Here we go again. I'll get my graph. First off.
Which extreme? In trying to form a left wing economy free of class all that has happened is a dictatorship. Dictatorships take many forms, but communist ones are a weird mixture of left wing for the populance but with the additional tiers you have a sort of Fascist structure... but don't be fooled the incentives system common in Capitalism and associated with the right wing do not exist in too many forms and mostly loyalty/political backstabbing earns you position.
Anarchism doesn't exist :) We're humans and much like Karls Communism Humans break it, one screw loose and its broken. Anarchism is impossible to exist for long as it changes into something else very very fast. Lets take the Fallout example as this is a games site after all. Anarchism lasts for a very short amount of time. It either forms a Collective Culture: of we throw into pot, take what we need from pot (left) or a Dictatorship: I have the biggest stick, I now own this hill.
They are not the same thing. However the same means are used to impliment them, definately. On the extreme left: Everyone is treated the same, but our glorious leader (+ soldiers) are obviously a tad better. On the Extreme Right: You all exist for the Glorious Leaders benefit, if you do well for him you will be rewarded, if you are of no use you will be discarded. The amount of violence used against those who question the system: The same. | |
One problem that lies in doctors and janitors being paid the same is that if that were the case who the hell would spend 8-12 years working their asses off to get paid the same as the guy that shows up to sweep the floors? | |
Which is the main reason I believe in Free Market Capitalism :) I think in Area's of the world where Communism existed that if you were in a position such as Doctors that you would have certain benefits. The main one being good local housing near to a Hospital... and obviously bloody good care for your family in medical terms. Well to be fair one of communism's few successes was Cuba's health Care system which increased the general health of its citizens in leaps and bounds. This for example: Not bad. Of course America's averages are being dragged down by high homicide rates, Americans eating too much, walking too little and finally those too poor to afford it. Those who are fortunate and not bone-idle vaccumes I am sure are better off than the average Cuban. | |
I have no idea why this is constantly brought up in the debates about communism. In communism, only one bank account would exist, and everyone's income would be rolling into it, nobody would actually get paid because everything would go into the community account, which everyone would have access to to take whatever they need, and it would be sustainable because people would be a bunch of lovely chaps who work hard and play fair, not going their way to grab more than they need and to try and flaunt luxury. So yeah, not happening in this universe anytime soon. But, it's not about "doctors and garbage men being paid the same".
Yes, well, I'm pretty sure Robert Mugabe and his cronies are better off than the average Westerner, but that doesn't make Zimbabwe any less of a hellhole. In other words, it's not an apt comparison to put an average against a not-average when discussing the general statistics. | |
-double post, sorry.- | |
the saddest thing is that there is a real lack of representation in a lot of the world for social democracy. i think you would find a majority of people on this forum would be put into that category, yet even in a lot of europe they lack representation. | |
You've cited Karl... get real because we all know Karl was dreaming of an animal that is not human. Wage = Money = Representation of Resources Ration book or wage, your still getting the same shit for doing a different job. Someone doing a back breaking, tedious job in a factory will wonder why this other guy is doing an easy but tedious job but they earn the same. Whoever thought it could work was mad, with their heart in the right place.
That critizm was mostly to fend off patriotic Americans who'd complain about being 2 ranks above Cuba in health as an average. | |
Erm, that's not how communism works. There is no "communal bank account", it works how old-timey villages worked. You work at what you're good at (say, fixing up sick people) and others work at what they're good at (say, sowing clothes) and everyone just does their job and everything gets done. At least, that's how pure communism is supposed to work. Stalinism and Maoism and other authoritarian versions of communism work quite differently. Sadly, the only major examples of communism come from those corrupt sources, and few look at the good examples. (For example, early Christians formed communes that were communistic in all but name, and those worked out quite well until they were fed to lions.)
Well, for one you aren't paid at all, you just get what you need. And you would only do it if you wanted to and were good at it, not because of the prestige and power and money you get from the job.[1] The idea is that everyone does their part, and everyone works to help each other (and through Enlightened Self-interest they help themselves). [1] Because you don't get money and power from it, you see. | |
This is actually a pretty common idea in regards to the practical application of political ideology. We have found out that in practice the extreme right and extreme left end up being pretty similar to each other. Under either system the result is a small number of ruling elite controlling the state, suppressing the rights of the people. The only difference is economic policy, but in terms of governance they are the same. | |
You can display the political spectrum as a circle, a sphere, a 4-dimensional object, or whatever you want, but I'll always find it easier displayed either as a line or a 2d chart. Being circular implies that only left & right matters, whereas the former options allow several of the most options to be compiled & the party placed appropriately, just like in Commando96's graph. | |
Someone who wants to heal people? Why do you think little kids fantasize about becoming doctors? There are other motivators than how much you're paid. Besides, being a janitor is hard work, and you have to take a lot of shit from people who keep treating menial labor as some sort of punishment, or failure.
Well put. Cheers. | |
I do have a few problems with this graph. How are they judging between the "right and left?" If they are judging the right and left as economic freedom, than fascism and Nazism DON'T fit into that. Tradition vs. change? It doesn't really fit either. Also, all Anarchism doesn't fit on the political left (unless were going with the "tradition vs. change") with such systems as "anachro capitalism" (or as they like to call themselves, Statelessism) were there is no government and the entire system works on capitalism and exchange. One also has to wonder where you would put things such as monarchy, or Signapore where it is as close to complete free market is in a not so free nation. | |
... control economies are not exclusive to the left wing. If you want to debate that further, resurect my thread and I'll happily discuss Germany and Italy with you.
