It seems that no one is more outspoken about these things than the Church. What I just don't get though is what either of those things have to do with the story of how God created Man and Earth, nor what they have to do with any of the core moralities that Christianity or any religion for that matter attempts to teach us.

Note, Athiest, but with a pretty keen understanding of the faith (parents still made me go to church for a long time)

God doesn't like X=X is bad. Obviously. It's not a matter of the story behind the bible.

Well, it says in the bible you have to murder all homosexual men you ever see... Plus of course it's different, and thus evil and ripe for bloody extermination according to the primitive religious mind. Nowadays we kind of don't like bloodbaths like that any more, so hating homosexuals is a good replacement if you happen to be a bigoted idiot. That part makes sense even if I'm strongly opposed to all of it.

As for birth control, I don't get that either. It's based on some vague verse with agricultural advice where it says not to throw seeds onto rocky soil because it won't grow, and someone, somehow, applied that to birth control.

No idea where the birth control thing came in. No verse in the bible against that, from what I remember.

As for the homosexuality thing, there are like 2-3 verse in the bible that can be interpreted as saying "God does not like homosexual sex". Pretty much it.

Hokay, atheist "know-Your-enemy"-type of knowledge here. Also, arguing from the bible, because everyone knows religion = christianity (and on a more serious note, I dunno what the other religions say about it, 's all):

Birth control, especially mechanical BC like condoms, is at least theoretically on the same level as masturbation. I guess You could extend that to all forms of birth control, if You argue it's all "wasted seed". Can't quote the exact passage here, but I think it's in the bible somewhere around the story of Onan.

Then there's the conflict of "sex is eeevil" and "be fruitful and multiply". It's usually resolved with "Sex is okay only if it's for procreation". Hence, sex with birth control = evil.

As for homosexuality, uh... cherry-picking Leviticus, I guess?

But I have the feeling You know that already.

~Sylv

Tree man:

TheDarkEricDraven:
God doesn't like X=X is bad. Obviously. It's not a matter of the story behind the bible.

Is it bad because God doesn't like it, or does God not like it because it's bad.

Both. Whatever God thinks is good is good and whatever God thinks is bad is bad. He's the ultimate authority to a lot of people. A bit hypocritical of me to criticize that, because I'm the same with my gods, but they aren't as arbitrary.

Sylvine:
As for homosexuality, uh... cherry-picking Leviticus, I guess?

I find this really fascinating. Usually when I see the "cherry-picking" argument, it's in a negative way towards Christians who are in the camp of "there are a few things the Bible explicitly says to 'deplore,' but Jesus taught only love and kindness regardless of all that so perhaps we should focus more on being nice and less on hating people" (like myself), and because they choose to follow the better lessons of the Bible rather than following everything verbatim they are detestable and hypocritical cherry-pickers. But here you are, calling the homophobes themselves the cherry-pickers. I just...thank you.

As for the rest...well I think everyone else has pretty much covered it, especially Drawde up there. It's just a matter of people taking things from the Bible exactly as they read them with no further thought, discussion, or prayer on what exactly they mean. Then a number of them further compound the error by saying not only should Christians think this way, but EVERYBODY under the letter of the law. Because that is exactly how Jesus spread the word--by conquering lands, gaining dominance, and forcing his ideals on the heathen gentiles through laws and regulations.

This makes absolutely no sense to me when it comes to homosexuality, but I can sort of see why they'd want to make it law with birth control and abortion. They see it as taking a life, the same as murder. So for them it's quite an urgent matter. Still no excuse for posing it on other people in my opinion, but there will always be those people out there who use their God as a reason to not think.

Drawde:
"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Of course, Leviticus really does miss one very small, but very crucial aspect here: it is not possible for two men to have vaginal intercourse with each other.

Needless to say, it's a pretty silly argument.

Heart of Darkness:

Drawde:
"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Of course, Leviticus really does miss one very small, but very crucial aspect here: it is not possible for two men to have vaginal intercourse with each other.

Needless to say, it's a pretty silly argument.

Also, it's apparently fine for two men to do it standing up.

Edit: oops. Varies by translation, I guess.

Nothing to do with religion per se, but with the society from the time when a certain religion imposed laws on birth control or expressed negativity towards homosexuality.

