but I see too many Escapist feel that because they don't like theism/religion, then they are atheist. This means that they didn't consider Deism at all. As for your evidence comment, atheist, deist, and theist all seem to lack proof to support their stance. | |
When I was 18 I met a baba (holy man) in the highlands of Nepal that cut an inch off his arm each year to prove his minds supremacy over his body. When I met him he was past the elbow and half way to his shoulder. He had a garden by the river and sat there smoking pot. You can not argue rationally with people like that. So I freaked him out by giving him a menthol cigarette.. | |
staying out of the religious debate. considering the ants i get in my backyard.. nuking them from orbit is the only solution.. or diging up the nest, pouring petrol over it and setting it on fire. i live in autralia and we get jackjumpers and inchman or bulldog ants.. google them and see why fire is the only choice | |
Yeah, except you can undo that original sin by worshiping God. Thats kinda the point. Better luck next time. | |
If you really want a confronting answer, ask him if he's never sinned, not even in his mind, because even thinking of sin is sin. Now obviously that's not possible. Humans are wired to occasionally think of having sex for instance. So if they truly mean that being dead is better than sinning, everybody should be dead and their idea is stuck in an unsolvable contradiction. | |
Not sure if people had pointed this out but prior to the destruction of those two cities Abraham convinced God to spare the cities if as few as 10 people (Abraham works his way down from 50 ten people at a time, basically haggling with God) who are righteous could be found. Since the cities were destroyed it would mean that in all the city not even 10 righteous people could be found so the cities were destroyed though Lot and his family were told to flee and not look back ("What happens if we look back?" "Do you like salt?" "Not really, why do you ask?" "No reason.") So you see, you dont just have a problem with one ant but with a whole ant city. | |
Flippantly, I'd ask if the ants are communist? Better dead than red, have to destroy a village to save it etc. More seriously, that viewpoint was one that had a lot of support not that long ago. Admittedly by people who tended to live way on the other side of the world to the sharp end, many of them would be less happy with the idea if they were in the firing line, I daresay. | |
Naturally, I'd first introduce the ant colony to my garden (which I spent 6 days carefully landscaping). I'd then place a small cube of sugar near the nest with "Do not eat" written on the back of a postage stamp. When the ants disregarded the sign and ate the sugar, I'd cast them out of the garden and consider all ants from that point on as inherently evil, even their unborn future offspring. To solve this situation, I'd dress myself up in an ant suit, go and live among them, and then after 33 years have myself crucified by a neighbouring colony of ants (who didn't believe in me, although I created them too). This would absolve the ants of the sin that wouldn't have existed in the first place if I hadn't been a dick with the sugar cube, and from then onwards the ant colony would tell stories of how much I loved them and how they should follow my example of pacifism and meekness. In fact, they'd wage long and bloody wars to demonstrate their superior pacifism and meekness to ants who didn't believe in me. I'd just kind of watch over them the whole time, occasionally pouring water over the nest or kicking it, as that would provide the ants with the opportunity to rebuild and feel a sense of shared comradeship as they searched for the drowned and buried corpses of their friends and family, further proving what a nice guy I am. | |
Wasn't the idea of Sodom and Gomorrah that there were no innocent people? And from the flood story. "The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time." The idea is that everyone destroyed was evil so your question is sort of ill-concieved. | |
My advice: It doesn't sound like you really want your parents off your back. It sounds like you're in it to win it. It doesn't sound like you want peace, it sounds like you want to defeat family members who think differently than you. That if you bring in some impeccable logic from other people on the forum that you'll magically change all their minds and get them on your side. That's not how it works. And the best you can hope for with that approach is to alienate yourself from your family. If you don't believe in Christianity, you don't believe in Christianity. The mythology and fluff shouldn't really enter into it. And the thing is, this is your family. This isn't some random door-to-door street preacher. You're probably going to have contact with these people for the rest of your life. You need to not let a petty little think like a difference in religion come between you. And the key to that is respect. So they believe something you don't. You need to respect them anyway. And they need to respect you. And to do that you'll have to stop attacking their beliefs. So you don't believe them. That doesn't really matter. | |
Don't even bother trying to reason with him. He has already proven that he is willing to associate a "fact" that has been proven by a very large book with no actual basis in reality with the truth. Ergo, he has proven himself to be incapable of the scientific method, and as such, undeserving of the time it takes to argue with him. For fun bonus points time, ask him why god hasn't issued a second flood since then for any number of atrocities. Such as the soviet union, ot the crusades (children's crusade holds a special place in my heart), or the third riech, or Lybia, or China, or North Korea. For super fun bonus times, point how the nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were similar to the flood, and resulted in a fuckton of innocent people dying. Point out afterwards how many innocent people likely got caught up in god's little hissy fit. Odds are he'll just throw a hissy fit and tell you "HURR GOD IS RIGHT." For people like him, the only thing to do is smile, nod, and discard anything they attempt to claim as scientific fact. | |
which I always countered with "Well, people can't seem to agree with god is the right one, so it sounds like I am burning in Hell no matter what".