Anarchism has never existed for long. It immediately changes into something else. Therefore if in theory if it is to exist it would be in the form of a tribal collective rule, no laws as its a collection of families and everyone thinks of eachother. Anarchism else merely is a breeding ground for the guy with the biggest stick to form a dictatorship.
Monarchy? Singapore... Looking at economic Data I'd place it, in its current format around about on Par with the Republicans in terms of left and right. It has the no.1 world ranking for ease of business which frankly is better than the US but you can't get much more right wing economically without being biased. Thats first impressions from Wikipedia however. I wouldn't be confident enoug to stick it on there. I haven't studied Singapore Government and Politics... but I have studied enough economics (and a high school geography lesson or two) about the economy they have set up. Doesn't seem to have become effected by American style Corportism... well damn... I like 'em already, no favourtism, via pollitically allowed corruption bullshit. -------------------------------- Well done Sir! You've massnaged to dodge the OP completely :) | |
I think the problem is more that a single spectrum isn't useful for putting complicated things like political ideologies in. | |
That graph is utterly incorrect. Libertarian is authoritarian. Libertarians in large numbers support forcing religion onto people for one thing. They're anti-secular, anti-liberal and in favour of several draconic measures that drastically reduce people's freedom. Liberalism is the opposite of authoritarianism. Also it's rather suspicious that they place the UK's Tories as being more authoritarian than the Tea Party, which is a full blown fascist movement according to any definition of fascism ever conceived. Last time I checked, the Tories didn't consider women to be mere slaves and government property, and neither do they openly believe in racism, whereas anything south of Texas is the incarnation of satan himself according to the 'Dey took ur obs!'-mob that populates the Tea Party.
No, fascism is just nationalism plus a strong care for the collective over the individual. That's why for instance most anti-abortion politicians are fascists, and all fascists are anti-abortion. Your definition can apply to anything, from a strongly unregulated free market like the present day US, to the Soviet Union, to some tribe in which the priest and king get all the riches. | |
I'm not sure I do any more. It's just competing interests fighting over who has power using whatever philosophical justifications they care to muster. Some thing that state officials should have power, some think that corporate officials should have power, some thing that people should. Really, though, it's still a fight between those at the top of the pyramid and those at the bottom. It's just that now the pyramid had more than one point. | |
Might be why I wrapped up the post with "So yeah, not happening in this universe anytime soon". | |
Signapore is an interesting mix of a meritocracy and "democracy," dominated by a single party for most of the nation's existence. However, it also has a LOT of rules, which was the heaviest users of the death penalty vs. percentage of population, and all rights are limited by the constitution itself (and not the "yell fire in a movie theater" kind of way, they have power to regulate what is in those theaters). It is an interesting place, if nothing else. There are plenty of small political oddities that make it hard to fit on the chart. Monaco, a city state that is under the protection of France, and uses the same coin, is a constitutional monarchy where the monarch still has some power. However, it also lives on it's casino industry, and has no income taxes, so it's placement on Libertarism vs. Authortarianism is a bit wonky. A similar one is Liechtenstein, state under the protection of Switzerland, another constitutional monarch has such low taxes that it has more companies than PEOPLE. And that isn't even going into where older forms go. Where would you put tribalism, or more confederate (not like the south in the civil war, more like Belgium when it was the seventeen provinces, or modern day Switzerland to a lesser degree) where each state is almost a nation itself with a VERY weak federal government or Republics that didn't have direct elections like American before the 17th amendment? We can also debate weather the fascists were politically "Left" or politically "Right," (although I will mention that Hitler's first party was called the National Socialist German Workers Party, and trying to place any kind of label on him when the guy contradicted himself on every point besides not liking Jews very much maybe beyond the capabilities of the graph), but I think my point that the graph has some issues has been made. | |
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When we think about politics, we see two clear sides, the left. I am arguing that extreme versions of each side results in the same system as an extreme version of the other. In other words, the political spectrum is circular and not linear.
The left wing side of politics stands for things such as feminism and classlessness. In socialism and communism, people earn the same amounts of money for whatever occupation they do. Leftist ideologies, above all, believe that everyone is equal. Therefore, they explain that the differences in success between people is due to the environment and arbitrary distinctions about who is contributing more to society. They argue that janitors and doctors have both done their best and have both spent the same amount of time working for the betterment of society, so they deserve to make equal amounts of money. However, a powerful government is needed to ensure that this process continues, because otherwise people will find ways to make more money for themselves.
The right wing side of politics believes in a system that rewards you depending on how much you contribute to society. As such, capitalism and fascism is right wing. What this means is, whoever is the best at succeeding has more power, and the ability to accrue wealth and power is the system by which contribution to society is measured. This is why right-winged people explain that the genetics is the reason why differences in success and classes exist.
Extreme left wing politics is fascist: In a left wing society, the government needs so much power to redistribute wealth they have the power and freedom to do whatever they want to anyone else. Hmm, this reminds me of something... oh that's right, fascism!. They need extreme control over people to ensure everyone earns the same much.
Extreme right wing politics is communistic: The person who can make the most people follow them has the most power and freedom to do what they want - that is the basis of fascism. As I explained earlier, people in the right wing believe the differences in success between people is caused by genetics, and that freedom in accruing wealth and power is the way to decide who has better genes. To accrue this power, people have to manipulate others more and more until they have extreme control over other people so no-one can undermine their own power. They have to keep everyone else on the same level, earning the same much so that no-one can challenge them. Just like an extreme left political system.
...
So yeah, I guess what I'm saying in this wall of text is that communism and fascism result in the same thing, and it's the reason why I believe in center-wing politics (a balance between both sides). Thoughts? My political beliefs aren't set in stone haha, I just thought of this recently. I'm sure you guys will have some pretty valid criticisms.