When the Abrahamic religions were formed, society was at the constant threat of extinction. You could be a small tribe and you could die at any given moment, be it from a neighbouring tribe, natural disaster, lack of food, wild animals or whatever you can think of. Both birth control and homosexuality (and masturbation) do not produce children, therefore, if you do not produce children, you are an undesirable member of that society. All members of the group must focus on getting as much children possible, because a lot of kids died at childbirth and during first 5 years of their life. Also, much workforce was needed in order to sustain the society. Anyone "wasting" their time and having sex for fun without the possibility of getting children was immediately marked as someone not helping the community, or even worse, working against the community. Thus, people invented laws that forbid sexual intercourse that would not yield children. Very simple, really.

We can extend that to Christianity specifically by saying that they needed a lot of children in order to spread their religion. Religion was inheritable and Christianity was only a small sect at the beginning, so early Christians also needed laws that forbid "fruitless" sex in order to grow as a group and gain importance.

In short, religious laws reflect the state of society at the time when the said laws were made. Is it necessary in today's world? No. But traditions are traditions, especially when people are convinced those laws descended upon Earth from God himself.

Captcha: rsarybru prayer. Seems fitting. The "prayer" part at least.

See Spot Run:

Heart of Darkness:

Drawde:
"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Of course, Leviticus really does miss one very small, but very crucial aspect here: it is not possible for two men to have vaginal intercourse with each other.

Needless to say, it's a pretty silly argument.

Also, it's apparently fine for two men to do it standing up.

Edit: oops. Varies by translation, I guess.

If you're talking about translations of the Bible, then yes. Part of the reason why it's silly to base laws on an incredibly old set of religious documents is due to the fact that different versions have different translations. Also, since the documents have been translated into several languages subsequently, and that not all phrasings are able to be accurately mapped from one language to another. This also doesn't take into account the translators, uh, "translating" out the parts of said religious texts that don't abide to their moral and ethical code.

Unless you mean translation as translating my post, then disregard everything I said up there.

Drawde:
Genesis 38
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Sleep with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death also.

So, the Bible teaches us that homosexuals and those who spill semen should be put do death. Thank you, Bible, for those great moral teachings.

Catch 22 of course being that the gist of the passage isn't actually about birth control as much as it is about a man refusing to do his familial duty out of spite for his late sibling. Of course, that doesn't stop people from claiming it refers to birth control.

renegade7:
What do birth control and homosexuality have to do with religion?

They don't have anything to do with religion. Religion doesn't have a single position on any particular topic.

Something about the Bible saying how such things are wrong... but it was written ages ago, so...

Lilani:
but Jesus taught only love and kindness regardless of all that

He said to follow the old testament to the letter of the law, did he not?

"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

&

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."

-Jesus' words in Matthew.

CrazyGirl17:
Something about the Bible saying how such things are wrong... but it was written ages ago, so...

The Bible says absolutely nothing about birth control (it didn't exist back then) and has only a few very short passages dealing with homosexuality- of those, most come from the OT and have been grossly misrepresented by modern Christians.

Katatori-kun:

The Bible says absolutely nothing about birth control (it didn't exist back then)

Of course birth control existed; Kahun Gynaecological Papyrus. Funnily enough it's also the oldest known medical text in the world.

A man shall not lie with another man.
In the same part of the Bible as: Tie women to stools when on their period, don't touch them or let them touch anything at all.

You either need to listen to both or neither. Therefore many churches around the world pick one and discard the other... hypocrites.

-----------------------

Birth Control is based on the idea all life is sacred and one biblical text about not "spilling your seed on the ground". Science (ironically) gave the understanding religion commonly that each living sperm contained potential life... and so did each egg.

Therefore if all life is sacred isn't it murder to prevent or eject life before its born?

And here we have a clusterfuck of different idea's and princibles...
Catholic church is the easiest. Life begins at conception when the sperm enters the egg. Therefore... they are against condoms? More understandably against medical abortion.

--------------------------------------

Both of these are in the old testiment though and I personally think they're a load of bull >.> Along with the rest of the old testiment because if nothing else: it saeems to contradict most of what Jesus taught so... just discard it and listen to Jesus... and only Jesus, nothing from after 43 after his cruxifiction.