My step mom is always on me about being an atheist. I always ask her if she went into holy places while she was "unclean" and if she ever sacrificed those doves. | |
Nuke them all from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. I hate ants. I hate the fuck out of them. Anyway, hope that answers your question. You should really call an exterminator though, but it's hard to find one with good nuclear weaponry. Almost all of the ones I've talked to have old school Soviet nukes. | |
You have to take into account the Jehovah could and will bring back anyone innocent once he rids the world of sin all together. So those children that died God will remember and bring them back on a perfect world were they wouldnt subject to the gross things that were going on there. Remember too that this place was bad that it wasent that the people were sleeping with the sex but that it was more like rape because when the two angles should up that is what they wanted to do to them without any questions. | |
So are you just unaware that the Bible doesn't have a monopoly on the concept of G-d, or...? | |
Nope. It definitely sounds like he's taking part in the mutual antagonism. Otherwise, the question would be, "How can I get my parents to accept me being atheist?" Not, "How can I poke holes in everything my loved ones believe in?" | |
A few problems with your thing" 1) Solution B still has the chance to hurt other living creatures, including plants, other animals, and people. 2) How do we know God's Version of B isn't our version of A? He might have chosen B! 3) Regardless, it ends up killing people, so you can claim god is a jerk either way. Thus, there is no reason to pick either. 4) If the Ants equal the people of the Old Testament, then imagine the ants are Stormtroopers meet those Hillbilly's from that one movie where they raped a guy meet zombies, meet twilight vampires. Who wouldn't want to nuke those things?! and 5) Your parents are clearly biased and will probably not budge from their decision. My parents are full blown Republicans, while I am a Patriot to the bitter end. I constantly get into arguments with my mother while I try to defend Obama, and I'm a Libertarian Republican (A realistic Libertarian, not an Idealistic One, so don't insult me please). You can't always change people's minds. | |
i am gonna go with option c and eradicate all ants. like every single one so they will no longer cause problems ever and the world be at peace. | |
If you read the S&G story you will see that god said he would save the entire city if there were just a handful of good people (10). God, who could see into everyone's heart, said there was only one good person, so he saved that one person and their family. Presumably that means there were no innocent humans there. As for the animals, I can't recall, does it say they all died? Now, flood time... the god of the Torah had a temper. He overreacted. (Alternatively some believe that all mankind had become evil, a mirror to the S&G story). That is of course if you believe the story is literal. The majority believe that story to be an alegory, which is why versions of it appear in unconnected religions around the world. | |
NUKE THE ANTS!!! ERADICATE THEM! EXTERMINATE! | |
OH GODS I FORGOT ABOUT THE RADIATION I FORGOT ABOUT THE RADIATION AHHHHH! The only way to protect myself is to nuke MYSELF! I will be given extreme powers with which to combat the ant hordes! | |
Mercy is always a better choice then justice, as it give the chance for rehabilitation. | |
I would agree with you, if logic actually worked against people who are so set in their ways that nothing can budge them. But in this case it's an unstoppable force going up against an immovable wall. So, honestly? Harmony is the best you're gonna get. | |
Mmph. Let me clarify. "]
I did not, in any way, intend to suggest that all religious people are thickheaded extremists. And there's a subtle difference in what the OP is saying. He's not saying "How can I explain to them what I am?" He's saying "How can I prove what they're saying is stupid?" Using normal (read, unresearched) logic based soley off of rationalization just doesn't cut it nowadays. In my experience, either you print off evidence of your points, or you hit the infinite wall which is "Because God Did It", and logic can't debate that. EDIT: Also, I just noticed. Welcome to the Escapist! :D | |
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You have an ant problem in your backyard. How do you solve it?
Do you A: Nuke the area? or B: Make it where the ants cant breed anymore.
Option A, is basically going to destroy everyting including every innocent person and animal.
Option B, will kill only the ants while not killing any innocent people or animals.
Im pretty certain most sensible people will have chosen option B. Then i must ask how people can worship the christian god? My parents wont leave me alone over the fact i dont believe in god.
I asked why god saw fit to kill all the children in sodom, gemorra, and destroyed the world with a flood? my father's answer was that death was better than living in sin.
So can someone explain why god decided to go destroy everything route?
Edit: Can someone explain gods reasoning for going the kill all route instead of doing something more intelligant than hulk smash?
Ive had a long day.