Even with that there is "reasonable doubt"(legal term applied) in the existance of God in my view so... my principle for life is: Be good, don't be a prick.
Hate gays and birth control? pppppppppffffffffffttttttttttt

BreakfastMan:
No idea where the birth control thing came in. No verse in the bible against that, from what I remember.

I think it has to do with an interpretation of that story where that one guy pulled out in order to not get that one woman pregnant.

It was a primitive form of "birth control", I think

Drawde:

Katatori-kun:

renegade7:
What do birth control and homosexuality have to do with religion?

They don't have anything to do with religion. Religion doesn't have a single position on any particular topic.

And white people didn't oppress black people.

White people didn't. Certain white people did.

If you want to have a useful discussion about a topic, you need to speak correctly. Drawing strokes so broad as to be meaningless isn't helpful.

In the OP, he explains how he is talking about the Church and Christianity. The thread title isn't strange or wrong.

A retraction in the text body does not make up for a misleading title just to grab attention.

Marik2:

BreakfastMan:
No idea where the birth control thing came in. No verse in the bible against that, from what I remember.

I think it has to do with an interpretation of that story where that one guy pulled out in order to not get that one woman pregnant.

It was a primitive form of "birth control", I think

I know that is the story that always gets brought up (both to this and the issue of masturbation), but it is quite obvious from it that the guy was punished because he disobeyed God's orders (have sex with this chick and get her preggo), not because he pulled out early. I still don't know why people get "birth control/masturbation is wrong!" from it. :/

renegade7:
It seems that no one is more outspoken about these things than the Church. What I just don't get though is what either of those things have to do with the story of how God created Man and Earth, nor what they have to do with any of the core moralities that Christianity or any religion for that matter attempts to teach us.

Note, Athiest, but with a pretty keen understanding of the faith (parents still made me go to church for a long time)

Well, Christian doctorine, based on their understanding of their "OT" says that same sex intercourse is bad. Pretty straight forward really. It's a direct order from god (as they understand it) so it IS a core belief.

As for Birth Control, isn't it just the catholics who are against that? In any event, they say its bad because we were ordered to be fruitful and multiply (and some site the "don't waste seed" story as well). Therefore a condom goes against those rules as it can not lead to procreation. Once again, pretty core as be fruitful was among one of the earliest laws from god.

As for "or any religion", please stick with Christianity if that's what you are discussing and don't assume that other religions feel the same way.

Blablahb:
Well, it says in the bible you have to murder all homosexual men you ever see... Plus of course it's different, and thus evil and ripe for bloody extermination according to the primitive religious mind. Nowadays we kind of don't like bloodbaths like that any more, so hating homosexuals is a good replacement if you happen to be a bigoted idiot. That part makes sense even if I'm strongly opposed to all of it.

As for birth control, I don't get that either. It's based on some vague verse with agricultural advice where it says not to throw seeds onto rocky soil because it won't grow, and someone, somehow, applied that to birth control.

Wait so they kill Gay men, not gay women?

TheDarkEricDraven:

Tree man:

TheDarkEricDraven:
God doesn't like X=X is bad. Obviously. It's not a matter of the story behind the bible.

Is it bad because God doesn't like it, or does God not like it because it's bad.

Both. Whatever God thinks is good is good and whatever God thinks is bad is bad. He's the ultimate authority to a lot of people. A bit hypocritical of me to criticize that, because I'm the same with my gods, but they aren't as arbitrary.

But then he had sex with a married woman to create Jesus, he murdered/ordered the murder of countless people for unclear reasons and he backed up the obvious corruption of the early Judeo church, so it does not seem that he thinks those things are bad.....

Warforger:

TheDarkEricDraven:

Tree man:

Is it bad because God doesn't like it, or does God not like it because it's bad.

Both. Whatever God thinks is good is good and whatever God thinks is bad is bad. He's the ultimate authority to a lot of people. A bit hypocritical of me to criticize that, because I'm the same with my gods, but they aren't as arbitrary.

But then he had sex with a married woman to create Jesus, he murdered/ordered the murder of countless people for unclear reasons and he backed up the obvious corruption of the early Judeo church, so it does not seem that he thinks those things are bad.....

got any sources for your claims or is it opinion?

I think the seriousness of a relationship and the "consecration" of it is something of an issue. Birth control means that it can happen without much purpose other than "You enjoy it" and leaves you to do it without much restriction, thus it can lead to sinful thinking. As opposed to abstinence until you choose to have a kid.

As for homosexuality, I think by the Bible it would be a violation of the natural order leading to unrestricted action(again), leading to sin(IE: There's a reason it's called Sodomy) blah blah blah.

Nothing, they're just jealous of all that gay sex. Also, I guess straight sex too. They just really want to have sex with someone they aren't married to...

Grandcrusader:
Wait so they kill Gay men, not gay women?

Basically, yes. It's probably because women were little more than slaves in the culture that produced the bible, and were forcibly married to whomever their father picked (and you could sell your daughter as a slave if we're to believe Exodus) so lesbian women choosing to be with women wouldn't have been a 'problem' in those times, as no woman was ever allowed to choose her partner in the first place.

Men of course could choose to a far greater extent, and could thus choose to be with men instead.

BreakfastMan:
No idea where the birth control thing came in. No verse in the bible against that, from what I remember.

As for the homosexuality thing, there are like 2-3 verse in the bible that can be interpreted as saying "God does not like homosexual sex". Pretty much it.

Pretty much many Christians find that birth controle is a form of abortion, and so on, or the prohibition of creating life at least. Others take umbrage to it as it is justifiably associated with fornication.

There are exceptions to the rule, such as a young woman needing to take birth control pills to regulate an irregular hormones.

Some very conservative Christians think that the only lifestyle acceptable to God is one where people are a)married and b) reproducing.

The catholic faith in particular believes that sex for pleasure is wrong so every intercourse must result in a child. Hence anti-birth control. Gay on the other hand is seen as sinful because it is impossible for children to be the result of their sex. By the same idea, it is also considered sinful for a man and woman to marry if they have no intention of having children (not being physically able to have children is a different matter).

Not all Christians think like this though. I am Christian but a huge fan and advocate of birth control and condoms. I also think that it is okay to life a lifestyle different from the marriage and kids route. Paul from the Bible agrees with me on this point but his idea of an alternative lifestyle is abstinence, but Paul was always a bit of a funny one.

renegade7:
What do birth control and homosexuality have to do with religion?

They are both things. Religions sometimes say things about things, with or without support from a foundational text.

i get they may be against someones personal religious beliefs. im totally fine with that, what ever floats your boat. but apparently live and let live is something alot of people cant comprehend and they desire to make everyone live by their particular religious beliefs even if others dont hold them.

frankly its rude

keiskay:

got any sources for your claims or is it opinion?

Errr the Bible, I read the 5 books of Moses and for the last two it's true and I don't really want to go back in that book again to find the stories but here are some summaries.

There was this woman that god had given to bear children with this one man, two other guys come in to do it but one guy can't seem to get a boner or his penis was too small to satisfy her so he gave up and masturbated (it's not too clear here) and then God killed him for that. Keep in mind I'm only guessing the text meant that, it could be because his penis was too small to satisfy the woman or that he knew that he couldn't do it because he knew god had destined her to be boned by someone else but the Bible is not clear on such matters.

For obvious corruption there is a story in the Bible where the Hebrews are coming back to Canaan and are busy in their whole ethnic cleansing campaign (because apparently God had to command them to do it as he couldn't do it himself which doesn't make any sense) where they attack this weak fort which should've been an easy battle but they get raped hard. Before the battle the church(or just priests I guess) had taken all the precious metals from the people and so Moses went back to God to ask him why they failed so hard and said it was because someone had not turned in their precious metals (keep in mind not only are they using the metals to build a huge lavish courtroom whose specifications were painfully described across 4 double passage pages with small font but the tribe in general isn't very well fed themselves seeing as there's another passage which it seems they ate bird shit, again it's not clear) so they find the guy, torture him until he confesses and shows them where he buried it (this must be where the Inquisition got it's tactics) then of course since Judaism is a peaceful forgiving religion he was allowed a chance at redemption....no I'm just kidding they took him and stoned his wife and all his possessions (of course in the context of the Bible anyone who is not an Adult non-slave male IS a possession). Then again why would an all powerful god give a shit if his holy courthouse is made of so many precious metals?